Newbie 24 - SMT: Devil Survivor LAW IS VICTORIOUS #1 CHAOS LOSES AHAHAHAH

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Mod: Votecount plz

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

5 to lynch. Xiroey has been prodded.

Votecount 1.5:
GaGa [1] Xiroey
Xiroey [0]
Turazok [2] Potassium, Pawndidater
Raziek [0]
pawndidater2 [1] Turazok
Badwolf [1] Rake
Ranmaru (SE) [0]
Potassium (IC) [0]
Rake (IC) [2] Ranmaru, GaGa, Badwolf [L-2]

Not Voting:

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

I voted Rake earlier....

Vote Rake

Just to be sure.

 

[ranmaru]

Kantrip, need you in the thread bro. Hope you can deliver some thoughts tonight.

Xiroey, please try to post whatever you can. Here's a recent quote I want you to see as you come in:

@Xiroey: I'm disappointed in you. You said you had a big post incoming, and then lost it. Ok, it's gone, try again. If at all, try at least responding to my #206 in a smaller post then. Try doing it all in Microsoft word and Ctrl + S'ing all the time so that way you back up your post instead of letting it go to waste. YOU ARE HOLDING UP THE THREAD SO PICK YOURSELF UP BUDDY. Come on.

I want the newbies to take note of Xiroey taking a bit longer than usual to get involved here. Don't let others hold up the thread guys! You can't get reads on people who don't get involved. You can respect their play-styles but don't let them sit back while others fight it out, no. I also colored this post so that people don't miss this. I want attention to be put on this. I find it hard to get a read if people aren't interacting as much as usual. If people sit back it's easy for them to get away from the sights of town early on and just become "that lurker" and others might prioritize their strong scumreads over them. Don't LET that happen. Bring them in.

Everyone should remember we have 5 days left until deadline.

Now back to class.

 

[pawndidater2]

He's still bandwagoning and is guilty to some of the same accusations leveled at me in #305.

Expatiate.

In addition he also puts xiroey on null-town. Xiroey had one post. One.

@Ran: I was curious to see if he'd respond to the vote or not. (And how)

He's already had several people voting for him so far, and so far he still hasn't reacted to Turazroks vote for him a few posts back.

Just something to help me come up with some more substancial reads.

You haven't posted anything that would lead me to suspect you so far.
So far each of your posts have contained either helpful advice or legitimate questions, so there's not much on you that would mark you as "scum". (If anything).

That doesn't mean I'm not watching you though...
In detective movies, the culprit usually turns out to be the one person you least expect...

@Rake: I'm not sure if I can name anything specific, since actions can be judged either way based on context and their accomplishments.

I'm looking for something that doesn't add up. Maybe a post that comes off as a town post, but would better benifit mafia in the long run. I haven't found anything substantial yet, but I do have some theories.

Pawn seems pretty defensive in his posts. It's suspicious, but I believe it might also attribute to him being unsure of how to respond, due to his actions being analyzed more closely than others. His original posts were honest and nonchalant. When that started to draw suspicion he became more reactive/defensive.

He seems nervous, but whether it's a case of nervous townie not sure how to respond under pressure, or guilty mafia is unclear. I'd like to make a more solid conclusion about it myself, but right now it's too early to tell.

Gaga originally drew my suspicion because of Ranmaru's post (which I questioned above). If he turned out to be Mafia then that would mean that I'd also have a second suspect (Ranmaru). It wasn't much to go off of, since, like Ran said, private chating with other townies is against the rules. But, if I could maybe get either one of them to slip up and maybe give me some solid evidence, We'd have our second most-likely culprit already found. The chances were small, but it was just too good a chance to pass up.

I'd like to hang back more and read a more responses. Maybe something else will pop up that catches my eye. That way, maybe my first random vote won't be quite so random (A little backing is better than no backing).

That's all I have for now.



By the way, question:

@Mari777: We haven't heard much from you lately. What do you think on the bandwagon on pawn so far? Do you think he's guilty or just nervous?

(Wow, I suddenly feel like a detective)

Where does he get the confidence to put Xiroey at null-town considering he claims to trust no one?

I didn't say I trust no one, I said no one's above suspicion. There's a world of difference.

Anyone else care to add?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Xiroey has called V/LA.

 

[pawndidater2]

Definition plox?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

currently catching up.

Expect content in maybe and hour or so.

 

[GaGa]

We're not lynching Rake.

Good thing you cant make unilateral decisions.


I expect a good explanation...you JUST GOT HERE, do you know how suspicious you sound yourself?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Definition plox?

