Newbie 17 - Breaking Bad Mafia! Game over! Who won?

[VitaminC]

Alright, I'll bite.

Then later, Vitamin jumps on the Ran wagon for ill-explained reasons. When Ran asks him about it, things only get worse from the explanation standpoint, it's pretty clear Vitamin didn't have a really substantial reason other than that me and Zen were for it. I let it go at the time since I wanted all the people on the Ran wagon I could muster and could sort it out later. But now that Ran is confirmed town, this doesn't do Vitamin favors. As I recall saying to Ran once when he brought it up:
Obviously we now know that Ran wouldn't have been an enemy scum to anybody, but Vitamin could have easily been scum with Kary looking for a D1 lynch to pull through.

Now I just have to get off my butt and finish my re-read to make sure this theory holds true for the second half of the game as well.

I had bad feelings about the way Kary was posting towards me from the beginning, but I wrote it off as how he acted. Looking back at those posts, it feels like he was trying to buddy with me. I reacted normally, and I don't see how this immediately incriminates me. The thing is, you haven't called out anything about me; you've only talked about Kary. This doesn't imply we're scumbuddies, I feel that it says he was trying to align himself with me to stay on my good side (and possibly take me down with him if he were to be killed).

Bolded: I'll stick this out here right now - I was on Ranmaru before Zen stated any reasoning, or even voted for him, and quite a bit before your attack on him. I didn't jump on anyone's wagon.
I'll admit my posts were unclear at that point in the game. I did my best to clarify my reasons as time went on.

Underlined: Why does my vote on Ran make me look like scum, but your attempt to build a wagon on him leave you looking townie as can be?

Ok yeah, finished my read-through and nothing in the second half invalidated my previous statements. Vitamin and Kary scum-team seems like the elephant in the room now that Kary is confirmed scum. They always echoed each other's opinions and had strange interactions, especially during the beginning of the day. For instance besides what I already posted, at one point Vitamin had to actually point out that he didn't know why Kary was asking him about his (Kary's) vote since "I don't control who you vote for".

Bolded: As I pointed out above, I believe that Kary was echoing me. I don't recall saying anything was true simply because he said it.

Strange? Yes. I was certainly put off by the way he was treating my posts, especially with all the hate from everyone else on them, but I didn't read into it past that. Again, I thought that was just the way he was. I think my responses to his posts were valid.

I don't see what the last sentence says about me. I brushed off his odd question and moved on.

 

[Jdietz43]

Well I believe you were echoing each other. Or at the very least, Kary was echoing you because you were scum-mates. He seemed to look to you for some things, and you answered. It's the little things that add up, like how once Kary puts the brakes on the Ran votecount worried he'll be quicklynched, you follow etc.

You being on Ran's wagon looks scummy because you never substantiated your reasoning whereas I did. Instead you had interactions such as:

You misunderstand my reasoning. I did not say that not trusting anyone was my justification, nor am I voting for you for that reason alone.

Than restate your reasoning.

I was under the impression you were scum.

The closest you come to an explanation after that is flubbed by the disclaimer that you've heard Ran plays like he does so it may mean nothing. As far as I can tell, this sort of thing was the norm:

And I find new reasons all the time, honey.

I may not have given you said reason, but I had it. Whether or not it took me more posts from you to flesh out my read does not affect my alignment.

(You also didn't have to jump on Ran's wagon, your vote was already there from RVS, so that's null)

I'll be frank: the case on you linked to Kary is quite circumstantial, but it's more than I'm willing to slide by without being quesitoned.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Sorry, it was prom weekend, and I have been SOOOOO preoccupied. This was the last thing on my mind, I really apologize.

 

[VitaminC]

My vote was not random. And I'm not going to argue all of this twice, as I've responded to most of your points through my discussions with Ran. Let me know if there's something you're dying to ask, or if there are any other topics you want to bring up. Otherwise, I'm done with that subject.

A bit of advanced notice here: I'll be V/LA from Wednesday to Sunday for a school trip. I can probably check the thread out a few times, but my responses will be scarce.

 

[Ori_bro]

Why is this so dead :L

He basically hadn't contributed until that point, and needs me to specifically tell him what Vinyl's position was, while making a simultaneous town and scum read on him. Then after I point this out, he says he'll re-read and soon has a case laid out for Vinyl in the span of a few posts. Ok? Sure...

When I have hunch that someone could be scum, why is it so bad to get someone else's opinion? After hearing what you said, I wanted to go back and take a second look at what I thought previously.

When did I even post my opinions on Vinyl other than saying "I can agree to a Vinyl lynch"? Please tell me.

