New tier list? UPDATED TIER LIST

[BananaBolts]

I'll just f-air right through it and catch your approaching u-air simultaneously. I play against a Luigi main just like you, Maaf.

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

Oh I'm gonna have fun vs ing @ BananaBolts and @ Sedda >:3

 

[BananaBolts]

Oh I'm gonna have fun vs ing @ BananaBolts and @ Sedda >:3

I don't know when we're going to play lol. I'm not going to Apex but I'll see if I can get netplay up and running within the next couple of weeks. I've been working out some internet issues and a guy is coming on Monday to check our external connections and whatnot.

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

I don't know when we're going to play lol. I'm not going to Apex but I'll see if I can get netplay up and running within the next couple of weeks. I've been working out some internet issues and a guy is coming on Monday to check our external connections and whatnot.

Sounds great, if you need help setting up pj64k then tell me

 

[BananaBolts]

I shouldn't have very much trouble. I need my internet to cooperate first. The only issue I can foresee is figuring out which server to connect to and how to properly p2p.

 

[Frank Curtis]

Very interesting tier lists here. I have my own idea as to how it looks from a certain point. Now mind you my NTSC tier list is based on a few factors:
1. Dreamland being the only legal neutral stage (along side the counter picks) and Hyrule being banned in most tournament rule sets now.
2. NTSC version only. Taking consideration of Japanese and European players is good and all, but they have a completely different build of the game and certain characters have different attributes in those respective versions.
3. Character performances by different players on Dreamland from Apex tournaments, Zenith tournaments, and so on from earlier years. I know it sounds like a not so valid factor to take in, but it works for this occasion.
4. Known character attributes and techniques on the NTSC version (the "No **** Sherlock" factor here).
So here goes.

S Tier:
Pikachu

A Tier:
Kirby
Falcon
Fox

B Tier:
Mario
Yoshi

C Tier:

Ness
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff


D Tier:
Luigi
Samus
Link

Pikachu still remains in high tier, though he has to deal with certain trouble from some characters who do excellent in Dreamland. Pikachu's combos are not as extensive as him being on Hyrule Castle, so he's not God Tier as he was back then (at least in my mind). Falcon jumps from B tier to A tier for combos, throws, and spikes being much more better on Dreamland than Hyrule and with his speed being an incredible attribute of his along with Dreamland being a smaller, Falcon has a much more easier time closing in on the chance to take a stock. Fox doesn't suffer much from the Hyrule ban because he still has offensive capabilities outside of his projectile camping, it's just a matter of more Fox players needing to adapt to Dreamland (which most high level Foxes already have from the beginning). Yoshi gains a B Tier spot with Mario thanks to his Double Jump cancel being much more utilized in Dreamland than Hyrule. Same goes with Ness, who is now at the top of C tier. Link now holds the tile for worst character due to his poor recovery being even worse on Dreamland's layout and (same as Fox) his projectile camping being extremely limited now. This doesn't mean that he stands no chance at all in the roster, but it is a rather rougher time. Link players will have to play smart with their projectiles from now on and place them more strategically on platforms than ever before.

And there you have it, my NTSC Tier List. Feel free to take it with a grain of salt if you will and hell even point out stuff you may agree or disagree with, but I think it's a solid list considering the factors mentioned above.

 

[asianaussie]

that is a lot of buzzwords

and a lot of what are you talking about

 

[leekslap]

Very interesting tier lists here. I have my own idea as to how it looks from a certain point. Now mind you my NTSC tier list is based on a few factors:
1. Dreamland being the only legal neutral stage (along side the counter picks) and Hyrule being banned in most tournament rule sets now.
2. NTSC version only. Taking consideration of Japanese and European players is good and all, but they have a completely different build of the game and certain characters have different attributes in those respective versions.
3. Character performances by different players on Dreamland from Apex tournaments, Zenith tournaments, and so on from earlier years. I know it sounds like a not so valid factor to take in, but it works for this occasion.
4. Known character attributes and techniques on the NTSC version (the "No **** Sherlock" factor here).
So here goes.

