New Tier List: No Longer Active

[prisonchild]

for what it's worth i think fox has a lot more upside than falcon, but since it's a 2013 tier list we should stick with what we've seen


also what does high level play mean? like elite high level or what?

 

[ballin4life]

Fox certainly has better matchups against both Kirby and Mario, as well as, for what it's worth, a slightly better recovery, as he actually has a few ways to mix things up. He also has unparalleled stage control.

I think Falcon's recovery is better in some spots. Fox's upB has that charge time that makes it a lot easier to intercept, and Falcon's upB can get grabs sometimes. I'd say Fox is much better recovering high but Falcon's better recovering low. On CJ Falcon's recovery might be superior. Either way though neither recovery is great.

Falcon shouldn't be rewarded just because his combos are easy and less susceptible to error. The tier list is supposed to be on the highest level of play, so more difficult Fox combos should still carry the same weight as easy Falcon combos.

It still depends on the difficulty of the Fox combo. Otherwise you can start claiming that "at highest levels" Fox can shine break on any shield so Fox should be SSS tier. If at highest levels of play these difficult Fox combos are 100% automatic then I agree with you, but if they are still very difficult even for highly skilled players then you can't count them the same way.

 

[asianaussie]

unless hyrule is banned completely i do not believe falcon should be over fox - a fox player of the highest caliber theoretically gets a match against anyone except pika (yay theorycrafting)

right now there's the same dilemma lots of games face: this character (fox) is better than the other (falcon, kirby) theoretically, but his potential hasn't been shown in-tournament - perhaps isai's fox at the last apex was representative of that, i remember it being stunning, and i dont get phased easily by 64 videos (note that the videos were on hyrule iirc)

for whatever my noob input is worth, i think

S+
Pika

S
Kirby
Fox
Falcon

no further division really needed imo, falcon is a very practical tournament character who has performed well enough to deserve his placement

 

[M!nt]

Fox > Falcon on DL and hyrule imo

 

[Nintendude]

I don't think this should be overwhelmingly based off of tournament results due to the small sample size.

 

[thegreginator]

If at highest levels of play these difficult Fox combos are 100% automatic then I agree with you, but if they are still very difficult even for highly skilled players then you can't count them the same way.

Agreed.

There are definitely Fox combos out there that essentially guarantee a kill that can be pulled off consistently. Maybe Falcon has a few more, but Fox's better approach puts him ahead of Falcon IMO.

 

[Doomolish]

I'm gonna ask Peru for their oppinion. They're the strongest region in the world IMO, so they should know about this kind of things. Even though they're Hyrule only.

 

[Battlecow]

I don't think this should be overwhelmingly based off of tournament results due to the small sample size.

This

10this's

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

SS
Pikachu

S
Kirby
Fox
Falcon

 

[King Omega]

Pikachu
--------------
Fox
Kirby
--------------
Falcon

Falcon is good and stuff but his recovery is garbage and his approach is transparent

Kirby is almost definitely not > Fox

Pikachu da bess

 

[Olikus]

Yes Apex ruleset.

Pika is for sure #1

It seems that Falcon is #4 for the most part. A few people have him at #3 and fox at #4, but overall Falcon at #4 is the trend, especially since a number of people are putting fox at #2 which offsets people putting him at #4.

Fox is spread between #2, 3, and 4, while kirby is only spread between #2 and #3. For this reason I'm thinking kirby #2, fox # 3 is the most accurate order at the moment.

This is horrible reasoning. Dont count and add up votes. If you are gonna use a panel, the panel should choose the posts that have The best points and explanation. I say just hop over people who only post lists and dont explain. That way you Get rid off noob/troll post much easier.

 

[VVilde]

There should be a tier list for 1v1s and a separate tier list for 2v2s. take sum of rankings for each character from both lists. create grand tier list

 

[<Fruity>]

In DL:


1-

2-

3-

4-




imo

 

[RickySSB]

SS
Samus - Link

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Work in progress

As we are talking about the top 4 specifically

Hyrule
​

1- Still the best, I don't think this is arguable on any stage. Specifically for Hyrule, Pikachu has the best camping ability on this stage due to the stupid high priority, aerial speed, and the ability to get out of combos

2- I find lasers to be incredibly good on this map. Hyrule is campy and well if you wish to be lame, Fox wins by camping. The only character lamer on Hyrule is Pikachu. I think the issue is that people don't want to camp with Fox on hyrule. I tend to see people rushing everyone down which I do not understand in a tournament setting. I also believe a campy Fox has the best chance vs. Pikachu in terms of any matchup outside of possibly Falcon-Pikachu on DL.