It's also quite hard to ignore statements like how he didn't know there were two mafia factions (even though people have been talking about it in game even), yet was looking at the player list.

Didn't I explained that I didn't know what fire/ice mafia was? Also, I'm not the only one who didn't know about it as well. But look I looked at the Player list which is at the end of the OP and was said by JTB.

Let's not forget Ori seconded a RVS vote on Shotty with Kary at the beginning of the game. I don't think they're scum together, but it's weird to me to have a second vote on someone right away, maybe that's just me. I see a connection between him and Aleate too for posts such as #295.

This irks me a lot.

You're calling me out on a RVS? Really, an RVS?

An RVS it has zero merit, its random, there is no thought put into it. I picked a player at random like everyone else. But just because I chose the same name as someone else entails scum like behavior?

Ori hadn't been doing any contribution. Ori was also the very next post and addressed Aleate in a positive way. So if Ori were to be scum, Aleate would be someone I would look at.

I responded to someone who was talking to me so that in turn entails scumlike behavior? I really wanna know why you used this as a justification. Everyone responds to each other friendly most of the time why do you not view that as scum like?

-----


Moving forward, I hope this thread gets more active. I wanna see those who did next to nothing during D1 talk and give opinions.

until then, FoS JD

 

[Jdietz43]

@Vitamin: Unfortunately your aversion to clear up that issue is what's causing most of the trouble here.



@Ori: Well one would simply need to go to #268-278 as I cited and read it.

Vinyl
This was a tricky one for me, I had to go read through their posts a couple times. For now I'm going to say town, but the way Vinyl has distanced himself from Ran make me think they could be scummates. For now Null-scum

This was the portion I was referring to for those who didn't check.

 

[Jdietz43]

This irks me a lot.

You're calling me out on a RVS? Really, an RVS?

An RVS it has zero merit, its random, there is no thought put into it. I picked a player at random like everyone else. But just because I chose the same name as someone else entails scum like behavior?

And it irks me back to have two votes in back to back posts on the same person, so we're even.

I responded to someone who was talking to me so that in turn entails scumlike behavior? I really wanna know why you used this as a justification. Everyone responds to each other friendly most of the time why do you not view that as scum like?

No, responding to him isn't scummy behavior. I found it strange that he made a positive opinion of you that I found false, and filed it away for future reference as a possible connection. I recall getting the vibe at the time that your interaction was particularly cordial, so I bring it up now in case it's beneficial. Speak my mind on it no matter how slight rather than sit. (plus I will use literally any excuse to get Aleate to post more or be directly involved in discussion no matter how roundabout, I'm sure you agree)

 

[Axel]

Vote: Vitamin

 

[Vinylic.]

What caught your eye into voting vitamin this time?

 

[Axel]

He stuck to his early "reasoning" on Ranmaru the entire day. I didn't say much about it at the time because I wanted to keep the pressure on Ranmaru, but his logic didn't make any sense at all.

Axel why you hatin' on me bro? ):<

This will be my first "actual" mafia game (I had to replace out of another Newbie game on D1).

@Ranmaru: And a talkative, active town has just as much potential to be scum at this point as a quiet, lurky town. Possibly even more so. Then again, you've played much more than I have. I doubt you'd say something like that on accident. What is your meaning behind that statement? Do you trust active players more?

Vote: Ranmaru

This is where he first votes Ranmaru because Ranmaru states towards Kary, "I like your enthusiasm man. An talkative, active town is better than a quiet, lurky town." Ran doesn't say anything about trusting Kary here, but Vitamin twists Ran's post into that. I thought at first that he could just be trying to get the ball rolling, but the fact that he stuck to it later on shows that is not the case






Here he and Ran go back and forth about his reasoning on hias vote:

You misunderstand my reasoning. I did not say that not trusting anyone was my justification, nor am I voting for you for that reason alone.

Than restate your reasoning.

I was under the impression you were scum.

Post#1: Yes he did. As shown above. Ran questions him on this and Vitamin cannot come up with new reasoning as shown in post#3. He simply states he thought he was scum, but he doesn't give a reason at all and he never actually answer this. This third post is probably the scummiest response I have seen all game.






Let's move onto something I mentioned earlier:

I was under the impression that the Shotty wagon was just to pull some activity out of him and create some discussion.

Kary is null leaning scum to me right now.

It didn't strike me to do so at the time. I figured I could respond to it as it became more prominent, i.e. Shotty actually posts.

The only reason I have for Kary leaning scum is his attempt to start a wagon so early. It seems as though he's already trying to move attention to someone other than him and get the town on his side. Although as I write this post, I realise it's not really any kind of scumtell. But meh. My suspicion remains.

