Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Dalek_Kolt]

I knew about Dragon Quest through Brawl In The Family.
http://brawlinthefamily.keenspot.com/comic/113-prodigalson/
Man I miss it.

 

[Fenriraga]

I knew about Dragon Quest through Brawl In The Family.
http://brawlinthefamily.keenspot.com/comic/113-prodigalson/
Man I miss it.

Saaame. Smash has gotten so much crazier since it ended, I'd love to see how it could evolve with it.

Ah well, at least Matt is still around and doing other things.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I remember Dragon Quest because DQ 8 got a pretty big marketing push when it first came over the UK and DQ 9 got a lot of pushing from Official Nintendo Magazine.

And I remembered Fatal Fury from the Wii Virtual Console days.

 

[MooMew64]

Again, it's still super ironic to me that we still argue about relevancy and popularity when Sakurai himself said recently "Nah man I just care if they're fun".

This fanbase is just always gonna be a certain way, eh?

 

[JustMyself13]

Again, it's still super ironic to me that we still argue about relevancy and popularity when Sakurai himself said recently "Nah man I just care if they're fun".

This fanbase is just always gonna be a certain way, eh?

I personally believe that relevancy does matter to a degree when it comes to DLC, as its ultimate goal is to maintain the playerbase while selling a reasonable amount. A character so obscure that only a small handful would know about like Plok seems unlikely to be prioritized over someone more relevant while still being fun. If Sakurai didn’t pick Takamaru due to his obscurity, relevancy definitely plays some kind of role.

EDIT: “It’s more important that a character is fun to play, not just recognizable” does not imply that relevancy is unimportant, only that fun takes higher priority.

 

[BernkastelWitch]

Again, it's still super ironic to me that we still argue about relevancy and popularity when Sakurai himself said recently "Nah man I just care if they're fun".

This fanbase is just always gonna be a certain way, eh?

Some people want to enforce fan rules to rule out the competition despite Sakurai broke a ton of these rules alone in just Smash Ultimate.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I knew about Dragon Quest through Brawl In The Family.
http://brawlinthefamily.keenspot.com/comic/113-prodigalson/
Man I miss it.

Yeah, growing up I use to look forward to every Tuesday and Thursday when a new comic would release. Also I believe Matt has a Smashboards account here.

I learned about Dragon Quest through BitF, although I didn’t realize how big it was until about a year ago.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

I don't think I have too much to add on the discussion of popularity and obscurity of prospective newcomers, either in general or regarding Touhou specifically. While I do think a certain level of notoriety is necessary for becoming a smash character, Sakurai has said "not just anyone can become a smash character" years ago, and notoriety is probably more useful in a dlc cycle than base game, based upon Sakurai's recent comments in the Terry presentation I'd guess popularity or perceived iconicness is a lower priority than most had thought. Likewise, I don't think anyone has made a thoroughly convincing argument as to Touhou's popularity, either as a niche novelty or a worldwide phenomena, and I myself struggle to better quantify it. Part of that is due to its nature as a series, being independently distributed for PC either in person, on merchant websites, or downloaded as a ROM, with international releases and translations handled by fans. As well, I generally don't think Touhou fans and hardcore Smash speculators swim in the same circles, but with no way to definitively prove that I'll leave it there.

What I will say is it seems patently fallacious to compare Touhou to NES/SNES one-offs when Touhou has had roughly annual releases since 2002 and just had a new game release in August with another announced for next year AND ports of an official game coming to PS4 and Switch. And that's just official games, that is made by the original creator.

 

[SKX31]

Again, it's still super ironic to me that we still argue about relevancy and popularity when Sakurai himself said recently "Nah man I just care if they're fun".

This fanbase is just always gonna be a certain way, eh?

I should note though, that we've seen Atlus', Rare's and SNK's main characters join, and out of those B-K were the only one definetely out of the "relevancy" spectrum. All of those three were likewise popular in one circle or another, so it's not like that's a non-factor either. I'm leaving out Hero because DQ is DQ, both fitting the "popular" and "relevant" criteria in Japan by a mile.

That said, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he meant that comment as a small Take That towards Tencent / other big companies like EA. Hardcore speculating here, but if Sakurai / Furukawa recieve all these offers from third party companies, there's bound to be quite a few character suggestions that mention "relevancy" and "popular in-". Perhaps even first. That's gotta be really irritating for a guy who by all accounts prizes design and fun first and foremost.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Some people want to enforce fan rules to rule out the competition despite Sakurai broke a ton of these rules alone in just Smash Ultimate.

