New Tier List: No Longer Active

[KoRoBeNiKi]

So it isn't going to be a general discussion like last time. It seemed to work well, regardless of how long it took.

I would make a different list per stage...and then the final list being the average of the three...actually this wont work as people have no clue about Congo, lol.

We would also need to decide whether peach's castle should be included

 

[clubbadubba]

Nintendude I left off because I feel he's too specialized. He plays mario, and has that pocket pikachu (that everyone has) but TO MY KNOWLEDGE he isn't high level with any other characters.

That's the same reason firo is a maybe, though now that I think of it he does play quite a few characters at high level. And not that anyone said anything YET but that's why kefit is not on my list.

Frogles should def be on it, my bad.

You'll also notice that everyone on my list was at the very least borderline S tier. Remember this is for highest level play so I'm hesitant to even get into low A tier players.

 

[M!nt]

I vote the legendary mint to be on panel


















jk
ballin? sheer?

 

[b-rex]

S
1. Pika
2. Kirby

A
3. Fox
4. Falcon

B
5. Mario
6. Yoshi
7. Jiggles

C
8. Ness
9. DK
10. Luigi
11. Link
12. Samus


just wanted to get my thoughts out there..not sure if this is exactly like another tier list that was suggested

 

[clubbadubba]

Updated the first post to include players that have been nominated without protest and have accepted to be on the panel

So far just Star King

boom was here viewing the thread but didn't post, I guess he's not COOL ENOUGH to be on the panel

 

[Nintendude]

Nintendude I left off because I feel he's too specialized. He plays mario, and has that pocket pikachu (that everyone has) but TO MY KNOWLEDGE he isn't high level with any other characters.

That's the same reason firo is a maybe, though now that I think of it he does play quite a few characters at high level. And not that anyone said anything YET but that's why kefit is not on my list.

Frogles should def be on it, my bad.

You'll also notice that everyone on my list was at the very least borderline S tier. Remember this is for highest level play so I'm hesitant to even get into low A tier players.

I'm pretty competent with most of the characters actually. I just only wanted to practice Mario and Pika for Apex so that's all I've used recently. I think most high level SSB players are knowledgeable enough about the whole cast to get involved.

 

[Battlecow]

Nintendude plays a bunch of chars at or near his mario's level

 

[clubbadubba]

Didn't know that. He's moved to my maybe list. I still think it would be ideal to get 3 or 4 people off of my definite list (maybe excluding the region reps, though by all account Bear is super duper legit) that are willing to participate and have that be the panel. I think that's unlikely given the attitudes of those players. That being said, I'm certainly not going to fight to keep players like nintendude, firo, and tacos off of the panel lol. I'd only fight to keep players like me off the panel.

 

[cmu6eh]

I object to every person on the list.

 

[clubbadubba]

Do you really? Or are you just being steve the troublemaker?

 

[cmu6eh]

Try it like this: These are the individual things on a controller that convert input into a signal:
1) Analog stick
2) A Button
3) B Button
4) C button(s)
5) Z Button
6) R button
7) L button

Lets assume the Analog stick is mandatory for play. This means there are 6 different buttons used to play. We should methodically come up with a tier list for every set of buttons in the set of all subsets of those six buttons. That is 64 tier lists. Z and C (+ Analog) do nothing on their own, so those two instances can be ignored, and thus you have 62 tier lists to create. To create the tier lists, assume you can have frame perfect inputs without mistakes. Use a matchup matrix to see who wins the most, to order the tiers, and to determine ties. Assume the level is Final Destination and each character has one life (you can assume different levels but then it becomes extremely complicated.

Start with the single button teir lists, and then you only need to determine how (and if) the addition of buttons alters the previous kill-solutions.

This is an intractable task. No one will do it. That's why I object to all the people on the list. Now, if people approximated it by creating Bots to compete against each other, that I could agree with.

 

[clubbadubba]

It seems like you just don't like tier lists because they don't approximate perfect play. You know that is not what a tier list is meant to represent, right? Tier lists represent character placement based on the CURRENT LEVEL of highest form metagame. Meaning people, not frame perfect robots. I don't know why I'm even explaining this because I'm pretty sure everyone already knows this...

If you don't like tier lists then I guess this thread is not for you. Unless you can get past your dislike and realize that the list is for the betterment of the community and not to make a profound statement about character order.

 

[Yobolight]

I see you put Star King in definite, Is he that good?
Like so much better than Battlecow, Sheer, Ballin4life and Tank that you wouldn't put them in "maybe?

I never knew StarKing was on the same level as Jaime.

 

[clubbadubba]

better than bcow, ballin, and tank for sure. I think he has sheer's number based on everything I've heard. Plus legit with all 12 characters. He's probably about Sensei's level.

 

[jimmyjoe]

I definitely think Nintendude and firo should be on the list. They are both well rounded with every character and its fair to say- among the best in the world. If we keep players at that level out. You should just ask malva, boom, kikoushi, jouske, and gerson and take whatt they say at face value.
I think the highest level of play we are talking about here should be a little bit broader, otherwise it's almost useless to 99% of the community.
The logic behind only considering the opinions of the best, I understand, but you might as well just ask isai by using that logic. I think it would be more useful to consider a teir list an approximation of character balance in a match of evenly skilled players around the highest 10%(maybe?) of the competitive community.

