here[/URL] where I ask X1 what vibe he gets from TBS's post. He responds with
this and then
this.
Let me highlight something from the second post.
X1-12 said:
The vibe it gives off is best described as "yuk" or possibly "eurk". Its just horrible, it doesn't read noobtown at all, but neither does it particularly fit with the noobscum :/
First, X1 tries to get away with being neutral on TBS by saying that his posts give him a "yuk" or and "eurk" feeling, not a "scummy" feeling.
He makes a point of saying that it does not look noobtown or noobscum.
However, he goes on right to say in the next sentence that
X1-12 said:
TBS is scummy for stuff like this: "If him placing our reflects his alignment then I think we would have to assume he is a bad sport, I believe that has little or no reflection on his alignment." - Its like Ranmaru 2.0 or something. His #727 is probably also the most reaching thing since mr elastic.
Hey X1, I can find contradictions too. Despite him previously stating that TBS gives him a "Ranmaru type null feeling" he admits he wants him lynched for that.
X1 more than anyone else should know that the way Ranmaru types is anti-town but not scummy. Yes, there is a clear difference. Yet he tries to get away with pushing him for those weak-*** reasons.
Now lets look at 727, which X1 calls the most reaching thing since Mr. Elastic.
TBS said:
The thing is you never committed to it, just planted the seed. Asking a question, I just answered whether or not it made you look scummy. I thought that the idea was but then again it is a rather poor scum read, but it does single you out more then swords in this one instance, and everyone is pretty hung up on swords. And I admit I have been only just skimming and missed the major reason why everyone is nocking up against swords. I also just realized I have been much more questioned as scum then I realized, I thought only X1 called me TBS, while looking for this post found my name crops up quite often.
TBS proposes an idea (poorly constructed, but hes a newbie) that JTB tried to subliminally give the newbie a chance to replace in before lynching him. X1 calls this super duper reaching, but its blatantly obvious thats not the case. The bolded section clearly shows that TBS even acknowledges its a weak indicator and that he has largely skimmed most of what he is talking about. Wishy-washy, certainly. But reaching this clearly is not. It is wishy washy because TBS is noobtown and this is the exact type of response that comes from someone who has not been trained to always take hard stances. Its quite clear TBS has had no outside help in learning the game and his reluctance to give a definitive stance is normal for newbies. However, when simply dismissed as a "yuk" leaning scum read from an IC, it could be interpreted in the opposite manner.
What X1 largely failed to mention in the post I asked him to analyze is summed up by myself
th3kuzinator said:
@X1: I am taking the quote I asked you to analyze as a town tell. I remember during my nub-scum days I would never go out of my way to draw suspicion on the good/aggressive players because I did not want their attention to turn on me. TBS acts in a way that shows he is constantly worried about being backstabbed by the players who lead town and he would not need to be conscious of this if he was scum. If anything, this type of noobscum coaxing has been done by AA all game. I don't understand why you dropped his push in the slightest.
Yes, got a little off track, but this is showing key X1 opportunism in relation to noobtown TBS.
JTB - For one, X1 pushed JTB hard D1. I know X1 and I have played with X1 as his scum buddy. He rarely ever tries to bus players D1, he saves that for D2. For another JTB's responses come across as a townie who simply is not that interested in taking initiative and somewhat goes with the flow.
This post is an example of what I am talking about. He would not have bothered to say this in thread had he been scummates with X1 and would have just asked him which wagon would be the most productive to follow. He is not aligned with X1, and I have a large scum read on X1. His question to me in thread about whether his posts look anything like the ones where he was scum in Dissidia don't remind me of something scum would say as well and I am taking this as a town tell.
