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New Smash Bros for WiiU

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Big-Cat

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I'm split on the L cancel topic. On one hand it does increase the combo potential and technical depth of the game but creates a bit of an artificial skill factor.
What's there to be split on? Technical depth only means anything if it increases your options. Pressing a button every time you land is choosing the infinitely superior option over the other.

We might as well be saying the EWGF in SFxTK is balanced because it's hard to do.
 

Oasis_S

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Lolololol edgeguarding and edgehogging are entirely different things and edgehogging actually is.

Lolololololol.
Don't Stoop to his level. You're Stronger than that.

It is common knowledge that there is no honor in competitive gaming. Playing to win means abusing whatever tactics are available.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Lolololol edgeguarding and edgehogging are entirely different things and edgehogging actually is.

Lolololololol.
D'awww.

I'm sorry that not everybody shares your notion of fair play.

Hopefully Sakurai caters to you and your friends in the next Smash and lets EVERYONE grab the edge at the same time! That would be ideal for a game based around knocking your opponent off of the edge and keeping them off.

While we're at it, let's discuss edgeguarding. Oh sure, it takes some skill, but c'mon! It'd just as cheap as edgehogging! It keeps me from getting back to the stage to continue my honorable duel with my opponent...

Smooth Criminal
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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@wezai: I agree with this. That's a pretty neat idea. IMO, it should restore some of your shield, not all of it. That would be unbalanced to restore it all. You see... L-Cancel removes some of the lag, but not all of it.

Also, people don't know what an edgehog is? It's when you GRAB the edge so your opponent can't. Edge guarding means you go out of your way to stop them from coming back when they're far from the stage.
 

GiantBreadbug

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Yeah, I'm pretty elated that I don't share the attitudes of d*cks.

Fact still stands that you didn't even mock me correctly.

^@Falcon Edgeguarding is fun and awesome fo sho', and is in fact not what I was talking about.
 

wezai

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@wezai: I agree with this. That's a pretty neat idea. IMO, it should restore some of your shield, not all of it. That would be unbalanced to restore it all. You see... L-Cancel removes some of the lag, but not all of it.
Yes. Agreed entirely. :)

Edit: Oh, I edited my post. I meant to write "restore a little bit of the shield" instead of "reset a little bit". Thanks for pointing that out. So is it doable and stands as a good option in the heat of the fight? Would that make it a legit choice to not L-Cancel?

Because IMO, it would take some skill to know you are under shield pressure and you know your shield is very small and you want to put it back into a safer state. So knowing when to not L-Cancel without being punished hard will take a whole new level of skill, perhaps?
 

Oasis_S

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I once saw Smooth Criminal punch a man in the testicles to win a fight. Over the cries of agony I heard the what-could-hardly-be-called-a-man say "Dude, it's like, part of the game. If I wasn't meant to do it then why would you even have balls."

That is the way of those like him.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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@Wezai: Ah, okay. Agreed.

@GiantBreadBug: Actually, I was clarifying for those who didn't know what it was. Was not against you at all. :) I was helping you, heh.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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I once saw Smooth Criminal punch a man in the testicles to win a fight. Over the cries of agony I heard the what-could-hardly-be-called-a-man say "Dude, it's like, part of the game. If I wasn't meant to do it then why would you even have balls."

That is the way of those like him.
I once saw smooth criminal stop in the middle of a performance and randomly have an orgy without sex
 
D

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Two words:

Cowboy. Hat.

That will be the entire source of his moveset. And his stubble.
I used to think Flint only had that 2x4, but actually doing research (as I've never played Mother 3), I learned a few things;
1. He also has a weapon called the Drago's Fang, from the creature that killed his wife and Lucas' and Claus' mother.
2. He can temporarily boost his strength and defense
3. He can use herbs provided by his father-in-law to heal himself.

He has quite the potential.
 

Big-Cat

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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I hope the Herbs have a large downtime or don't heal much.

That's why Game & Watch's version is not a problem. It's randomized.
 

GiantBreadbug

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Oh absolutely, Flint really is the man. I mean, Masked Man/Claus is my favorite guy, but Flint is easily up there. He's really cool.

Plus, Lucas and Flint fighting together? Awesome. First father/son team in Smash.
 

Smooth Criminal

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*shrugs.* What can I say? It was LIVE OR LET DIE! FIGHT!

And I think it's kinda ****ish to think it's ****ish to edgehog. I mean, why bemoan others for an option that's part of the game and intended to be used? It even has its own little section on the Dojo, for crying out loud!

...or you can have an opinion.

It ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR SKILL! MAKE IT STRAIGHT!

(Kuma will get the references.)

