New Smash Bros for WiiU

[N3ON]

Actually I think after Plusle and Minun, the most likely 3rd Generation Pokémon would be Blazekein, due to his fairly large popularity.

That's cool too, even though I thought Blaziken would be 3rd. I actually wanted Blaziken more than any other 3rd gen for Brawl

Wait then...how's he a clone? XD

Wolf isn't a straight clone like the ones in Melee, but he is a clone as all his special moves and his FS are copied from another character, with tweaks.

A non-clone is a character with an original moveset (with maybe at most one special being similar to another characters). Wolf's entire special moveset was based completely on Fox's moveset.

He is not a full clone because of all the differences in his A moves, and speed/power/etc. differences, but he is still a partial clone of Fox.

And my god, look at all the nonsense above me. I regret helping contribute to it.

 

[Deleted member]

Again, if you call Wolf a clone, you are calling Luigi a clone.

Are you wanting to call Luigi a clone?

 

[augustoflores]

but mario doesn't have the green torpedo...

wolf's specials are essentially derivatives of Fox

 

[Johnknight1]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36929662&postcount=5080

Also, calling Wolf a clone is the same as calling Luigi a clone.

That's a NeoGAF post. That ain't worth 10 cents. From what I read on the Smash 64 Dojo, I don't remember coming across anything that mentioned Wolf as a planned character.

Toon Link.

I mean, yes, Sakurai finds a 2nd Link to be important, but at the same time, a 2nd Link has ALWAYS been low on priority.

@John: Wolf would be an expendable clone, if he WAS a clone. He's more unique to Fox than Falco is. If anything, Falco's the expendable one, even if he has been in more games.
Hell, the only reason that Falco got in instead of Wolf as the Melee clone was because he looked different than Fox.

Nah, Falco is more popularity, more liked, and is much more important to Star Fox. Plus, he has been in 2 smash bros games.

 

[Deleted member]

So a more clonish character is less expendable than a less clonish character simply because he's "more important" by your standards, has more popularity ("liked" is the same deal), and because he's been in more Smash games.

Love to see your priorities. CLONES ARE BETTER THAN SEMICLONES IF THEY'VE BEEN AROUND LONGER AND ARE POPULAR!!!

 

[Deleted member]

but mario doesn't have the green torpedo...

wolf's specials are essentially derivatives of Fox

Not worth a ****.
Specials are not what makes an entire moveset, contrary to what people seem to think.

Luigi has more in common to Mario than Wolf does to Fox.

I suppose Lucas is a clone too. Ignoring the fact that like Wolf, he only has similar Specials to his "counterpart".

 

[Johnknight1]

@ Golden
Of course my opinion on it is biased, just as your opinion is biased. Your point=???

I don't think that's necessary. Balance them individually like everyone else. The scaling will take care of any otherwise overwhelming matchups.

I mean like each of the playable Pokémon Trainer Pokémon is designed to have specific strengths and weaknesses made very clear.

The burden of being behind and being prone to losing a life should be enough of an inherent burden. Lucario losing strength is something that makes as little sense as the clutch mechanic in already.

Yeah, I think Lucario's clutch mechanic was put in to create some momentum change in Brawl. Brawl really has little to no momentum change. I mean, how often do you see someone in a competitive match down by 2 stocks come back and win in Brawl=??? I've seen it maybe twice. In Smash 64 and Melee, I see it all the time.

And I think revealing content should be more like how fighting games have been doing it lately. Show us character trailers like the Special Movie per character, but make it where it appeals to all player groups. I think you'll get more mileage out of this than Brawl's approach.

This was part of Brawl's approach in the 2nd Brawl trailer, and also with the revelation of Sonic. I do think that each newcomer should get their own video. However, by nature 3rd party characters should get longer and more hype-worthy videos.

However, I like the Dojo. I would prefer it to be more centered around items, stages, misc. stuff, various modes (classic mode, adventure mode, all-star mode, stadium modes, event matches, etc), options, online, and added multiplayer content. I loved reading all that stuff, and all the crazy speculation it caused/stirred.

 

[augustoflores]

hey golden... have you ever posted in The New Super Smash Wii-U Discussion Backroom?

 

[Deleted member]

I'm a part of it, yet I haven't posted there yet. Don't really see the need to.

EDIT: Looking at some Japanese names for Specials, they make much more sense then their non-Japanese version counterparts.
"Falcon Knuckle" makes more sense than "Raptor Boost" for example, because it has Falcon in the title.
"Wolf Shoot" makes more sense than "Fire Wolf", since Wolf isn't on fire like Fire Fox or Fire Bird.

 

[Johnknight1]

To archive stuff better, duh!!!

