new tier list

[SKidd]

wait, another tier list is coming out??

 

[dablackpacman]

doc is simply a better partner then mario bcuz his fair is a better killer then anything mario has with the exception of mario's uair which is a lil harder to land. not to mention dat doc's bair is better. but overall, mario's comboing ability is far more fierce then doc's. maining with link, i have never had trouble playing doc, in fact he's one of me favorite match-ups. but mario on the other hand, if he get inside of me, he can rack up a good 30-80% dmg and if a good edgeguard follows up, it can cost me stock. doc cant quite punish like that

 

[MarioMariox2]

Recoveries in this game are pretty bad on the whole tbh.

Let's talk Smash64.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

j3ly is back! I didn't see u post in awhile and I got super scared

Don't be mislead by Mario's "better" recovery, it is still absolute trash.

lol right. I think J3ly said it all but I have to add in shroomed's MM on YS where he used mario's up+B wall jump glitch to get back on stage multiple times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwKIAMZm3wQ&feature=related#t=2m23s
also used in another match in the same set
very situational I'll admit, but still can be used effectively in a match, as seen here

 

[condemned_soul]

lol moose i was so weak back then you cant compare that to me now because if you play thinking i play like that, then you WILL lose. Ill agree that Doc is a better doubles partner though and thats it. Im not trying to say he is way better Doc, im saying that mario is slightly better then him. Ill even take even but there is no way doc being better then mario.

 

[j3ly]

On the other hand i find doc better vs jiggs. I can see myself being very gay to jiggs with ftilt and utilt techreads in a corner when i have more xp. marth too. Atleast on yoshis. May aswell take advantage of being able to space with both chars

 

[otg]

I'm pretty sure Mario and Doc's upB are completely identical, and yes still with everything you said, Mario's recovery is still horrible.

 

[j3ly]

check it out on dreamland or something, maybe its different in NTSC but on PAL doc has more height with upB. I've never managed to sweetspot with doc lol its hard.


i just thought of a raaaaape setup while writing this post. fthrow them to the edge, jump and if they tech on the spot do a late dair(floor hitbox) -> pivot wd off bair(only if they get sent offstage). cos dair is so insanely fast if its l-canceled. when mario has alot of momentum behind that move, dair -> utilt is alot quicker than jab -> dsmash

 

[KirbyKaze]

Let's talk Smash64.

They're atrocious in 64 but they're still pretty bad in Melee sans Peach, Puff, and sometimes some random characters like Link and Samus depending on matchup.

 

[cjugs]

Wait everyone was saying mario is a better finisher now we are saying doc is? And i would think marios fair is better it spikes doesn't it?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mario's Fair is super duper easy to meteor-cancel.

Mario's F-smash finisher is easier to use as a move because it's an actual move. Doc's is pretty much only to punish really dumb stuff or a combo-finisher. Doc's main points in terms of killing are that his Fair is really strong and kills outright (and can be combo'd into from throw), and that his Bair sets up gimps better.

His other positives include random stuff like Pills having a more useful bounce sometimes. If he's better, I'm pretty sure it has to do with him having a better CG vs FFers and more gimp/KO potential.

 

[j3ly]

Cg's are identical. Htiboxes are identical, hurtboxes are, i believe - identical. i have access to AR recordings of both ill put them both up on the same screen to be sure, but im fairly confident everything about them is exactly the same apart from trajectory and strength of hits.

And lag, and doc is probably missing one or 2 autocancels because the timing for some of marios' platform ones is unreasonably tight. Oh yea, and recovery (and weight in pal). lmao

Unless you are saying that docs CG is better cos dthrow leads directly into fsmash. There is alot more to say on that because in alot of situations you really need the ranged fsmash to finish a CG/grab combo, but i can see why you would suggest docs is better for that reason. i disagree though!! lol ^^

 

[otg]

Not all hitboxes are identical. iirc, Mario's jab has a few less frames of cooldown lag then Docs, and two of his aerials have 1 or 2 less frames of lag. I don't recall which ones tho. I use Mario a lot actually, so I know the differences between them pretty in depth.

Banks was trying to convince me to make a thread listing all of them, they are all so random.