Smooth Criminal

On that note, I'm going to head out. Can't argue worth a damn right now, and honestly, it's tough to argue with an opinion sometimes.
 

wezai

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*shrugs.* What can I say? It was LIVE OR LET DIE! FIGHT!

And I think it's kinda ****ish to think it's ****ish to edgehog. I mean, why bemoan others for an option that's part of the game and intended to be used? It even has its own little section on the Dojo, for crying out loud!

...or you can have an opinion.

It ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR SKILL! MAKE IT STRAIGHT!

(Kuma will get the references.)

Smooth Criminal

On that note, I'm going to head out. Can't argue worth a damn right now, and honestly, it's tough to argue with an opinion sometimes.
True.

The option is there, if you are fighting then edgehogging should be taken into account. If you are giving your best, fighting, edgeguarding and edgehogging it means you are fighting seriously. That is a sign of respect.

You wouldn't want to edgehog when you don't know how to do that; are looking down on your opponent or you are simply not playing serious.

Of course, that's my opinion. ;p
 

Oasis_S

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Didn't Sakurai subtract points in the Adventure mode for "ledgehogging?" Lolol.

Ah, no. He gave you loads of them. And he called it Edge Hogging.

*kicks dust* Shucks.
 

GiantBreadbug

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I'm just saying that it's a cop-out. It's just a disrespectful way to KO if you ask me. I mean, edgeguarding involves using moves and strategy, but edgehogging is just lame.

I don't edgehog, and I won't play with people that do. Not anything personal, I just don't see the "honor" (for lack of a better word) in it. So if you like it, by all means go ahead and do it.

Also, I don't know if anyone has posted this, but the new CoroCoro has a load of new stuff on Black and White 2. I'll quote the stuff here; if you want pics check serebii.

The first images from inside CoroCoro have started to come. These images showcase further screenshots of Pokémon Black 2 & White 2 and provide a lot of information. First, it confirms Alder will appear early on within the game and asks the player to follow him

Cheren is a Normal-type Gym Leader while Bianca gives you your starter Pokémon as a favour for Juniper

Nobody seems to know where N has gone

New Professor is Professor Burnett who is in AR Searcher

Tornadus, Thundurus and Landorus original forms are Incarnation Forme. Their new forms are Sacred Beast Forme. They are 198, 199 and 200 in the Unova Dex and have no type changes
Tornadus' Sacred Beast Forme focuses on Defense, Speed & Special Defense. It is 1.4m and weighs 63.0kg

Thundurus' Sacred Beast Forme has increased Special Attack. It is 3.0m and weighs 61.0kg

Landorus' Sacred Beast Forme has increased Attack. It is 1.3m and weighs 68.0kg

Mecha Tyranitar is part of PokéWood. Icirrus City Gym Leader Brycen appears, has a confrontation with Homika's father who wants to be a movie star, and is part of PokéWood. PokéWood allows you to select a scenario and then make the movie. Various battles appear

Pokémon World Tournament allows you to battle many of the old Gym Leaders and Champions including those listed yesterday [Lance, Volkner, Blue, Misty, and Steven] and Janine & Blaine.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Well, yeah. I honestly don't see how using every option possible is "bad". Albeit, as long as it's possible to beat.(unlike IDC) Rest? Doesn't need limiting. Although I agree with limiting a bit of stalling.

Oh, don't worry, I don't see a person not willing to use a cheap tactic as "wrong" either.

Both are perfectly okay ways to play the game.

I only have an issue with stalling.
 

Oasis_S

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For competitive players to need the back room to tell them what is and isn't allowed in a fight, they should just listen to the number one rule in the heart of men:

"IF I DO THIS IN A FIGHT, WILL IT HURT MY PRIDE AS A MAN?!"
 

wezai

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I'm just saying that it's a cop-out. It's just a disrespectful way to KO if you ask me. I mean, edgeguarding involves using moves and strategy, but edgehogging is just lame.

I don't edgehog, and I won't play with people that do. Not anything personal, I just don't see the "honor" (for lack of a better word) in it. So if you like it, by all means go ahead and do it.
I personally feel the opposite, if my enemy doesn't edgehog I will think he is disrespecting me by not playing serious. It's like watching a soccer match, scoring over and over again is showing signs to your opponent that you are serious and playing to win no matter what. Now if you know your team is better, and instead of scoring goals the players are actually doing too much unnecessary moves and not giving their 100% is considered by many people an act of disrespect.

Analogies aside, this whole deal about edgehogging is really subjective. Some like, some dislike. But in the end of the day nothing changes and the majority of the players will play the game the way it was designed to work.

But it's interesting to know that there are players in the Smash Community who don't allow their friends to edgehog. It's unique.
 