Fynal - Fynal was a player I had to think about for a long while because I was largely unsure of his aligned for most of the game. He played well, almost too well, and came to many of the conclusions I came to without me spoonfeeding him which made me think he had some type of outside coaching from a scum mate. However, his pushes seem really genuine and he largely supports the stances he takes with reasoning. His stubborness to accept that Ranmaru was town after locking into him at the start of D2 despite me telling him that I was sure that Ranmaru was town shows me his conviction to think independently. His underlying suspicion of yours truly also sits well with me because following me has only led to a town lynch thus far and from a noobtown POV it is quite easy to see players being manipulated by scum ICs. His nonchalanteness with putting JTB as L-1 on D1 is also pretty townie as experienced scummates would prep their scumbuddies about the implications of doing this beforehand and I feel that his responses in his defense of being pressured at that time seemed genuinely frantic town. I made a note of this as soon as it happened.
Soupamario - This read should be pretty obvious from ANYONE who knows Soup meta. Looks exactly how he played in Dissidia because of the way he types and brainstorms. Scumsoup knows that whatever he is saying is bull**** and usually just sits on the sidelines posting stupid pictures in an attempt to look uninterested. As town, Soup is usually all over the place with his posts, creating long elaborate theories to catch scum. He has been doing that plenty this game, examples
here and
here.
[/collapse]This leaves
X1-12
Seikend
UTD
Soren
asianaussie
As possible scum. In a 13 man game, there will be three scum as that is the customary balancing number. Therefore 3 out of these 5 players
are scum and this is our current lynch pool.
If you'll notice after my change of heart, every single post I have made is in an attempt to feel out these 5 players. From in depth question/grilling Seikend to seeing who would be okay with the aa lynch to asking which of UTD/Soren should go first (I even asked Seikend if he was a dayvig who he would shoot first). Each of these players all have their good points and they all have their bad points and I am still trying to figure out in my mind which 3 are scum. Obviously, I still have 2 big question marks on UTD and Soren due to inactivity, but I think I have been able to feel out the other three somewhat nicely. I will get to my thoughts on the 5 of them later, I want to respond to X1's bull**** first.
[collapse=Why X1's case is complete bull]
Re-read some. Seikend is scum, kuz is probably his buddy. Don't know about AA. Ran is town because scumkuz would never try that on his scumbud and townkuz would never make such a drastic move unless he was sure he was right.
If X1 had
re-read some like he claims he would have noticed that I
am sure in my alignment switch of Ranmaru which is what I have been saying over and over again. X1 also tries to summarize my meta and assume I would never do what I just did as town which, if you knew my meta, is complete bull.
You want to know what the funniest part about this post is? I did the exact same thing in a previous game (change of heart mid Day) and X1 played up that townKuz would never do that and got me lynched for it. Surprise, X1 was scum in that game and I was town. X1 should know that I can and do do stuff like this as town and that fact that he says I wouldn't is a blatant lie. If you want to fact check me, the game was Bear and Fish 11 and it can be found here.
I'll even show you the post IN GAME where I said I had a change of heart.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11917131&postcount=491
And from there X1 proceeded to ML me on the grounds that townKuz would never do that. This is the exact same scenario and he is trying to put me in the exact same situation. Thats why I called bull****, becuase its complete bull**** and he knows it.
But instead, X1 tries to evade this type of callout by posting this. Would townX1 really result to petty reasoning to further solidify his lynch target? No, he wouldn't. He did the same thing wrt to the Ran lynch on D1 when he told us that we should lynch Ranmaru first because he would probably have the weaker scum PR. X1 doesn't resort to bull reasoning like that as town and hes much more correctly aggro than this.
If we make note of Seik's stances throughout the game I've only done up to post #500 because I have a life. The people he has called scum or attacked are: Sword, JTB, Fynal, Ran
Seikend's stances are incredibly poor. He starts off attacking Sword for a
very weak reason, but then continues that read on for at least half of the Day. His attack on Ran simply comes down to Ranmaru being "iffy" with what he said. His attack on JTB is very poorly founded and very opportunistic. He literally asks TWICE (
one,
two) for reasons to jump on the wagon - He's begging people to let him wagon-hop, JTB was already L-3 at this point.
This is such bull I can't even stand it. Seikend's weak stance on Sword was RVS and you know it was RVS. His stance on Ran does not simply come down to Ranmaru being iffy with what he said, he largely attacks Ranmaru for being stubborn and not being able to see his wagon hopping reasoning for D1. As I said previously, while being attacked in such a fashion it may look like the attacker is being opportunistic which is what Seik was getting at. X1 just reachingly dismisses it all for the sake of his case, but thats not the truth in the slightest.