 

[Fuzzyness]

m2k's guide stated that they have the same jab, both come out on frame 3 (like very jab apart from peach shiek nd swords) and followup on lik 5 or 6. i WILL check this out to be sure however, after i do some shiz tonight.

docs dair and fair have a frame or 2 extra lag. his ftilt has less lag. mario spins twice as much while in the air lol. i dont think NTSC mario or doc can SHBAIRFFWL, but PAL mario can SHBAIRFFWL. dont think doc can with extra weight.

u may aswell make that thread if u know alot about the differences. do it in the doc boards tho xD

 

[KirbyKaze]

Cg's are identical. Htiboxes are identical, hurtboxes are, i believe - identical. i have access to AR recordings of both ill put them both up on the same screen to be sure, but im fairly confident everything about them is exactly the same apart from trajectory and strength of hits.

Doc's U-throw CG overlaps with his D-throw CG vs FFers so no, they're not identical.

And lag, and doc is probably missing one or 2 autocancels because the timing for some of marios' platform ones is unreasonably tight. Oh yea, and recovery (and weight in pal). lmao

Superdoodleman disagrees with this.

Recovery is largely meaningless because having slightly less awful recovery still means you have awful recovery.

Mario in terms of lag has slightly less lag on some of his aerials. This would be really cool if he was a character with lots of interesting, complicated pressure strings and came with a Shine and a fast fall speed to abuse it with. But he doesn't. A large portion of their aerial game autocancels, and the L-cancel lag disparity doesn't affect that. I also tend to think that a 1-2 frame difference sometimes on some aerials is a pretty meaningless difference.

Unless you are saying that docs CG is better cos dthrow leads directly into fsmash. There is alot more to say on that because in alot of situations you really need the ranged fsmash to finish a CG/grab combo, but i can see why you would suggest docs is better for that reason. i disagree though!! lol ^^

It's more to do with the fact that Doc's U-throw CG overlaps (percentages) with his D-throw CG so if you actually learn how to do it (which no Doc will ever do but oh well nobody will ever play Mario either except Scorp) you can do better death combos on FD and situationally on other levels. You can combo into D-smash vs DI away and stuff iirc so finishing isn't the issue because you'd just D-throw to some stupid percent. Also, U-throw Fair.

 

[otg]

It's more to do with the fact that Doc's U-throw CG overlaps (percentages) with his D-throw CG so if you actually learn how to do it (which no Doc will ever do but oh well nobody will ever play Mario either except Scorp) you can do better death combos on FD and situationally on other levels. You can combo into D-smash vs DI away and stuff iirc so finishing isn't the issue because you'd just D-throw to some stupid percent. Also, U-throw Fair.

For awhile back when I cared I used to be able to do this. Then I got bored and started trying to usmash people and what not.

 

[MarioMariox2]

SHBAIRFFWL.

For a second there, I was confused but then I said, "Oh. SHABAWD." Lol different terms.

Also Kirbykaze the "but oh well nobody will ever play Mario either except Scorp" was uncalled for in this MARIO BOARD.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sorry, I meant nobody notable.

I'm sure many people play Mario and drop out in 2nd round pools.

<3

Also both characters can SH Bair FF WL iirc because there's no difference in their air-time, jump startup, or move duration.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

Wait everyone was saying mario is a better finisher now we are saying doc is? And i would think marios fair is better it spikes doesn't it?

Doc's fair sends the opponent away from the stage
as was stated before, Mario's can be meteor cancelled
Mario's fair = better for comboing
Doc's fair = better for finishing a combo

 

[Fuzzyness]

j3ly: kirby where did u get ur info for the cg? in terms of mario not being able to do it

mario can do the downthrow cg after 60/70% on fox nd falco. tis reli reli hard and long to learn tho. he can uthrow to 70% . did u get this info off super doodle man? could u quote it or something or write what he wrote

cos i still think their throws are the same until proven otherwise

in PAL theres a difference in weight so air time i presume? the timing for a ff in bair waveland is tricky for pal mario. my doc weighs what ur mario does so i cud just try myself but long for that.

 

[j3ly]

these points require their own post

Superdoodleman disagrees with this.

the falling speed? Superdoodleman is dead wrong then. lol. PAL

Recovery is largely meaningless because having slightly less awful recovery still means you have awful recovery

refer to this post i made. regarless of you being more experienced, i have to call u out on a lack of knowledge saying mario has a bad recovery. its 100% about the DI. specifically sdi'ng into the ground before going upwards if applicable. mario can recover in an almost peach like manner when i get momentum stalling and gaining down

refer

oooh and seeing as u are here and know about all sorts of shiz, does marios fair momentum stall and does bair create momentum with 2nd jump?