3- Can camp really well. Kirby is on top of platforms=d-air/b-air any approach. Kirby is on the ground= B-air and u-tilt walls

4- It isn't that Falcon is bad on Hyrule but rather that the characters above do simply better on Hyrule. Falcon is in general better in close quarters vs. Fox and Pikachu. Falcon gets walled on Hyrule.

Dreamland: Will finish thoughts later
​

​

1- See above, only difference is that Pikachu gimps easier than any character

2-

3-

4-

Congo: Will finish thoughts later
​

1-

2-

3-

4-

Peach's: Will finish thoughts later, Fox MIGHT switch with Falcon as I am rather bias as I tend to cp people on this stage as Falcon

1-
​

2-

3-

4-

For number crunchers, aka average tier list position/my personal tier list so far: Hyrule and Dreamland are counted twice as they are played twice as much (even compared to Congo)

​

1- 1 (+1),1 (+1,) 1,1: 6/6 = 1

2- 3 (+3,) 2 (+2), 2, 2 14/6 = 2.33, etc.

3- 2, (+2), 4(+4), 3,4 19/6 = 3.166, etc.

4-

4 (+4), 3(+3), 4, 3 21/6 =3.5

 

[Dingus]

For number crunchers:

Pikachu: 1,1,1,1: 4/4 = 1

Kirby, 3, 2, 2, 2 9/4 = 2.25

Fox: 2, 4, 3,3 12/4 = 3

Falcon: 4, 3, 4, 4 15/4 =3.75 (approx)

All 4 stages probably shouldnt get equal weighting, since they get significantly different amounts of play time in tournament.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

All 4 stages probably shouldnt get equal weighting, since they get significantly different amounts of play time in tournament.

Good point, I'll double hyrule and dreamland as they are played basically twice as much if not more compared to Peach's and the

Spoiler

forever alone

neutral Congo Jungle

 

[Nintendude]

I think Link is a contender for top-4 on Hyrule lol

 

[Yobolight]

I think the order is relatively agreed upon (Maybe Apex ruleset puts Falcon > Fox?).

The tier breakdown is the somewhat controversial though.

 

[Sedda]

I think Link is a contender for top-4 on Hyrule lol

I know I'm new here, and I don't even play competitively, but why are you guys still going back to the idea of one tier list?

You guys look at the fact that your community is smaller than Melee's as a negative thing (not many examples to go on to defend points for the tier list), but a smaller sized community means less variability between characters play-styles across the globe (within one same version of the game), which helps you guys consider stages in a much more free environment than Melee ever could.

This game is older than Melee, and the way the metagame has evolved has been much different from the other two games(I've been following you guys for two years). The fact that several of you are at an above-average level with all characters and are able to decisively point out stage advantages (demonstrated plenty of times on this thread) shows that the single tier list model is maybe outdated, at least for the age of this particular game and manner in which it has evolved.

If the whole point of the new tier list is to show that your community is active, then just make four tier lists based on stages and that's it. The SSB64 metagame is different even in the way you guys are allowed to analyze it due to the smaller character roster. There's no point in coming up with average placements on the tier list. In my opinion, once you try to apply average numerical values to something as abstract as playing ability, your logic goes down the drain.

Just discuss tier lists stage by stage starting with Hyrule until you're done. You could have a general tier list that's not stage dependent, but, once again, you should only consider official the stage tier lists for tournament play.

I might get yelled at here, but I hope you guys consider it.

 

[Battlecow]

I think Link is a contender for top-4 on Hyrule lol

No

No he's not

honestly what even gives you that idea lol

not even close, even for like isai (and he's the only person who plays link)

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

No

No he's not

honestly what even gives you that idea lol

not even close, even for like isai (and he's the only person who plays link)

Well boom has said that before

I think Link is 5th, tied or above Mario

 

[asianaussie]

boom said he was below only pika and fox

i dont think it's quite that ridiculous, but he does have an amazing matchup spread on hyrule (except vs fox, and pika is still a disadvantage of some sort)

 

[Battlecow]

boom's being ridiculous with the theory craft, I remember him saying something nuts but not that nuts

Isai's link is one of his better characters relative to tier position, right? Plays him a lot, etc.

boom ****s it up even on hyrule

would boom **** up isai's kirby on hyrule? we know he wouldn't **** up isai's mario on hyrule. come on now mang

 

[asianaussie]

that's pretty much what he said when he put in his backroom list

i dont think he's that high, more like...below yoshi, above mario? maybe above yoshi (so 5th, i guess)

Spoiler

let's be fair, my link beat ciaza's kirby on hyrule, and ciaza is like top 5 in the world, which should definitely say something

 

[Nintendude]

Link really is stupidly good on Hyrule. Falcon just happens to be one of the characters that can catch him due to his speed, but Link messes the rest of the cast up there, especially Kirby.