Now we've seen Seik being opportunistic and jumpy with his scumreads - fast to accept people as scum. There is also two contradictions in his posts, one is a VERY big deal imo
Contradiction numero uno (aka the small one)
I ask Seikend his scumpicks. He says: Seik basically states that he has a next most scummy player. Or at least that he's thought about who would be the next scummy player. He then goes on to answer it saying "
any other scumpick at this point would be reaching honestly". Firstly if he had no other scumpicks, why would he ever need to ask me what I wanted from him, there was only one thing he could give? If he only had one scumpicks, why would he ever ask that question? Secondly, he acts in the first quote as though he HAS other scumpicks, but then goes on to say other scumpicks would be reaching.
This contradiction is literally inconsequential. X1 should be able to differentiate between normal contradictions and scummy ones.
Contradiction duo (aka the big one)
#410: Aside from the fact I also find this particularly opportunistic of Seikend to jump on Fynal like that, he later
asks Ran, kuz and Sword about it. In that post he specifically states he thinks what Fynal did was scummy. Ran proceeds to answer that its a scumtell (agreeing with Seik) but then in
#499 Seikend attacks Ran for being opportunistic in his fynal stance, despite Seikend earlier having the EXACT same stance - Seik states that action X is scummy, but when Ran agrees with him he called Ran opportunistic for it
Bulllllllshait. Though it is true Seikend contradicts himself, this was because that between post 410 and 499 I had come in telling Seikend that the thing he voted fynal for was simply a noobtell. Seikend is getting at Ranmaru for dodging his question and answering it from a different angle, not that Ranmaru was being opportunistic wrt the Fynal wagon. Seikend clearly states multiple times throughout this game that he does not feel very adept at picking up legitimate scum reads and this is largely consistent with how he has played this game. When X1 takes it out of context like this, though, he can make anything look scummy. This combined with the recent X1 push on Seik makes me thing Seik is leaning town as well.
This leaves
X1
aa
Soren
UTD
Most likely 3 of those 4 are scum.
A.) Seik totally avoids mentioning kuz during D1 despite him being one of the most active players - Its common for noobscum to do that. They try to not be connected with their partner in case it incriminates them, but end up over compensating. I've done this and lost scum the game in Bioware and Soul Calibur, BSL did it terribly in Allstars but somehow got away with it. Its like classic noobscum and incredibly damning for kuz should Seik flip scum
You're kidding me right? Since when did Seik avoid me D1? We spoke plenty during that Day and its cool and all that you bring up incorrect information to damn me but stuff like this does not help. Off the top of my head I remember talking to Seikend about how what Fynal did was just a nub tell and I remember specifically trying to convince him to join Sword's wagon.
B.) After Soup makes a case on Seik. Kuz basically jumps on saying that is what he was thinking, and gently pushes the Seik wagon but never commits to it. You have to read in context from #1081 to understand it. The main thing is kuz appears to be attacking Seik, but if you pay attention he never makes an effort to get people onto the wagon, just questions him in an aggressive manner. Scumkuz trying to not appear connected to Seik
Okay, I seriously started laughing. Could you possible try reaching any harder? Me lengthily grilling Seik, voting him, getting him to L-2 and trying to get him to take hard stances/get his stances before he dies is
not committing to his wagon and trying not to appear connected? I mean with posts like
this its pretty easy to see I don't want to draw any links to Seikend. More blatantly false information from our third IC.
C.) I asked kuz about Seik's meta. They have hydra'd together so I would expect kuz to know it particularly well, yet kuz ignores me. Missing a questions is acceptable sure, but the fact the post before mine he specifically states he is waiting for my post, which he then ignores the question in? This is by far the weakest of the proof of connections but still worth mentioning
Well your last two reasons were spot on correct, so this weaker part should only help your case right? If anything, this is the only true statement you've made your entire post. Believe it or not, but I actually did miss your question or I would have answered it as soon as I saw it.