Vacation/Low Activity. If you call V/LA i'll be less strict about prods and I'll give you more leeway with your activity. This doesn't justify not posting at all though, so don't abuse the privilege. This doesn't exempt you from being replaced either, and if you're too inactive you will be force replaced.

 

[ranmaru]

Xiroey has called V/LA.

V/LA for how long? Or just for today? Just wondering.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Leaning more on the side of LA. I'll replace if I have to, but I don't think he'll let me down.

 

[ranmaru]

Ah ok, thanks bro.

 

[Raziek]

Good thing you cant make unilateral decisions.


I expect a good explanation...you JUST GOT HERE, do you know how suspicious you sound yourself?

It's called confidence, learn to deal.

If we have two lynches and one is much better than the other, I'm not going to let the wrong one get pushed through.

Besides, I just got here and I've already generated more content than have the playerlist. Or would you like to suggest that any of this somehow makes me scum?

What exactly makes me sounds suspicious?

 

[Raziek]

EBWOP: Half* the playerlist.

 

[Raziek]

Kantrip, where the **** are you, buddy?

I need to bounce off my other half on the opposite side of Canada.

 

[pawndidater2]

It's called confidence, learn to deal.

If we have two lynches and one is much better than the other, I'm not going to let the wrong one get pushed through.

Besides, I just got here and I've already generated more content than have the playerlist. Or would you like to suggest that any of this somehow makes me scum?

What exactly makes me sounds suspicious?

You're giving me more of an 'egotistical douchebag' read than scummy, but I'm not sure how long that will last...

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

You're giving me more of an 'egotistical douchebag' read than scummy, but I'm not sure how long that will last...

Wait till' you meet Swiss.

 

[Raziek]

You're giving me more of an 'egotistical douchebag' read than scummy, but I'm not sure how long that will last...

Fairly typical, but usually more affectionate. I'm a bull-headed pain in the ass.

Now, if we can get past my confrontational disposition,

The core of the matter is that GaGa seems to think my assertion makes me scummy. Why?

 

[Kantrip]

I'm here, sorry for my absence.

Hey Raz, nice to see you. I like your content so far, talk to me about why Rake is a bad lynch (I agree, just want to hear what you have to say).

 

[GaGa]

It's called confidence, learn to deal.

If we have two lynches and one is much better than the other, I'm not going to let the wrong one get pushed through.

Besides, I just got here and I've already generated more content than have the playerlist. Or would you like to suggest that any of this somehow makes me scum?

What exactly makes me sounds suspicious?

Moreso seeing if you'd back down...heh.

 

[Kantrip]

No. I need some more comments from the newbies, and I want to finish this spar with Rake first. I also want you to explain your thoughts on Pawn's explanation for the question you gave him as well.

Is my question to pawn my #192? If so:

He tries to defuse [Rake's] points without providing any proof. He just says [Rake's] faking.

I am completely fine with this answer. What pawn says here is completely legitimate: Turaz was just trying to diffuse Rake's points without providing any proof. It's exactly like pawn says, and it is a good point too. pawn came up with it on his own and I agree.

Also, maybe you could try looking at if Turok responded to your most recent reasoning. Did he do so?

Here is my stuff against Turaz:

Turazrok - sheeped Ran to justify voting pawn, but he ended up making up reasoning that didn't even apply to pawn which proved Turaz was just looking to join the wagon and his heart wasn't in it. He has been failing to respond to my points against him or the questions I have asked him recently, and his content since pressure has been on him has degraded to non-serious posts. This is an example of a poor reaction to pressure which is just making his badly justified jump onto pawn all the worse.

In response we get this:

Rake is training me because he's either fake reading scum/ I'm bad at arguing/ he's dumb.
His appraisal of me as scum seems circumstantial at best and he's reading way too deeply into silly **** I post at 4 in the morning. I don't think he's scum, he's just going too ham on too little.

Also not a hundred percent sure but I thought I answered a few of banana man's questions :/ will go back and check

He says he's not sure but he thinks he answered a few of my questions. Says he'll go back to check. He never follows up on this.

Again the only evidence against me is that I was fixated on GaGa starting the wagon instead of the people jumping onto it, and the fact that you claim I don't provide evidence for most of my points, which while perhaps a poor way to argue, not damning in and of itself. Conversely Pwn is ironically jumping on the train against me by pointing out a post it seems like he didn't even read :/

I have said why before, generally I get reprimanded for it. And since when is lurking scummy? I mean if lurking was scummy at that point then why isn't anyone taking jabs at Badwolf? Who has said literally nothing of import.