Also, to keep the conversations smarter, and to prepare for the wave of dem n00bs that will eventually overtake this thread/section.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

A smashboards post is worth a million dollars. Ghirahim is going to be revealed at E3 and nothing else. Other than Sakurai saying Ridley is too small to be in SSB4.

And Lucas and Ness isn't a perfect parallel considering they move much the same as well, whereas Mario and Fox move quite different from their counterparts.

 

[N3ON]

Again, if you call Wolf a clone, you are calling Luigi a clone.

Are you wanting to call Luigi a clone?

In Brawl Luigi has two specials based on Mario.
And Wolf has all four specials and his FS based on Fox.

In 64 and Melee I would've had no problem calling Luigi a clone or partial clone, but in Brawl I believe Luigi straddles the border between clone and original.

If I had to choose though, I would say that because of the two completely different specials, and the different FS, Luigi is not a clone anymore. Not because of the difference in his A moveset and other factors. The differences in specials and FS outbalance the similarities in specials and FS, (3-2) which is what a clone is based upon.

I don't see how this is the same as Wolf though, whose entire B moveset and FS are still based on Fox's, and might act differently, but were still molded from Fox's moveset.

For clarification and further criticizing, I believe the clones/partial clones in Brawl were Toon Link, Wolf, Falco, Ganondorf, and Lucas.

I believe Luigi is the closest you can get to an original character without totally being one.

 

[Deleted member]

Specials are not what makes an entire moveset, contrary to what people seem to think.

Luigi has more in common to Mario than Wolf does to Fox.

Reposting this.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

All clones are only partial in Brawl, and Luigi is unique, especially considering fellow smash fans created the term "Luigified clone" when referring to altering clone characters. Luigi is very different, but not as different as a typical original character. Close, but not quite obviously.

 

[augustoflores]

you know, it was possible to level up to the more exclusive Super Smash Bros. 4 ~ Official Character Discussion and Speculation Group... we were in discussions of it a month or so ago, but i declined because you have yet to post in the preliminaries.
(because i declined you, Holder was pulled like he was in the same boat, lol sorry, thems the breaks)

 

[Big-Cat]

I mean like each of the playable Pokémon Trainer Pokémon is designed to have specific strengths and weaknesses made very clear.

But every character already has strengths and weaknesses unless you're saying their playstyle archtypes are easily indentifiable.

This was part of Brawl's approach in the 2nd Brawl trailer, and also with the revelation of Sonic. I do think that each newcomer should get their own video. However, by nature 3rd party characters should get longer and more hype-worthy videos.

I think the second Brawl trailer was fine. You look at it in terms of a sneak peak, then it's hype inducing. Trailers should also be done on a character by character basis like you said. This Parasoul trailer got me interested in Skullgirls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HlSCXidxy04

However, I like the Dojo. I would prefer it to be more centered around items, stages, misc. stuff, various modes (classic mode, adventure mode, all-star mode, stadium modes, event matches, etc), options, online, and added multiplayer content. I loved reading all that stuff, and all the crazy speculation it caused/stirred.

I'd love to see it covering mechanics a lot better. Pictures are fine if that's all you got, but I'd like to see real time demonstrations of the mechanics with significant details. Imagine showing something like special canceling with just pictures to someone not familiar with it. It'll be more confusing than helpful.

 

[Johnknight1]

I ain't arguing that Golden. I'm just arguing why I think Falco gets priority over Wolf.

Also, Falco could easily be further decloned in smash Wii U/3DS. All he really needs (to be decloned further) is a new down smash, down air, down tilt, back air, up B, side B.

Maybe a slightly modified neutral B as well.

 

[augustoflores]

and new final smash...

 

[Deleted member]

Falco for starters, should have his Neutral B changed to use two guns like in the SSE clip.
I was dissapointed to find he only used one in gameplay.

 

[Johnknight1]

Actually, some of the beta data of Falco's original Final Smash, an Arwing, is on the Brawl disc august.

I think Wolf originally was gonna have the Wolfen.

@ Golden
That is what I was referring to with his neutral B. I mean, he fires his laser in Brawl like it's two lasers anyways!

 

[Deleted member]

Well, an Arwing was also found in Fox's data.
But that's because Fox and Falco use Arwings for their entrance while Wolf uses a Wolfen.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

(because i declined you, Holder was pulled like he was in the same boat, lol sorry, thems the breaks)

I gave you guys the best years of my life and this is what I get?


http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/05/18/snake-drake-and-cole-confirmed-for-playstation-all-stars-battle-royale

Snake is in All-Stars, if you guys care about this.

Well, of course it could always be false I guess.

 

[Johnknight1]

^^^ I figured as much. Kojima will do just about any crossover to promote Metal Gear.

But every character already has strengths and weaknesses unless you're saying their playstyle archtypes are easily indentifiable.