 

[KirbyKaze]

these points require their own post

the falling speed? Superdoodleman is dead wrong then. lol. PAL

Mine is probably for NTSC.

refer to this post i made. regarless of you being more experienced, i have to call u out on a lack of knowledge saying mario has a bad recovery. its 100% about the DI. specifically sdi'ng into the ground before going upwards if applicable. mario can recover in an almost peach like manner when i get momentum stalling and gaining down

Mario has the Marth recovery in that he can hover around the same spot during recovery doing nothing for a while. He lags when he lands onstage and can be hit through his efforts to fireball or stall with whatever by pretty much any sex kick or Bair (ledge invincibility is important to use). Mario's recovery isn't good, even with DI, and I've played enough Marios for long enough to be able to tell you this with some decent confidence.

Also, that SDI thing... I'm assuming you're suggesting a ground tech vs his onstage lag. I assure you, it will do remarkably little for you against many important punishes for onstage recoveries. Like Rest, Falcon's Knee, Sheik's throw, Fox's U-smash at like 85%, etc.

oooh and seeing as u are here and know about all sorts of shiz, does marios fair momentum stall and does bair create momentum with 2nd jump?

No, they don't.

j3ly: kirby where did u get ur info for the cg? in terms of mario not being able to do it

mario can do the downthrow cg after 60/70% on fox nd falco. tis reli reli hard and long to learn tho. he can uthrow to 70% . did u get this info off super doodle man? could u quote it or something or write what he wrote

cos i still think their throws are the same until proven otherwise

in PAL theres a difference in weight so air time i presume? the timing for a ff in bair waveland is tricky for pal mario. my doc weighs what ur mario does so i cud just try myself but long for that.

If there's a PAL difference for their air time and whatever then fine but at least in NTSC Mario and Doc's air time, fall speed, and whatever are not noticeably different sans L-cancel lag and actual move hit properties and one does not have oodles of blistering speed over the other.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10361708&postcount=5025

 

[j3ly]

ty for the link i cant ask for more that that, some crazy term ive never heard. growth, deeep.

ground tech? no no. SDI+ASDI onto the floor (when hit with an attack from standing) and then normal DI up into a corner. so its the same u just bounce off the floor (no window for tech its that forbidden di thing i think) and dont go as far. regardless i cant really do that well, and i never need to use upB

not using upB is of huge importance when recovering with mario. maybe the other marios need to use upB to get to the ledge but they foaked up i only use it for the invincibility frames when the situation is dire and maybe forced to recover to ledge with it. but generally as a rule, never upB if atall possible. atleast up and in smash di is required on every finisher to achieve this.

shiek fair is baad for mario. knee is a little more survivable but still bad. peach dsmash is powerful too. those are examples of moves where upB might be neccessary, where the fireball may be useless due to stall, and where there is no way to avoid being baired or edgehogged. but otherwise we mario are good, and maybe recovering to the middle of the stage after taking a charged smash but thats not until about 100% or so, maybe 110 with the secret floor di shiz

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm not sure how applicable SDI + ASDI onstage are when people generally only let Mario recover onstage when they intend to combo the balls off him or kill him outright there with a move that beats DI like Fox U-smash. Usually people just Bair him with invincibility, and his Up+B stall, Tornado stall, Fireballs, and Capes do remarkably little against flashing opponents.

Also, I'm going to pretend I didn't read your comment about Peach D-smash being bad when it's by far the most easily-countered move of the ones you addressed.

 

[j3ly]

u are very offensive in ur style of debating. i noticed that since 09. its like u have a 'here is my opinion, foak urs' style of approach which u backup with a library of facts and words. cant u convey ur messages in a pleasant way please?

its really rude. talk to people on the same level instead of comming across all superior, if u are able to.

i believe the way out is CC the first hit and let the 2nd one send u the other way. or super floor tech it lol. either way can we talk nice to eachother please. just so u are aware, this conversation is NOT about undermining eachother, or showing that one is superior. if i misinterperate u then my bad, but thats sure as sheet how u have come across to me every post. all im asking for is respect.

anyway it was nice discussing with you i am closing this window now byeee

 

[KirbyKaze]

I guess I could try not backing up my arguments with "a library of facts and words" but I think that they would be significantly less effective that way.

And you're correct about how you beat the D-smash edgegaurd. Especially on the DI down --> DI up method. It's very easy to do and everyone should do it if Peach tries that edgeguard. It's been obsolete since about 2007.