And aren't you just agreeing with Ran and Rake?

Rake's point on me being essentially, that I'm bad at arguing and therefore scum

Not very convincing tbh.

These are Turaz's responses to the pressure on him. See, what I don't like about it is that rather than explaining things to make his actions more understandable, he just tries to say that others are blowing them out of proportion. He waters down the things he has done and then says "look it's not that damning." Never do we get a good explanation for anything. I don't consider this "addressing my points" sufficiently. He's also a bit defensive towards pawn and Rake, though he doesn't specifically address me at any point. I believe this is because I lay out my points without an angle he can really see to pick them apart from. For example, he focuses on the lurking section of pawn's problems with him and then redirects the issue onto Badwolf. He doesn't own up, but he also doesn't deny anything, nor does he explain himself. Instead, he just finds another player who has been "lurking" and tries to shift our attention to them.

Calls pawn out for sheeping (even though pawn HAS been laying out his own points, such as his #191), and again tries to over-simplify Rake's reasoning to make it seem weaker.

All in all, there are A LOT of no-no's in Turaz's responses to pressure.

Btw, do you agree with my #206? Let me know what you think of it and if you have anything to add.

Mod request vote count and prod on Mari777

I agree with it, yeah. While I liked Xiroey's post from the standpoint where it helped me read him, following your advice will help him read other people. No problems with what you had to say there.

And to comment on Turaz's claim. Eh, I think it's kind of null. I mentioned what claiming was and asked some others if they would want him to, never actually intending for him to claim yet. The fact that he did is annoying but not telling. He also just claimed standard vanilla and didn't give any flavour. Nothing much to comment on, doesn't change my read on him.

 

[Kantrip]

@GaGa: Do you think it was townie of Raz to not back down?

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Gracious... trying to keep up with this debate between Ran and Rake is giving me one heck of a headache. It reminds me of a court case between a pair of seasoned lawyers, arguments and counter arguments flying this way in that, fact and fiction tangling together in a messy heap.

And to think we're still in RVS.




I would like to answer some of the questions that you guys have asked me so far, but it's late and I have to get ready for school in the morning.

I appologize for the inactivity, and if I have been holding up the thread by being away.
I should have a considerable amount of free time tomorrow afternoon, so I will write a post adressing each of the questions you all have asked me then.

Later, happy wavedash day.

 

[ranmaru]

I'm sorry it was giving you a headache. I am also wondering why you think we are still in RVS. But ok then. Looking forward to your post, and hopefully some input.

 

[Turazrok]

For one thing K,

Your posts can be hard to decipher. And I'm lazy. Sometimes it's hard to tell what you really want me to answer? IDK I have difficulty understanding you sometimes.

 

[GaGa]

@GaGa: Do you think it was townie of Raz to not back down?

Not necessarily. But it does let me know he's not willing to waste a lynch, and he's confident enough to stand up for it.
It's more town than mafia, for sure.

 

[pawndidater2]

I dare say that the case against Tuz is more than substantial. Is there any reason to put off a lynch for much longer?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

content shortly.

Apologies for it not being up last night but I had more important matters to attend to.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Breaking this into parts for everyone's sanity.

Ok ok, let me clear up one thing then. Was you asking "Kantrip, why are you being nice to me?" NOT alignment related, then? Just a question with no reason for finding scum at all? Just wondering.

Mhm. Just me being curious as I've said about a dozen times now.

I think it's possible you would as scum. I don't know for sure you would have done that, which is why I'm asking you why you asked him. I'm trying to understand your purpose.

Mkay fair enough wrt purpose.

Yet he has been in thread and has even given some reasoning and voted you. Is your vote still 'trying to garner' a reaction from Badwolf? In fact, what is your opinion of his recent actions? If you can form a read on him, why keep a vote on him (if you don't find anything upon a re-read) and I'm looking forward to you re-reading and finding a direction. Also, have you ever voted like this before as town and just left the vote on to pressure someone? Wondering why you are starting now. If you already have a read and enough content from Badwolf to form an opinion, why not just put your vote on someone else to pressure them as well? Just wondering.

No, now it's there mainly due to some of the issue I already questioned Badwulf about, and partially because his responses to me don't make me comfortable letting go of him just yet.

My opinion of recent actions being the ones I already commented on wrt his catch up post, or do you mean to right this minute in the thread ?
If the later, those will be coming in a post after this.

I never said I didn't find anything ?

