Newbie 13: Organization XIII Mafia ~Town Wins!~

[Lore]

I didn't say that you were doing that; I simply said that I don't like the fact that the possibility is there. That's all.

Anyway, I've gotta go for a while, so I'm expecting to get lynched. My current reads are Panta, SW, and Kuz, in that order, leaning scum. Panta for obvious reasons, SW just because she was being defensive earlier, and Kuz because he's basically playing like a player in the last game I played who ended up being scum. Panta is the only one I'm completely ok with lynching right now, and the other two are barely leaning scum. Heck, they're close to null.

If Panta flips town, I would go for SW, with Kuz as a possible scum mate. Garg could be as well, since it's entirely possible that SW was attempting an early bus. All other players are such non-presences at this point that I have no idea what to make of them.

Consider this my last will and testament if I get lynched, since I don't have time for another reply. If you guys really want to mislynch this badly, I'll make it easier for you.

Unvote

Vote: Werekill

 

[th3kuzinator]

Panta has been playing incredibly dumb but he reads town, trust me on that. You equally dislike Werekill rght? Not only is he most likely flipping scum I'm gonna get so many connection reads regardless of his flip its not even funny. We'll role into a great D2 regardless of his flip, which will most likely be scum.

Panta lynch gives me next to nothing and he reads pretty brownie.

 

[th3kuzinator]

And then the self vote.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...Fair enough.

Vote: Werekill

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

*Unvote, Vote: Werekill

Kuz is right. Neither player is particularly smart or particularly town, and although I personally see Panta as worse, I agree that we learn more from a Werekill lynch.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Will hammer tomorrow night probably.

Want to here from our 3 questionables.

 

[Lore]

Whaaatever. Just realize that it is very much a mislynch.

Also, if Panta flips scum later, I suggest that you guys look at Kuz. Heck, even look at him now.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Panta and SW are town, Werekill. If you want to have at it with me then lets go. The only reasoning you've presented thus far is that I've played similarly to scum in another game.

@BPC: How does Werekill's self vote read to you?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Highly anti-town. Just like any moves like that.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

I also don't like how SW keeps assuming that scumhunting makes a person town. A good scum player will likely hunt plenty, imo. This isn't a scumtell, of course, but I'm mentioning it anyway.

Well, it's as Kuzi said earlier: if the mafia try to scum-hunt a lot, then it leads to different directions when they are killed and they don't want to unknowingly lead people to his partner's demise. I understand what you are saying, and I will try to keep that in mind, but, right now, I don't really have anything else to go off of besides feelings from posts.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Anyway, I've gotta go for a while, so I'm expecting to get lynched.

I was really hoping you would respond to my earlier post that you promised to but what-evs. If you're even still there, is there a reason that you never replied?

Garg could be as well, since it's entirely possible that SW was attempting an early bus.

What the frick does that even mean? Explain that for me, please.

 

[Panta]

Bussing is when a Mafia member votes his partner and makes a claim against said partner in the hopes that he will gain town cred after his partner is lynched and he "found" scum.

Two things that Mafia members can do for credit. Lynch one of their own through bussing, or stop a mislynch on a townie.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Ahhh. Okay. I thought that was called something else. Thanks.

 

[Gova]

1.) Shadow Moth ()
2.) SangfroidWarrior (1) SM
3.) Panta ()
4.) pheonix561 ()
5.) gargaglione ()
6.) Budget Player Cadet_ (1) Panta
7.) Werekill (4) SangfroidWarrior, Gargaglione, Werekill, BPC
8.) Zen ()
9.) th3kuzinator ()
Not voting - phoenix, Zen, Kuz

With 9 playing, it takes 5 to lynch!

Deadline is July 24th at 11:59 PM EST (GMT-5).

 

[Xivii]

I dislike Kuz directing the PRs.

 

[th3kuzinator]

That's all you have to say with all that has been going on recently?

Try a bit harder than just making sideshow commentary.

 

[Xivii]

I had other games to reply to. I will be back to post my thoughts here later. I think you and Smoth are the most suspicious.

 

[Lore]

Panta and SW are town, Werekill. If you want to have at it with me then lets go. The only reasoning you've presented thus far is that I've played similarly to scum in another game.

