Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[MooMew64]

Because I'm out of the loop of all this and know jack, how did Touhou impact gaming?

It solidified the bullet hell genre and influenced a bunch of games. Most notably Undertale. Also pretty notable in early internet culture.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Put Reimu in Smash.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

As I understand it, TouHou was Japan's big indie hit of the early 00's and solidified the bullet hell sub-genre of shooters where the emphasis was on outmanoeuvring the glut of bullets the enemies put out.

It's only just started coming westwards with console releases, usually the spin-offs.

 

[MooMew64]

Put Reimu in Smash.

Best post in this whole exchange TBH.

 

[N3ON]

DQ and Touhou are in the same boat as far as where the recognition skews. When you quantify that recognition, Touhou capsizes in DQ's wake.

 

[Inoj]

I remember Touhou being pretty big on the circles I hanged around in.

A common nicknames for /tg/ was /Touhou games/ due to all the Touhou fans over there (and replacing pirated RPG books with Touhou doujins of a certain nature)

Remember Touhou Power Cards?

Even the official WotC forums had Touhou hijacks.

 

[perfectchaos83]

I don't get it. Can you go into more detail as to how it impacted Undertale and why gaming amateurs making their games mattered here?

The basic gameplay of Undertale in Battle is basically Touhou lite. The Design of Toriel and the Final boss (and, loosely, the Deltarune itself) were both inspired by the first Final Boss Touhou had, Sariel. Even the music is influenced from Touhou, the easiest one to notice is "Battle Against a True Hero". There's a lot more than that, but this is what Toby Said:

I've been a fan of Touhou since I was 10 years old... It's quite a big inspiration to me both musically and gameplay-wise, so if you enjoyed the bullet patterns in UNDERTALE, please check it out sometime. ヨホ

— tobyfox (@tobyfox) May 23, 2018

As for the amateurs, that's more a "Milage may vary" thing. It's important to the doujin industy as it's basically a Free Use IP to do what you want with, so people just starting and selling their games at Comiketuse Touhou both as a means to sell their game and practice their own work. Of note, Former Mario Kart Double Dash developers are developing a Touhou racing game on the Switch.

 

[Deleted member]

It solidified the bullet hell genre and influenced a bunch of games. Most notably Undertale. Also pretty notable in early internet culture.

The basic gameplay of Undertale in Battle is basically Touhou lite. The Design of Toriel and the Final boss (and, loosely, the Deltarune itself) were both inspired by the first Final Boss Touhou had, Sariel. Even the music is influenced from Touhou, the easiest one to notice is "Battle Against a True Hero". There's a lot more than that, but this is what Toby Said:

I've been a fan of Touhou since I was 10 years old... It's quite a big inspiration to me both musically and gameplay-wise, so if you enjoyed the bullet patterns in UNDERTALE, please check it out sometime. ヨホ

— tobyfox (@tobyfox) May 23, 2018

As for the amateurs, that's more a "Milage may vary" thing. It's important to the doujin industy as it's basically a Free Use IP to do what you want with, so people just starting and selling their games at Comiketuse Touhou both as a means to sell their game and practice their own work. Of note, Former Mario Kart Double Dash developers are developing a Touhou racing game on the Switch.

Alright. I get it now. Mainly it's like a the revolutionary for bullet hells. Bullet Hells aren't my thing, but the concept of bullet hells themselves span across many games, so that's cool.

 

[GKMLTTSB]

Seeing Touhou treated as such an unknown feels... strange.

It's understandable that most people wouldn't exactly be well-versed in it or know specifics, but to have not encountered it at all? Maybe the internet has changed... :-(

Per Haruka... iDOLM@STER is incredibly niche in the western world, which is a shame. That's part of why I want a rep in. It would also be incredibly fun and different to anything we have right now, but if it can help build a greater following here, that'd be swell.
It is absolutely not a small thing in Japan though. Still niche to the otaku market, but the series makes major bank.

Okay on another note, which unrepresented series/game in Smash do you want music from? Since this is all hypothetical the music tracks don't have to come with a character or anything.

At the risk of going overboard with media links again, I'll keep it to one song per game/series.