I've been town way too many times to remember something like that tbqh.

Starting now ? Have I not done it before at all to your knowledge then ,or is that in the sense of you can't remember me doing it either ?

Because I wasn't done re-reading Badwulf and despite him coming back, as I said when I addressed his "wall " return, I wasn't impressed with it, so there wasn't really a reason to move my vote being that I felt that way about it.

Also saying:




Has no good purpose because I didn't say that leaving it on Badwolf for a long time = scum, it fits into your whole play of not doing much in my eyes. Maybe it would be a good question if I said "You are scum for leaving your vote on Badwolf for so long". Yet me asking you if you have done this before and why you have started this if you haven't, is to find out if you really believe what you are doing is doing something, while I think it's you trying to just argue it away.

Ah okay, see as I've said, I didn't see upon Badwulf's return any reason to remove it, my initial objective completed , I could have moved it, but I chose not to after reading Badwulf's wall. I felt and still feel pretty justified in my push against him. Also, you misunderstood the second part of that question, I wasn't asking you whether me leaving my vote on him for an extended period was telling in terms of how i acted in previous games, as you well know I can change my meta from game to game so asking such would be pointless and just why lol, I meant in the sense of : With your scum read on me, why is me leaving my vote on him telling, being that I think by that point I had already told you why it was still there(maybe I am wrong in this, you can correct me if I am). Which you just explained as fitting into your "not doing much" theory.


Why I really did it is exactly the reason I stated before: I wanted to pressure him, my pressure worked (I like to tell myself this xD), and then he showed up, his catch up post didn't impress me , and as such i questioned him on it and kept my vote on him. It's still on him now because I feel pretty confident in my push on him, and my read changing to null scum on him.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

When did you ever push me?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

I say 'regular' meaning whatever amount really, as there isn't a bar. I just mean enough to show that you see something questionable and just question. For example, you never really gave a list of reads until I pressured you. Why didn't you release one before? Did you contribute anything worth reading you before I attacked you?

Ah ok, i thought you meant there was a magic number or something and I'm thinking : ah nope there ain't none of that.
WRT reads, laziness, combined with me only really solidifying some of my reads at that point, plus it fit better into the context of that post regardless since someone( I can't remember who it was) asked me about my read on turaz visa vie what Kantrip had said so i figured if i'm going to mention my Turaz read might as well put the rest of what I have out there at this point.

I think you forget something. We all have to read you. I get you don't want to be the thing that shakes up everything, doing everything for the newbies. I understand. Yet you still have to do enough so I can get a gauge on you.

Fair, I guess I could have done more earlier on and been more forward or vocal, but there's nothing I can really do about that at this point except get my thoughts and pushes out now and defend against a storm arguably of my own making.

DANG IT RAKE WITH THIS ALMOST UNREADABLE PARAGRAPH LOL.

Yeah sorry about that, I actually did put spaces in their, smashboards just smucked it all together for no discernable reason

Ok yes I know I as the prosecutor bring the burden of proof. Yet it's odd when you phrase a question like this "Is it disgusting that _____" and you ask multiple varieties of the same question it's like yo. You are giving too many 'is it possible that ____" kind of questions. Just asking "Why exactly were those questions disgusting?" would suffice, not just go into the next few questions. I feel those were really unneeded and you have given alot of unneeded questions. Sure you and I are known to give alot but this is ALOT for no reason lol.
Now let me get to the point. The quote I gave felt disgusting to me because you seemed to be trying to say I was afraid of saying you were scum as if trying to give all these 'discontent' reasons about your play without really finding you scummy. (When I did say some of the things you did were suspicious, so why would I say that and try not to call you scum in the same post??? ) Does it still seem like I'm trying to say you are scum without saying it? Also, why did you think I would just do all that and be afraid to call you scum?
Yes I say I'm not happy about your play but I'm not saying you have to play up to me but you also have to let others READ you. You say that I'm only reading your early play, so I will ask you this: What parts of your play that you think people should know about, did I miss? Which posts show something readable that I didn't notice? Did this happen after or before I started accusing you of hiding behind your IC role?