I also said that you were close to being null. I just don't like the fact that you've been asking for a bunch of opinions while only giving a few original ones of your own. The main bit of original interaction is when you slapped the vote on me, but other than that, you really haven't done much other than ask for other people's opinions. I don't like that at all, and it's exactly what another scum did in a previous game.

And before you ask, yes, I've read the thread.

Also, why are you so sure that Panta is town? He's done plenty of questionable things, so why the certainty?

I was really hoping you would respond to my earlier post that you promised to but what-evs. If you're even still there, is there a reason that you never replied?

I wasn't going to reply because I saw my cause as hopeless, but I'll reply soon if I can.

In fact, in the interest of continuing the day and preventing ninja hammers, I'll Unvote.

By the way, since in my previous game I got suspicion for not throwing on a vote on someone who I'm questioning, I'll Vote: th3kuzinator. Voting like this to make it clear who you're against is the right thing to do, correct?

 

[th3kuzinator]

I also said that you were close to being null. I just don't like the fact that you've been asking for a bunch of opinions while only giving a few original ones of your own. The main bit of original interaction is when you slapped the vote on me, but other than that, you really haven't done much other than ask for other people's opinions. I don't like that at all, and it's exactly what another scum did in a previous game.

All of this is blatantly false. I've explained time and time again why it is. For all the questioning that i have done, who has also provided the most content out of any player in the game? Me.

However if you are so inclined to take this route then please do. Since you're complaining about my lack of opinions ask me some questions that you want to know about my stance. Take the initiative. Do something. Don't just sit there and pout that I haven't done anything, when I clearly have.

Also I know you have only one game to reference, but not everyone plays scum the same way so using that as an argument is a fallacy.

@Zen: Have you ever ICd before? I'm not directing the PRs. As for the cop, I'm giving them a template for my suspicions. Feel free to give a template based on yours and we'll let the actual PR picks.

It's also customary in previous newbie games I've read for the doc to wifom the two ICs Night1 so that they will both be alive until at least the end of D2 to keep providing information.

What's your reasoning for the SMoth hate? He's one of my candidates out of the 4 so I'm curious to to what you have on him.

 

[Lore]

All of this is blatantly false. I've explained time and time again why it is. For all the questioning that i have done, who has also provided the most content out of any player in the game? Me.

However if you are so inclined to take this route then please do. Since you're complaining about my lack of opinions ask me some questions that you want to know about my stance. Take the initiative. Do something. Don't just sit there and pout that I haven't done anything, when I clearly have.

Just because you're posting some content doesn't excuse the fact that questions for other stances and such are your main post topics, and those questions, in my eyes, don't truly count as content. Take them out, and you become an average, if not slightly below average, contributor.

And yes, you have explained it. Lemme quote for reference.

Also, strong town games are won in LYLO not on D1. I always ask tons of questions to others early game to set up a framework of reads that players can look back to later in the game. Lots of discussion is always a pro-town move because it puts information out on the table to be referenced later once we have some concrete information (flips).

Since D1 we literally have no concrete information I'm utilizing my time to create information that makes re-reads fruitful as well as hunting scum.

Sang and I already had this exact same conversation in which she accused me of not contributed any content of my own to which I already responded and provided a complied reads list.

Just because I'm asking lots of questions doesn't mean I havn't said anything of my own. It's all there in the thread.

Also I'm taking Moth off of my leaning town list and putting him back in null.

So basically your plan is to ask a bunch of questions to start discussions in order to get out info out of other people with the least amount of personal effort possible? I still don't really like it; it seems like a way to make yourself look way more active than you really are.

And the "It's not like I haven't said anything of my own" argument doesn't apply when you've only posted a few things among a sea of questions. I COULD check the thread and tally up numbers, but I really don't have time to do it.

Also I know you have only one game to reference, but not everyone plays scum the same way so using that as an argument is a fallacy.

True, and I shall stop using that argument from here on out, but the rest of my points still stand because I find them to be scummy in general.