GiantBreadbug

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I don't "not allow it," it's just dishonorable. If I play with a person, and they edgehog, I'll quit playing with them. And edgehogging wasn't "designed," it's just something that occurs. Two people can't grab the edge at the same time, it's a thing that happens.

I do the same thing with Ray Guns. I know I can juggle an opponent off the screen with it most of the time, but I don't. The ability to juggle foes offstage with the Ray Gun exists, but that's not the reason Ray Guns exist, just like edgegrabbing doesn't exist to facilitate edgehogging.

Either way, people who do it are the ones who want to win by any means necessary. That isn't always a good thing. I mean, it's a videogame, so honestly it doesn't f*cking matter at all, but I prefer to fight according to a weirdo luchador code of honor that values fairness, so whatever.

I can "go 100%" against someone without using something as underhanded as edgehogging.

And with that, I take my leave.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Well, there's nothing in the design of the game that suggests that you shouldn't edgehog, though.

Also, "If recovering is a technique, then there must also be techniques to guard against recovery. Fierce aerial battles often rule the match!"

It does suggest to use air techniques(edge guarding, obviously), but it says often. So he could mean anything.

I'm not sure where the "I don't like edge hogging". In fact, I'm sure that by making tether recoveries sweet spot the edge, he KNEW that it existed, thus, he knew it would be a legitimate way to fight them.
 

Smooth Criminal

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It was designed into the game, bro. There's no two ways about it. If edgehogging wasn't intentional, it wouldn't be there.

Play the game how you want, but don't go flinging mud at the people that don't share your notion of fair play.

Smooth Criminal
 

wezai

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I don't "not allow it," it's just dishonorable. If I play with a person, and they edgehog, I'll quit playing with them. And edgehogging wasn't "designed," it's just something that occurs. Two people can't grab the edge at the same time, it's a thing that happens.

I do the same thing with Ray Guns. I know I can juggle an opponent off the screen with it most of the time, but I don't. The ability to juggle foes offstage with the Ray Gun exists, but that's not the reason Ray Guns exist, just like edgegrabbing doesn't exist to facilitate edgehogging.

Either way, people who do it are the ones who want to win by any means necessary. That isn't always a good thing. I mean, it's a videogame, so honestly it doesn't f*cking matter at all, but I prefer to fight according to a weirdo luchador code of honor that values fairness, so whatever.

I can "go 100%" against someone without using something as underhanded as edgehogging.

And with that, I take my leave.
What? Just because one edgehogs it doesn't mean that player wants to win at all costs. It's pretty fun to edgehog if you are smashing with a lot of friends together. When you deliver that combo, your friend is about to recover and then in the last millisecond possible you manage to grab the edge, everyone screams "ahhh WOW whoaaaaaa" some even go "NICEEEEEEE". But that's because we grew used to that kind of mechanics and it doesn't interfere in any way with our style. We just don't see it as a dishonored move, that's all.

And if you think Ray Guns weren't designed to juggle foes out of the stage you must be high, it happens since SSB64 and it never changed. Are you saying the game developers are not aware of this and designed the Ray Gun excluding this factor?

And edgehogging wasn't "designed," it's just something that occurs. Two people can't grab the edge at the same time, it's a thing that happens.
It's something that happens because Nintendo want it to happen. They could have fixed a long time ago (and it's pretty easy to), but they chose not to. Because they think that edgehog is a legit move. You were knocked-back off-stage to a point that it's hard to come back meaning your % was high enough, you either used your DJ already or is too far, edgehogging becomes a way of saying "hey, it's time to die". I know, it's not a clean uppercut that will send your opponent straight to the ceilings and kill them but it's a move that will work just as fine.

If you have problems seeing that as a not honorable move it's then a matter of opinion. I could say that edgeguarding with bombs and items are as "wrong" and "dishonorable" as edgehogging if I use that mindset.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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Aren't these the perfect characters to advertise your game in America?
 

Johnknight1

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Lolololol edgeguarding and edgehogging are entirely different things and edgehogging actually is (cheap).
It is either you can edge hog and edges or in smash, or edges disappear, and smash should be like traditional fighting games. Pick your poison. If you don't want to play with edge hogging, let it be known beforehand, and play with players who don't do it. But don't say it should be entirely removed because you feel it is "cheap.", Basing an argument around calling something "cheap" is objective ******* your argument here. If you can't recover to the stage and someone properly edge hogs, it's your fault, not theirs, that you got hit in the first stage, and you weren't good enough to recover. As Isai always says: Don't. Get. Hit. The offstage game is like transitioning in basketball: Without it, 1/2 the game is gone.
I'm split on the L cancel topic. On one hand it does increase the combo potential and technical depth of the game but creates a bit of an artificial skill factor.
It would allow players to focus more on real combat if L-cancelling was automatic. If it was automatic, it's not like any "skill" is lost. Plus, unlike wavedashing, it doesn't contribute to things like spacing that you wouldn't be able to do easier (with proper programming) or isn't something that couldn't be put in the game that couldn't be done automatically.
 