Yeah but those were special exceptions.
Also they cameo'd in a noncanon spinoff title on a Nintendo handheld that nobody played, Sakurai was clearly thinking about how Link of Remembrance or Jojo's High School Q were the lynchpin for their inclusion and NOT the impact their main game has had on the industry and an entire generation.

Seriously though, I think the ONLY fan rule to be shattered once and for all is the issue of size, and I think that's less to do with the fact that scale in Smash is absolutely FLICKED and more with how Andross and Mother Brain don't have big enough fanbases to challenge the idea that they could be put in Smash.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Again, it's still super ironic to me that we still argue about relevancy and popularity when Sakurai himself said recently "Nah man I just care if they're fun".

This fanbase is just always gonna be a certain way, eh?

Shouldn't that had been broken anyways since?

 

[MooMew64]

Shouldn't that had been broken anyways since?

I mean, Melee adding in a franchise that wasn't even in the west yet () is what makes me think the "rule" never really had any leg to stand on in the first place.

People also treat Sakurai's word as unflinching law when, like most human beings, he changes his mind about things all the time.

 

[Freduardo]

No one ever talks about him, but the indie character I’d want is CommanderVideo. I believe he was the first indie representation in Smash Bros, as he got a trophy in Smash 4, and his games practically defined Wiiware. It would be cool to get another flat character based around sprite art as well.

He moved off sprites in runner 3.

But it would be coop to see a representative of the “endless runner“ genre, especially if they could work in Video’s innate rhythm element.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Smash fans are always stupid, literally 2 months ago we had people get irrationally upset that the franchise that has inspired Smash from 64 all and still does to his day possibly getting involved and now I even got to see someone cry about how unfair it is that said character got more love than their favourite dead franchise which is already in the game

 

[DarthEnderX]

I've been playing video games for 20 years and I'd literally never heard of Dragon Quest before the E3 reveal. It's extremely niche in the west.

Yeah...either you've somehow avoided it by pure luck, like a blind person wandering through a mine field. Or you're lying.

In my opinion, I think that worst case scenario, we get 5 more fighters after the first pass. But best case scenario, they keep doling out DLC until the Switch dies, which could be 20+.

No. The BEST case scenario is that when the Super Switch comes out, we get Smash Ultimate Deluxe and we keep getting DLC BEYOND the death of the Switch.

I don't bet on Nintendo doing that, but I could see them give a free character to start the second pass.

If Nintendo gives out free characters, it'll be Echoes.

 

[JustMyself13]

He moved off sprites in runner 3.

But it would be coop to see a representative of the “endless runner“ genre, especially if they could work in Video’s innate rhythm element.

I feel he would be based more on the BIT.TRIP games as a whole, which is why I said sprites rather than only Runner, as he was always much more than that.

 

[Deleted member]

Smash fans are always stupid, literally 2 months ago we had people get irrationally upset that the franchise that has inspired Smash from 64 all and still does to his day possibly getting involved and now I even got to see someone cry about how unfair it is that said character got more love than their favourite dead franchise which is already in the game

If anything, SNK got too much music. One stage cannot and should not be the only one with 50 great SNK songs.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If anything, SNK got too much music. One stage cannot and should not be the only one with 50 great SNK songs.

Clearly this means we can resolve the issue by having more SNK stages

 

[Deleted member]

Clearly this means we can resolve the issue by having more SNK stages

"Genius idea, Sakurai! I knew sacrificing Mai's soul to the Music Gods was a good idea."

 

[MooMew64]

Smash fans are always stupid, literally 2 months ago we had people get irrationally upset that the franchise that has inspired Smash from 64 all and still does to his day possibly getting involved and now I even got to see someone cry about how unfair it is that said character got more love than their favourite dead franchise which is already in the game

I mean, everyone's got likes and dislikes, that doesn't make them "stupid". Bit harsh there.

I won't lie, I personally think Terry was a boring inclusion. Does that mean I think he's bad and people who like him are bad? Nah. I'm stoked for those who really love him.

The biggest problem with this fanbase is everyone's need to dump on each others franchises and play pointless superiority games with abstract concepts of "importance" and "history" as ammunition for pointless arguments. Just let games be fun is what I'd say to both sides.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"Genius idea, Sakurai! I knew sacrificing Mai's soul to the Music Gods was a good idea."

