New tier list? UPDATED TIER LIST

[THE_MAAFIA]

S. Top Tier :

Spoiler

amazing priority, combos, spacing, aerial game, gimp capability and recovery. Minor flaws: his projectile and his fair aren't that good (but at least they serve some niche purpose in his gameplay) and despite being lightweight, he's comboable.

A1. High Tier (Upper Half):

Spoiler

Great characters. Both are stage bullies with outstanding spacing, priority and combos. Kirby has a "bad" pika matchup and falcon has poor options while recovering, that's why they are lower than pika. On a sidenote, both characters are imho easier to pick up.

A2. High Tier (Lower Half):

Spoiler

Great characters that have complex/hard-to-master mechanics. Fox also suffers DL-Only metagame more than other high tiers because of his bad recovery and space-ish-heavy (oh God is that even a word?) gameplay: however, contrarily to Link, he can adapt to some extent and play aggressively with comboes and gimps. Yoshi lacks a good grab, requires superior input accuracy and therefore one mistake can cost you huge %'s against other top tiers: on the upside, his damage output and pressure are just so good.

B. Mid Tier:

Spoiler

They are decent. Mario is an overall balanced character and jiggz has some flaws (approaching in certain matchups, mainly) but her incredible comboing and good recovery make up for that. However, if you pick every single aspect of those two characters' gameplay, there is at least one high tier that does that thing better than them.

C1. Low Tier (Upper Half):

Spoiler

DK has epic low-% kills on heavyweight characters with bad recoveries (fox, link, falcon, ness, and himself) and one of the best grabs in the game (which is such an important factor in ssb64) but he's often outspaced and suffers combos worse than the rest of the cast because of his huge hurtbox and fast-but-not-too-fast-falling. Samus has pretty decent aerial game and recovery (that's why she performs better against high tiers compared to link, ness and luigi) but her inability to combo and to grab forces her to stay on her toes all the game in order to apply pressure. Overall, i don't think those two characters are bad, but their options on each aspect of the game are limited (e.g. samus spacing bair 90% of the time), making them kind of One-Trick-Ponies.

C2. Low Tier (Lower Half):

Spoiler

Those characters have a versatile movesets and good pressure/combo options if they get an opener. Both also possess very high priority on their aerials and tilts. However, they are both hard to master and lack of decent options for recovering offstage. This basically means that they are very likey to lose a stock whenever thrown offstage. Link is somewhat slow and hasn't got a reliable grab: and while yoshi proves that you can be a rushdown character without a grab, this isn't clearly the case with Link. He is a projectile-heavy character with bad recovery, and he would love more options for when the opponent is being *in-his-face* (other than shdair or backwards-shfair or utilt). Ness also has the worst range in the game which makes it difficult for him to approach most characters and combo them.

D. Bottom Tier:

Spoiler

Luigi's upsides are a pretty good recovery (maybe top3 in the game), floatyness which prevents him to get comboed too hard, and good juggling-combo ability. Other than that, i think he has got very little to stand his ground. Notably, he has the worst short-hop in the game, worst projectile in the game, worst overall moveset-priority in the game, worst dash attack in the game and really bad speed. This results on him not being able to constantly land openers on many higher tied characters and having to wait for them to make a mistake: i can't honestly think of a matchup where Weegee has the upper hand maybe except a bit on Puff. On a sidenote for starters, his main advanced combo tool (sh-rising aerial-fastfall-aerial-zcancel) is pretty hard to learn, at least it was for me.

tl;dr: >>>>>>>>>>

His projectile is great for spacing and starting an unsuspecting combo, I can vs you online to give you a bit of insight on what luigi can do if you want

 

[Agony]

1. Lag would kill my patience before your combos could kill my characters, trust me. I'm not even considering connecting to pennsylvania. :D

2. I'm not saying his projectile is inherently bad, and i have played this game long enough to know what it can do and what it can't. I just said that it is the worst projectile in the game. That's all.

3. Your Luigi badly beating me or (as far as I know) me badly beating your Luigi wouldn't prove neither my points nor yours.

4. Ssb64 is a game where pretty much each character has impressive combos and can take the stock in one setup. Tier list is very close, the worst absolute matchup is something like 66-34, and you can always do well with any toon you like, given you train with it.