 

[AtotheZ]

-I object to starking due to

Spoiler

keyboard usage

-I nominate #YOBO


Also, my tier list

Pikachu Tier:
Pikachu

Not Quite Pikachu Tier:
Fox
Kirby

He's Good if You Know How to Use Him Tier:
Ness
Link

"He's Okay" Tier
Falcon
Mario
Yoshi

You Probably Don't Know How to Fight These Characters Tier
DK
Samus
Luigi
Jigglypuff

 

[Battlecow]

IDK I think the panel should be more than 4 people

but are there even more than 4 people good enough lol

Star King's pretty good, not sure if he deserves to be on there/if he's at sensei's level but he's better than like nintendude/sheer for sure

 

[firo]

Thinking of players for a panel and all that I don't think is a good use of our time. We've been discussing player skill levels for quite a while now and I don't think the conversations get anywhere. I agree with jimmyjoe that we would really need to define the idea of "good player" or "top level" or "metagame" because in reality that only includes players that I can count on one hand.

The concept of making a new tier list is interesting, but again we have been discussing that for a while, and we already had a "panel" (the backroom, which most of the members people are advocating for this panel were a part of) which made the list in the first place, and it was decided that the backroom is not a good idea. The only justification that I see for that list changing is:

-A ruleset change, like different stage lists

-Taking tournament results into consideration

Both of these seem to not be happening at the moment. I can say for myself, that I think the tier list is good right now (I don't get all this mario hate - when the backroom members all voted on the tier list, I voted for the current order), the ruleset does not seem to be changing, and looking at the apex results I do not think we had enough lower tier characters to make any significant conclusion. If anything, the results seem to be pretty consistent with the list we have. I'd be fine with republishing the existing list if getting a new tier list out is something that we want to do.

 

[XKCP]

Thinking of players for a panel and all that I don't think is a good use of our time. We've been discussing player skill levels for quite a while now and I don't think the conversations get anywhere.

I can say for myself, that I think the tier list is good right now (I don't get all this mario hate), the ruleset does not seem to be changing, and looking at the apex results I do not think we had enough lower tier characters to make any significant conclusion. If anything, the results seem to be pretty consistent with the list we have. I'd be fine with republishing the existing list if getting a new tier list out is something that we want to do.

I can definitely agree to both of these (the rest was fine too). The tier list is not wrong, but some of us here think it could use slight revisions (some of which have been argued since the dawn of time really). For the purpose of labeling a current tier list, firo's take on the situation hits the nail on the head.

 

[Olikus]

Firo said it. Well said.

 

[cmu6eh]

Tier lists represent character placement based on the CURRENT LEVEL of highest form metagame. Meaning people, not frame perfect robots. I don't know why I'm even explaining this because I'm pretty sure everyone already knows this...

Fine. Lets look at the highest level of play.

Isai's Pika won against Gerson's pika 60% of the time.
Isai's Fox won against Gerson's pika 64% of the time.
Therefore, Fox > Pikachu (on hyrule)

Isai's Pika lost 4 out of 10 lives against Kikoshi's kriby.
Isai's Fox lost 6 out of 10 lives against Kikoshi's kriby.
Isai's Kirby lost 13 of of 15 lives against Kikoshi's kirby.
Therefore Pika > Fox > Kirby (on Dreamland)

Your tier list should have Fox and Pika almost a tie, with pika winning just because of the level selection rules, and then Kirby should be in a different class of those two.

SS: Pika
S: Fox
A: Kirby, etc

 

[The Star King]

lol @ cmu6eh being intentionally obtuse

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

god i hope so

 

[AtotheZ]

lol @ cmu6eh being intentionally obtuse

you're acute guy, what do you have to say on the matter?

 

[cmu6eh]

lol @ cmu6eh being intentionally obtuse

What an acute observation.

 

[The Star King]

you're acute guy

Thanks for the complementary reply

What an acute observation.

Seems about right. I cosine this statement.

 

[XKCP]

Thanks for the complementary reply



Seems about right. I cosine this statement.

When you give me insight into that specific angle of view, I start to see that you may be right.

 

[thegreginator]

Realistically starting from scratch and overturning the current tier list is never going to happen. And it doesn't need to since it's what most people who know what they're talking about agree on. If there is one specific placement that judges/whoever feel is off in the current tier list, let's devote the limited attention span of the community to those instances.

 

[AtotheZ]

Not everyone agrees on the current tier list. There are parts that anyone in the community will agree on (pika as 1), but most of the spots are up for grabs. If you look at how the current tier list was created, it was voted on by the backroom, and by individual votes it seemed like there was a lot that can be debated. Anyone from Yoshi to Samus on the tier list had a deviation anywhere from 3 to 6 different positions on the tier list.

I think it will always be up to debate, and for good reason.

 

[Yobolight]

If nothing else at least Mario and Yoshi need their own tier.