Baskerville

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L-cancelling was never useful to me anyway. So I really didn't care for it not being in Brawl. Wavedashing on the other hand...
 

Johnknight1

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The effects of L-cancelling can impact the game, but it's not like it can't be automatically programmed in with each attack. If Sakurai is willing to recognize that he made L-cancelling-Z-cancelling (as it was originally called in Smash 64) on purpose, then he might as well make the frame rate loss per attack from air to ground always be about the amounts it was in Smash 64/Melee/in the Brawl E For All Demo.

Sadly, I can't find the Smash 64 Dojo that was archived. Urgh. On it, Z-cancelling was listed as an official technique.

Edit: Arc would love this.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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It depends if it's easier to program it with "each attack" or to program it as a manual thing.

Also, Wavedashing was way too high of a skill gap that alienated players and widely unbalanced the game. Most Slower characters couldn't abuse it. Which made everything worse.

L-Cancelling was a significant thing in the 64 Meta, but it was so easy that it didn't do any alienation of players.

Really, if we're going to have skillful things, they should still be somewhat easy to do, and, thus, helping people gradually work their way into fighting stronger opponents meta-wise.

We want to close the skill gap, not widen it. L-Cancelling did a great job of this. Wavedashing did a horrible job of it instead.
 

Johnknight1

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Wavedashing isn't needed to play the game to have fun. And to be quite frank, it doesn't take anything away from casual players unless a player who knows wavedashing uses it. Although to be honest, wavedashing doesn't fit the smash "physics." However, I think wavelanding and things like "V-Dodging" definitely do fit with Smashes' physics (even Brawl).

Also, who cares about the skill gap=??? There should be a skill gap. Even Mario Party has a skill gap. If we remove that in smash, it is no deeper than that Shrek fighting game.

Now, if you want to decrease the difficulty to become better, that's another thing. But don't sacrifice depth to make the game more appealing to players who aren't that good. Instead, give them good guides to get better, let them know about all the techniques, and teach them not just how to use them, but how to use them in battle. Make it to where it is easy to learn them, a bit harder to apply it properly, and difficult to masterfully use. Literally making such things presentable, however, is half the battle.

Also, even if wavedashing is removed, there have literally been hundreds of techniques in smash bros thus far. What are you gonna do next=??? Remove all of them=???
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Wavedashing isn't needed to play the game to have fun. And to be quite frank, it doesn't take anything away from casual players unless a player who knows wavedashing uses it. Although to be honest, wavedashing doesn't fit the smash "physics." However, I think wavelanding and things like "V-Dodging" definitely do.
Actually, after seeing how crazy the game is, I don't see how Wavedashing isn't normal. Especially when we have stuff like the Falco Phantasm, etc.

Also, who cares about the skill gap=??? There should be a skill gap. Even Mario Party has a skill gap. If we remove that in smash, it's no better than that Shrek fighting game.
The guy who created the game, that's who. I like the way the game is very easy to learn and is very easy to get better where you don't have to even concentrate on memorizing he controls. The skill gap was more about actual practice beyond "button order memory" like dial-in combos are. You had to take more into account than that, which is a good thing. Basically, getting better is far more dynamic. But it also is easier too.

Now, if you want to decrease the difficulty to become better, that's another thing. But don't sacrifice depth to make the game more appealing to players who aren't that good. Instead, give them good guides to get better, let them know about all the techniques, and teach them not just how to use them, but how to use them in battle.
L-Cancelling was also depth. But that got sacrificed. Also, there's a difference between depth and depth that alienates players. Wavedashing went too far. L-Cancelling did it. Brawl was actually perfect in this regard. Players got better gradually and it was a lot easier to win, but it still had tons of depth. I don't think an OP ability is "adding depth", especially when it's not universal. I mean, while Infinites aren't universal, unlike wavedashing, those who do the infinites aren't able to do that to everybody. Wavedashing however, further unbalances the game and makes bad characters worse and good characters way too good. L-Cancelling did zip in that department. It stayed balanced.

Also, even if wavedashing is removed, there are literally hundreds of techniques in smash bros.
Exactly why we don't need it back. We don't need L-Cancelling back, but atleast it was a great skill in general that was easy to learn and added depth to the game.
 
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