New tier list? UPDATED TIER LIST

[BananaBolts]

@ S SheerMadness yep. it's sad that Link dies to every back throw when he's at ~30% and near the edge

Shut up. Ness is better lolz

U wot m8? I'll destroy you in Ness dittos. >_>

OK. I'll get a GC controller usb adapter since N64 controller hurts my fingers. Unless there's better controllers out there. Just not the frickin Hori mini pad cause 100 bucks for a controller is too much.

There should be more guides, no? This community is really hard to get into : thread after thread filled with inside jokes, posts that are practically spam, and confusing abbrieviations in the posts that are supposed to be helpful is a nightmare. Clean this place up! Smash 64 has ZERO guides in the official guide section. The only guide I have seen is from some n00b who wrote crap that fit in the preview then deleted it. That is sad. You want more tourneys with less lag than netplay? You want Fox to be top tier? Get new players. The badder the better because that's extra prize money bish

Yeah. The 64 scene is the least convenient game/community to get into. I got really confused when I first started visiting here because I accidentally went to the ancient smash index that was all cluttered. Then Sangoku got frustrated with me when I said that I couldn't find stuff for online play in the index. :/

Guides should be made, indeed. I'm not too comfortable with writing one because I haven't played my Falcon in a tournament setting yet to see where I need to improve. I've learned a lot from about 2 and half years of practice and 2 years of game knowledge prior to my interest in competitive play. I haven't been on Smashboards for very long but I've learned many new things.

I could write a guide or two but I'd need some help in doing so.

EDIT: Ehh, screw it. I'll just start writing an intermediate level guide to Falcon. Anyone up to the task of other characters?

 

[leekslap]

Lol. It is pretty sad not having even one guide but smashboards doesn't care about 64. There isn't even a mod in here and when there is all they do is ban people and complain. They won't even bother looking for a mod or trying a mod from the 64 community to clean this place up.

The smash index is where everything is at but it doesn't even have a proper title to direct new players that that is where to find out how to play online (http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-64-index-read-here-first.350305/)

To be fair it is a very old game so it seems like no one has anything to do but to start arguments and feuds with each other by making statements that they can claim they were jokes all while and resisting change.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but just because it's old doesn't mean it isn't good. It's just not as accessible or popular for said reasons. It has many things over games like Melee and Smash 4. It has a lower tech ceiling and tech floor than Melee, but not so easy that's brain dead garbage like Brawl where 20XX stuff is grabbing the ledge by jabbing a shield while close to ledge to get pushed on it. It has a more balanced roster with less problems with difficulty in choosing mains because of only having 12 unique characters. Choosing a stage takes five seconds while in Project M it takes 5 minutes! The punish game is ridiculous and it really makes it feel like it's your fault when you drop a combo. We gotta advertise this game, manz. Brainwash em by putting the stupidest **** in front of their faces constantly. At least VGBC shows 64. It's pretty popular in terms of watchers. At least compared to Brawl #shotsfired #hashtag #monandoboys #thismakesnosense

 

[firo]

Ness has some really advanced platform movement on DL, iirc. The only issue is the difficult execution. Link's platform movement is quite average. Although, the fact that he stays below a platform with running full hop helps his boomerang gameplay.

I don't agree with this. Try getting from the bottom of dreamland to the top platform quickly with Ness. He just moves slowly, and if he actually needs to get height for his moves it takes a long time. Link has a perfect landing when he does his instant running double jump and his air movement is fast enough to do a lot with the platform edges.

Link's short recovery and ledge options are much better than Ness' which makes the Kirby and Pika MUs more bearable.
The Link vs Falcon MU would be much better for Link if Falcon wasn't so dang fast. Ness has an even tougher time vs Falcon but at least Ness has solid combos on Falcon if he manages to land a hit. Plus, Ness doesn't get combo'd as hard as Link does.
(At least in my experience with Ness/Link vs Falcon)

I actually think that ness v falcon is one of ness's better matchups, I think he's only at a slight disadvantage.

 

[asianaussie]

link is better than ness on the whole imo, and that includes on DL

i also think he's better than luigi but idk i just hate luigi

 

[Cedricwa]

Luigi is the best character in the game

 

[leekslap]

Luigi is the best character in the game

No, it's Goku.

 

[BananaBolts]

I don't agree with this. Try getting from the bottom of dreamland to the top platform quickly with Ness.

I never said he could do it quickly. I stated that he has some really advanced movement execution. Ness doesn't really have better movement but it sure looks smooth when a good Ness is moving around the platforms with perfect landings and whatnot. Ness just has different movement options, mostly due to the physics of his double jump.

I actually think that ness v falcon is one of ness's better matchups, I think he's only at a slight disadvantage.

That may be one of Ness' better MUs but I still hold the opinion that Link vs Falcon is more in Link's favor than Ness vs Falcon.

Link vs Falcon is something like 40/60 (subject to change)
Ness vs Falcon is something like 35/65 (subject to change)

Admittedly, I could be wrong. This is just what I've gathered over the past 4 years of experience/spectating.