 

[j3ly]

(one more lol)

edgeguard? im talking about generally being hit by an attack, and the trajectory maxing out at just above horizontal, meaning mario has to use upB to recover - the no.1 rule being dont use upB if u wanna survive. knee, slap, dsmash and a few other moves force mario to break that rule. unless as u kindly suggested i down cancel the first hit and float away to destiny :D

I guess I could try not backing up my arguments with "a library of facts and words" but I think that they would be significantly less effective that way.

loooool this is perfect - the quotation marks and everything, the sarcasm at the beginning - textbook. the content of ur posts is always excellent, i noticed this since 08 also. the tone of post is just really.. i dunno, i wanna say douché, but thats too much. like sarcastic, but yeaaaah superior is the word im looking for. superior.

anyway ty for the info and saturation to these underfed and malnourished boards

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you're suggesting you DI hard enough that you never have to leave the stage at the end of a combo or by an arbitrary hit, I'm not sure why that wouldn't be applicable to Doc if they have largely identical weight and whatnot (iirc in your version Doc weighs more so he'd have more resistance to horizontal knockback). I suppose he floats for less time with SideB and whatnot, but he still otherwise has similar tools to defend himself coming down and stalling in the air (pills, Tornado) so I'm not sure how significant the difference would be.

 

[Sinji]

Heres my teir list.
1.fox
2.sheik
3.marth
4.falco
5.jiggs
6.capt.falcon
7.peach
8.ice climbers
9.ganon
10. doc
11.samus

And the rest is the same.

 

[MarioMariox2]

Heres my teir list.
1.fox
2.sheik
3.marth
4.falco
5.jiggs
6.capt.falcon
7.peach
8.ice climbers
9.ganon
10. doc
11.samus

And the rest is the same.

Haha, trolling the Mario boards. Oh and TY Kirbykaze for giving this board some traffic.

 

[j3ly]

read th post i quoted to under this post. its 1 page back

what i am saying is that mario can survive most hits until around 140% on most stagesm and 180% on DL. imba moves not counted cos they kill like 30% earlier.

what i am saying is mario can surviveee if he knows what to look out for, and knows to never use upB

i put video proof and times in the post 1 page ago. watch it and see. only i am doc, cause of puff. marios recovery is better still but docs is fine

biggest problem being that with perfec survival DI, the pills do NOT cover the stage trajectory. i get edgehogged by jiggs, and im thinking if that was mario... fireballs do - admittedly alot of people know how to deal with fireballs, but many dont. they also hit thru marths down up down up stall, and there are going to be 2 shot at the stalling opponent which is quite hard to avoid. battlefield this = an instant ko.

if forced to use upB, i have 2 fireballs at the edge (only 1 fireball if you are not going to use upB), i have a downB stall, i have 2 cape stalls, and i jump with uair. thats alot of options, if playing a computer which randomises its decisions every time it would be impossible to edgeguard mario in this situation every time. and this is the absolute worst recovery situation he can be in. both of them have some broke recoveries - suffice to say, with di mario is always comming back to the stage until 140-180% (stage dependant), but this discounts the broken ko moves u listed above. without di, mario is gnna struggle to live past 80% - and that is really where the difference lies

Oh and TY Kirbykaze for giving this board some traffic.

QFT

he rolls in and out.. possibly lurking the time inbetween

 

[otg]

Kirbykaze you aren't in the MBR anymore?

Also J3ly, the only reason KK is offensive is cause you're ******** and it's hard to argue with people who have clearly never played anyone good ever.

 

[KirbyKaze]

read th post i quoted to under this post. its 1 page back

what i am saying is that mario can survive most hits until around 140% on most stagesm and 180% on DL. imba moves not counted cos they kill like 30% earlier.

what i am saying is mario can surviveee if he knows what to look out for, and knows to never use upB

i put video proof and times in the post 1 page ago. watch it and see. only i am doc, cause of puff. marios recovery is better still but docs is fine

If Mario's Recovery is only very slightly better than Doc's and they're both decent recoveries (which I don't even agree with but for the sake of this argument I'll pretend I do) then why is it such a large point of contention when comparing the two? If they both have an extremely similar recovery and are expected to die in pretty much the same situations at similar percents against the same characters then it shouldn't be a point that you can use to argue Mario's superiority. And if you do use it, it should be a very minor one.

Also, I am confident I could very easily find a video of a Doc DIing properly but still being Baired by Fox a bunch of times and not making it back (or eventually being U-smashed at 85% or so when he lands onstage and dying off the top). Would that be sufficient to showcase that his recovery is easily dealt with?

biggest problem being that with perfec survival DI, the pills do NOT cover the stage trajectory. i get edgehogged by jiggs, and im thinking if that was mario... fireballs do - admittedly alot of people know how to deal with fireballs, but many dont. they also hit thru marths down up down up stall, and there are going to be 2 shot at the stalling opponent which is quite hard to avoid. battlefield this = an instant ko.

