Newbie Mafia 12 FMP Fumoffu!: Game over!

[#HBC | Dancer]

First thing you need to know, is that activity and discussion are very important to scumhunting. Get your scumpicks to talk. If you find something weak, post it, but use an FoS since it's weaker than a vote, but shows you are suspicious of them. Always speak your opinion, and look at people's posts, and look for intent. So far I already like your play because you do notice things that may not be right, and disagree. Spread out your accusations to 2-3 people, because this gives you more leads. Also pressure people you find haven't been pressured yet, because this way town can get info from everyone, and not just the popular choices. (Can't let scum breathe) If you really have to look hard for scummy intent, then there probably isn't any yet. Scum won't drop tells easily, you'll have to force them out as town. Again, get them to talk, and be wary of contradictions or intent from their reasoning. For example, do you feel JTB is genuinely posting thoughts about people? I feel as though he has parroted me a bit, for example, the thoughts on Soren coasting.

Okay, a lot of my post was basically going to be this, just with different wording.

Yes, you should pretty much always be pointing things out as soon as it happens. This is fundermental to disscusion. The only time I wouldn't recommend pointing something out is when you feel that the tell can go somewhere, and that you want to give the suspect more rope to act "naturally," without suspicion on them.

Also, asking others for thier thoughts is highly encouraged. This itself is also a fundermental of disscussion. It helps in several ways. It forces the people you ask to take a stance on things. Forcing people to take a stance on things is how town wins in the long term, due to, as Ran said, noticing contradictions and inner intent from their reasoning. By asking others for their thoughts, you are encouraging disscussion, and more disscussion makes reads on people more possible and reliable. Not only that, but it gives us a better read on the questionier themselve.

Also note that disscusion = scumhunting (usually).

I realize that a lot of the above paragraph is kind of generalized, so let me give an example on how questioning leads to more disscussion:

Say you question player y for a stance on player x. Now say player y acts funny towards this. Say he dodges the question, or all of the sudden attacks you. In anycase, he acted unnaturally. What do you make of this? Is he scummy now? Do you see a potiantial link between player x and y? ect.

As you can see, a whole new avenue of disscusion has openned (Note that it's usually not this obvious, this is just an example).

@Kuz: I'll rather wait until TBS answers me if that would be alright.

@Soup: lol, actually not gonna lie I was just fluffing.

@Gova: Could you expend on this?

Also, don't like the fact that he's complaining about JTB taking away my suppossed job compared to earlier because he was jokingly calling me scum for explaining things.

I'm not quite sure what you don't like about that.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

stated the two examples so everyone could know that either side is possible

so ran, which side are you playing today?

 

[X1-12]

wow lots of ninjas, making me look like kuzs *****

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

JTB, i don't like this stance post at all.

Stances

Soren - already gone over
X1 - Currently null, I have yet to see him flip in any other games so far, so I'm unable to tell if him leading town is a scum or town tell.
Gatlin - Town, he did answer X1's question to town as well as provide a decent case on Swords.
Asianaussie - Leaning scum. I believe his case on Gatlin is rather reaching. I don't see how Gatlin's clear and concise answer to X1 can be considered a scumtell, neither do I believe it was Gatlin's intent for it to be so short that it will be considered 'under the radar'.
Ran - already gone over him
Fynal - Town. He is demonstrating a clear intent to catch scum in his vote of TBS and FoS of Soren.
Kuz - Town, wastes no time jumping right into scumhunting.
Seikend - Town, he is also making an effort to contribute to town.
Gova - Town, based off our exchange.

I'll come back to Soupa/Swords laters.

Alot of these 'stances' are just the first look on them, but nothing that really proves an alignment.

also, your town list is huge, why aren't you pursuing scum reads?

 

[Gova]

No. Have you asked anyone else this question? Do you feel you are getting good info from asking that?

These kinds of questions aren't good for scumhunting, since they ask for a yes or no answer. Scum would obviously say no, so it's a waste of time.

Because, I'm only interested your answer based on what I know of you. Despite this you still haven't answered it. If scum would obviously say no what would town say and why haven't you answered it?

@Gova: Could you expend on this?

I'm not quite sure what you don't like about that.

By that time, we had already recieved our role PM's, or at least I had, so everyone should have known their alignments. You called me out as being scum for starting to give advice, but then you got mad at JTB for taking my supposed "job". It looked to me like maybe you hoped I would continue to do it and use it to get me lynched if all I did was explain, teach, and give advice. I.E fake contributing.