The stage's gimmick is that Mai's there before she gets ****ing shanked by Orochi Leona

 

[DarthEnderX]

Again, it's still super ironic to me that we still argue about relevancy and popularity when Sakurai himself said recently "Nah man I just care if they're fun".

Because that's not really what he said.

He said "it's more important that a character is fun to play, not just recognizable".

Two things about that statement.

A. It's still important that a character be recognizable. It's just more important that it be fun to play.

B. You don't know how much less important being recognizable is. If being fun to play is 10/10 of important. Being recognizable could be a 5/10. Or it could be a 9/10.

Everyone is treating that statement like he's saying "I don't care about popularity at all and I'm gonna put complete nobodies in Smash!" and that's NOT what he said.

If anything, SNK got too much music. One stage cannot and should not be the only one with 50 great SNK songs.

That's an issue that should be resolved on a systemic level, by not limiting music to certain stages.

 

[Deleted member]

The stage's gimmick is that Mai's there before she gets ****ing shanked by Orochi Leona

Mai's dead body becomes an interactable projectile similar to the Mario Bros stage enemies. For some reason, CERO didn't approve of it originally.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I mean, everyone's got likes and dislikes, that doesn't make them "stupid". Bit harsh there.

I won't lie, I personally think Terry was a boring inclusion. Does that mean I think he's bad and people who like him are bad? Nah. I'm stoked for those who really love him.

The biggest problem with this fanbase is everyone's need to dump on each others franchises and play pointless superiority games with abstract concepts of "importance" and "history" as ammunition for pointless arguments. Just let games be fun is what I'd say to both sides.

I think an even bigger issue is that you can give the fanbase exactly what they want and then they're all "Wowee! This is perfect, my favourite feels like they fit right in!" But as soon as you do something that doesn't cater exclusively to them they lose their **** and whine how their favourite didn't get enough love

 

[Deleted member]

I think an even bigger issue is that you can give the fanbase exactly what they want and then they're all "Wowee! This is perfect, my favourite feels like they fit right in!" But as soon as you do something that doesn't cater exclusively to them they lose their **** and whine how their favourite didn't get enough love

The only fanbase who has any serious claim to this argument is Final Fantasy. Every other fanbase recognized just sound entitled to me (though I'd kill for more Persona music).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The only fanbase who has any serious claim to this argument is Final Fantasy. Every other fanbase recognized just sound entitled (though I'd kill for more Persona music).

Tbf Joker's initial announcement included a song that isn't in Smash so that's understandable

 

[MooMew64]

Because that's not really what he said.

He said "it's more important that a character is fun to play, not just recognizable".

Two things about that statement.

A. It's still important that a character be recognizable. It's just more important that it be fun to play.

B. You don't know how much less important being recognizable is. If being fun to play is 10/10 of important. Being recognizable could be a 5/10. Or it could be a 9/10.

Everyone is treating that statement like he's saying "I don't care about popularity at all and I'm gonna put completely nobodies in Smash!" and that's NOT what he said.

That in of itself is reading into what he said. I'm simply taking his words at face value; I don't think everything the man does has some deeper or alternate secret reasoning. Being able to recognize a character is obviously a factor, but probably not as a huge of one as some believe, bar a few extreme examples.

Everything is guessing on our part. None of us can definitely say yes or no because we don't make the game.

 

[DarthEnderX]

That in of itself is reading into what he said. I'm simply taking his words at face value; I don't think everything the man does has some deeper or alternate secret reasoning. Being able to recognize a character is obviously a factor, but probably not as a huge of one as some believe, bar a few extreme examples.

Everything is guessing on our part. None of us can definitely say yes or no because we don't make the game.

I agree with all that. I just rankle when people point to that statement and say "See! Popularity doesn't matter! James Pond actually has a shot!".

 

[Lamperouge]

You did remember they already confirmed a wave 2 right after they revealed terry right?

I'm aware that additional DLC was confirmed, yes.

There's no guarantee that we're getting another full set of characters like the first fighter's pass, though.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I have a feeling that IF there is a second pass they'll reveal the details of which along with the final character of this pass.

I don't think that they will do a pass as Sakurai seemed really uncomfortable with the idea of buying the whole pass before the public knew what was in it. Felt like a decision from on high.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

The only fanbase who has any serious claim to this argument is Final Fantasy. Every other fanbase recognized just sound entitled (though I'd kill for more Persona music).