 

[asianaussie]

I never said he could do it quickly. I stated that he has some really advanced movement execution. Ness doesn't really have better movement but it sure looks smooth when a good Ness is moving around the platforms with perfect landings and whatnot. Ness just has different movement options, mostly due to the physics of his double jump.

idk why you brought it up at all if this is what you meant

i feel ness has arguably the most predictable movement in the game once you are aware of the possibilities

That may be one of Ness' better MUs but I still hold the opinion that Link vs Falcon is more in Link's favor than Ness vs Falcon.

Link vs Falcon is something like 40/60 (subject to change)
Ness vs Falcon is something like 35/65 (subject to change)

Admittedly, I could be wrong. This is just what I've gathered over the past 4 years of experience/spectating.

link vs falcon is pretty ****ing terrible for link

idk about ness and im not sure why firo thinks it's one of ness's 'better' matchups but ill leave it at that

 

[gmBottles]

Top tier:
Mid tier: everyone else

I am only good with Yoshi

 

[BananaBolts]

idk why you brought it up at all if this is what you meant

I had been awake for 30 hours so I was running on fumes at that point.

Whoops!! I was thinking about Link vs Falcon overall. I'm used to friendlies so we play Hyrule a lot.
It's a lot worse on DL only... more like 20/80

Ness combos Falcon pretty well, Falcon doesn't have a projectile with which to annoy Ness, and he can gimp Falcon decently. On the other hand, Falcon is lightning fast and he punishes Ness well, both baited moves and recoveries. Also, a good Ness should be able to bait the grab but then again, a good Falcon should always be connecting with his grabs. Err... Ness needs some help.

Considering Ness probably doesn't have any 50/50 MUs, his Falcon MU is not too bad.

 

[SheerMadness]

There's no way Link is better than Ness on dreamland.

I vehemently disagree with anyone who says otherwise.

 

[Cedricwa]

Ness can have an easy time throwing link off the edge then spiking him when he tries to recover on DL

 

[asianaussie]

link can have an easy time hitting ness off the edge then stonewalling him when he tries to recover

 

[leekslap]

There's no way Link is better than Ness on dreamland.

I vehemently disagree with anyone who says otherwise.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but I agree with you if you aren't.

 

[Cedricwa]

link can have an easy time hitting ness off the edge then stonewalling him when he tries to recover

If that ness player doesn't play ness often and doesn't know how to recover. People exaggerate about ness's recovery so much

EDIT: Ness is one of the easier characters to learn how to combo with IMO, and his attacks are all high priority, and his throws along with edgeguarding can be deadly. But just because his up special takes so long people think he's bad and don't want to play him. Srsly he has the best spike in the game, catch people off guard when they try to punish you off the edge, spike them when they come for you and then up B after. As long as you time it right, his spike has way higher priority than all of most characters aerials.

 

[asianaussie]

lol

the way to recover with ness is to remove the (U) cartridge and insert a (J) one

this takes me back though... this has to be the first guy who's come in and overrated ness in what, a year?

 

[Sedda]

guys his recovery is awful pls

how to edgeguard ness at low percents: backthrow, read down b sweetspot, rekt

how to edgeguard ness at high percents: backthrow, time edgehog, ness recovers high, rekt

 

[Cedricwa]

Foxs up B is worse than Ness's

 

[asianaussie]

absolutely not

fox doesnt have 3 months of landing lag from his fallstate, for one

 

[Cedricwa]

However fox does have about as much start up time, his doesn't go as far, and most importantly his can be stopped by practically any move, while ness's has very high priority over other moves

What sucks a lot though is that if anything touches the pk thunder he's ****ed

 

[asianaussie]

fox's has a lot less startup, but it doesnt matter because that's not what makes it better than ness's

you dont hit ness while he's actually in pk thunder mode, you either hit him when he does his little girly somersault, or you edgehog and force him into a very vulnerable position

honestly sounds like you're fighting people who dont know how to edgeguard ness

 

[Cedricwa]

Aha that could be possible, but I just feel like it's not as hard to recover as ness as it seems. Especially if you can get the ledge and not the stage then you don't have to worry about landing lag, which to me happens more often

 

[breakthrough]

Aha that could be possible, but I just feel like it's not as hard to recover as ness as it seems. Especially if you can get the ledge and not the stage then you don't have to worry about landing lag, which to me happens more often

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQi0khLBpWs

 

[Cedricwa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQi0khLBpWs

Ahaha **** okay

 

[SheerMadness]

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but I agree with you if you aren't.

I was being serious. Like I already mentioned Ness just does almost everything better on dreamland IMO

Easier and more reliable combos, better gimping, and while his recovery is terrible it does actually have some mix ups and length to it unlike Link. He has at least chance to recover while Link doesn't.

 

[asianaussie]

what legitimate 'mixups' does ness have in recovery, pray tell

 

[SheerMadness]

His jump is huge so at low to mid % he can just use his jump try to aerial the person edgeguarding or use up b/down b to grab the ledge. Doesn't need to try and up b where Link will almost always have to use his up b to recover no matter the %.

Also at higher percents you can recover high and dair them when they come out to hit you before your up b. It works occasionally.

