New Smash Bros for WiiU

[yani]

Ghirahim vs Tingle is a tough one. On one hand, you have the first villain of LoZ, which is a pretty big deal. With a moveset practically drawn out for him, he seems like he was created to be in Smash. On the other, you have a recurring character who got his own spin off, and can be considered the spiritual successor to Balloon Fighter. Since Mario has two spin offs (or three if you count DK), I think Zelda might as well get a spin off too.

I'd hate to cut either, but I guess you can say this is a cut Ghirahim vote if you need ammunition.

 

[yani]

This is the perfect oppurtunity to write about my favorite.

Shortie, I'd like Rayman to be added as a possible 3rd party character. He's the mascot of Ubisoft and the company has a good relationship with Nintendo. Ubisoft is one of the companies that profited off of the Wii, and one of these games are Rayman's (Rayman Raving Rabbids), which sold over 1 million copies on the system, along with other titles such as Just Dance (thus affecting Nintendo's success with the system positively). While that game is not a favorite of many Rayman fans, Rayman's most recent adventure Rayman Origins has also appeared on the system. It has been well-received by fans and critics alike, and that game alone can provide plenty of moveset potential for Rayman, like Yoshi's Island (for the SNES) was the base of Yoshi's moves in Super Smash Brothers.

Also, Ubisoft has taken an interest in the Wii U by developing a new platforming Rayman game that is a sequel to Origins, and iirc, this is the first new game to be unveiled that has showcased some Wii U-specific features.

Rayman Legends:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_efOu9-Y7g

While I'm not a Rayman fan, I definitely wouldn't rule him out as a possibility. Ubisoft is here to back the Wii-U up 1000% and with the recent appraise of Rayman Origins and the new Rayman Legends, it might be a scenario where they approach Nintendo about getting him in. I'll second his nomination.

edit- didn't realize this was gonna be a double, sorry.

 

[Deleted member]

I gave an explanation for why to take out Ike and keep Krom, but I don't think anything I say will be taken into account.

It wouldn't hurt to try again, though, as fruitless as it may be.

There is a problem with having both Ike and Krom, and that is they are pretty much the same deal when it comes to moveset. I'm being literal; Krom fights the exact same way as Ike and even has Quick Draw and Aether, two of Ike's moves from Brawl.
A big counterargument to this is "Well Roy was a Marth clone in Melee", however, within the FE series, Roy fights very different from Marth when he wields the Sword of Seals. Guess what sword he was wielding in Melee? The Sword of Seals. It isn't out of the question that Roy would get his actual fighting style for his return into Smash Bros., and at the same time, even if he was doomed to be similar to Marth again, he would very likely get the Falco/Ganondorf treatment to keep him from being a complete clone.
So what would this mean for Ike? Essentially, everything he does in Brawl sans Eruption would be given to Krom instead. As for Eruption, Roy comes back with Flare Blade, the original version of the move. Krom would be able to have one move unique from Brawl Ike as a result, which would be most likely filled with a lance attack, due to being able to use one once he's promoted to Master Lord.
In any case, Krom has proven to be an Ike 2.0 within Kakusei, and since it is "important" to add the latest main character to many people (not me), It would be best to remove Ike 1.0 for Ike 2.0.

Now in order to have a TRUE FE Newcomer, rather than just one that essentially is an update on a old veteran (like Young Link to Toon Link), we could add Micaiah as a Newcomer.
She also represents the Tellius arc like Ike, and was the only other "main" hero of the arc. Granted it was for only the first half of Radiant Dawn, she still left an impact. To this day, she is a highly requested character in Japan, which seem to want her for her, rather than wanting her for being a female like America did, simply brushing her off when Caeda went into spotlight again, and followed by Liz, Anna, and now

Spoiler

Lucina

. However, Micaiah has her role alongside Marth and Roy as part of a DLC saga in Kakusei, the Spirit Talisman story. She follows Marth and Roy as DLC for this saga, and they are required for her part to be received. Normally this wouldn't mean anything, however, it should be noted that she is DLC before Ike is.
Another thing going for Micaiah is the fact that she isn't another sword wielder, but rather a Mage. She is capable of using Light Magic and Dark Magic, and can provide something more unique to the FE cast as a result.

These good enough paragraphs?

 

[grizby2]

Here it is.






Bowser Jr. /Shadow Mario

Bowser’s bad little boy, Bowser Jr. is finally here to fight, and he is raring to go. He even brought along his magical paint brush, which means he can turn into his alter-ego, the ominous Shadow Mario.

Bowser Jr. Special Moves

B-Neutral--- Fire Ball---Bowser Jr. breathes a fireball, which travels for about as long as Wolf’s laser, but faster. Chargeable. When fully charged he spits out 3 fireballs at once.