Not every character has match up weaknesses (see: Pikachu in Smash 64, Fox and Sheik in Melee, and Meta Knight in Brawl). Also, again, all 3 characters would be built to have multiple match up weaknesses with different archtypes of play styles (as you mentioned).

I think the second Brawl trailer was fine. You look at it in terms of a sneak peak, then it's hype inducing. Trailers should also be done on a character by character basis like you said. This Parasoul trailer got me interested in Skullgirls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HlSCXidxy04

I think the 1st Brawl trailer was the best fighting game trailer ever. No joke. 5 new characters, all of whom I know=???[COLLAPSE="Click here for awesome pre-1st Brawl trailer character hype:"]-Meta Knight, that BAMF with wings, speed and a sword=???
-Pit, an angel with a bow and two awesome swords=???
-Zero Suit Samus, the heroin herself with an awesome whip and gun=???
-Wario, an awesome weirdo with a unique fighting style and... farting=???
-Solid Snake, the legendary hero himself with all of his unique CQC talents, weapons, and a box=???[/COLLAPSE]I had my $50 ready from the get go!

I'd love to see it covering mechanics a lot better. Pictures are fine if that's all you got, but I'd like to see real time demonstrations of the mechanics with significant details. Imagine showing something like special canceling with just pictures to someone not familiar with it. It'll be more confusing than helpful.

I kinda agree. I mean, early on, pictures are okay. The game mechanics still aren't complete. But towards the last 6 months, Nintendo should have hired a video coordinator to make some videos on a 3-5 days a week basis to have videos covering specific stuff (gameplay would be nice, but it shouldn't be something specific to that). Even then, they can still show pictures.

 

[augustoflores]

I gave you guys the best years of my life and this is what I get?


http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/05/18/snake-drake-and-cole-confirmed-for-playstation-all-stars-battle-royale

Snake is in All-Stars, if you guys care about this.

and yeah... i saw that coming from a mile away... snake's a wh00re

 

[N3ON]

If a character was added with the sole intention of having tweaked and copied versions of the majority of another character's special moves, they are a clone.

If they have differences in A moves, Smash attacks, grabs, some technical aspects, etc. then they are a partial clone.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/05/18/snake-drake-and-cole-confirmed-for-playstation-all-stars-battle-royale

Snake is in All-Stars, if you guys care about this.

Huh, interesting, though not especially surprising. I wonder if this will have any effect on Snake in future Smash Bros.

Anyways, I'm out for a bit.
^_^

 

[Big-Cat]

Not every character has match up weaknesses (see: Pikachu in Smash 64, Fox and Sheik in Melee, and Meta Knight in Brawl). Also, again, all 3 characters would be built to have multiple match up weaknesses with different archtypes of play styles (as you mentioned).

That's just poor balancing then. Sakurai mentioned in the past that he does his best to ensure that every character has their strengths and weaknesses. Of course, there have been major balancing problems with each game. That being said, Fox and Sheik do have bad matchups in Melee. I just can't remember who other than Jigglypuff's Space Animal Killer combo.

 

[Johnknight1]

Seriously, Snake has been in all kinds of crossover games:
-Boktai 2.
-Botkai 3.
-DreamMIX TV World Fighters (as a playable character; it is a Japan-only game, which also features Bomberman, Optimus Prime, and Megatron as playable character).
-Evolution Skateboarding (a demo of it was in Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance).
-Ape Escape 3 (a "Snake vs. Ape" mini-game was included in Metal Gear Solid 3).
-Super Smash Bros. Brawl (as a playable character).
-New International Track & Field (as a playable character).
-LittleBigPlanet

And now PlayStation All-Stars!

*waits for Snake to be playable in Soul Calibur 6, Marvel vs. Capcom 4, ULTRA Street Fighter X Tekken, Tekken X Street Fighter, Street Fighter V, Tekken 7, and BlazBlue 3.*

 

[Deleted member]

If a character was added with the sole intention of having tweaked and copied versions of the majority of another character's special moves, they are a clone.

If they have differences in A moves, Smash attacks, grabs, some technical aspects, etc. then they are a partial clone.

Gee, Sakurai, thanks for your undeniable definition at what a clone is!

Instead of taking your word, Ima listen to the peeps at SmashWiki (the good one) on what's a clone and what isn't. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Clone

EDIT: Also, I found this (surprised I haven't earlier...) on a Waluigi hack for Brawl. It has SOME ideas that I made in my moveset (such as the shadow teleports for Sidestepping, the midair swim for Side B, etc.), but a bunch of differences. Namely that he doesn't use a tennis racket except for his side tilt and forward throw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXJwwQU23z4
If Waluigi was like this, would you guys have a problem?

