New Tier List: No Longer Active

[Cobrevolution]

I refuse to play it or Kirby-Ness.

well that's a bit foolish

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

stage-specific tiers for DL and Hyrule

Dreamland

SS
Pikachu

S
Kirby
Falcon
Fox

A
Mario
Yoshi

B
DK
Jiggs
Ness

C
Luigi
Link
Samus

_________

Hyrule

SS
Pikachu

S
Fox
Falcon

A
Mario
Kirby

B
DK
Yoshi
Link

C
Jiggs
Samus
Luigi
Ness

Discuss and criticize

 

[Battlecow]

keep in mind that kefit is a console player with little experience in the ness MU

 

[clubbadubba]

yea kefit gets ***** in easy pikachu matchups if he has no experience with them. Like Jaime with the samus counterpick at apex 2012. Sheer's yoshi dominating him too. Its really a testament as to how bad ness is that nangoku only took a game off him.

Questions that need to be answered:

1) Order and tier separation of the top 4 characters (pika, kirby, fox, falcon)

2) Mario/Yoshi order (those 2 in their on tier seems like the majority)

3) Are ness and/or link in the same tier as DK/Jiggs?

4) How to order the bottom 3-4 characters (Link, Luigi, Samus, and Ness if he is bumped down to bottom tier)?

 

[M!nt]

I love me some lists

S
Pika

A
Kirby
Fox

B
Falcon
Mario
Yoshi

C
Jigglypuff
DK
Luigi

D
Ness
Samus
Link

 

[Nintendude]

Ness and Jiggs are better than DK imo.

 

[kys]

I'm not going to letter mine, just show the gaps.

Pika

FOX
Kirby

Falcon

Yoshi
Mario

This is where it gets harder imo

DK
Jiggs

(These two are really close, could go either way)

Link
Luigi
Samus
Ness

 

[Yobolight]

I think DK is worse than at least Jiggly.

I think people are underestimating how balanced this game is though, IMO Ness is somewhat viable against characters other than Pika and Kirby.

Ness may be bad, but that doesn't change the fact that this game is more skill than character selection.

Funny connection though, Nintendude and Ballin4life both got beat by Ness's at Apex and decide he is better than DK, Lol. Salty much?

 

[clubbadubba]

You are definitely right that the outcome is mostly skill and rarely character selection. Only when 2 players are extremely evenly matched is skill does it really even matter.

Both the fact that nintendude and ballin got knocked out by ness, and the fact that both said ness is better than DK, are positive points for ness in terms of tier placement. However, until told otherwise by one of them I would say coincidence? Yup.

 

[kys]

DK and Jiggs both get ***** hard by Fox. So much so that I see that matchup being a wash.

I like DK a little more against Falcon.

I like Jiggs a little more against Pika.

I like Jiggs a little more against Kirby. (inb4 battlecow counterpick)

Stagewise, DK is better on Hyrule and Dreamland is a wash.

Head to head, DK wins vs. Jiggly. I guess this and the slight advantage gained on Hyrule puts DK barely above Jiggs in my mind, but as the Great Ken says, "It could go either way."

Yobo, I'm pretty sure everyone who's been here a while knows how balanced this game is. It's a given in any of these debates. The extremes that we go to are said within the context of balance.

 

[thegreginator]

Pikachu

Fox
Kirby

Falcon


Mario
Yoshi

Jiggs
DK

Link
Ness
Luigi
Samus

Two spaces after Falcon on purpose. I feel pretty strongly about everything up until the last four. Think that ordering is a big point of debate.

 

[kys]

^Dude we are soooooo close in our lists. Luv.

 

[thegreginator]

Ha true, just noticed that. I think Link and Ness get unfairly written off because they have no recovery. The thing to consider is that when this game is played at its highest level, "don't get hit" comes into effect, somewhat negating the importance of a good recovery.

Link has great approach options so its harder to hit him in the first place.

"Ness is good if you know how to use him."

 

[ballin4life]

Funny connection though, Nintendude and Ballin4life both got beat by Ness's at Apex and decide he is better than DK, Lol. Salty much?

It was bound to happen. No DK even made it that far.