S Tier:
Pikachu

A Tier:
Kirby
Falcon
Fox

B Tier:
Mario
Yoshi

C Tier:

Ness
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff


D Tier:
Luigi
Samus
Link

Pikachu still remains in high tier, though he has to deal with certain trouble from some characters who do excellent in Dreamland. Pikachu's combos are not as extensive as him being on Hyrule Castle, so he's not God Tier as he was back then (at least in my mind). Falcon jumps from B tier to A tier for combos, throws, and spikes being much more better on Dreamland than Hyrule and with his speed being an incredible attribute of his along with Dreamland being a smaller, Falcon has a much more easier time closing in on the chance to take a stock. Fox doesn't suffer much from the Hyrule ban because he still has offensive capabilities outside of his projectile camping, it's just a matter of more Fox players needing to adapt to Dreamland (which most high level Foxes already have from the beginning). Yoshi gains a B Tier spot with Mario thanks to his Double Jump cancel being much more utilized in Dreamland than Hyrule. Same goes with Ness, who is now at the top of C tier. Link now holds the tile for worst character due to his poor recovery being even worse on Dreamland's layout and (same as Fox) his projectile camping being extremely limited now. This doesn't mean that he stands no chance at all in the roster, but it is a rather rougher time. Link players will have to play smart with their projectiles from now on and place them more strategically on platforms than ever before.

And there you have it, my NTSC Tier List. Feel free to take it with a grain of salt if you will and hell even point out stuff you may agree or disagree with, but I think it's a solid list considering the factors mentioned above.

that is a lot of buzzwords

and a lot of what are you talking about

What asianaussie means is that WE LITERALLY JUST HAD A BIG ARGUMENT OVER NESS! I think Ness is a solid character, but top of C Tier under ****ing Yoshi? DK is so much better than Ness Dreamland or Hyrule, and you forgot how Jiggs de Puff got really buffed with the size of the stage and whatnot. Ness is between Luigi and Samus or tied with Luigi since both their gameplans are basically try to get a hit and kill them off that.

 

[asianaussie]

no, what im talking about is that he's saying things which make no sense - yoshi using DJC more on DL? that's totally a player thing lol, and ness JUMPING UP? there's also a lack of justification for things like luigi > samus, mario > yoshi, ness a tier above link/luigi/samus

how did jiggs get buffed on dreamland? she killed just as effectively on hyrule with rest and now she has a lower chance to survive stray b-airs or w/e due to the smaller stage? i mean, i could believe that she got buffed (she loses the bad matchup of link on hyrule, at any rate) but i dont think it can be explained that easily

also ness still sucks and luigi sucks more

 

[Sedda]

**** luigi

**** ness

 

[leekslap]

no, what im talking about is that he's saying things which make no sense - yoshi using DJC more on DL? that's totally a player thing lol, and ness JUMPING UP? there's also a lack of justification for things like luigi > samus, mario > yoshi, ness a tier above link/luigi/samus

how did jiggs get buffed on dreamland? she killed just as effectively on hyrule with rest and now she has a lower chance to survive stray b-airs or w/e due to the smaller stage? i mean, i could believe that she got buffed (she loses the bad matchup of link on hyrule, at any rate) but i dont think it can be explained that easily

also ness still sucks and luigi sucks more

Luigi has death combos while Samus doesn't. Mario's excellent matchup spread alone makes him better than Yoshi. Other than that I agree with what you are saying, but I didn't mention those things because ignoring a big argument seemed like a bigger deal. Also, back to Ness > Link. Ness is better than Link because Ness just needs to combo people to death off a hit while Link needs to do all this projectile edgeguarding spacing stuff first. More reliable in a way.

I'm going to be honest here. I'm not sure if Dreamland has a bigger boundary than Hyrule. I guess I'm so used to Melee and Project M Dreamland where it's the biggest stage available and a haven for floaty and light characters. I guess I mixed up Melee Puff with 64. Also because Hyrule seems to have less "space" offstage than Dreamland.