Well, I actually think a wagon could be useful at this point. Yes, I am changing my opinion after like two posts. Oh well lol.
I think you're after information, not a lynch, as I've said.
I don't quite understand the reasoning of this question. I think it might somewhat undermine your wagon on Shotty, though.

He altered his line of thought to best respond to each question Ran put at him. In one line of thought Vitamin perceives the the shotty wagon as a lynch attempt, thus is his justification for finding Kary scummy. In the other line of thought he sees the shotty wagon as an attempt to gain information.

Vitamin answered to this earlier and stated that the two are mutually exclusive, but I'm just not seeing how that is the case. This to me is flat out contradiction based on him tailoring his posts to Ranmaru's questioning.

 

[Vinylic.]

Yoooooooooo, that is so solid.

Vote: VitaminC

Orangy bandwagon, But not yet.
I wanna see what's his response will be.

 

[Ori_bro]

Very nice work Zen.

Vote: Vitamin C

 

[Jdietz43]

Awwww, Zen is still way better at this than I am...

Oh well lol, at least I had the right idea even if I couldn't convey it as convincingly

Vote: Vitamin

 

[Ori_bro]

Vitamin is now at L2 if I counted correctly.

Request Mod Count

 

[JTB]

GLG, th3kuzinator, Shottymaster, and Aleate have been prodded


With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch!
Deadline 4/30, 11:59 PM EST

Vinyl. [1] Aleate
Aleate [0]
Ori_bro [0]
o-Serin-o [0]
GLG [0]
VitaminC [4] Zen, Vinyl, Ori_bro, Jdietz
Shottymaster [0]
Jdietz [0]
Zen [0]
th3kuzinator [0]

Not voting: o-Serin-o, GLG, Shottymaster., th3kuzinator, VitaminC

 

[Jdietz43]

GLG, th3kuzinator, Shottymaster, and Aleate have been prodded

Loooooooooooool

 

[Ori_bro]

So many prods :x

 

[Jdietz43]

Inb4 entire Ice Mafia is inactive

 

[Axel]

Each of you on the Vitamin wagon I'd like for you to explain which parts of the case you agree with/why it makes him scummy in your own words.

 

[Jdietz43]

I assume my previous posts make my reasons clear?

 

[Axel]

I assume my previous posts make my reasons clear?

Sum it up for me. If you had felt he was scummy why didn't you vote him until after 3 others did?

Inb4 entire Ice Mafia is inactive

>.> What about the fire mafia >.>?

 

[Jdietz43]

Sum it up for me. If you had felt he was scummy why didn't you vote him until after 3 others did?

Because I just ML'd Ran after a hard rally, it was making me hesitant to call things too quickly this time around. The contradiction evidence was solid enough to counteract the fact I felt Vitamin's first reply weren't entirely awful. (his second sucked)

Essentially I think he's scum with Kary based on various tells Kary dropped and his behavior which I outlined previously. He also never adequately substantiated his reads on Ran, and still doesn't want to, and was the only one of the early wagon adopters never to explain themselves. After that, you fingered an exact contradiction to make this more solid.

Re-read both of my paragraphs for specifics.

>.> What about the fire mafia >.>?

Vitamin basically has to be scum-mates with Kary if he's scum in my eyes. He's already accounted for.

 

[VitaminC]

I'm leaving tomorrow, so let's get all the arguments against me out as soon as possible.

He stuck to his early "reasoning" on Ranmaru the entire day. I didn't say much about it at the time because I wanted to keep the pressure on Ranmaru, but his logic didn't make any sense at all.
This is where he first votes Ranmaru because Ranmaru states towards Kary, "I like your enthusiasm man. An talkative, active town is better than a quiet, lurky town." Ran doesn't say anything about trusting Kary here, but Vitamin twists Ran's post into that. I thought at first that he could just be trying to get the ball rolling, but the fact that he stuck to it later on shows that is not the case

...

He simply states he thought he was scum, but he doesn't give a reason at all and he never actually answer this.

Bolded: This is bull. I didn't "hang on to my reasoning," as you seem to enjoy portraying it.

I continuously read and analyzed his posts and made responses based on them.
You pointed out the same flaw in Ranmaru's logic in that statement as I did. I fail to see where your point is valid while mine is not. And as I've said at least three times by now, my vote at that point was not to get him lynched, nor was there any "logical" approach to my vote on him. It was a pressure vote and a gut reaction to his play up until that point - I challenged his viewpoint and it gave me a reaction. I didn't move my vote because I didn't feel there was any better place for it, and I wanted to keep him talking instead of dropping my discussion with him and moving on.

