New Smash Bros for WiiU

[PsychoIncarnate]

OMFG

Check out the Genies in Black and White 2.

They look even DUMMER

I hated how they looked already, now they are even worse.

I really hope they don't touch smash with their horrid

 

[Johnknight1]

@ Oasis
I am the enemy of smash bros sucking=???

Yes. Why yes I am!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

So, Mewtwo was top tier because of his amazing wavedash? Same with Luigi, Samus, Yoshi, or just about any other character with goofy traction?

No offense, HyperFalcon, but you really don't know anything about how Melee's metagame progressed with those techniques, do you? If anything, wavedashing made those bad characters better, not top tier. Or at the very least, it gave them another set of tools necessary to compete. And while Bowser's wavestep (that's what it's called, dammit) was next to useless, it was his amazing waveland that was utilized to enhance his mobility.

Just throwing that out there.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Johnknight1]

Actually, after seeing how crazy the game is, I don't see how Wavedashing isn't normal. Especially when we have stuff like the Falco Phantasm, etc.

No, I mean the gravity effects of wavedashing aren't normal. You create imaginary momentum by doing a jump so tiny you can't even see it. With wavelanding, you are actually landing from a higher distance and carrying that directly into your landing by sliding. Or as we call it, wavelanding.

L-Cancelling was also depth. But that got sacrificed.

Oh God, I have to press a button on a pre-set time for each move that takes me 15 minutes to get down to muscle memory. So hard!

Also, there's a difference between depth and depth that alienates players. Wavedashing went too far. L-Cancelling did it.

If you are alienated because it can be played at a high level of play, you are stupid. That's like not wanting to play soccer because you can't do bicycle kicks like Wayne Rooney.

I mean, while Infinites aren't universal, unlike wavedashing, those who do the infinites aren't able to do that to everybody.

This it makes say the Ice Climbers in Melee and Diddy Kong in Brawl better. In other words, the rich got richer. However, infinite grabs did keep King Dedede up there for a while.

Wavedashing however, further unbalances the game and makes bad characters worse and good characters way too good. L-Cancelling did zip in that department. It stayed balanced.

Wavedashing length has minimal impact in competitive play. If you know how far you can slide with wavedashing with every character, it isn't that big of deal.

Plus, wavedashing doesn't make a character great. :fpxmelee: and have okay wavedashes, sure, but nothing special. has no wavedash, and is a beast. , , , , and all have great wavedeashes, but none of them are ranked very high. , and have great wavedashes, but both of them are garbage.

Plus, wavedashing gives bad characters better defensive options. Often bad characters like a Young Link, Mewtwo, or Roy lacks options, and wavedashing gives them that added option. The best characters (defensively) like , , :ganonmelee:, and don't really need that added option. They already have all kinds of options with other moves/techniques.

Exactly why we don't need it back. We don't need L-Cancelling back, but atleast it was a great skill in general that was easy to learn and added depth to the game.

But why are you targeting wavedashing in specific as "alienating" players=??? Literally, wavedashing and L-cancelling inspired me to play smash competitively. It made me think "dang, the roof here for this game is practically unlimited," which is the same way I viewed soccer and basketball.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Thank you for expanding on my point, John. Lol.

You are one hundred percent correct.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Johnknight1]

Honestly, wavedashing is the most overrated issue/technique ever. I mean, seriously, dash dancing can do most of the things wavedashing can do, and it allows for faster momentum change. All wavedashing does is all for fast momentum changes for fast ground attack followups, good tech chases, and to allow you to quickly setup for offensive moves or dodging quicker than dash dancing by wavedashing away from attacks/past the opponent's hitboxes (by going past them).

Now if we're talking wavelanding, dash dancing, chain grabbing, edge play/off the stage gameplay, etc, I can write essays on how much they impact the game.

 

[Oasis_S]

@ Oasis
I am the enemy of smash bros sucking=???

Mmm... Isn't this how major conflicts begin. The differing interpretations of what is "good." If you want to define it, then you better be Strong.

 

[Cobalsh]

We no need nothing. We play game for fun, not argue. Oasis be quiet now.
This is my Tekken mains(yes,I played all of them)
Tekken: Yoshimitsu
T2: Prototype Jack
T3: Gun Jack
T4: Paul
TTT: King+Yoshimitsu
T5: Mokujinn
T6: Bob

When TTT2 comes out, believe you me...

Edit: What I mean is, Oasis, Shut up.