What about fans of characters that are echoes/clones?
I'd like to think putting a character in without giving them anything unique would be grounds for complaint about the treatment of their franchise without being entitled, especially if they have a moveset in their home series that could have been translated into Smash but just wasn't.

 

[osby]

What about fans of characters that are echoes/clones?
I'd like to think putting a character in without giving them anything unique would be grounds for complaint about the treatment of their franchise without being entitled, especially if they have a moveset in their home series that could have been translated into Smash but just wasn't.

I mean, pretty much all clones (please no Ganondorf argument) simply wouldn't get into Smash if they weren't clones so it feels unfruitful to complain about that.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What about fans of characters that are echoes/clones?
I'd like to think putting a character in without giving them anything unique would be grounds for complaint about the treatment of their franchise without being entitled, especially if they have a moveset in their home series that could have been translated into Smash but just wasn't.

That's a specific character, not "WAAAAAH WE ONLY GOT THIS AMOUNT OF OVERALL CONTENT MEANWHILE FRANCHISES I DON'T LIKE GET A SIMILAR AMOUNT OR MORE WAAAAAAAAAAH"

 

[Guybrush20X6]

What about fans of characters that are echoes/clones?
I'd like to think putting a character in without giving them anything unique would be grounds for complaint about the treatment of their franchise without being entitled, especially if they have a moveset in their home series that could have been translated into Smash but just wasn't.

Of the Echos currently in the game, I think Ken was done justice, Richter effectively is sharing a Slot with Simon due to both having half a moveset between them, Lucina and Chrom not having too much to work with given how their series works and Daisy and Dark Pit making sense but considering Luigi is practically a different character from Mario now, feels underwhelming.

Dark Samus is the biggest standout in all of this as she is meant to be Phazon itself channeled through one of Samus's suits, not a straight up evil clone.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What gets me about Dark Samus is that despite how I got over how she's an echo, we didn't get a single battle theme she has. She's literally the Metroid Prime and we never got any of her boss themes? ****ing wild

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

I have a feeling that IF there is a second pass they'll reveal the details of which along with the final character of this pass.

I don't think that they will do a pass as Sakurai seemed really uncomfortable with the idea of buying the whole pass before the public knew what was in it. Felt like a decision from on high.

That's probably why Piranha Plant was a preorder bonus; It's pretty skeevy nowadays with EA and other companies and probably didn't sit well with Sakurai, so he compromised by essentially holding ransom to a character NOBODY would give a damn about.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That's probably why Piranha Plant was a preorder bonus; It's pretty skeevy nowadays with EA and other companies and probably didn't sit well with Sakurai, so he compromised by essentially holding ransom to a character NOBODY would give a damn about.

Ok but Plant was meant for the basegame as seen with multiple things like the Guidance and Pokemon Trainer Classic Route

 

[Guybrush20X6]

What gets me about Dark Samus is that despite how I got over how she's an echo, we didn't get a single battle theme she has. She's literally the Metroid Prime and we never got any of her boss themes? ****ing wild

I think that was thanks to giveing the music team freedom to chose what songs to remix.

All went and hung out with the cool kids (Mega Man and Castlevania). Still doesn't explain why none of her themes were ported though.

 

[SKX31]

I have a feeling that IF there is a second pass they'll reveal the details of which along with the final character of this pass.

I don't think that they will do a pass as Sakurai seemed really uncomfortable with the idea of buying the whole pass before the public knew what was in it. Felt like a decision from on high.

It'd be hard to pin down exactly who, but I feel that Furukawa's the safest bet. He's not only Nintendo's President, but also Ultimate's Excecutive Producer. Outside of him, I could see the producers and general management also being involved in making that decision.

That's probably why Piranha Plant was a preorder bonus; It's pretty skeevy nowadays with EA and other companies and probably didn't sit well with Sakurai, so he compromised by essentially holding ransom to a character NOBODY would give a damn about.

AFAIK Plant wasn't finished on time anyway, so I'm not too sure how much of a factor that was. The compromise was likely Sakurai getting absolute final say in exactly who (as opposed to Corrin). And Furukawa's evidently more than okay with that, the results have been splendid it seems.

Aside from that... just came up with a little forum game:

Suppose Kirby's Inhale got a buff, namely that he gains the opponent's last used B move (Side-B, Up-B, Down-B, Back-B in Terry's Case, or Neutral B) with the same hats. Which move would be the most fun to use as Kirby?

 

[BZL8]

Behold the one true Square-Enix Mario rep.

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