 

[Kink-Link5]

SSSS+
Pikachu

SSS-
Kirby

SS+
Fox

S
Falcon

AAA
Mario

AA-
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
DK

A+
Link

BB+
Ness

BB-
Luigi
Samus

Imo

 

[Olikus]

People love link lol. Fox and mario camps better on hyrule. Link is only very good there when he can throw a mix of boomerang and bombs there. If you pressure him, much of The cast can reach him before he gets his bombs out. Even DK who gets ***** by campy marios and foxes has a great defence vs links boomerangs. If you pressure him, he isnt fast enough too run away.

 

[Han Solo]

Fox above Falcon on Congo is ridiculous. Everything Falcon does on DL, he does the same or better on Congo. Fox's laser game is really affected too. (Also, you can't shine-cancel so well on all the angled/moving parts, but that's just nitpicking).

 

[Fish641]

We don't really need 9 tiers for a cast of 12. Seriously, having 3-4 should cover it. Everyone knows that Pika is the best. That doesn't mean he needs to be SSS and have Fox, Kirby, and possibly Falcon as SS. Just put them all together.

 

[WOTG]

This reminds me of Kaillera where apparently I ruin chats (lol), where on here I'm one of the stupid posters, but yet threads like these are constantly filled with stupid comments and unnecessary bickering, while "I" for example would usually state the obvious. But nope, I just ruin things.

Oh yeah, the tier list was fine the way it was (obviously) so to be very honest, this thread was stupid, sorry.

 

[clubbadubba]

^^And again that's completely missing the point. Tier lists should be revisited fairly often to make sure they are still representative of the current gameplay and to keep the community active. You say the old one was perfectly fine, but here a good number of people have opinions that would disagree with that. The community is bigger than just one person's "obvious" opinion. Your opinion of the tiers is noted though.

And yea link ***** on hyrule

 

[King Omega]

Everything Falcon does on DL, he does the same or better on Congo.

I don't think this is true at all. The slopes are obnoxious and Falcon cannot platform pressure nearly as well because the static platforms are higher (and the middle ones for obvious reasons).

 

[Frogles]

you don't say...

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I don't think this is true at all. The slopes are obnoxious and Falcon cannot platform pressure nearly as well because the static platforms are higher (and the middle ones for obvious reasons).

i agree with this guy
I kinda dislike Falcon (and Fox for similar reasons) on Congo

 

[Sangoku]

TAS results: Mario-Fox is 75:25.

 

[Kimimaru]

TAS doesn't count in a game where humans are playing. Also, the TASer decides who wins those matches because both characters would technically be playing perfectly, which creates a weird loop because each character would be avoiding all of the enemy's attacks yet since both characters are perfect they would also be hitting with every attack.

In human play, I'd say Fox wins the matchup 60:40. Mario is amazing at gimping Fox but Fox has lasers which make everyone's lives harder. Fox's aerials also straight up beat out almost all of Mario's easily, which makes it hard for Mario to come back from the edge.

 

[The Star King]

SSSS+
Pikachu

SSS-
Kirby

SS+
Fox

S
Falcon

AAA
Mario

AA-
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
DK

A+
Link

BB+
Ness

BB-
Luigi
Samus

Imo

oh my ****ing god at those tier names/separations lmao

This reminds me of Kaillera where apparently I ruin chats (lol), where on here I'm one of the stupid posters, but yet threads like these are constantly filled with stupid comments and unnecessary bickering, while "I" for example would usually state the obvious. But nope, I just ruin things.

Oh yeah, the tier list was fine the way it was (obviously) so to be very honest, this thread was stupid, sorry.

You brought it up yet AGAIN? o_O Dude, I'm genuinely sorry if I hurt your feelings with that comment and I apologize. It wasn't that serious.

 

[kys]

Han Solo is the man and knows what he's talking about

 

[Sangoku]

TAS doesn't count in a game where humans are playing. Also, the TASer decides who wins those matches because both characters would technically be playing perfectly, which creates a weird loop because each character would be avoiding all of the enemy's attacks yet since both characters are perfect they would also be hitting with every attack.

In human play, I'd say Fox wins the matchup 60:40. Mario is amazing at gimping Fox but Fox has lasers which make everyone's lives harder. Fox's aerials also straight up beat out almost all of Mario's easily, which makes it hard for Mario to come back from the edge.

There was a lot of inside jokes in my post, but since I haven't seen you post very often in the 64 boards I'll explain them:
TAS: because I suck at this game, but I'm more known as a TAS user.
Fox-Mario matchup: because ballin had trouble with it.
75:25: because it was agreed upon that ratio didn't mean anything and should be dropped.

So, my post was not serious in any way.