 

[asianaussie]

samus has viable neutral options, luigi doesnt

idk who decided mario's matchup spread vs yoshi's, but it's pretty debatable

hyrule is definitely bigger than dreamland lol have you ever played there

 

[BananaBolts]

leekslap is talking about total distance from the edge of the stage to blast zones. It isn't really much of a concern anyways because it would only make a difference in edgeguarding situations and even then it's almost a completely negligible point.

asianaussie is right about the mario and yoshi MU spread. It's definitely debatable

I would say a new MU chart for DL-only is important so that we can lay better groundwork for a tier list. After the MU chart is finished and unanimously(?) agreed upon, then and only then can we decide on a proper tier list. Without counter-picks, the tier list will lean heavily on MUs.

 

[Madao]

Jigglypuff

Rofl, this threw me off for a sec.

If anyone is curious about the Blast Zone data, take a look.

 

[BananaBolts]

Where is X = 0 and Y = 0 on the stages?

What units are being used?

 

[Madao]

Where is X = 0 and Y = 0 on the stages?

What units are being used?

Good questions . To answer your first question, you could use cheat engine and explore stages. If you want to memorize them, just write down key coordinates and make a picture. I did dream land a while ago. It's kinda tricky to make a picture though. I can't fully remember my method of making characters invisible. I'll have to experiment with that again. Just in case you're wondering about where x = 0, it's the exact middle of the stage and the spawn location (after dying). I could take pictures of a few stages (~4) if you want. Just let me know the most important ones. The cool thing is, once you organize a list of key points for each stage, you can have a good idea of the minimum damage required for a KO, without having to do extensive manual testing.

To answer your 2nd question, all I know is that it's floating point. The tricky part is that 1 unit != 1 pixel on the screen. Basically these units are what the game uses to keep track of coordinates. If you want to get a feel for how it works, I suggest you play around with cheat engine and change coordinates, to see how far you move.

 

[BananaBolts]

Good questions . To answer your first question, you could use cheat engine and explore stages. If you want to memorize them, just write down key coordinates and make a picture. I did dream land a while ago. It's kinda tricky to make a picture though. I can't fully remember my method of making characters invisible. I'll have to experiment with that again. Just in case you're wondering about where x = 0, it's the exact middle of the stage and the spawn location (after dying). I could take pictures of a few stages (~4) if you want. Just let me know the most important ones. The cool thing is, once you organize a list of key points for each stage, you can have a good idea of the minimum damage required for a KO, without having to do extensive manual testing.

To answer your 2nd question, all I know is that it's floating point. The tricky part is that 1 unit != 1 pixel on the screen. Basically these units are what the game uses to keep track of coordinates. If you want to get a feel for how it works, I suggest you play around with cheat engine and change coordinates, to see how far you move.

Thanks! Ahh, I forgot that most 3d games use floating point for locations too; I knew it was typically used in size calculations and other similar things. As for the pictures of stages, I don't really need any more pictures. DL is sufficient for now

I looked for the cheat engine and an old link that you posted had an error 404. Is there another cheat engine that I can use?
I already have your attack calculator for testing so I'll be able to do testing once I can use the cheat engine to check coordinate locations. Actually, is cheat engine the only source for coordinate locations?

Your attack calculator is so useful! Now that I know major coordinate locations on DL, things are very easy to test. You've done a fantastic job, Madao. I would thank mixa too but... *shrug*

 

[Madao]

Thanks! Ahh, I forgot that most 3d games use floating point for locations too; I knew it was typically used in size calculations and other similar things. As for the pictures of stages, I don't really need any more pictures. DL is sufficient for now

I looked for the cheat engine and an old link that you posted had an error 404. Is there another cheat engine that I can use?
I already have your attack calculator for testing so I'll be able to do testing once I can use the cheat engine to check coordinate locations. Actually, is cheat engine the only source for coordinate locations?

Your attack calculator is so useful! Now that I know major coordinate locations on DL, things are very easy to test. You've done a fantastic job, Madao. I would thank mixa too but... *shrug*

You're welcome. Great, so I don't have to do more pictures .
Might as well use a newer version of cheat engine anyway xD. The old tables I uploaded should still work. Honestly, any memory editor will do, but I really like cheat engine. It's very convenient for me to use.

After doing some TASing, I'll try to add more stuff to my cheat engine table.