As to the second statement, you can't be serious. You're honestly saying I never once provided any reasoning for my vote?

I like how you obviously only read the second half of my #106. There's some reasoning on Ran at that point in the game, and there are plenty of other posts that back up my decision to keep my vote on him (this, for example). I'd like you to give me actual reasons on why the things I said were scummy instead of just quoting and saying "Hey guys this is scummy listen to me." Your only reasons are the same as Ran's, and you disagreed with him. Your play confuses me.

And let's move on to the Kary situation.

He altered his line of thought to best respond to each question Ran put at him. In one line of thought Vitamin perceives the the shotty wagon as a lynch attempt, thus is his justification for finding Kary scummy. In the other line of thought he sees the shotty wagon as an attempt to gain information.

Vitamin answered to this earlier and stated that the two are (sic) mutually exclusive, but I'm just not seeing how that is the case. This to me is flat out contradiction based on him tailoring his posts to Ranmaru's questioning.

I don't see how it's not the case. Kary was trying to create discussion and generate information, but his intentions were not to the benefit of the town. He picked a random person and fired off an attempted wagon at them to get people off his trail and on someone else's. Contrary to your point, my idea was not that Shotty was to be lynched, but to be targeted. It's not contradictory. You say that changing my opinion is a bad thing, but I don't see the logic in that statement. I had different answers for different questions because they made me think about something that hadn't previously crossed my mind.
Bolded: Please explain this line, I'm having trouble seeing your point. I didn't "tailor" my responses to his questions, what does that have to do with anything?

I'm not sure about you, Zen. I think you're on me personally, using how I say things instead of what I say as an example of scumminess. I'd really like to hear from everyone why there's so much trust for him and his opinions, and why there's not a single doubt as to his alignment.

JDietz: I'm not going to elaborate any further on my thought process with Ranmaru because I don't feel like it will matter. He's already flipped, so anything I say would be tainted. I'm rather confused as to what you want me to say, because as far as I understand the situation, my reasons for voting Ranmaru are nil since his lynch.

Vinyl: Why do you ignore the constant suspicion on you? Your only response was to Aleate, and it was very unsubstantial. Why did you let JDietz push you into a lynch against someone you felt sure was town? I haven't seen you produce a real counterargument yet.

 

[Axel]

Koo koo I don't think you answered #600 btw.

 

[Axel]

^@ dietz

 

[Jdietz43]

Didn't think #600 was something I had to be answering lol, I asked for your opinion and you gave it to me.

Aleate feelings came from the fact he posted in the first page of posts period. Simply seeing his name before I had seen D2 was astonishing to me. Ori was much more pronounced and posting multiple times.


@Vitamin:
Zen isn't a saint, but he's showing his work and giving solid evidence to back up his reasoning while doing good hunting. You're mistaking us not actively attempting to lynch Zen with not paying attention to the possibility he's scum.

As for me I want you to clear things up because you've done all this talking and I still don't understand what the hell was going on between you and Ran at the start of the game and beyond, or why your interactions with Kary look so stilted. Refusing to only makes me think you have something to hide. Like: Someone raise their hand if you think you know exactly what Vitamin's stances were and why throughout D1... and I don't think there will be many hands.

If you're saying that you don't understand why we all care about your reasons now after Ran already got lynched: then let me explain. We want to know what your thought process was at the time, because if you didn't have a substantial one in order to vote Ran, you were most likely scum looking for a nice lynch for the day and to move on with your life.

 

[VitaminC]

It makes sense why you want it, I just don't see how post-lynch testimonies should be trusted, or how it will change anything. And my intention in saying I want to drop it wasn't to deny anyone information. I'd just prefer specific questions that I can answer over the repetition of an argument that I've already dealt with once.

At any rate, I will say I was often confused by Ran's questions and stances, and this put me off a little bit. I couldn't understand what he wanted from me a lot of the time. As such, my reasoning on Ran is a bit of a jumble.

• His push on me, coming only a couple posts after him saying he liked me, made me suspicious. This was also a complete 180 from his previous thought that I was answering his questions well, which is part of the next point.
• His reason for attacking me was a big one, as he simply felt I wasn't defending myself properly or answering questions in the way he wanted.
• He brought up claims that he didn't elaborate on or provide evidence for (my use of "buzz words" and my lack of "reading his intentions" instead of his posts; this is from #205).
• I think his stances in #205 and #206 were ridiculous and unfounded at that point in the game, and I felt that his attempts to throw me under the bus without any responses from me were too heavily focused (his constant hints that I should be looked into further, that I should be a prime suspect after his flip, etc).
• The way he spoke about/to Vinyl also made me very uncomfortable. His "town town town" reads threw me off, as though he wanted to WIFOM us all with a "Why w]ould I make it that obvious?"
• It felt like his posts were just generic and confusing enough to make his alignment ambiguous, and it made me not want to trust him.