One other part I wish to comment on:

It's also customary in previous newbie games I've read for the doc to wifom the two ICs Night1 so that they will both be alive until at least the end of D2 to keep providing information.

Isn't it entirely possible that one or both IC's are scum, and a doc protect would be wasted? I don't like the fact that you're trying to direct the doc in this game to protect an IC, which will likely be you since Zen is inactive and you seem to be more useful. There's about a 2/9 chance that one of you is scum, and the fact that you are pushing for a doc protect solely on the basis that you are an IC is scummy, in my eyes.

 

[th3kuzinator]

You haven't read the thread at all.

You haven't even looked at the conversation I had with Sang about her questioning my amount of content and it followed with a read list. That or you're selectively choosing not to quote them.

Again, your argument is that I haven't been posting enough content and have been hiding in the questions. What do you feel that I haven't already contributed that you want to know. I've been pretty vocal about all my stances and my reasoning for having them throughout the game and anything you want to know I'll be here to answer. I can't even comprehend how you think I haven't given or provided opportunities to give more content.

As for your "Oh I could tally them up but I won't because I don't have time." I dare you to. Even removing the questions (which is still content jfyi) I have more content than everyone except possibly Sang.

And besides the sheer odds due to numbers that both ICs getting scum would be improbably, the mods would probably re-randomize the roles if both ICs were to get scum. That's why I asked to doc to literally flip a coin between Zen and myself. I'm not asking for the doc protect hurr durr.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

I wasn't going to reply because I saw my cause as hopeless, but I'll reply soon if I can.

Thank you. Even if it is hopeless, which it might not be, at least it would qualm me, because I have been wonderring about it for days and it's one of the reasons that a few of us, or at least me, think you're scum.

There's about a 2/9 chance that one of you is scum, and the fact that you are pushing for a doc protect solely on the basis that you are an IC is scummy, in my eyes.

Alright, I'm not saying that it's not scummy, but the entire point of an IC is to help us newbies. If one, or both, of them are dead early on, us newbies can't ask them questions we have.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

I really hope the others that have been mostly quiet start posting content soon as well. There's only a little over a day left and we need some information... soon.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Or... more than a day. THe 24th. Whoops... Wait, I thought it said the 23rd for the longest time? Maybe not. Never mind. Regardless, they should post soon.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Oh would you look at that we have 2 days not 1, read the deadline wrong.

Wagon switch still possible. Interested to see what Zen has to say on the matter.

Werekill I'm not putting the stake in your coffin by any means, but if you want to survive this day phase I want you in here putting time into the thread. Show me you have some initiative.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Zen. If I didn't know any better I'd say you're avoiding the thread.

This is a crucial time to figure out if we're switching wagons. Werekill's self vote looked pretty frustrated townie-esque and I'm sure you'd agree with this sentiment assuming you've read the thread. At this point I'm having trouble seeing Werekill flip scum but his flip still matters to me for connections.

I was actually considering a wagon switch predicated on what you had to say in your catchup. Why didn't you post something after I expressed interest in switching wagons? You know just as well as I do that any further stallout on content won't give us enough time to take that option before deadline.

Where are you?

 

[th3kuzinator]

Werekill explain to me your justification for your vote on me and argue my lynch asap or move on with your life and put your vote on someone that matters.

I'm willing to work with you here because I realize we have more time than I previously thought. Panta and MS aren't scum, trust my read on them. BPC and Garg probably aren't scum but they're weaker reads. Still don't want any of the above mentioned lynches toDay though.

That leaves Zen, Smoth, and Phoenix.

I have no problem with your lynch just on the fact that I will gain tons of information regardless of alignment. However I'm starting to lean towards the probability that you aren't flipping scum and am willing to rethink this while we still have time to.

Who out of the above three names is the scummiest and why? They don't have to be a scum pick of yours but if you had to choose one out of the three.

 

[Xivii]

I agree with Werekill being the play. He seems very inconsistant and forced. His backing out and following Pheonix in saying that his SW was just for pressure for one. When he voted Panta it seemed it seemed out of place like he was just trying to put his vote somewhere. Everytime he votes it's like he has to keep forcing that suspicion and finding new reasons, instead of looking at the person objectively. He did that with Sang, Panta, and now Kooz. He has recently stated that his strongest scum read is Panta and has a slight suspicion on Kooz. But then I come in here voicing suspicion on Kooz and he jumps right on that.