 

[Baskerville]

The only memory I have of Tekken was seeing my brother playing Tekken 3. Other than that I haven't played any of the games, so maybe TTT2 will get me into the series.

<3 Metal Slug, I want this stage in Smash! =P

 

[Metal Overlord]

I once saw Smooth Criminal punch a man in the testicles to win a fight. Over the cries of agony I heard the what-could-hardly-be-called-a-man say "Dude, it's like, part of the game. If I wasn't meant to do it then why would you even have balls."

That is the way of those like him.

lol

Also, I don't know if anyone has posted this, but the new CoroCoro has a load of new stuff on Black and White 2. I'll quote the stuff here; if you want pics check serebii.

Blue? Lance? Misty? Mecha Tyranitar? Hell yeah

Aren't these the perfect characters to advertise your game in America?

WTF are those? PBS characters? LOL

 

[Hypercat-Z]

IF we were to ever get a second Sonic character (which is extremely unlikely), it would most likely be Tails

I dunno! Yeah! He's undubtly the most ancient comprimary of Sonic. But knowing Nintendo they might opt for Cream and/or Blaze, since they debuted on Nintendo's consoles.

 

[Cobalsh]

Or Knuckles or Amy or Shadow... This list can go on forever.

@Metal
Those are "Spirits" from the new Kingdom Hearts game 3D or Dream Drop Dimentions, or something like that.:shrug:

 

[Linkshot]

Ah... No... Their complaints extend much further. The more recent games, I THINK, have done a good job giving monsters personality and making them all distinct fighters from one another. But the fans would rather they all walk around and stiffly slap at each other, with the occasional beam battle.

Accuracy!


It's just weird to think about. How often do we care about accuracy around HERE, lol?

Now imagine there are people out there that feel that way about Smash, in potentially larger numbers.

 

[Conviction]

Lolololol edgeguarding and edgehogging are entirely different things and edgehogging actually is.

Lolololololol.

They flow into each other. Stop whining, neither are cheap. Learn to play around them and use them yourself.

 

[Wizzrobe]

I dunno! Yeah! He's undubtly the most ancient comprimary of Sonic. But knowing Nintendo they might opt for Cream and/or Blaze, since they debuted on Nintendo's consoles.

Lol, Cream and BLaze are no where near as important as other SOnic characters like Tails or Knuckles. Tails is most likely but I would prefer anyone else. I just wouldn't find Tails to be that interesting of a character since the only iconic thing about him is his flying and his tails I guess.

 

[Linkshot]

They flow into each other. Stop whining, neither are cheap. Learn to play around them and use them yourself.

But if enough people shout "cheap", Sakurai will dumb that part of the game down! No hope for the people that want it more technical, though, so may as well let him get his "well-thought suggestions", eh?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Well, I don't think Sakurai is going to get rid of an intrinsic part of gameplay to pander to somebody's notion of "honorable combat."

Smooth Criminal

 

[Hypercat-Z]

That doesn't mean he won't be looking back at the old games either to decide what he's going to do. IMO, I think starting with Brawl and making these changes in Brawl would be a great base for the development team before they start getting to business:
[COLLAPSE="Changes"]1. Increase running speed.
2. Remove random tripping.
3. Make it impossible to air dodge out of hitstun before a certain point (see BlazBlue).
4. Implement auto L-Canceling.
5. Make ledge grabbing possible only if you're facing it.
6. Remove automatic sweet spots for tether recoveries.
7. Reduce the ledge grabbing range.
8. Make throws only grab opponents on the ground.[/COLLAPSE]

@victini
Physics has to do more with things like knockback and the gravity. Mechanics like the various cancelings are a different subject.

Or something more radical like...

1. You can modify the speed/power proportions through a graphic kinda like you modify the accelaration/max-speed proportions in F-Zero X.

2. Each character has more than one special attack to select for each of the four B commands (B, B+up, B+down, B+forward).

3. Both of the above.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Blue? Lance? Misty? Mecha Tyranitar? Hell yeah

It's not as shocking as Giovanni returning. I could have swore that he commited suicide after I defeated him in Pokemon Heart Gold.

 

[Lukingordex]

Lol, Cream and BLaze are no where near as important as other SOnic characters like Tails or Knuckles. Tails is most likely but I would prefer anyone else. I just wouldn't find Tails to be that interesting of a character since the only iconic thing about him is his flying and his tails I guess.