Spoiler: Muzak

FFXIV:
Warning: Stormblood Spoilers Within (SE requires FFXIV music to accompany gameplay footage)

Touhou:

Phantasy Star Online:

The Great Giana Sisters:

Parasite Eve:

Silent Hill:

And I could go on, but in the interest of brevity (and laziness), I'll leave it at that.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm going to be honest with everyone. Everyone here has recently been telling me how big if a deal Touhou is. I've never seen that with my own eyes though. The fact that I hadn't heard if it until, not only Smash speculation, not just Smash Ultimate speculation, but this particular Smash Ultimate DLC speculation tells me that it's not as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. Call me crazy but literally any other game I had heard in passing and had an idea of their legacy before this DLC cycle.

Just from that observation, I think people are vastly overplaying the Touhou series in general.

People here overplay a lot of series, not hearing about a certain series doesn't make them less likely imo and hearing about certain series doesn't make them more likely.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay on another note, which unrepresented series/game in Smash do you want music from? Since this is all hypothetical the music tracks don't have to come with a character or anything.

Castlevania Chronicles. But we already have too many songs, and at least for me, we need to reduce.

 

[KatKit]

Not to piss off Lesley by speaking out against a female character, but Arle would be about as close to a "wasted slot" of a character that I can imagine.
I'd literally rather have this:
O-Tetrimino Head
T- Tetrimino Shoulders
I-Tetrimino Torso
S and Z-Tetrimino Arms
J and L-Tetrimino Legs
Call it "Tetris Man".

Sadly, you must know little to nothing about Arle to come that conclusion, but Smash could change that like it did for those who knew nothing about SNK.

 

[TriggerX]

After watching a trailer for Doom :Eternal in the Xbox store, it’s hard to believe anything Doom would be present in Smash.

Bayonetta And Metal Gear Solid are violent series as well, but it’s nowhere near Doom in that regard.

If they have a problem with Mai, but not Doom, I’d be surprised.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

No! Don't bring up the viol-

Its too late...-_-

 

[Droodle]

Doom = Bad. Therefore only bad boys and girls like Doom, so it can't be in Smash.

I'm being sarcastic.

 

[Deleted member]

surprised

Well...me too. I mean, violence and sexual stuff are different debates entirely, so...

 

[Deleted member]

That feel when Mai cheers Terry on:

 

[Lionfranky]

If this is how we react to Touhou, I can't imagine how Japan would react to Hollow Knight or Master Chief.

At least, Master Chief has reputation there. He is not completely obsecure in Japan like Touhou in west.

 

[TheTuninator]

At least, Master Chief has reputation there. He is not completely obsecure in Japan like Touhou in west.

Touhou's following in the West is a cult following, to be sure, but it's still very real. I wouldn't undervalue it.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

At least, Master Chief has reputation there. He is not completely obsecure in Japan like Touhou in west.

Obscure huh?

Spoiler

Look at the view counts for these English titled videos and tell me that's obscure.
This is just music, say what you want about how many are playing the games, but the internet culture behind Touhou is enormous, with the highest viewed video reaching 24 million views and several others of these videos having 8 million. If you look down in the comments of each of the videos, most of them are in English as well, so it's not just a large Japanese audience like you might think.

 

[Ivander]

While I don't deny that Touhou may not be known much in the West, I'm more than positive people in the West have seen or heard something inspired by or related to Touhou, whether it'd be their music or videos from Nicovideo. And I'm positive alot of people here have seen this video once in their time here.

 

[NoBS]

At least, Master Chief has reputation there. He is not completely obsecure in Japan like Touhou in west.

Master chief is obscure there lol. Touhou is also obscure here. A lot of people don’t know who either are. I doubt either are coming

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

I think another thing to consider though is that touhou may have significance as a series and has history, but Reimu as a character simply doesn’t. I know that Sakurai said that being fun to play is just as important as being recognizable, but we all know very well that the overwhelming majority of the fan base would have no clue of who in the world Reimu is, not to mention the more casual fans. I just have trouble seeing her as a safe bet to sell more dlc

 

[Rie Sonomura]

aren't there a couple of Touhou spinoff games on Switch?