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

1. Lag would kill my patience before your combos could kill my characters, trust me. I'm not even considering connecting to pennsylvania. :D

2. I'm not saying his projectile is inherently bad, and i have played this game long enough to know what it can do and what it can't. I just said that it is the worst projectile in the game. That's all.

3. Your Luigi badly beating me or (as far as I know) me badly beating your Luigi wouldn't prove neither my points nor yours.

4. Ssb64 is a game where pretty much each character has impressive combos and can take the stock in one setup. Tier list is very close, the worst absolute matchup is something like 66-34, and you can always do well with any toon you like, given you train with it.

Lol didn't know you where in Europe, darn
And I just wanted to vs to show how he can approach and how he can counter and gimp characters very easily that's all :3

 

[Kahnu]

S. Top Tier :

Spoiler

amazing priority, combos, spacing, aerial game, gimp capability and recovery. Minor flaws: his projectile and his fair aren't that good (but at least they serve some niche purpose in his gameplay) and despite being lightweight, he's comboable.

A1. High Tier (Upper Half):

Spoiler

Great characters. Both are stage bullies with outstanding spacing, priority and combos. Kirby has a "bad" pika matchup and falcon has poor options while recovering, that's why they are lower than pika. On a sidenote, both characters are imho easier to pick up.

A2. High Tier (Lower Half):

Spoiler

Great characters that have complex/hard-to-master mechanics. Fox also suffers DL-Only metagame more than other high tiers because of his bad recovery and space-ish-heavy (oh God is that even a word?) gameplay: however, contrarily to Link, he can adapt to some extent and play aggressively with comboes and gimps. Yoshi lacks a good grab, requires superior input accuracy and therefore one mistake can cost you huge %'s against other top tiers: on the upside, his damage output and pressure are just so good.

B. Mid Tier:

Spoiler

They are decent. Mario is an overall balanced character and jiggz has some flaws (approaching in certain matchups, mainly) but her incredible comboing and good recovery make up for that. However, if you pick every single aspect of those two characters' gameplay, there is at least one high tier that does that thing better than them.

C1. Low Tier (Upper Half):

Spoiler

DK has epic low-% kills on heavyweight characters with bad recoveries (fox, link, falcon, ness, and himself) and one of the best grabs in the game (which is such an important factor in ssb64) but he's often outspaced and suffers combos worse than the rest of the cast because of his huge hurtbox and fast-but-not-too-fast-falling. Samus has pretty decent aerial game and recovery (that's why she performs better against high tiers compared to link, ness and luigi) but her inability to combo and to grab forces her to stay on her toes all the game in order to apply pressure. Overall, i don't think those two characters are bad, but their options on each aspect of the game are limited (e.g. samus spacing bair 90% of the time), making them kind of One-Trick-Ponies.

C2. Low Tier (Lower Half):

Spoiler

Those characters have a versatile movesets and good pressure/combo options if they get an opener. Both also possess very high priority on their aerials and tilts. However, they are both hard to master and lack of decent options for recovering offstage. This basically means that they are very likey to lose a stock whenever thrown offstage. Link is somewhat slow and hasn't got a reliable grab: and while yoshi proves that you can be a rushdown character without a grab, this isn't clearly the case with Link. He is a projectile-heavy character with bad recovery, and he would love more options for when the opponent is being *in-his-face* (other than shdair or backwards-shfair or utilt). Ness also has the worst range in the game which makes it difficult for him to approach most characters and combo them.

D. Bottom Tier:

Spoiler

Luigi's upsides are a pretty good recovery (maybe top3 in the game), floatyness which prevents him to get comboed too hard, and good juggling-combo ability. Other than that, i think he has got very little to stand his ground. Notably, he has the worst short-hop in the game, worst projectile in the game, worst overall moveset-priority in the game, worst dash attack in the game and really bad speed. This results on him not being able to constantly land openers on many higher tied characters and having to wait for them to make a mistake: i can't honestly think of a matchup where Weegee has the upper hand maybe except a bit on Puff. On a sidenote for starters, his main advanced combo tool (sh-rising aerial-fastfall-aerial-zcancel) is pretty hard to learn, at least it was for me.

tl;dr: >>>>>>>>>>

Very good tier list, but why is luigi in a whole bottom tier of his own? Honestly Luigi isn't THAT bad. @ THE_MAAFIA

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

Lol didn't know you where in Europe, darn
And I just wanted to vs to show how he can approach and how he can counter and gimp characters very easily that's all :3

Hey MAAFIA we should play online sometime again, have ourselves a little low-tier battle between Ness and Luigi ^.^

Hmm, I might as well give some input here.