Alright, I just wanted to get the point across though. Admittedly it's a lot of the same question but I feel fro mmyPOV they each hold merit as things i have a right to question about.
Can you make this second paragraph a little clearer or concise ? I don't know how to respond to it as is.
I doubt you missed anything. I think my play overall is what people need to concern themselves with, and not just : well early game so, go go go.
How do you mean readable ? if you mean alignment wise , again I'd have to say that the sum of my posts is greater than any individual part.
Eh, probably after in all likelihood. Why ?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Ok, that's the last wall i'm going to exchange with you, Rake. I don't want to flood the game with a ton of walls giving the newbies a hard time in reading and possibly giving disinterest. I'm going to let you have the last word and I want you to explain my questions in that final posts and don't want you to ask more questions which means I would have to reply (It is me accusing you so I want you to EXPLAIN yourself, not ask me a bunch of questions trying to find out why I'm asking them lol). If you really have a question or two just ask in a concise post because I don't want this to continue because I want some opinions from the newbies and others. If we do continue we'll only just distract ourselves from reading others. After we rein in the newbies and such we'll see how it goes. I think I got to the point of my concerns with this recent wall.

Agree?

Fair enough. I think I reined meself in nicely.

Mayhaps we can hunt all the real scum now ?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

1: You mentioned that you were playing somewhat 'passive' for whatever reason. Before you were called out on it your reads were minimal.
2: Before being called out on it, your input was centralized around pressuring other players after they were already being read.
3: After being called out on certain things...your game play changed. Of course you had to post more to defend yourself (which may or may not be justified), but you also started pressuring players on your own.

V V V V

If you have nothing to fear as town, why did your game play change so substantially?

If you're innocent, why do you have to go into such great depths to explain your innocent(i.e. your wall of questions defending your position against Ran, previous responses that delve deeper than simply answering the question posed)? Shouldn't it be as simple as A, B, C?

1: I don't understand how that's a point for or against me ? In point of fact, for early game (RVS), even someone like me doesn't have much to go on My reads being minimal is addressed in my recent post to him , read it and let me know if it changes what you think.

2: Actually, in point of fact that happened once, if i understand your meaning correctly, with Turaz. I was the initial driving force of Pawn's RVS wagon ,and I think one of the first to leave it be , seeing as , as I stated , it was too easy. Turaz mentioning Wulf lurk scum actually wasn't a factor in me voting him , as I recall Turaz mentioned that after I had already had my vote on Wulf for a time. So could you explain where you find me to be pressuring players' that are already read ? I believe you understand that reads will be constantly evolving and changing and the thread goes on, so if I see something i want to know about, that doesn't always imply I'm going to pressure them on everything ever, it could just be wanting clarification on a point from someone to help me understand them better. But maybe i misunderstood your meaning. In what sense did you mean your 2nd point ?

3: I'm not sure how posting more in defense would not be justified, in fact in most cases in goes directly against what a prospective town member should do, if they lie down and take it, or just disappear, that's something telling, because their intent to disappear could be construed as trying to offset the pressure on them by not being as active or by being what I call actively inactive (essentially posting fluff or filler content so that the other player's in the thread don't start to suspect you are avoiding it and thereby the pressure on you. As to the first section I believe Raz has already discussed it wit you so I'll have to defer and re-read what he and you said wrt that.

As to the last point, I'd argue that I had already been pressuring player's on my own, just not in the same visible way as i have done afterwords, none the less, I believe even though it was an RVS wagon, and a pressure vote, it still constitutes pressure.

Would you have felt better about me had my play remained constant and par the accusations leveled against me ?

In terms of my wall, it actually doesn't delve deeper at all from my POV, I'm essentially telling Ran the same thing I previously have, and it really is as simple as I'm making it. Maybe you read my separate defense to him differently though, so could you point out where you felt I had to delve deeper than previously ?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Going to class.

Rake, in your next post please include how I changed from Town to null-town.

I was meta reading you too hard early so I stepped it down , re-asserted and decided to move you to null town.

 

[pawndidater2]

I'm getting the impression that everyone is waiting for Xiroey. There's really nothing else going on.

@Xiroey: Hurry up dawg.

In the meantime, @Everyone: What are you thinking of Rake's defense? Personally I'm letting him drift towards null territory, but I'd like to here your thoughts on him.

 

[pawndidater2]

EBWOP

Ninja'd teh hell outta me. Wait to come out of nowhere after hours of nothingness.

 

[ranmaru]

Rake I'll get to you later.

Pawn I am indeed waiting for Xiroey. He needs to get in here and give his input, or at least try. (I'm sure Raz will give his opinions after Xiroey posts)

 

[Kantrip]

I'm gonna be honest I'm starting to gloss over Rake's content.

Is it worth reading? At this point I just want to deal with him later.

@Rake: Would you lynch Badwolf right now, or have you just been trying to get him involved? Who are we lynching toDay?

 

[ranmaru]

Unvote Vote: Xiroey