B-Side---Sonic Roar---This move is from Mario Strikers Charged. It sends a large sound wave to resonate across the stage. It does moderate damage. More importantly, if used close up, it will stun opponent for about three seconds. It can wake up other players.

B-Up---Koopa Clown Car---Junior’s own personal Koopa Clown Car is being used as his recovery move. It can move in all directions, at about the same speed as R.O.B’s recovery move. It lasts about 5 seconds before it disappears.

B-Down---Transform---Bowser Jr. raises his paintbrush above his head and coats himself in paint, turning himself into Shadow Mario. It works just like Zelda’s transformation move, albeit, a bit faster.

Final Smash---Mecha Bowser---In honor of his father, Bowser Jr. has erected a giant metal monument to his dad, including a flamethrower and an endless array of Bullet Bills. When Jr. activates his Final Smash, the Mecha Bowser rises in the background to rain terror on Junior’s foes. He jumps on its head and lets loose a flamethrower by holding down the A-button. With a simple press of the B-button he can launch a Bullet Bill. You can change the direction the weapons launch. It lasts about 10 seconds before disappearing.
Shadow Mario Special Moves

B-Neutral---Paint Shot---Shadow Mario fires a ball of paint at his opponent. However, the paint may randomly select a different after-effect. A 1 in 5 chance of catching fire, slowly doing damage for 10 seconds, a 1 in 10 chance of freezing the opponent, and a 1 in 50 of doing 100% damage.

B-Over---Sticky Paint Ball---SM shoots a ball of gooey paint at his opponent, slightly slowing down reaction time and running speed. The more Sticky Paint Balls that hit the opponent, the slower they get.

B-Up---Paint Portal---Shadow Mario creates a portal below him with a stroke of his brush. He falls into it and disappears for a moment giving you a second to choose where the second portal reforms, which he then falls out of to safety. There is a downside to this otherwise, very good recovery move. You become very vulnerable when you land.
Down-B---Transform---Simply put, you change back to Bowser Jr.

Final Smash---Mecha Bowser---You revert back to Bowser Jr. and use Mecha Bowser as normal. Nothing special…

So, opinions?

hmmm, not bad actually.
im not sure i like the whole paintbrush moveset though. it kinda reflects too much on a game we should be forgetting about (super mario sunshine). granted it was a great game, but if mario loses his current down-b , it wouldn't fit as much.

this is why i think bowser jr should be by himself. your bowser jr moveset has a great mix of classic and new koopa-esque attacks. i also find it funny for bowser jr to use his own dad's clown car at his own disposle. XD
i picture the fire ball being the one commonly seen in the classic mario games (like ludwig von koopa)
i think i might have gone from neutral, from supportive

 

[BirthNote]

I'd say cut Ryu because we should narrow down the amount of 3rd party characters that each company has in Smash to 1. Also Lucario can go due to Zoroark's presence

Ghirahim vs Tingle is a tough one. On one hand, you have the first villain of LoZ, which is a pretty big deal. With a moveset practically drawn out for him, he seems like he was created to be in Smash. On the other, you have a recurring character who got his own spin off, and can be considered the spiritual successor to Balloon Fighter. Since Mario has two spin offs (or three if you count DK), I think Zelda might as well get a spin off too.

I'd hate to cut either, but I guess you can say this is a cut Ghirahim vote if you need ammunition.

EDIT: Didn't know that.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say cut Ryu because we should narrow down the amount of 3rd party characters that each company has in Smash to 1. Also Lucario can go due to Zoroark's presence



What if Tingle could get his own series slot like Yoshi to avoid any problems?

It should be noted that Sakurai still counts the sub-series as part of the main series...so why shouldn't we?

 

[Holder of the Heel]

If Zelda is to get another representative, the options as has been said before are Impa, GHIRAHIM, Skull Kid, Tingle, and Vaati. Not much else seems even possible.

Impa Pros:

-Has appeared multiple times
-Most recent appearance is rather recent
-Is a female character (really not much of a pro probably in Sakurai's eyes, but there isn't much to go on)

Impa Cons:

-Only appears as a supporting role everytime, almost impossible to change
-little to moveset potential relying on original moves almost entirely
-Small fanbase
-Potential to be Sheik clone or a luigified clone of Sheik

Skull Kid Pros:

-Really friggin cool
-Main villian role
-Absolutely zero chance of being a clone

Skull Kid Cons:

-Smallish fanbase
-Hasn't appeared in a long while and unlikely to reappear
-Moveset although easy would have to be fairly original due to all of the moves would be derived from instances with his boss fight in which he is always something other than the Skull Kid

Vaati Pros:

-Several main villian appearances
-Excellent moveset potential
-Little to no chance of bearing any resemblance to anyone else with moves and playstyle

Vaati Cons:

-Smallish fanbase
-Potentially unlikely to reappear again (???)