If this doesn't clarify something, please ask. I'd rather not be misunderstood if I'm lynched.

 

[Axel]

Vitamin the thing is that was your reason for voting Ran. As much as you say it wasn't.

You called him out on trusting active people and then voted him the same post. It's pretty clear that that was your reasoning. Then you claimed that not to be your only reasoning and when Ran asked you what your was then, you didn't have an answer.

At any rate Unvote for now. I need to review this player list.

 

[Axel]

1. Vinyl.
2. Aleate
3. Ori_bro
4. o-Serin-o
5. GLG
6. VitaminC
7. Shottymaster
8. Jdietz
9. Kary
10. Zen
11. th3kuzinator
12. Ranmaru

What the hell I completely forgot about glg.

Hm yeah

Vote: glg

Reasoning incoming.

 

[Jdietz43]

I can accept your later reasoning for voting Ran as fine, but I can't get over the fact that you flip flopped your views on Kary specifically when speaking with Ran and were reluctant to explain yourself during the initial phases of the game. No one was asking you trick questions or anything, just "what do you think Kary is aiming for", and "why do you think Ran is scum". It's ok for your opinions to change over time, but it's not ok to refuse to acknowledge that fact either actively when people ask or passively when you contradict yourself at a later date without explanation as to why it's a change rather than a lie you forgot about.

I'm less confident about this than I was with Ran, but you are definitely the best candidate for now.

 

[Jdietz43]

Alright, I'll be interested to see what you've got. GLG seemed gruff and insistent on Kary, but I don't remember much else about him.


Vote: Aleate

I want to hear way way more out of you. Can we get some opinions on Vitamin and Ori?

 

[Axel]

I'm ok with Vitamin right now. He's done some scummy things, but his defenses are logically sound to me.

wrt glg well:

With the Aleate post, I find it rather scummy that he made a post calling someone town on meta so early in the game. Yes, Aleate might think that He is town and that we shouldn't lynch him, but that's not the tone I got from it. I feel like he's using that to buddy someone without any reason that way someone other than Aleate would be willing to defend Aleate in the event that Aleate came into the top lynch spot. I don't like that post and It's putting Aleate on my Radar right behind Ranmaru.

You on the other hand. There's you. Oh there's you. I'm onto you lemon, I'm onto you. Watch out.

@Vitamin, Ranmaru is the scummiest so far this game, followed by Aleate. Ranmaru's questions don't seem to be helpful to me and seem to be there just so that he seems active and that he seems to be helping town when in reality the majority of his questions are yes or no questions that could be answered if he actually read the post he was addressing instead of just replying with the first thought that he has. Also, his post that put various people in different lynch pools was fishy. I think it's ridiculous to think that someone has actual reads on every player in a game so early on. Also, he has Ori and Zen as "null-scum", and yet their in different lynch groups. Kuz and I are both Null for not posting when he made that post, yet we're also in different lynch groups. Actually backtracking a little bit he said he had no intention of lynching Zen even though Zen was a null scum read. I don't know about all y'all, but if I thinkt aht someone is at least a little bit scum I'd be wanting to lynch them partially during a day, and not write them off as to be not lynched today.

Not too elaborate but lolwut @the bold. I'd recommend everyone else take a look through all of glg's posts. (You can do so be clicking the search > go advanced > and then use his name in the right search bar). There's not that many. The bolded was so out there. I mean it's not always so great to scum hunt based on connections to other players, but this stuck out to me.

@Vitamin: Please keep being town.

Also glg this was random and you never explained it.

 

[Shottymaster]

Inb4 entire Ice Mafia is inactive

Oddly specific?

 

[Axel]

Shotty full reads lists with reasons go go go.

 

[Jdietz43]

Oddly specific?

Oddly unhelpful?

 

[Alacion]

Not sure what to think about Vitamin. Could go either way for me.

I don't think Ori_bro not knowing about the two mafia factions is such a huge deal.

I only decided to vote right after the night because I wasn't going to be active a few days afterwards.

 

[Jdietz43]

Can you dig down a little deeper and give some more elaborate opinions?

 

[Axel]

Guys this inactivity pains me

 

[Ori_bro]

Guys this inactivity pains me

Yup, and I just got on summer vacation so I have all the free time to focus on this.

 

[Axel]

#619 for you