And lastly Ness can actually sweetspot the ledge although very rare. Plus there's a certain angle you can up b onto the stage and have almost no recovery period.

That's a lot of options compared to Link where it's basically use your jump then up b every time you're off the ledge. No mix ups at all.

Edit: Wait I guess Link can throw a boomerang between his jump and up b lol.

 

[MrMarbles]

as a pika main i have a much harder time edgegaurding lnik than ness. I think i just suck against link tho

 

[firo]

Sure ness has recovery options, I ended up recovering a fair amount when I was playing ness at zenith.

But link has recovery options as well, especially if he is holding a bomb. If he is recovering up high enough, for example, you can time a bomb throw so that your opponent can't edgeguard on the ground effectively. Getting an edge cancel with an up-b is also a possibility, although fairly remote. A well placed boomerang can force your opponent to really think their next move.

In either case though, if I have to up-b with either of them I assume I am dead, and I'll only live if my opponent screws up. I don't think there are many situations where these characters actually have true options, where the other player can't guarantee the edgeguard if he does the right move with reasonable reaction time. It's not like pikachu where you legitimately have to guess with a lot of characters to get the kill.

 

[Z-Rex]

absolutely not

fox doesnt have 3 months of landing lag from his fallstate, for one

I find it fascinating that Sakurai & Co chose to give Ness's up+b more landing lag than other, more useful ones in the game.

I love Ness, but I have to agree with his general placement in most of the "new" tierlists I've seen. I prefer it that way, to be honest. Keeps the cameras on those high tier suckers while we earth-bound mad scientists plot our ambush. We're cooking up a ridiculous DJC brew with game-breakingly guaranteed 0-death combos. The world is not ready. Just trust me, or something.

 

[Cedricwa]

*Ness DJC sound x100*

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

fox is better on hyrule than dl, but he's still way better than mario

i wouldnt say samus and link aren't viable either, but then again i personally think luigi is the wrost (god luigi sucks), so idk

I'll have to show you my luigi at apex or online bro

 

[Sedda]

@ THE_MAAFIA even if you beat me with luigi (bring it on cuz ill spank that luigi), he still sucks.

i feel like you need to be comfortably above the other player's level to beat them with luigi or ness. if you beat me with luigi, it's not because luigi is a good character. it's because you're a better player than me

 

[BananaBolts]

I'll have to show you my luigi at apex or online bro

I feel like Luigi is underrated by Mario mains who tried Luigi out for a few days and gave up because he wasn't fast enough or whatever johns they used. Luigi is obviously not better than Mario but he's certainly not the lowest on the tier list.

He's got a great recovery, frame 1 tornado, floaty(good and bad), projectile that covers movement options, and an average combo game on most characters. He wrecks Jiggs but I suppose that would be more of a plus if Jiggs was higher on the list. His tornado is better than Mario's for escaping and finishing combos.

With all of that said,

i feel like you need to be comfortably above the other player's level to beat them with luigi or ness. if you beat me with luigi, it's not because luigi is a good character. it's because you're a better player than me

Sedda is still right.

 

[Sedda]

his floatiness coupled with high short hop and painfully slow aerials make him really hard to approach with. Your game is basically all based on capitalizing on bad approaches without you being able to approach yourself. his fireballs arent useless but mario's are much better for recovering high and on stage in general. i do like luigi's fireballs for ledge cover when recovering lowish or horizontal to the stage, and sometimes you can catch people with them in the neutral, but that goes back to the opponent just being a bit careful and they'll be ok.

even if you use his tornado or upb to escape a combo, if the opponent is at low %, they're gonna punish you for it.

yeah his recovery is good, but his presence on stage is lol

 

[BananaBolts]

I think that being the first to take a stock is crucial for low tier characters. The other player needs to be the one approaching most of the time. Luigi's lack of a good approach is a big problem. Fireballs being used to cover the opponent's approach options help but they aren't good enough to cover Luigi's approaches.

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

Eh I just play the game and I do pretty awesome, my main approach is strange and really messes with the opponent, I don't wanna tell ya guys but i will for now I jump, fireball, up air while moving closer or staying still, if they shield the fireball, I run up and grab= GIMP LOL (lol dunno y I made it caps but wateva) and if they get hit... Heheheh they get an up air combo to up b... I never really end combos with down b cause I'm so precise with the combo that I can always reach em with up b, (I sound cocky but eh) if I really can't reach em (cause I made a mistake) then up b will get em

 

[MrMarbles]

Eh I just play the game and I do pretty awesome, my main approach is strange and really messes with the opponent, I don't wanna tell ya guys but i will for now I jump, fireball, up air while moving closer or staying still, if they shield the fireball, I run up and grab= GIMP LOL (lol dunno y I made it caps but wateva) and if they get hit... Heheheh they get an up air combo to up b... I never really end combos with down b cause I'm so precise with the combo that I can always reach em with up b, (I sound cocky but eh) if I really can't reach em (cause I made a mistake) then up b will get em

only noobs shield fireballs

 

[Sedda]

ill shine those fireballs and fair you in the mouth

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

ill shine those fireballs and fair you in the mouth

Ohhh I'd love to see you try B) come at me bro