Ness sucks, but he doesn't suck as much as people tend to think. Definitely bottom three, but not dead last in the tier list. For a while I was having trouble against decent Samuses (like Cobre's for example) but that was due to my more aggressive style of play with Ness. Once I switched to a defensive playstyle, I was able to avoid many of those dairs and bairs and do much better.

The matchup against Samus is still pretty painful overall, but it's not *too* bad.

As others have stated, Ness' recovery can be read pretty easily but he does have *some* recovery options. Down B sweet spotting is overlooked quite a bit even in higher level play.

The Luigi/Ness matchup is pretty close, but I would have to probably lean towards Ness there. Luigi can be comboed easily enough and Ness' small size helps avoid combos along with good DI. Since most Luigi's tend to recover low, it's pretty easy to just dsmash and let the yoyo's range take care of that for ya. That goes for most opponents recovering low as well.

 

[Agony]

Very good tier list, but why is luigi in a whole bottom tier of his own? Honestly Luigi isn't THAT bad. @ THE_MAAFIA

Well maybe I've been too harsh with Mario's unlucky brother, and maybe I was a bit too much of a Falcon enthusiast (prolly he's down A2 with yoshi and fox) but I liked having a symmetrical tier list: 1, 2+2, 2, 2+2, 1.
I don't know, I don't have a matchup chart to back it up it's just a feeling.
I'll try to elaborate.

A. Is Luigi an hardcounter to any character on DL? No.
B. Does Luigi have favorable matchups on DL? Yes he does. Luigi-Jigglypuff is slightly on his favor.
C. Does Luigi have even matchups on DL? I'd say he's about even with Samus, DK and surely even against himself.
D. Does Luigi have slightly unfavorable and/or highly unfavorable matchups on DL? 12-4=8

Overall, we can all agree that Luigi is at best a bottom tier. In my opinion, he's a bottom tier that has his best matchups against mid/low mid tiers who let him have a somewhat easier opening to do his thing; and while he's not stricly bad, this it is not enough to make him a peer to ness and link. The latter characters have actually a better presence on stage. They just lack a recovery (which some top tiers lack as well) but they can play offensively with their priority, and trade without relying on their opponent to miss: and that's where Luigi is stuck in my opinion.
Link and Ness are also at least decent against Puff and/or Samus and they can play carefully against DK and punish his poor vertical recovery, so it's not like Luigi is unique in that sense. Link literally dominates the lower tiers and Ness can play the gimp game very well if he's not getting many openings (which in fact is, in most cases). That's why I feel Luigi belongs there.
But of course, that's my opinion and i'm not really feeling like starting a war over it.

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

Hey MAAFIA we should play online sometime again, have ourselves a little low-tier battle between Ness and Luigi ^.^

Hmm, I might as well give some input here.

Ness sucks, but he doesn't suck as much as people tend to think. Definitely bottom three, but not dead last in the tier list. For a while I was having trouble against decent Samuses (like Cobre's for example) but that was due to my more aggressive style of play with Ness. Once I switched to a defensive playstyle, I was able to avoid many of those dairs and bairs and do much better.

The matchup against Samus is still pretty painful overall, but it's not *too* bad.

As others have stated, Ness' recovery can be read pretty easily but he does have *some* recovery options. Down B sweet spotting is overlooked quite a bit even in higher level play.

The Luigi/Ness matchup is pretty close, but I would have to probably lean towards Ness there. Luigi can be comboed easily enough and Ness' small size helps avoid combos along with good DI. Since most Luigi's tend to recover low, it's pretty easy to just dsmash and let the yoyo's range take care of that for ya. That goes for most opponents recovering low as well.