I will be surprised if they keep Sonic in SSB4.

 

[~automatic]

Also, who cares about the skill gap=??? There should be a skill gap. Even Mario Party has a skill gap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6PxRwgjzZw

 

[Holder of the Heel]

The only reason I dislike wasvedashing is because it makes the the game look so unnatural. It doesn't feel like I'm watching Nintendo characters (and some friends) jumping into a stage bringing their abilities and fighting because every single one of them are prancing around in wavedashes doing **** that those characters don't even do.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It ruins your IMMERSHUN.

xD

<3 Holder. I understand where you're coming from.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Opossum]

I, too, am surprised at Giovanni's return. Maybe when everyone thought he committed suicide by leaping into the rapids, iirc, he only leaped into the water, ruining his communicator, and drifted all the way to Unova?


But anyway, I'm hoping Black and White 2 turn out good.

Maybe the genie trio can be Poke Balls? I personally like their new designs. Haters gonna hate.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No, I mean the gravity effects of wavedashing aren't normal. You create imaginary momentum by doing a jump so tiny you can't even see it. With wavelanding, you are actually landing from a higher distance and carrying that directly into your landing by sliding. Or as we call it, wavelanding.

Right. I'm pretty sure it was taken out because it clearly alienated players. I mean, look at how ridiculously split the Melee fanbase is. For Brawl, it's REALLY easy to start playing competitively.

Oh God, I have to press a button on a pre-set time for each move that takes me 15 minutes to get down to muscle memory. So hard!

And muscle memory is not exactly "good" either. In fact, it's pretty bad. It makes it harder to adapt to new techniques and characters. Remember, outside of MK, everybody had a secondary and need to do it for each individual character. Also, only human opponents work for testing because there are no preset combos.

If you are alienated because it can be played at a high level of play, you are stupid. That's like not wanting to play soccer because you can't do bicycle kicks like Wayne Rooney.

That'd be great... if the game wasn't designed to be easy for everyone to get better at. Why is that wrong? Of course there's still a difference between high level and low level play. But it's good to make it easier to adapt. Melee was terrible about that. Brawl, however, did a pretty good job of it.

This it makes say the Ice Climbers in Melee and Diddy Kong in Brawl better. In other words, the rich got richer. However, infinite grabs did keep King Dedede up there for a while.

The point is that they're better due to their own merits, and, only are good against certain characters. Not everyone. That's actually good design.

Wavedashing length has minimal impact in competitive play. If you know how far you can slide with wavedashing with every character, it isn't that big of deal.

It's not really the length so much that if you can't do it, you really can't win anymore. That's what I call alienating. L-Cancelling? Not an issue. Yes, you'll lose a bit more, but not only is it crap-easy to do ANYWAY, it really has no effect other than improving your game decently.

Plus, wavedashing doesn't make a character great. :fpxmelee: and have okay wavedashes, sure, but nothing special. has no wavedash, and is a beast. , , , , and all have great wavedeashes, but none of them are ranked very high. , and have great wavedashes, but both of them are garbage.

So it makes the best character great? Yes, all of those aren't an issue. But it doesn't change that some characters are just plain better with it. I wouldn't call it "even", especially when the really slow characters don't get it, and, get this, are severely worse due to not having a fair option that every character should be able to utilize. Mind you, wavedashing is a tool, and not a "debatably" broken attack.

Plus, wavedashing gives bad characters better defensive options. Often bad characters like a Young Link, Mewtwo, or Roy lacks options, and wavedashing gives them that added option. The best characters (defensively) like , , :ganonmelee:, and don't really need that added option. They already have all kinds of options with other moves/techniques.

...Young Link is bad? Roy is bad? Mewtwo, yes, sure... what, are you comparing this solely to the Tier List? I presume you are... but Young Link is not "bad". He's still above Link, who is mid tier. Bad would actually be in the bottom tier.

Also, all this says to me is Wavedashing shouldn't return anyway. Unless it only can be used by "bad" characters.

But why are you targeting wavedashing in specific as "alienating" players=??? Literally, wavedashing and L-cancelling inspired me to play smash competitively. It made me think "dang, the roof here for this game is practically unlimited," which is the same way I viewed soccer and basketball.

L-Cancelling never alienated players.