 

[Deleted member]

aren't there a couple of Touhou spinoff games on Switch?

https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/touhou-sky-arena-matsuri-climax-switch/
Here's one. I'm on phone now.

https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/touhou-genso-wanderer-reloaded-switch/

 

[TheTuninator]

I think another thing to consider though is that touhou may have significance as a series and has history, but Reimu as a character simply doesn’t. I know that Sakurai said that being fun to play is just as important as being recognizable, but we all know very well that the overwhelming majority of the fan base would have no clue of who in the world Reimu is, not to mention the more casual fans. I just have trouble seeing her as a safe bet to sell more dlc

If she gets in, it'd absolutely be as a JP/Asia-centric rep. I don't think they'd have any trouble selling DLC of her, though. She has stronger moveset potential than most thanks to having a half-dozen fighting games, and compelling character design. I've never touched a DQ game in my life and had never even heard of the franchise before this summer, but I picked up Hero right away because he looked cool and his moveset had a lot of appeal. I imagine the same was true with many people who had never heard of Persona before seeing Joker's trailers.

Along the lines of what Sakurai observed, strong characters make good reps, and Touhou has a big enough fanbase to spark hype.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/touhou-sky-arena-matsuri-climax-switch/
Here's one. I'm on phone now.

https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/touhou-genso-wanderer-reloaded-switch/

the Sky Arena one looks fun, I might pick it up sometime

 

[JustMyself13]

Obscure huh?

Spoiler

Look at the view counts for these English titled videos and tell me that's obscure.
This is just music, say what you want about how many are playing the games, but the internet culture behind Touhou is enormous, with the highest viewed video reaching 24 million views and several others of these videos having 8 million. If you look down in the comments of each of the videos, most of them are in English as well, so it's not just a large Japanese audience like you might think.

It’s important to remember that the people watching these videos and playing Touhou games likely aren’t the same people who are going to both play Smash Bros. and buy the fighters pass. To the general audience of the fighters pass, a Touhou rep seems like a death sentence especially seeing the negative responses and retaliation against Terry and Hero in the US.

 

[Deleted member]

If she gets in, it'd absolutely be as a JP/Asia-centric rep. I don't think they'd have any trouble selling DLC of her, though. She has stronger moveset potential than most thanks to having a half-dozen fighting games, and compelling character design. I've never touched a DQ game in my life and had never even heard of the franchise before this summer, but I picked up Hero right away because he looked cool and his moveset had a lot of appeal. I imagine the same was true with many people who had never heard of Persona before seeing Joker's trailers

I see little to no problem with Reimu being the final character. Reimu has a big following over there, and backing from the Switch games I told Rie, those games can warrant her chances. And besides, Touhou is quite interesting for Smash. Her shrine maiden get-up looks unique in Smash, and having one playable is interesting too (Nakoruru would've fit this bill hadn't she be a Mii/Spirit)

 

[KillerCage]

Master chief is obscure there lol. Touhou is also obscure here. A lot of people don’t know who either are. I doubt either are coming

Didn't Sakurai play Halo 3?

 

[Deleted member]

Didn't Sakurai play Halo 3?

I don't know, but please read this link if you want more info. https://www.sourcegaming.info/2017/07/12/feelofamericangames/

 

[TheTuninator]

It’s important to remember that the people watching these videos and playing Touhou games likely aren’t the same people who are going to both play Smash Bros. and buy the fighters pass. To the general audience of the fighters pass, a Touhou rep seems like a death sentence especially seeing the negative responses and retaliation against Terry and Hero in the US.

This is pretty hyperbolic, honestly. Don't confuse the actions of a vocal internet minority with reality. Until we get the actual sales figures there's no way to know how DLC has performed.

 

[Lionfranky]

Obscure huh?

Spoiler

Look at the view counts for these English titled videos and tell me that's obscure.
This is just music, say what you want about how many are playing the games, but the internet culture behind Touhou is enormous, with the highest viewed video reaching 24 million views and several others of these videos having 8 million. If you look down in the comments of each of the videos, most of them are in English as well, so it's not just a large Japanese audience like you might think.

Undertale video got just as many views despite 2.8 million sales iirc.

Maybe, I worded wrong. 'Relatively' would've been better. It's kinda weird that there seems to be some kind of barrier when it comes to reputation.