Yea we should :3 and I think ness is awesome, I play him a lot, back then and now, but I don't go to crazy with him (djc a lot) his yoyo is pretty awesome and should be used more.
Oh btw did you know Ness's up tilt and up air gives him invincibilty frames on his head?? I just found that out! :D

 

[Kahnu]

Yea we should :3 and I think ness is awesome, I play him a lot, back then and now, but I don't go to crazy with him (djc a lot) his yoyo is pretty awesome and should be used more.
Oh btw did you know Ness's up tilt and up air gives him invincibilty frames on his head?? I just found that out! :D

I DJC VERY fast so when I DJC with Yoshi i have to wait a couple of seconds before firing attack or else it hits the ground to early, so Ness is just an easier option. Wanna play Hakeem?

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

I DJC VERY fast so when I DJC with Yoshi i have to wait a couple of seconds before firing attack or else it hits the ground to early, so Ness is just an easier option. Wanna play Hakeem?

I'll play tomorrow, I'm tired from smashing with sheermadness :3

 

[Capos]

D. Bottom Tier:
worst projectile in the game

PK Fire

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

PK Fire

I find many uses for PK Fire, more so than Luigi's linear fireball. Though the range is short and you get quite a bit of ending lag, you can do interesting things with it.

For example, you can use it to space against opponents that won't leave the ground (like Kirbies who keep dash-pivoting utilting/fsmashing or even Falcons). If it connects, you can try for a quick grab and hold the opponent in the fire for extra % before throwing off stage and going for a gimp/edgeguard or try to read the opponent's DI and punishing accordingly. If it doesn't connect, chances are that they'll have jumped in which case you can try for a djc'ed uair/bair or a utilt when they come back down (as long as you're confident that they don't see the utilt coming).

Since it stays out so long, it can be used as a makeshift wall.
Say a Mario is spamming fireballs against you. If you throw out a PK Fire to connect with one of those fireballs, the wall of fire will block all other fireballs coming at you from that direction. It will also make Mario think twice about approaching you since they'll not want to go through the fire wall. Sure they can try to approach from above, but uair/utilt should take care of most approaches coming from above. Yes, I'm aware of the invincibility frames and I LOVE them! @ THE_MAAFIA

You can also combo with PK Fires in very rare occasions, but it is possible. Just something to note.

I think Samus should be last, then Ness, then Luigi as third to last. Luigi has slightly better matchups against more characters than Ness and Ness sucks but Samus is pretty terrible. Yeah spacing and dair>bair for days but if you can dodge them, you're golden.

 

[Agony]

PK Fire

Well yeah.
I don't know why so many people are quoting and referring to that line, as if the whole point of his being bottom tier was his fireball.
Let's put it in a different way: in this game i can count 11 different projectiles, but only 6 have made their way in the advanced metagame as a spacing tool. Among those 6, Luigi's Fireball is for sure the worst: it is slow, predictable, it goes in a straight line (not covering the ground) and it decays pretty rapidly.

Ness' PK Fire, while technically being a projectile, is not used as a spacing tool: you don't go around spamming PK Fire and praying for the better. PK Fire is used as a niche technique for cornering and applying pressure to a misplaced opponent (and it is not even good in that role; i don't know, i've played very few good Nesses).
So practically i don't think PK Fire is worth considering a projectile and so it is not worse than Luigi's Fireball :D.

If you think i'm being cheesy, just think about Yoshi's Eggs. They have outstanding damage, priority, knockup, and versatile trajectory that makes them unpredictable. However, huge startup and ending lag make sure that you don't go around throwing eggs all the day long; you use them for edgeguarding and sometimes to stop opponents that are aircamping you.
Technically, eggs are a projectile that is not very suited for spacing games and thus are inferior to Luigi's Fireballs; practically, they serve a role that is different from the typical fighter game's projectile, and they are pretty good at what they do.

I'd have a good edgeguarding tool like eggs rather than a bad projectile like straight line fireballs...

P.S. This is just theorycrafting. I like playing Luigi, I like doing huge combos into downB or UpB, and I really love having Luigi dittos cuz they are easily top 3 funniest mirror matches in this game. I'm not hating on the character.

 

[Capos]

I find many uses for PK Fire, more so than Luigi's linear fireball. Though the range is short and you get quite a bit of ending lag, you can do interesting things with it.

I don't feel like I've ever seen it used in a match with good players. I'll have to watch some of your videos and learn some new moves.