 

[Nintendude]

Me playing vs. Nangoku has no bearing on what I stated before about Jiggly, Ness, and DK. I've always felt that DK sucks. In fact my SBR tier list vote over a year ago was the following:

Pika
Fox
Kirby
Falcon
Mario
Yoshi
Jiggly
Ness
Link
DK
Luigi
Samus

 

[Olikus]

Wonder where The DK hate come from. He got The best grab in The game. His upb is one of The best moves in The game. Hes one of The best gimpers. ( throw you off stage, grab The ledge and start upb-ing you). His recovery is kind of middleish( not The best, but not The worst). Great spike. Good on all The neutral stages. Only thing that really wreck him is fox on hyrule lol. I feel he got momentun in his game that lest say Ness, (who has The by far worst recovery, bad appeoach and strugles in so many MUps) cant compite with.

 

[Nintendude]

Most of what makes DK good are gimmicks and people are good enough at mashing to not get comboed by his f-throw. He's also combo food. With the Apex ruleset I'd probably put him above Link though.

 

[clubbadubba]

DK Jiggs are really close imo. Ness's matchups with high tiers I think put him noticeably below them. I think DK and Jiggs have matchups from 0 to -1 vs pika and falcon. Ness just gets whooped by the top 4.

 

[The Star King]

What do you mean by gimmicks Nintendude?

I think some people might underrate DK because pretty much NOBODY plays him well online past Boomfan. I've been training my DK a lot for the past few months and he has improved a ton, but still has a lot of room for improvement. But unlike with Yoshi or Ness or whatever, I've had to make up everything myself because there's like no developed ones. There's a lot of even really simple things people don't take advantage of, like down-B -> jump on platform nair -> fair as an easy kill.

Being good at mashing out of his f-throw definitely hurts him though (don't think DK beats Puff with this BTW)

Ness belongs more with Link Luigi Samus (because of Pika and Kirby)

The idea of panels is stupid. That's just another backroom. Let your own judgement decide if what someone is saying has merit or not.

It's nowhere near a Backroom. Because of public discussion (and it's elected).

SOMEONE has to make the final call if we're gonna post an official tier list. Right now we have a 1 man panel of clubba. I don't see how a panel of several high-level players would be worse

Right now it's super unclear how we're doing this. So we're just gonna talk about without knowing what's gonna happen, and discussion will eventually die like it always does and nothing will get done unless we do make it clear. So even if I don't agree with it, I still want to know how we're doing this. Is clubba gonna make all the final calls? How is he going to make those calls? How long are we discussing? With the way it's going now, like it's just another random discussion thread, I don't even wanna participate in this unorganized mess

 

[clubbadubba]

star king, nintendude, join me on this panel please.

 

[Doomolish]

Being obligated to play in a small stage affects a lot some characters who rely on camp. For example, Fox it's worse than Falcon on the current stagelist, so Fox should be 4th and Falcon 3rd, IMO. Same with Link and Samus. She might have "no combos", but she doesn´t need them as long as she could gimp her opponents on small stages.

My idea to make an elitist group to make a votation is to make a thread on Smashmods or another forum that it's not full of trolls, make an account there and vote. It's too much work making an account just for trolling, and making a research about where's the topic makes it even more troll-safe. We could even make a free forum (I have one but I don't recommend it) and make a thread just for admins or something.

 

[clubbadubba]

We don't have too many trolls over here in 64. Plus we know who's opinion to trust, there aren't that many of us.

Okay guys so here's whats gonna happen. I'm asking Star King and Nintendude to officially help me make the final decision on the tier list. They are both high level players that are frequently on smashboards. I don't want to do it alone and this will help eliminate bias form any one person (aka me).

Now, until further notice WE WILL ONLY DISCUSS THE ORDERING OF THE TOP 4 CHARACTERS IN THIS THREAD. I have edited the title to reflect that. That is the only topic as of this moment until that is resolved.

 

[Yobolight]

Can someone clarify as to what rule-set is being assumed?

 

[The Star King]

We don't have too many trolls over here in 64. Plus we know who's opinion to trust, there aren't that many of us.

Okay guys so here's whats gonna happen. I'm asking Star King and Nintendude to officially help me make the final decision on the tier list. They are both high level players that are frequently on smashboards. I don't want to do it alone and this will help eliminate bias form any one person (aka me).

Now, until further notice WE WILL ONLY DISCUSS THE ORDERING OF THE TOP 4 CHARACTERS IN THIS THREAD. I have edited the title to reflect that. That is the only topic as of this moment until that is resolved.