 

[ranmaru]

Whoa, I was going to vote JTB. 0.o I got ninjad. What L-___ is JTB at?

Ok, now everyone:

JTB has 3 votes now, and it might be a fun choice to get on him because everyone thinks he is scum. If you join the consensus and vote him, you are wagoning. Now this means you agree with everyone that JTB is scum. It would be ok for me to join because I have already explained my reasons. Kuz's reason could be questionable because he asked my thoughts first, and then voted.

If you want to join, you must give your reasoning to get on it, because this means you want that person killed. If you get on it without reason, people will (hopefully) question your motive. For example:

definitely. unvote vote JTB

What do you guys think of Soup voting for JTB, without giving much thought on him in the first place?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

EBWOP ranmaru.

 

[ranmaru]

Because, I'm only interested your answer based on what I know of you. Despite this you still haven't answered it. If scum would obviously say no what would town say and why haven't you answered it?

I have. Town would say no too. Everyone would. It's better if you ask questions that are open ended. Not simple questions. You are being scummy for asking loaded questions, it isn't helpful. It's garbage.

 

[ranmaru]

Vote: Gova

 

[X1-12]

ran your 326 probably helped scum more than town... Facepalm

Theres enough ics to explain stuff, just play the game bro

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

another thing JTB, you have gatlin listed as town in your stances, but...your #317 kind of says otherwise.

 

[Gova]

Ran, it is in no way a loaded question. And it did have one purpose, to see how cooperative you would be with town, which is very unlikely given this reponse. I guess you didn't retain the conversation we had on AIM a while back about what this question was supposed to accomplish.

 

[Gova]

On this, note, if JTB flips scum, Ran is likely scum as well.

 

[Seikend]

Ah, I'm sorry for that. Yet you didn't notice that the first part of the second example, was not a repeat. I like using examples/details because they support your arguments. I like to find concrete evidence.

Aah, okay. Yeah, I'm fine with that post then, I understand your reasoning.

 

[ranmaru]

ran your 326 probably helped scum more than town... Facepalm

Theres enough ics to explain stuff, just play the game bro

I wanted to explain wagoning is bad because townies shouldn't let scum get on wagons easily. Why didn't you explain wagoning to them? I thought I should have posted that being an SE.

Aah, okay. Yeah, I'm fine with that post then, I understand your reasoning.

Oh ok then.

@Gova: I do remember that conversation. I answered your question, and then asked how you thought it was effecient. I think Gord would agree with me on this one.

Also explain why Jtb scum makes me scum please.

 

[Seikend]

Based on JTB's response I might be willing to join the wagon.

 

[Gova]

Didn't see you answer it, turns out you did though. Regardless, this doesn't change my opinion on you.

Because, your defense of JTB in which you found him null IIRC, even though as Kuz pointed out to you that he is pretty scummy while voting me, calling me out as scum, for one question which is a real null tell. Also, Ran, wagoning is not always bad.

 

[th3kuzinator]

It is when you explain to scum that wagoning without further reasoning is a scum tell.

They're bound to fall for it now.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

@asianaussie: Valid point, that's true that I did not give any reasoning behind my voting. The reason I voted Sworddancer. is because I viewed him as trying to steer the attention in another direction. Obviously if he were scum, he wouldn't want people's attention to be on him. By pointing the finger at X1-12 and Kuz, it draws more attention towards them than himself. Plus, he made no attempt to try and persuade people that he is not scum. X1-12 and Kuz being DGame frequents, I get the feeling that they have a fairly large chance at being scum, so obviously it makes me agree with his accusation. Thinking further, that is probably what he wanted me to think, so gotta go with my gut and go against his accusation.

This is WIFOM at it's finest and generally the kind of thought process that we want to avoid.

By pointing the finger at X1-12 and Kuz, it draws more attention towards them than himself.

This could be said of anyone who makes any accustion what so ever. Simply saying someone could do something as scum is very general and leads no where. "Why would they do action x as scum?" is the question you should be trying to answer.

This part is really WIFOMie:

X1-12 and Kuz being DGame frequents, I get the feeling that they have a fairly large chance at being scum, so obviously it makes me agree with his accusation. Thinking further, that is probably what he wanted me to think, so gotta go with my gut and go against his accusation.