Well yeah.
I don't know why so many people are quoting and referring to that line, as if the whole point of his being bottom tier was his fireball.
Let's put it in a different way: in this game i can count 11 different projectiles, but only 6 have made their way in the advanced metagame as a spacing tool. Among those 6, Luigi's Fireball is for sure the worst: it is slow, predictable, it goes in a straight line (not covering the ground) and it decays pretty rapidly.

...

So practically i don't think PK Fire is worth considering a projectile and so it is not worse than Luigi's Fireball :D.

To be clear, I wasn't saying he's not the worst because of his projectile. I don't even think I'm good enough at the game to accurately say who's the worst, just didn't think it was the worst projectile. Although pika's projectile isn't one of those 6 and you mentioned it, so I wasn't clear that you were only talking those six. (Speaking of which...Luigi, Mario, Fox, Link x 2...one of Samus'?)

If you think i'm being cheesy, just think about Yoshi's Eggs. They have outstanding damage, priority, knockup, and versatile trajectory that makes them unpredictable. However, huge startup and ending lag make sure that you don't go around throwing eggs all the day long; you use them for edgeguarding and sometimes to stop opponents that are aircamping you.
Technically, eggs are a projectile that is not very suited for spacing games and thus are inferior to Luigi's Fireballs; practically, they serve a role that is different from the typical fighter game's projectile, and they are pretty good at what they do.

I'd have a good edgeguarding tool like eggs rather than a bad projectile like straight line fireballs...

Oh I would have definitely said Yoshi's projectile is better than Luigi's using this same logic. Seems like you're just using a stricter definition of projectile.

 

[Agony]

(Speaking of which...Luigi, Mario, Fox, Link x 2...one of Samus'?)

Yes. The other five are Yoshi's Eggs, Ness' PK Fire and PK Thunder, Pikachu's Thunderbolt and Kirby's Sworddrop (upB) which releases a projectile.

Seems like you're just using a stricter definition of projectile.

Yes, probably. Have you played street fighter? That's my definition of projectile; when you're an offensive character trying to approach a shotokan character (e.g. ryu, ken) and they do nothing but Hadouken! Hadouken! Hadouken! and sink your face into a sea of fireballs. If Ryu had Luigi's fireballs, he'd be Z tier :D

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

I don't feel like I've ever seen it used in a match with good players. I'll have to watch some of your videos and learn some new moves.

Hmm, here's a few instances where PK Fire was used:
http://youtu.be/-htX2Xgm8kk?t=8m45s
Contrary to the audio, I didn't land a hit after the PK Fire but what I'm showcasing here is the reading I did that allowed me to connect a PK Fire and do some extra damage. It also stopped Kirby from just following me down to the lower right area and getting in a drill leading to a combo.

http://youtu.be/-htX2Xgm8kk?t=11m29s
Due to Kirby's huge startup for his UpB, I was able to see it coming from a mile away. I used PK Fire to not only stop the projectile but also hinder Kirby's approaches afterwards (he tried for a fsmash but it was interrupted by the wall). I then dashed in, grabbed, bthrowed and tried to follow up with a uair to take the stock but I missed that last uair, lol woops!

http://youtu.be/-htX2Xgm8kk?t=11m58s
Simple spacing. If it were to connect, I would have probably followed up with a string of dair tech chases and finished off with a uair or throw.

There are a few other times where I've used PK Fire throughout that match, some working out in my favor and others not so much. Though risky, the payoff can be really darn good if used right.

http://youtu.be/-htX2Xgm8kk?t=42m37s
Here's an instance of an opponent DI'ing out of a PK Fire. Since they DI'ed away, I wasn't really able to follow up but at least I got a bit of damage in and prevented Yoshi from trying for some sort of edge combo leading to a gimp that are so darn common with good Yoshi's.

 

[Kahnu]

The thing I don;'t like is that yoimply that luigi's fireball is a bad move

 

[Probalo]

I don't feel that Fox is that much worse. But is less viable nonetheless.

 

[Link24a]

I don't feel that Fox is that much worse. But is less viable nonetheless.

he's still quite valid but doesn't deserve the #3 spot anymore. falcon and mario overtake him IMO.
well... maybe not mario

 

[Kahnu]

MARIO > FOX?

LOL

 

[Capos]

Wow I completely forgot that Fox was third on the most recent list and that close to Kirby. Hyrule was legal back then, but still.