Apex ruleset?

ninja'd lol

 

[sharksquail]

so i know that we are only supposed to be ordering the top 4 right now, but i'm gonna go ahead and just post my tier list cause i think it helps to clarify my order a little bit. this is in order for the record.

SS
Pikachu

S
Fox
Kirby

A
Falcon
Yoshi
Mario

B
DK
Jiggs

C
Luigi
Ness
Link
Samus

 

[clubbadubba]

Yes Apex ruleset.

Pika is for sure #1

It seems that Falcon is #4 for the most part. A few people have him at #3 and fox at #4, but overall Falcon at #4 is the trend, especially since a number of people are putting fox at #2 which offsets people putting him at #4.

Fox is spread between #2, 3, and 4, while kirby is only spread between #2 and #3. For this reason I'm thinking kirby #2, fox # 3 is the most accurate order at the moment.

 

[Yobolight]

IMO:

SS
Pika
S
Kirby
A
Fox
Falcon

I think Apex rule-set moves Fox from Kirby's tier to Falcon's.

 

[Nintendude]

Under the SBR ruleset, I think Fox is #2 but under Apex rules I think he's #3. Being only able to go to Hyrule once makes a big difference imo, as Fox is ridiculously good there. Falcon is without a doubt #4.

 

[SheerMadness]

Pikachu

Kirby

Falcon
Fox

Real close between Falcon and Fox though. Falcon just seems to fair better at competitive events, proven by tourney results.

 

[Nintendude]

Good point. I'd partially attribute that to Falcon being a lot easier to be consistently good with. Falcon and Fox have punishes that are just as potent but Falcon doesn't have to do as much edgeguarding.

 

[SheerMadness]

There's a bunch of factors. The competitive ssb64 community has transitioned to dreamland as our main/favorite stage. Falcon is clearly better on that stage with very simple 0-death combos using the platforms. Falcon gets gimped just as hard as fox on dreamland but he doesn't have to work anywhere near as hard for combos/kills.

Also Falcon's combos are way less susceptible to escape and or user error than Fox's combos.

 

[cmu6eh]

At apex I told Isai that I thought his fox was his best character. He disagreed and said he as a set of best characters: Fox, Kirby, and Pikachu. After watching his friendlies against Kikoshi's kirby, I would say Fox should be higher than kirby even on dreamland.

 

[cmu6eh]

Why don't we make a (J) version tier list?

 

[Nintendude]

I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough to contribute to a (J) tier list.

Fox certainly has better matchups against both Kirby and Mario, as well as, for what it's worth, a slightly better recovery, as he actually has a few ways to mix things up. He also has unparalleled stage control.

 

[AtotheZ]

Why don't we make a (J) version tier list?

I'd be down for that, but the problem is that it would be mostly speculation since not that many people play the (J) version. And we would probably need actual japanese players to do most of the input.

A lot of it would be the same, though.

 

[thegreginator]

Falcon shouldn't be rewarded just because his combos are easy and less susceptible to error. The tier list is supposed to be on the highest level of play, so more difficult Fox combos should still carry the same weight as easy Falcon combos.

I think Falcon is a clear #4.

At the highest levels, Fox has outperformed Kirby. Recent examples that come to mind are Isai's Fox vs. both Tacna and Kikoushi.

 

[SheerMadness]

At the highest levels, Fox has outperformed Kirby. Recent examples that come to mind are Isai's Fox vs. both Tacna and Kikoushi.

Highest level friendlies lol?

The tier list is supposed to be on the highest level of play

That's exactly what I'm basing it off of. And Falcon has VERY clearly out performed Fox in significant tourney results that we know of. Last two Apex's and the past couple of Japanese national tourneys.

I don't agree with you using Isai friendlies as proof that Fox is somehow higher than Falcon or Kirby.

If were basing the tier list off tourney results, Falcon over Fox. If were basing it off theoretical potential then Fox over Falcon.

 

[rjgbadger]

why are some of you putting fox over kirby? i thought it was fact that Pika>kirby>everyone. unless you mean SBR rules where you start on hyrule first match. then maaybe fox>kirby because of stage factors

pika-SS

Kirby-S

fox-A+

falcon A

Mario B+

 

[Battlecow]

I think falcon > fox on DL/congo/peach's but fox is still good

 

[AtotheZ]

If were basing the tier list off tourney results, Falcon over Fox. If were basing it off theoretical potential then Fox over Falcon.

to be fair we should consider both