So yeah I think he's the play, and his flip is something I'd like to see.

Panta I am weary about, but I really liked his big post. I could follow most of his reasoning. Though I don't understand his town read on me. And I disliked his pitty post.


Kooz: It's funny that you're saying you weren't directing the PRs when you used that exact word in your post. Yes, you are directing.

I have both been in and read newbie games. "It's also customary in previous newbie games I've read" doesn't make sense. Because they did it in games you've read doesn't make it customary. Even if it were, since when have we played by customs over thinking for ourselves. I disagree with directing doc to 50/50 on the ICs. First off, roles are completely randomized. Two ICs can be scum. 1 IC can be scum. No ICs can be scum. So by trying to point them essential to the end of d2, you're basically giving them a free pass and restricting town's possible scum lynches. Second, doc directing in general is bad as you're giving scum a 100% chance of making a Night Kill since they know where the doc would be. If you let well enough a lone, scum probably wouldn't target the ICs anyway from fear of one of them being protected. In that situation though, the doc isn't being directed and they could very much protect anyone else.

Cop directing in this situation is no good either. If you're scum, you could easily be keeping the cop away from investigating you or your buddy. And with your credibility as an IC, a newbie cop would very likely follow your direction. You aren't cleared and this is no reason to trust your direction. Cop should follow their own reads.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Oh there you are.

 

[Xivii]

*put them as essential

 

[Xivii]

Zen. If I didn't know any better I'd say you're avoiding the thread.

This is a crucial time to figure out if we're switching wagons. Werekill's self vote looked pretty frustrated townie-esque and I'm sure you'd agree with this sentiment assuming you've read the thread. At this point I'm having trouble seeing Werekill flip scum but his flip still matters to me for connections.

I was actually considering a wagon switch predicated on what you had to say in your catchup. Why didn't you post something after I expressed interest in switching wagons? You know just as well as I do that any further stallout on content won't give us enough time to take that option before deadline.

Where are you?

Cute .

 

[th3kuzinator]

Or you could be scum not wanting the cop to investigate you or your partner. WIFOM works both ways Zen.

And you know my stance on the doc protect is just to keep the ICs alive to be able to have them answer questions. As important as one Night is for a doc protect, having both of us alive to continue our job as ICs on D2 is a bigger priority. Don't try to spin that as anything different.

As for the cop. I'm giving my template for the people I think will most likely give a guilty result. I stated in my post that it was 100% up the cop himself to choose a target. I'm just giving my two cents on the subject, analogous to just openly stating my scum reads. Instead of complaining that I shouldn't be giving my opinion, why don't you state yours?

 

[th3kuzinator]

I agree with Werekill being the play. He seems very inconsistant and forced. His backing out and following Pheonix in saying that his SW was just for pressure for one. When he voted Panta it seemed it seemed out of place like he was just trying to put his vote somewhere. Everytime he votes it's like he has to keep forcing that suspicion and finding new reasons, instead of looking at the person objectively. He did that with Sang, Panta, and now Kooz. He has recently stated that his strongest scum read is Panta and has a slight suspicion on Kooz. But then I come in here voicing suspicion on Kooz and he jumps right on that.

Agreed.

However, thoughts on that self vote. Don't think he's experienced enough to do that as scum without being told by his scummate. Since I didn't do it and you obviously didn't do it since you're still pushing for his lynch, looks pretty genuine wouldn't you say?

And no, you have no other evidence than my word that I'm not his scummate.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Also, would scumWerekill attack me at that opportune time where I could have hammered him on a whim? Attack the swing vote at L-1? That's like putting a nail in your coffin. Reads that he actually thinks I'm scum and wanted pressure on me after he flipped. Too inefficient of a move as scum knowing that the only way he would survive that day was with my support and the fact that his scum flip would just further clear me?

Nah

 

[Lore]

Blah blah blah blah b-blah from Kuz

Werekill explain to me your justification for your vote on me and argue my lynch asap or move on with your life and put your vote on someone that matters.