I'm not sure if I agree with this. Pills go at a fairly similar angle, just steeper. If anything I would think the steeper angle would be more useful for hitting people off edges and whatnot if you're closer to the stage, which would be ideal. There isn't a difference in rate of fire, so I'm not sure why the number fired would be different whether you're Mario or Doc.

Moreover, this doesn't address the simple fact that you can attack through either projectile to nullify its effectiveness.

if forced to use upB, i have 2 fireballs at the edge (only 1 fireball if you are not going to use upB), i have a downB stall, i have 2 cape stalls, and i jump with uair. thats alot of options, if playing a computer which randomises its decisions every time it would be impossible to edgeguard mario in this situation every time. and this is the absolute worst recovery situation he can be in. both of them have some broke recoveries - suffice to say, with di mario is always comming back to the stage until 140-180% (stage dependant), but this discounts the broken ko moves u listed above. without di, mario is gnna struggle to live past 80% - and that is really where the difference lies

I'm not sure I agree with this. Uair is fairly easy to outprioritize especially if you're DIing super high to try and optimize your chance of returning, most forms of Bairs and sex kicks can hit on both sides so successfully landing a Cape doesn't guarantee your safety either. The tornado also somewhat telegraphs Mario's next move because it means he can't do it anymore and has a fairly long duration; you can react to it and either hit him through it or, failing that, get yourself positioned either on the edge or onstage to hit him. Finally, you can actually just attack through the fireballs with most aerials and hit Mario. They're really not that good for recovery.

In a somewhat related note, I could take literally everything you said about Mario and change it to "Doc" and be correct. Only I'd have to modify "2 cape stalls" to "1 cape stall".

 

[MarioMariox2]

Lol why does everyone who isn't a mario main seem to despise mario.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't hate Mario. That would be far too much effort.

 

[Winston]

I absolutely love mario. I just think he's an underpowered character and that's why I don't main him (yet).

 

[KirbyKaze]

Don't you main Luigi?

 

[Winston]

>.>

Luigi is better than mario...

I guess my post was pretty silly though

 

[MarioMariox2]

I absolutely love mario. I just think he's an underpowered character and that's why I don't main him (yet).

He's not underpowered. He is... THE MARIO.

 

[j3ly]

kirby, i would simply point out the fact that scorp managed to come back to the stage the majority of the time. even though his mario recovery tech skill is unbelievably sloppy, lol, the mindgames were fine.

(OTG shut ya mouth professor pro and fuzz and edwin are miles and miles better than you, rolf. arguably best fox falcon and marth in europe, nd there is nothing wrong wit our pros. besides i managed to troll ur entire region on regionals, u got all angry and ****, why take anything u say seriously ^^ especially when ur content is always like that)

i'd then say for like the 3rd time - watch the vid i cited. compare it to another vid/scorp, the angle of the pill does not reach should mario/doc be sent out far away from the stage. it hovers infront of doc - no use, as upB travels at an angle, you want the fireball to go off in one direction, mario to fastfall underwards, then meet at the edge in a kind of triangle shape.

slashing the fireballs does not work fastfall the 2nd fireball, and i you go out to slash it - you just gave mario a free recovery in his worst situation.

you said all that articulate stuff about the recoveries being same. Prinicable point being that docs trajectory is poor. you say u do not agree, here is a video showing what i mean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivjkAJ9z1Ks
3:13

i dunn foaked up and got baired ooupB by puff at 127% not perfectly DI'd but i probably SDI'd up and in
see that pill uselessly float infront of me and below jiggly? if that were mario, the fireball would have been going straight for the edge. forcing jiggly to react. this happend about 2 or 3 more times, where the pill failed to force jiggly to react, where the fireball would have done beautifully.

the fact is, the closer to the corner blast line the better the DI. and as far as i can see, the closer to the corner, the less chance of recovery doc has (in terms of being edgehogged) because of the angle of his pills. instead of the corner, he wants about 5/6ths the way along the top blastline to get the best angle for a successfull pill. what about if he is 4/5ths up the side blast lines? he is foaked lol. mario wants the very corner for fireball, but neither matters - he can always shoot at the ledge from all 3 good positions. and get a 2nd one out should upB be neccessary

all matches are outdated, i have sooo many i need to upload of me being beasted.