Master chief is obscure there lol. Touhou is also obscure here. A lot of people don’t know who either are. I doubt either are coming

Not on level of obsecurity of Touhou in west. That's for sure.

 

[Deleted member]

Obscure huh?

Spoiler

Look at the view counts for these English titled videos and tell me that's obscure.
This is just music, say what you want about how many are playing the games, but the internet culture behind Touhou is enormous, with the highest viewed video reaching 24 million views and several others of these videos having 8 million. If you look down in the comments of each of the videos, most of them are in English as well, so it's not just a large Japanese audience like you might think.

This is gonna be another Hero/Terry scenario just watch

 

[GKMLTTSB]

I think another thing to consider though is that touhou may have significance as a series and has history, but Reimu as a character simply doesn’t. I know that Sakurai said that being fun to play is just as important as being recognizable, but we all know very well that the overwhelming majority of the fan base would have no clue of who in the world Reimu is, not to mention the more casual fans. I just have trouble seeing her as a safe bet to sell more dlc

If you're trying to sell DLC, the likelihood that members of a given fanbase will actually take interest in your product on the basis of the guest character must be considered in addition to the general notoriety of said character. Touhou fans will typically go wherever the Touhou goes.
'Waifu' series in general tend to have very dedicated fans willing to throw down money.

On the other hand, there are some series that are huge, but have fanbases that I wouldn't really see being enticed to flock to another game en masse simply due to a guest character and associated content being added. A lot of ultra-casual games, specifically.

Granted, there are obviously series that sit in the middle as well.

aren't there a couple of Touhou spinoff games on Switch?

Yeah. Burst Battle (meh) and Gensou Wanderer have physical releases, actually. The Gensou Wanderer sequel and Luna Nights are there as well. And a few others.
Antimony of Common Flowers is set to come out at some point, which will be the first official (though not mainline) Touhou game on Switch.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Well known two months ago

Apparently I had no idea bubble bobble is returning to the switch

So bub (that’s the green Dino’s name) for ultimate.

 

[TheTuninator]

This is gonna be another Hero/Terry scenario just watch

Seems like some people will always get salty if a series they don't know gets in, sadly. With that said, I'm pretty confident that the majority of the fanbase ends up evaluating a character on their actual merits. FE hadn't even released in the West before Melee but Marth and Roy ended up two of the most popular characters in that game, after all.

 

[N3ON]

I'm not sure some of those "Touhou isn't obscure" arguments are as compelling as you think if they revolve around the pervasiveness of meme songs and the presence of a fanbase on the internet. The former doesn't inherently correlate to knowledge over the actual series or its characters, and the latter is a fairly standard accomplishment.

Touhou definitely does have a cult fanbase in the west, but cult fanbases regularly go hand-in-hand with super niche material.

Didn't Sakurai play Halo 3?

Sakurai could list eight game developers born in 1970 off the top of his head, and can play Smash with like four controllers simultaneously. I don't think he's exactly a bastion of normality.

 

[Nemuresu]

After checking the SSB Wiki, I looked at all the absent third-party Mii Costumes so far:

*Mega Man X
*MegaMan.exe
*Monster Hunter
*Rathalos Armour Hunter
*Heihachi Mishima
*Lloyd Irving
*Gil
*Chocobo
*Geno

They're more than I originally thought, but honestly, outside of Geno, Heihachi and Lloyd, I don't see any of them becoming characters later on.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

It’s important to remember that the people watching these videos and playing Touhou games likely aren’t the same people who are going to both play Smash Bros. and buy the fighters pass. To the general audience of the fighters pass, a Touhou rep seems like a death sentence especially seeing the negative responses and retaliation against Terry and Hero in the US.

Regardless of whether those negative responses actually matter in the first place (they don't) and whether they're a vocal minority (most likely), all of the Fighter's Pass characters were decided ahead of time, so any perceived negative backlash against Terry and Hero would not have been seen when choosing FP5.

Undertale video got just as many views despite 2.8 million sales iirc.

Maybe, I worded wrong. 'Relatively' would've been better. It's kinda weird that there seems to be some kind of barrier when it comes to reputation.


Not on level of obsecurity of Touhou in west. That's for sure.

Are you actually trying to suggest that Undertale is obscure? After the reaction a simple Sans Mii Costume got?