Well, I actually don't want your lynch toDay. I was just looking over your stuff and didn't like the sheer amount of questions, so I started looking into you.

How about this: I drop this for now and move on to people who actually need to be lynched toDay, unless you start asking way too many questions again. You're doing better now, in that regard, so I don't see a need to press it much further unless something else comes up.

Unvote

I'm willing to work with you here because I realize we have more time than I previously thought. Panta and MS aren't scum, trust my read on them. BPC and Garg probably aren't scum but they're weaker reads. Still don't want any of the above mentioned lynches toDay though.

That leaves Zen, Smoth, and Phoenix.

I have no problem with your lynch just on the fact that I will gain tons of information regardless of alignment. However I'm starting to lean towards the probability that you aren't flipping scum and am willing to rethink this while we still have time to.

Who out of the above three names is the scummiest and why? They don't have to be a scum pick of yours but if you had to choose one out of the three.

Honestly? They've all pretty much been non-presences the entire game, and I wouldn't mind lynching one to get rid of an inactive who could be a liability and get info. Who knows; we might even get lucky and hit scum.

Phoenix has been the worst offender, so let's go with him, I guess. Agreed?

 

[th3kuzinator]

I'm not saying you're off the hook by any means Werekill.

If we're switching, we're switching because we gain more from that lynch than we do yours. In terms of just lynching inactives, we gain much more info from your lynch than theirs just by sheer amount of information. However if we hit scum we will inevitably gain more information from than from that your flip (assuming you flip town).

Long story short, if we switch we're doing it because we think we have a high probability of hitting scum, not because we're hunting inactives.

Thats where you come in.

You're on the chopping block right now and I'm giving you a good chance to redeem yourself. I'm also going to do a quick re-read tonight or tomorrow to settle my thoughts but I want you to re-read and give me a good reasoning on another player as to why we should lynch them and not you. If I agree with what you've said we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

 

[Lore]

Honestly, I think you have a point. I can say that I'm town all day, but you guys can't know for sure until a flip. I can't think of anyone other than me who could give info on connections, other than SW.

Panta is suspicious, but he doesn't have too many connections to anybody. Same for everyone else, really.

If I flipped scum, what would that mean to you guys? Or what if I flip town (which I will)?

 

[Xivii]

Or you could be scum not wanting the cop to investigate you or your partner. WIFOM works both ways Zen.

lol no it doesn't. I'm not directing cop, you are lmao.

And you know my stance on the doc protect is just to keep the ICs alive to be able to have them answer questions. As important as one Night is for a doc protect, having both of us alive to continue our job as ICs on D2 is a bigger priority. Don't try to spin that as anything different.

I'm not trying to spin it as anything it isn't. It is what it is, and that is anti-town.

As for the cop. I'm giving my template for the people I think will most likely give a guilty result. I stated in my post that it was 100% up the cop himself to choose a target. I'm just giving my two cents on the subject, analogous to just openly stating my scum reads. Instead of complaining that I shouldn't be giving my opinion, why don't you state yours?

That was more than two cents. "the choice is yours cop but you should listen to me because im an IC and it will be worth your while but yeah you dont have to if you don't want to :o" is how I see it.

 

[Panta]

Honestly, I think you have a point. I can say that I'm town all day, but you guys can't know for sure until a flip. I can't think of anyone other than me who could give info on connections, other than SW.

Panta is suspicious, but he doesn't have too many connections to anybody. Same for everyone else, really.

If I flipped scum, what would that mean to you guys? Or what if I flip town (which I will)?

As has been discussed earlier, if you flip scum that would basically clear Phoenix. If you flipped town, Phoenix could be town or scum.

Not so much on anyone else I think. :\

 

[Xivii]

Agreed.

However, thoughts on that self vote. Don't think he's experienced enough to do that as scum without being told by his scummate. Since I didn't do it and you obviously didn't do it since you're still pushing for his lynch, looks pretty genuine wouldn't you say?

And no, you have no other evidence than my word that I'm not his scummate.

Kooz that's wine. Plenty of people have self voted: scum, town, new, experienced. It's not some advanced technique.