 

[Frank Curtis]

no, what im talking about is that he's saying things which make no sense - yoshi using DJC more on DL? that's totally a player thing lol, and ness JUMPING UP? there's also a lack of justification for things like luigi > samus, mario > yoshi, ness a tier above link/luigi/samus

how did jiggs get buffed on dreamland? she killed just as effectively on hyrule with rest and now she has a lower chance to survive stray b-airs or w/e due to the smaller stage? i mean, i could believe that she got buffed (she loses the bad matchup of link on hyrule, at any rate) but i dont think it can be explained that easily

also ness still sucks and luigi sucks more

Well it's more of my logic than anything else really(not that it makes any better lol). What I meant to say is that Yoshi's DJC is more...shall we say "user friendly"(or perhaps advantageous) on Dreamland than Hyrule, one being a small stage with surrounding platforms and the other having platforms in one particular section of a larger map, hence the reason I believe Ness is better on Dreamland as well (though I will admit to standing correct down below). Players can take advantage of DJC with the setup in Dreamland more than Hyrule imo. In the B tier, it's not Mario>Yoshi, I meant to express it like Mario=Yoshi (as it is in the current matchup chart right now), sorry for the confusion there. Luigi gained the top in D tier because Link is worst on Dreamland, not because Luigi gets better on Dreamland and again same with the Mario>Yoshi misconception, Luigi isn't meant to be better than Samus, but they're both sure as better than Link in terms of some combos and recovery, that's for sure.

What asianaussie means is that WE LITERALLY JUST HAD A BIG ARGUMENT OVER NESS! I think Ness is a solid character, but top of C Tier under ****ing Yoshi? DK is so much better than Ness Dreamland or Hyrule, and you forgot how Jiggs de Puff got really buffed with the size of the stage and whatnot. Ness is between Luigi and Samus or tied with Luigi since both their gameplans are basically try to get a hit and kill them off that.

This you are correct on, so I will change this admitting I stood correct. I forgot that while Ness has the DJC and can use it to good effect on Dreamland, he also has a recovery that is the most easy to gimp (especially by both DK and Jiggly). Therefore....

S-Tier:
A-Tier: , ,
B-Tier: ,
C-Tier: ,
D-Tier: , , ,

 

[BananaBolts]

I know Link's recovery is bad but it doesn't warrant a bottom spot. Falcon also has a horrendous recovery on DL but that doesn't automatically put him on the bottom too. I think Link is lowest on the C-tier or the highest on the D-tier.

Here's my list, as of now:
S-Tier:
A-Tier: , /
B-Tier: ,
C-Tier: ,
D-Tier: , , ,
I still put Luigi above Samus. Come at me, bro.
I wish Link could be C-tier.

 

[Frank Curtis]

True, but Link's recovery is only a part of the laundry list that makes him bad (Like being easy to get comboed, a throw with a lot of endlag if missed, ect...), thus I still put him below. Sure Falcon has a bad recovery, but his combos, good throws, and range outshine that by a long mile in my book.

 

[BananaBolts]

It originally sounded like you put him at the bottom for recovery. Anyways, he has a good neutral game which isn't the case for the other characters above which I ranked him. He has mediocre combos against most of the cast, a mediocre edgeguarding game, and he has the bomb that has potential to save him from heavy combos. That last point isn't the best but RNGesus saves lives.

 

[Cedricwa]

This is off topic a bit but it came to my mind when talking about ness and yoshi DJC. Does anyone else have a harder time doing yoshis DJC than ness? Like what happens for me is it comes out too fast and so the hitbox doesn't come out before yoshi hits the ground again. But with ness I have no problem doing really fast DJCs with all his aerials

 

[BananaBolts]

This is off topic a bit but it came to my mind when talking about ness and yoshi DJC. Does anyone else have a harder time doing yoshis DJC than ness? Like what happens for me is it comes out too fast and so the hitbox doesn't come out before yoshi hits the ground again. But with ness I have no problem doing really fast DJCs with all his aerials

I don't know how much sense you can make of this but it probably holds the answers you're looking for. I would search personally but I have some math tutoring to do. People need my help.