 

[ballin4life]

Thinking of players for a panel and all that I don't think is a good use of our time. We've been discussing player skill levels for quite a while now and I don't think the conversations get anywhere.

I agree.

just wanted to get my thoughts out there..not sure if this is exactly like another tier list that was suggested

Yeah let's just start posting lists and then we can start arguing about tier lists rather than player skill levels.

SS
Pika

S
Kirby

A
Falcon
Fox (S tier on Hyrule tho)

B
Yoshi
Mario

C (not as confident on this tier)
Ness
Jiggs
DK
Luigi
Samus
Link (B tier on Hyrule tho)

Comments:
This is VERY specific to the current ruleset

I moved Falcon above Fox because Falcon is really good on DL and Congo and Fox suffers quite a bit on those stages, especially relative to how good Fox is on Hyrule. I think the results from APEX show this pretty well - no one in the top 12 used Fox for important matches besides JaimeHR, and he was probably 50/50 between Fox and Falcon.

In fact, with APEX rules in best of 5 a Fox player can only win 1 counterpick on Hyrule - this is a big disadvantage relative to the ruleset during the time of the previous tier lists (one prominent ruleset back then had Hyrule as the sole starter stage!).

I moved Link down for the same reason, though I'm not as confident on that one because I don't play Link. I feel like Link is really really bad on DL though (dunno about CJ). Also I think you can justify Samus moving up given that eg JaimeHR played Samus in serious matches at APEX 2012 (vs Kefit). And I know it's J version but Jousuke is one of the best J players and uses primarily Samus (and is J Samus that different?).

I moved Yoshi > Mario because Yoshi has slightly better matchups IMO across the board.

I moved Ness up quite a bit since at APEX we had 2 Ness mains in the top 12, compared to 1 Jiggs (I believe YBOMBB used primarily Jiggs for serious matches - at least he did against Kefit). Of course, some of that is due to Jiggs/DK being less popular as "main" characters.

I left Luigi > Samus / Link just because Ruoka Danchon beasted with Luigi as a counterpick during APEX. I admittedly don't know much about those 3 characters though.

 

[clubbadubba]

Okay soooooooo no panel then? Whatever lets just get this list out.

Current list (found here):

S tier
1. Pikachu

A Tier
2. Kirby
3. Fox

B tier
4. C Falc
5. Mario

C tier
6. Yoshi
7. DK
8. Jigglypuff
9. Ness

D tier
10. Link
11. Luigi
12. Samus

I guess we can just mention our gripes with this list and vote if they are legit or not? I'll go first.

S and A tier: all good here.

B tier: I think Yoshi should be in this tier. Yoshi/Mario are pretty close as it is, there is no reason to have them in separate tiers.

C tier: Yoshi is a head above these characters imo. Order seems about right other than that.

D tier: Switch Samus and Luigi. Samus has been shown to be a viable option in tourney play, specifically in Jaime vs Kefit, 2 fairly evenly matched opponents. Luigi still seems pretty useless.

*I am very tempted to push Ness down to D tier below Link. The only thing stopping me is that Link has not been shown to be tourney viable (outside of Isai rofl stomping everyone but the best/2nd best falcon in NA), while Ness has by people like Nangoku and Firo.

 

[ballin4life]

fyi clubba link and luigi are actually tied at 10 on the current tier list

 

[Tom Bombadil]

I know that I have no right to say anything at all in regard to a tier list because of my inexperience with high level play.

That being said, how does the community feel about DK's placement? I've always wondered why he was so high. That may simply be because not a lot of DK mains post stuff online for me to watch. I know he's pretty gimp-able and slow so I wondered if he has good matchups or hitboxes to make up for it?

 

[Yobolight]

DK has upB.

 

[Mahie]

Just revive the backroom or something for this?

as in get about the same panel as last time, should be about relevant enough.

 

[XKCP]

I know that I have no right to say anything at all in regard to a tier list because of my inexperience with high level play.

That being said, how does the community feel about DK's placement? I've always wondered why he was so high. That may simply be because not a lot of DK mains post stuff online for me to watch. I know he's pretty gimp-able and slow so I wondered if he has good matchups or hitboxes to make up for it?

I've often thought the same. I've watched Boom play DK and a few other people who do well (blanking on names), but I've thought that Jiggz can at least go even with him on the list if not above. He doesn't have to drop that far at all, but he seems too mid tier list compared to how I look at him.

(Let's be honest, dash attack having frame advantage over Kirby's utilt is badass)

 

[Yobolight]

My current opinion based on current rule set.

S tier
1. Pikachu

A Tier
2. Kirby
3. Fox

B tier
4. C Falc
5. Mario
6. Yoshi

C tier
7. Jigglypuff
9. Ness (Tie)
9. DK (Tie)

D tier
10. Samus
11. Luigi
12. Link

 

[The Star King]

I don't like the way you guys are doing this.

eff you ballin for starting this disorganized mess

 

[Olikus]

The best way is to discuss MU on all The legal stages and then sum up. But I guess it will take to much time. I allso think most people are satisfied with The current list. Yoshi might be a bit better and Ness should be in The lowest tier but no big changes imo.