For a while, it was either Wavedash, or you couldn't win. That's pretty alienating. And to be frank, it was not an universal tool like L-Cancelling was, and it just made characters more ridiculous. Also, Sheik was a beast for a long time, and she had it too.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Thank you Smooth Criminal, I literally never hear anyone say that. I mean, that is the very reason why people are pissed about Ganondorf, yet almost no one applies the same logic to wavedashing because people think it is cool and adds to the game. Yeah, it does, but we need to add **** that actually makes sense. Sakurai needs to add depth to our game but with the Nintendo characters' means.

When I watch pro Melee matches I am utterly impressed with the skill level, but it no longer feels like my childhood heroes are fighting, its just a bunch of pixels brought together that makes it look like them. This may be nitpicky, but that is the biggest appeal to me. It was what drove me insane when I was a kid seeing the SSB 64 commercial with dudes dressed up in big suits of Yoshi and everyone beating each other up. That is what made me pick up a copy of each game, right there.

The only one I want to be prancing around is Ghirahim.

 

[Conviction]

Wavedashing doesn't make a player nor character great. So many people lose because they overuse washdashing, when they actually don't know when and where to apply it.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

If wavedashing is being used as the reason why there was a rift between competitive and casual players, I think that is wrong honestly. For the above reason (and the fact my melee disc no longer works), I never really used wavedashing, and I remember playing a FFA at a convention with two other people (I was :D) and they both wavedashed and I won. I mean, yeah it was a FFA, but that is a game I never play and was at a "disadvantage". Perhaps I shouldn't judge it from that one game, I don't know.

 

[Conviction]

My memory is failing me but there have been pros in melee who were minimalist on such techs and were very successful.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Actually, it's only been notable in 1 on 1 fights. In FFA, they get hit by other characters, so of course it's easier to fight against.

Possibly 2 on 2 fights.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Ah, well, my apologies then.

And interesting little bit of knowledge Iblis. Sorry, my experience of Melee is mostly casual, I never went out and played against good people to really improve. Probably because I was young, I regret not trying though.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Sakurai needs to add depth to our game but with the Nintendo characters' means.

No offense, but wtf do you mean by this, my man

Like seriously, I've been trying to figure this part out for about 5 minutes

 

[Berserker.]

My memory is failing me but there have been pros in melee who were minimalist on such techs and were very successful.

Aniki?

He does NOT use wavedashing but he still beat some of the best players in the world with Link and Samus

 

[Opossum]

No offense, but wtf do you mean by this, my man

Like seriously, I've been trying to figure this part out for about 5 minutes

I think he means that things of a competitive nature are welcome if the character doing the technique does it in character? I could be completely wrong.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

No offense, but wtf do you mean by this, my man

Like seriously, I've been trying to figure this part out for about 5 minutes

By having the characters do something that they actually do/can do. XD

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You know, not using universal techniques for competitive depth only. Have characters use them instead.

Infinites actually are a perfect example of this. Only certain characters can use 'em. XD

 

[Conviction]

No offense, but wtf do you mean by this, my man

Like seriously, I've been trying to figure this part out for about 5 minutes

I'm guessing more along the line that the ATs are character specific, a whole new animation as well that only said character can preform. I guess like shine canceling

Aniki?

He does NOT use wavedashing but he still beat some of the best players in the world with Link and Samus

Yes! That's one person.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Well don't I feel dumb now haha

The only thing I feel like I can really contribute gameplay-wise to this conversation is changing up veterans. I'm sorry, but your Overlord doesn't know much about gameplay mechanics

 

[Johnknight1]

The only reason I dislike wasvedashing is because it makes the the game look so unnatural. It doesn't feel like I'm watching Nintendo characters (and some friends) jumping into a stage bringing their abilities and fighting because every single one of them are prancing around in wavedashes doing **** that those characters don't even do.

See, I don't mind it when people say this. Because you know what=??? It does look unnatural. And it is really weird to watch, because it is physically impossible.
However, I gotta say that wavelanding (or at least the concept of wavelanding) at least makes sense. I mean, if you were to long jump in say Super Mario 64, naturally Mario slides due to gravity. That's why IMO wavelanding should be in smash, at least more than it is in Brawl. Seriously, the extremely fall waveland in Brawl was garbage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6PxRwgjzZw

Well, most Mario Party mini-games require skill, whether by pushing buttons faster than anyone else, navigating a course, etc. Plus, to be fair, that is some awful AI.

 

[Baskerville]

Now that you mention wavelanding, John, I'd be interested to see Mario's other jumps incorporated into Smash.