 

[asianaussie]

link has a lot of weaknesses and i think samus is probably better than him - he is also bottom tier regardless of who he's 'better' than

his throw having recovery isnt that bad, you only ever use it if you have a hard read or if you can confirm it after an aerial on shield (or if you're a moron like me who likes the feeling when your random hookshots land)

being easily comboed does not stop falcon and fox from being high up, so you can cross that off as a defining weakness

as for his actual weaknesses
- on DL, his recovery means a mid-percent throw is death, or even non-kill combos from most characters
- relatively easy to gimp if you know his up-b well
- slow moves and slow jump, even his best gtfo (sh d-air probably) seems fast, but is kind of slow due to his stupid jump
- because of this he has no way to really fight off pressure from any top tier, all of whom can get in quite easily or outcamp him







jiggs/dk placement is questionable and im starting to wonder about fox and yoshi... then i play fox and he's just so ****ing fast so whatever

 

[asianaussie]

doublepost but this is relevant info

re: yoshi DJC, at he beginning of yoshi's second jump he dips down a bit, so if you dont delay your second jump slightly, you're too close to the ground when he does his dip, meaning he hits the ground before the actual move comes out

basically, add a short delay after you first jump with him - it's not like ness where you can just slide or spam out aerials

 

[Tom Bombadil]

If Link had a 4 frame jump animation I might be able to play him more than once a month (using R for aerials doesn't help).

I find myself agreeing with you in general when you post things. But you have Falcon in the same tier as Pika?

Yes, yes. I realize he's fast and has a very easy fundamental kit. And his Pika matchup on DL is great. But still man, there's no way he's a tier above Kirby.

 

[Sedda]

yeah i agree with tom. id switch kirby for falcon, and the only reason id leave fox in 4th is because he's the most fragile of the top characters, but i feel he has more potential than falcon and kirby

i also think link beats samus in that matchup, but samus is better overall

 

[NotLightningRunner]

Here's my tier list:
S:
A:
Z:

 

[BananaBolts]

Here's my tier list:
S:
A:
Z:

Pfft. Nice try. Mario clearly belongs below Samus.

But seriously, Flacno isn't even close to being on top.

 

[NotLightningRunner]

Pfft. Nice try. Mario clearly belongs below Samus.

But seriously, Flacno isn't even close to being on top.

I know man, I just wich Flacno was better.

 

[BananaBolts]

That trashy recovery. Why can't we all have pika's up-b?

 

[The Star King]

But seriously, Flacno isn't even close to being on top.

He's pretty close.

 

[BananaBolts]

He's pretty close.

Relative to Luigi, Ness, and Samus, yes. If Flacno had a better recovery and recovery mix-up, then I could consider him on top.
(He also gets combo'd hard but no one seems to care lol)

 

[Annex]

Flacno can easily turn any grab, usmash, or uair into a kill on most of the cast, and any aerial hit on a grounded opponent (shielded or not) into a grab
No other character has that except maybe dk with infinite cargo -> bthrow

 

[BananaBolts]

That's true but he gets combo'd so hard and his recovery distance and mix-up sucks. Flacno is the most linear when we talk about recovery (Link is a very close second). Even Ness and Fox have more mix-ups. Faclno gets gimped for days. Those problems are what holds him back from being an S-tier character. Those issues will never change, period. Facnol will remain on A-tier for the rest of Smash 64's competitive life. He's not going to suddenly learn the ability to throw fireballs or something.

Who knows, he could become the top character some day (I highly doubt it) but he'll never be S-tier.

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

I don't know who this Flacno character is, I guess I gotta beat the game on very hard, 1 stock and under 60 seconds to unlock him

 

[NotLightningRunner]

I don't know who this Flacno character is, I guess I gotta beat the game on very hard, 1 stock and under 60 seconds to unlock him

I speedrun that all the time, it has to be under 30 seconds because I get it under 45 seconds.

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

I speedrun that all the time, it has to be under 30 seconds because I get it under 45 seconds.

Damn, I guess I just can't get him then ;-;

 

[NotLightningRunner]

Damn, I guess I just can't get him then ;-;

He must be really good, I heard he can switch between 2 modes with taunts.