The first part doesn't make sense, becuase X1 and Kuz being here awhile has no berring on whether or not they were given a scum role. However, the WIFOM part comes when he saids that "he probably wanted me to think this." Oh, is that true? However, what if I thought that you would think that I wanted you to think that? Ahha, got you there didn't I? Oh, but I knew you would draw this conclusion, and thus changed my stratagy accordingly! So on and so on.

lol, 2-4 is right, I don't play Pichu, I've been a Jiggs main for the past 5 years, never deviated.

But this isn't really contributing to the game, neither is Gova's debate about IC/SEs with me. We should be focusing on scumhunting, not sematics.

Correct!

By that time, we had already recieved our role PM's, or at least I had, so everyone should have known their alignments. You called me out as being scum for starting to give advice, but then you got mad at JTB for taking my supposed "job". It looked to me like maybe you hoped I would continue to do it and use it to get me lynched if all I did was explain, teach, and give advice. I.E fake contributing.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosRoulette

Ah, I always was a masterplaner.

I don't recall if I had my role pm there or not.

You wouldn't happen to have any other interpertations of that post, would you Gova?

 

[JTB]

Unvote
Vote: JTB

how do you already know gatlins intent in his post?

Why does you read on me rely on other games?

I don't know Gatlin's intent in his post, I can only go off of the impression it gives me. In order to know his intent, I would have to know for certain of his alignment, so I don't know what you were trying to accomplish in that question.

As for your read, it's because I don't really know how to read you at all, so I have to go off of meta.

JTB, i don't like this stance post at all.



Alot of these 'stances' are just the first look on them, but nothing that really proves an alignment.

also, your town list is huge, why aren't you pursuing scum reads?

The game has barely started, there really isn't a whole lot of information to go off of.

And is there something wrong with having a big town list? From my experience, there is usually only 3 scum in games of this size and I have stated that 3 players look scummy to me.

JTB has 3 votes now, and it might be a fun choice to get on him because everyone thinks he is scum. If you join the consensus and vote him, you are wagoning. Now this means you agree with everyone that JTB is scum. It would be ok for me to join because I have already explained my reasons. Kuz's reason could be questionable because he asked my thoughts first, and then voted.

If you want to join, you must give your reasoning to get on it, because this means you want that person killed. If you get on it without reason, people will (hopefully) question your motive. For example:

Seriously Ran? You don't need to think someone is scum in order to jump on a wagon, you get on a wagon to apply pressure and see how they react.

unvote vote Ranmaru

What do you guys think of Soup voting for JTB, without giving much thought on him in the first place?

It's a null tell. Nothing wrong with jumping on a wagon for reads.

another thing JTB, you have gatlin listed as town in your stances, but...your #317 kind of says otherwise.

Don't see how that post says otherwise. Explain to me.

 

[ranmaru]

Didn't see you answer it, turns out you did though. Regardless, this doesn't change my opinion on you.

Because, your defense of JTB in which you found him null IIRC, even though as Kuz pointed out to you that he is pretty scummy while voting me, calling me out as scum, for one question which is a real null tell. Also, Ran, wagoning is not always bad.

Yeah you quoted it.

I do not find parroting a scum tell, I find it is too weak for me to garner a tell. I try to find stronger reasons to call out for scum. Even so, Kuz found him scummy for the reasons I used, not his own. (Yet we don't know why he asked me about JTB first)

I do not think that question is a null tell, it doesn't help scum hunting at all.

I said it would be bad to have everyone join without a reason. That is all.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

The game has barely started, there really isn't a whole lot of information to go off of.

And is there something wrong with having a big town list? From my experience, there is usually only 3 scum in games of this size and I have stated that 3 players look scummy to me.

if this isn't the most bull**** excuse i've ever seen, i don't what is.

it doesn't matter the time-frame of the game, it matters what happens, to me, there has been plenty to go off of, you are just trying to avoid me.

 

[ranmaru]

Seriously Ran? You don't need to think someone is scum in order to jump on a wagon, you get on a wagon to apply pressure and see how they react.

unvote vote Ranmaru



It's a null tell. Nothing wrong with jumping on a wagon for reads.

You vote me only because you disagree with me, right?

Soup never said he was trying to apply pressure, although I do see him following up pressure on you. (Which is good)

 

[th3kuzinator]

@JTBs post:

*looks at watch*

took him 50 minutes to post THAT?

Cool beans. Reminds me of scumJTB meta in Dissidia when I outed him and he kinda lurked said nothing because he was caving due to pressure.