All three of these reasons are reaching paragraphs trying to draw non existent scum ties between the two of us. He does not even bother to check his facts before posting.
Yeah. He is. I really cba to into it now but it comes down to a few things
1.) His defence of Ran.
Yup, its scummy. Not because I think Ran is scum, but because the way he did it was scummy. If a town player thought Ran was town, he'd just push away from Ran, attacking the scumpicks instead. Kuz didn't do that, he made a big charade of specifically defending Ran, making sure everyone saw him do it. I used this exact strategy to win the game as scum in Newbie 11 (Gova would tell you if he hadn't been NK'ed). I cleared Dourin as basically town on D1 (?????Because why would scum ever do that???). Also if he could truly read Ran from meta he'd know it from the start of the game, the "Ran-town-tells" he describes have been exhibited form the start of D1. The fact he is so confident in his Ran read when Ran's been incredibly scummy (he always is) makes me think that kuz has outside information that Ran is town (i.e Ran isn't on kuz's scumteam, ergo is town)
Again, X1 knows I do this stuff as town and he witnessed it and MLd me in a previous game where I did it. No way he doesn't remember. X1 then tries to use some of his own scummeta to convict me...
Who. The. ****. Does. That?
This is what I did as scum and it worked therefore this is what Kuz would do as scum. I feel like Dark Horse in here but thats such a fallacy I can't even tell you.
2.) His WIFOM after his defence of Ran
Kuz says "oh yeah as scum why would I distract from an easy mislynch, makes no sense". I've basically touched on this and I already called him out for it. Firstly its stupid WIFOM, and secondly I used this exact line of reasoning to win Mafia Allstars as scum. lol.
lol.
I did this as scum, therefore when Kuz does it, it makes him scum. That in itself is WIFOM and again is a fallacy.
Just thought I'd bring this up, but this is how X1 responded to my same type of please when I was town in Bear and Fish.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11920935&postcount=516
Which is exactly what he's doing now.
3.) Kuz playing up to his IC massively. He's not explaining reads until way after he makes them too
Each read kuz has had he's trying to make people work for him. Aside from the fact that at this stage in the game its completely unnecessary to make people jump through hoops like that. Its just a waste of time. He should just explain his reads and get on with it. I find the way he continues to try to play super IC a scum tell. Townkuz should be just getting down and scumhunting way more. When he directed Night actions at the end of D1 it was reall generic and not in any way useful. Advice dogging.
This is probably the stupidest thing I have seen this entire game. Literally. X1 over using the advice dogging **** over and over again. Funny thing is, I specifically DIDN'T play up being and IC all game and made it a point to actively contribute and scum hunt. Despite saying I am massively advice dogging he can only remember one instance on where I gave advice after RVS was over, which was during D1 twilight. Sorry X1, didn't know I couldn't practically make 1 advice post this entire game despite being an IC. X1 states numerous times that Ran should not be giving advice because the ICs will handle it and --> ICs handle it --> oh Kuz is advice dogging. [/collapse]Was going to save him for a later Day, but toDay is fine too.
Unvote; Vote: X1-12
As I said in my defeat of X1's case I am thinking more and more that Seikend is town from his interactions from X1.
This leaves the lynch pool tentatively at
Soren
UTD
X1
aa
I am fairly confident that X1 is scum along with AA and one of the inactives. I don't know which inactive yet due to the sheer lack of content, but I will figure it out soon and get back to you.
X1 is being lynched toDay. I have a really compelling argument as to why AA is scum along with X1 but I will save that for my next post as this one is huge already. You also notice how X1 steps in and "puts all his cards on the table" as soon as AA was about to be wagoned? While I was pressuring Seik and getting him to L-2 he was fine being inactive, but now that AA came under fire he came out of nowhere to deflect attention elsewhere. I can't wait to bring up the scummy as **** connections between AA and X1 later.
I implore you to read this whole thing and fact check everything I have said about X1's points being baseless. Almost everything he has said is either reaching, a contradiction or just plain wrong and it pains me that I had to fact check everything he said before responding to it.
, it's annoying and lowers your credibility in my eyes