 

[Johnknight1]

That's just poor balancing then. Sakurai mentioned in the past that he does his best to ensure that every character has their strengths and weaknesses. Of course, there have been major balancing problems with each game. That being said, Fox and Sheik do have bad matchups in Melee. I just can't remember who other than Jigglypuff's Space Animal Killer combo.

Bad match ups=??? No.
Situations and moves that counter certain play styles=??? Yes.
For example, a Fox who doesn't space well in the air as the opponent (when the opponent is Jigglypuff) is at an automatic disadvantage.
Or a Fox player who doesn't shine as well as an Ice Climbers player spaces will automatically be at a disadvantage.

Plus, both characters aren't that hard to juggle. But regardless, their offensive strength(s) more than makes up for that.

Well, an Arwing was also found in Fox's data.
But that's because Fox and Falco use Arwings for their entrance while Wolf uses a Wolfen.

No, Falco's Arwing data for a final smash is there. I've seen videos of people hacking it, and I've seen the specific data on the disc that trustworthy people have posted.

 

[augustoflores]

maybe it was metaknight broken...

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Gee, Sakurai, thanks for your undeniable definition at what a clone is!

Instead of taking your word, Ima listen to the peeps at SmashWiki (the good one) on what's a clone and what isn't. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Clone

Sooo the wiki is Sakurai?

I have to agree with him, characters are a clone insofar as they derived and/or identical of another character. This isn't a matter of official labeling, it is a matter of logical identification.


And august, I'm never going to forgive you.

 

[Opelucid]

Snake is in that All Stars game? Pretty cool I guess I knew he would be in there.. anyway I'm starting to think Meloetta will get in this game. She has two forms, she's getting an ending dedicated to her, she's starring in a movie shot, and she's going to be heavily focused on in Best Wishes Season 2 I'd say she has a pretty good chance.

 

[Deleted member]

Sooo the wiki is Sakurai?

I have to agree with him, characters are a clone insofar as they derived and/or identical of another character. This isn't a matter of official labeling, it is a matter of logical identification.


And august, I'm never going to forgive you.

He's lumping characters that are SIMILAR as clones, when they are semiclones.

He does say "parital clones", however, the Wiki gives a better description at what a semiclone is.

 

[Deleted member]

Bad match ups=??? No.
Situations and moves that counter certain play styles=??? Yes.
For example, a Fox who doesn't space well in the air as the opponent (when the opponent is Jigglypuff) is at an automatic disadvantage.
Or a Fox player who doesn't shine as well as an Ice Climbers player spaces will automatically be at a disadvantage.

Plus, both characters aren't that hard to juggle. But regardless, their offensive strength(s) more than makes up for that.

No, Falco's Arwing data for a final smash is there. I've seen videos of people hacking it, and I've seen the specific data on the disc that trustworthy people have posted.

Enough of the "I've seen ____" crap, put your money where your mouth is and show it.

No one believes your "Mega Man has a model for Brawl made by Inafune" story since you didn't supply anything about it. Now, supply the "specific data that trustworthy people have posted" or it's NBC.

EDIT: Stupid double post.
Anyways, I'm actually going to leave for a while, seeing as I'm getting increasingly more irritable.

 

[SmashChu]

Huh, interesting, though not especially surprising. I wonder if this will have any effect on Snake in future Smash Bros.

It might, if only because Sony and Nintendo are still rivals. I'm sure somewhere Sony would try to add Snake only if he was in PlayStation All-Stars (wouldn't make much sense having him if the competitor does too).

 

[Metal Overlord]

Lukin always posts some random *** pic of someone's face, Golden

Don't mind him

 

[---]

I gave you guys the best years of my life and this is what I get?


http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/05/18/snake-drake-and-cole-confirmed-for-playstation-all-stars-battle-royale

Snake is in All-Stars, if you guys care about this.

Well, of course it could always be false I guess.

I voted for you. :3

I really hope that's not true about Snake. One, we had him first (:3). Second, this definitely will drive the rip-off of Smash stuff even more. I feel betrayed.

 

[Johnknight1]

I wouldn't worry about that Triple Dash. Snake's moveset in that Dreamworld TV fighting game was completely different from how he was in Brawl.

Plus something tells me it will either be MGS1 Solid Snake, MGS3 Naked Snake/Big Boss, or MGS4 Old Snake to avoid the smash bros. similarities.

 

[Lukingordex]

Lukin always posts some random *** pic of someone's face, Golden

Don't mind him

Sometimes these pics make sense.

Spoiler

Also,I get 1 post everytime when I do it.

 

[Johnknight1]

I found this interesting video on Brawl sound effects.

Captain Falcon's 1st words (the 1st part of the clip) sound way off, lol!

Also, Meta Knight's speech (about 10 seconds in) was totally awesome!!!

And Ness had some pretty cool cut grunts. Lucas' grunts all sound like he's had a vasectomy!!!

Charizard had some awesome unused noises.