Notice how he doesn't respond to my accusation, nor does he comment on Ran's post where he lists the stuff in detail. Just parrots X1's comments on Ran playing derpalicious and uses that as an excuse to get on.

Soup, no need for cursing.
Ran, no need for derping.

@JTB, big town lists early game accomplish nothing.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

His reasoning for why Swords is possible scum is what I would expect from someone who is new to the game. Bolded statements are points that directly stand out to me.

so, being a 'noob player', does that automatically clear him as town? i myself am not sure what you were trying to get at your #317.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@Kuz please answer my gatlin/seikend question.

i just want an opnion of them from you.

 

[Gova]

@Swords, nope. But lucky for you, I know how to read things in context. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were just joking but we'll see.

@Ran, parroting, excluding ninja's, is basically fake contributing which imo is a scum tell. And he found JTB scummy for those reasons while you find him null, which is what I'm talking about.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Gatlin is null leaning town iirc.

Seik is town

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@Kuz are you town? explain to me why you think you are town.

 

[JTB]

Kuz, I had to run out to the grocery store, if you were really concerned with me taking forever to post, you should've just looked on aim and saw that I was idle.

As for the huge town lists, well my bad, that's something I didn't know.

Soupamario, no, it doesn't automatically clear him as town. All it does is give me an initial impression of his alignment. If he does something scummy in the future, then he starts leaning scum. Get it?

Ran, the fact that he voted me means that he is putting pressure on me.

 

[Fynal]

wow i finally stop obsessively checking the thread for an afternoon and BAM 5 pages
...then i wrote this and more. so much posting all of a sudden. oh well ill post anyway.

I'm slowly getting suspicious of Soup, despite several people saying they've got a town read
(i'm interested to know how good any of these tells are)

Spoiler

you could call out Sword for the fluffing
could call out X1 for such the assertive and leading position

all IC's to me are null for now until further notice, i'm waiting for kuz to respond so i can get some reads.

and Personally, what ranmaru posted was really uneccesary, he almost wanted to bring that up so people wouldn't call him out on that if he were to do that, or to perhaps do the exact opposite so people won't think he is scum.

JTB, i don't like this stance post at all.

Alot of these 'stances' are just the first look on them, but nothing that really proves an alignment.

also, your town list is huge, why aren't you pursuing scum reads?

You shouldn't, but it's not right to just go "HEY YOU STOP THAT PLAY LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IS!"

who says i trust sword? i just know what he is up to, that's all.

also, i need to do some scumhunting too, kinda just been lurking the thread and getting reads.

what i'm seeing here is soup talking a lot about scumhunting, suggesting reasons to go after people, and telling people they should be scumhunting, but i can't seem to remember any actual hunting. looking town without being town? And then he goes and votes JTB, without posting reasoning.

FoS: Soupamario

my vote stays with TBS atm, still feels scummier, and soup has posted more since i wrote this

@TBS(and soup) replies?

 

[ranmaru]

@Kuz are you town? explain to me why you think you are town.

You don't ask people these kinds of questions. You are supposed to give your thoughts and then ask. (and good questions not dumb ones like yours) >_>

It's scummy.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

stop avoiding me and get to the actual point, you're giving wishy-washy answers that are crap.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

? And then he goes and votes jtb, without posting reasoning.

lollololwut

 

[th3kuzinator]

@Kuz are you town? explain to me why you think you are town.

Because you respond positively to buddying?

@JTB, way to respond to only the meta bits in my post. You should respond to Ran's strangely accurate summary of your scum play.

Why he's currently voting Gova I haven't the slightest.

 

[JTB]

Oh, and Ran, as for my vote on you, it's not exactly because I disagree with you. I see you as confusing the newer players (wagoning definition) and spreading WIFOM (post on TBS).

 

[th3kuzinator]

@Fynal, You're right that Soup is playing textbook scummy. Thats his town-tell, though. He's a complicated kinda guy.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@Fynal everything you quoted there is scumhunting btw.

 

[ranmaru]

@Jtb: You didn't use your own reasons for each thing. You only parroted Kuz and X1 for those. >_> And you do have too many town picks. Town should be more suspicious because they don't know who is town.

lollololwut

You should give reasoning, it helps town get a read. Since you aren't, you are being anti-town while pressuring JTB for reads. It's a 2 way street.

@Kuz: Then Soup should be null then, not town for that.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

i did give reasoning, it's in fynal's quote.