 

[Kahnu]

Wow I completely forgot that Fox was third on the most recent list and that close to Kirby. Hyrule was legal back then, but still.

falcon > fox

fox > mario

 

[Sedda]

fox is way better than mario.

fox beats falcon on DL but i wouldnt put fox over falcon

edited a mistake

 

[Annex]

fox is way better than mario

 

[Kahnu]

huh?

 

[Link24a]

that image doesn't show

 

[Cedricwa]

that image doesn't show

 

[Sedda]

fox reks mario and is a way better character overall

 

[Kahnu]

Now I see it, lol. Sammy the Sonic fan.

 

[PKMudkip]

Well, there's two reasons I'm making this. First, Hyrule is banned so Link and Fox are much worse and characters like Falcon and DK are much better now that Dreamland is a guarenteed first stage. Second, Pikachu seems less dominating wherever you look, but it's probably because nobody plays him. It's almost like a soft ban. So with this in mind :

S Tier :
- Pikachu
A Tier :
- Kirby
- Falcon
- Fox
B Tier :
- Mario
- Yoshi
C Tier :
- DK
- Jiggs
D Tier
- Luigi
- Ness
- Link
- Samus

Just my opinions so take it with a grain of salt. Also keep in mind this is probably the most balanced smash game along with Smash 4, so the only non-viable characters could just be Samus and Link.

I feel like Ness should actually be C tier along with Luigi. Other than that, I feel that is a good representation of the smash bros 64 tiers.

 

[Kahnu]

will not agree to tier list until I see Ness and Luigi above Link.

 

[IrkenPPG]

Tier List seems fine. Just Ness and Yoshi should be C. Ness is ok and Yoshi isn't B in 64.

 

[BananaBolts]

Yoshi isn't B in 64.

Explain your rationale behind this rather bold statement.

 

[Deleted member]

I really feel Yoshi can be a contender for 2nd tier, knocking Kirby down to 3rd. To be honest, most of the Kirbies I have faced thus far, I have beaten. I just make it a point, that I absolutely avoid fmashes and dairs. And out space of course.

 

[Technical_Knockout]

with perfect play yoshi is probably the best character but it's easy to get knocked out of your second jump & gimped and his advanced techs are tricky to pull off.

kirby is just so easy & effective to use so don't expect a switch anytime soon, despite your results vs. (probably not very good) kirbys... i mean no offense but that's not a good match-up for our dino friend.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi has not been used to full potential yet, but is getting there. I believe that once Yoshi is REALLY mastered, he is unbeatable. And a positive indication of this is by tacos and Wizzrobe at this past years Apex. You're right Kirby is cheap and easy, but that doesn't equate to being a good character. Fsmash, dair, uptilt, what else? All these moves can easily be avoided and punished by a patient and spacy Yoshi. So no offense, but you are wrong. Yoshi > Kirby ten times over.

 

[Technical_Knockout]

never said kirby was cheap, but he IS a good character for plenty of reasons:

what else, you asked? shield breaks, damaging combos, excellent recovery, awesome gimps, ability-stealing, turning around in mid-air, changing size with mid-air up-b, overall pressure game, b-air, n-air, f-air, u-air (set knockback can kill a recovering yoshi), d-tilt (nasty semi-spike, best in the game), f-tilt, jabs, dash attack, down smash, down-b edgeguards, up-b edgeguards, neutral b shenanigans, take your pick...

as i recall a japanese kirby player WON apex 2 years ago & took 2nd behind isai last year. yoshi is awesome & one of my favorite (and best!) chars but sorry no, he's not there yet.

 

[Deleted member]

as i recall a japanese kirby player WON apex 2 years ago & took 2nd behind isai last year. yoshi is awesome & one of my favorite (and best!) chars but sorry no, he's not there yet.

"2 years ago."

 

[Technical_Knockout]

"WON apex".

 

[Meister Zeigler]

Is Link really that bad in SSB64?

 

[Glasgowsmile]

Is Link really that bad in SSB64?

Bad? No. However he has zero tolerance for mistakes and unless your skill level with link greatly exceeds the skill level of your opponent, your chances of winning get very slim. Link is one of the most fragile if not THE most fragile character in ssb64. One screw up from your part and you´re likely to lose the stock; push link away from the map - he´s basically dead meat against any decent edgeguarder.