Ghirahim Pros:

-Freshest appearance next to impa
-Lead Role
-Excellent moveset potential
-VERY Fitting character
-Fabulous

Ghirahim Cons:

-Unlikely (???) to reappear again
-Smallish fanbase

If one has to be added, as you can see, that if you were to measure the pros and cons on a scale, Ghirahim would clearly have the best ratio. It could also be noteworthy to say that all of them have the con of having a not so loud or adequate fanbase, so one could say that if we are going on the assumption there is to a newcomer at all, that that particular con is irrelevant on all of them, and therefore, Ghirahim only has his (potential) oneshot appearance against him. As a result, the only real hurdle for Ghirahim really is whether the Zelda franchise is getting ANYONE. Which is arguably quite the big one, and thus his chances are still low, and everyone else's lower still. (Vaati is a close second though, I find him quite interesting myself.)

I didn't include Tingle because I have said so much why I wouldn't like him appearing in the Zelda franchise a lot already, and see him bearing more potential as his own thingy.

Edit: As for Ghirahim's remaining con, I can see the unlikelihood of Nintendo ever returning to him, or giving him another reincanartion, but I am slightly less harsh on it (and perhaps in a biased manner, but I am saying this point in defense of his con) is that while Nintendo just seems like the kind of company to not take advantage of this, Ghirahim would work very well if future Zelda games were willing to include the anti-Master Sword again, which is very well possible if Demise is to reappear. In fact, I'd estimate that there is almost a 100% of Ghirahim returning if Demise does. Skyward Sword does indicate that Demise was obviously not always sealed and that there were Link reincarnations before the one in the timeline. I think an exact number was given, 2, which is an interesting thing to note.

 

[Xhampi]

Also Lucario can go due to Zoroark's present

Lucario should be allowed to stay in smash bros for the simple following reasons:
-He still have some poppularity.
-He's not a clone.
-New pokemon players deserve more than just 1 pokemon.
-He represent a whole pokemon generation by himself and well better than Pichu did.

 

[Metal Mania1321]

Am I the only one who thinks Zelda has enough represenatives (5!)

 

[Metal Overlord]

Lucario and Zoroark aren't even all that similar besides the fact that they're bipedal and that they're canines

Oh yeah, and they're both the poster boys for the newer gens

I feel the same way Metal (unsurprisingly)

 

[BirthNote]

Lucario should be allowed to stay in smash bros for the simple following reasons:
-He still have some poppularity. So do the others.
-He's not a clone. Neither are the others.
-New pokemon players deserve more than just 1 pokemon. Then Jigglypuff or Mewtwo can go/stay out as a new pokemon takes their place.
-He represent a whole pokemon generation by himself and well better than Pichu did. So could Zoroark, or a new set of pokemon that could come from the trainer.

Replies in yellow.

Am I the only one who thinks Zelda has enough represenatives (5!)

But don't Ghirahim and Tingle make it 6?

"Mewtwo can go"

But he already left

Lol, yeah, that's why I put stay out.

 

[Metal Overlord]

"Mewtwo can go"

But he already left

 

[Jakor]

Well, the Zelda series hasn't had a new character since Melee, so it really deserves to get a new one this time around. Not to mention that from those characters, two are clones.

 

[Lukingordex]

Lucario should be allowed to stay in smash bros for the simple following reasons:
-He still have some poppularity.
-He's not a clone.
-New pokemon players deserve more than just 1 pokemon.
-He represent a whole pokemon generation by himself and well better than Pichu did.

And better than Mew2 did too.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Nothing is better than Mewtwo

 

[Shorts]

I'd hate to cut either, but I guess you can say this is a cut Ghirahim vote if you need ammunition.

Then you don't have to! Only cut if you want to, I was giving suggestions though

SO, Xhampi and Jakor, do you want to... cut Junior? Or would you rather not? You think he's less likely, but would you LIKE HIM CUT? That's the question.

And Everybody, look at this:

There is a problem with having both Ike and Krom, and that is they are pretty much the same deal when it comes to moveset. I'm being literal; Krom fights the exact same way as Ike and even has Quick Draw and Aether, two of Ike's moves from Brawl.
A big counterargument to this is "Well Roy was a Marth clone in Melee", however, within the FE series, Roy fights very different from Marth when he wields the Sword of Seals. Guess what sword he was wielding in Melee? The Sword of Seals. It isn't out of the question that Roy would get his actual fighting style for his return into Smash Bros., and at the same time, even if he was doomed to be similar to Marth again, he would very likely get the Falco/Ganondorf treatment to keep him from being a complete clone.
So what would this mean for Ike? Essentially, everything he does in Brawl sans Eruption would be given to Krom instead. As for Eruption, Roy comes back with Flare Blade, the original version of the move. Krom would be able to have one move unique from Brawl Ike as a result, which would be most likely filled with a lance attack, due to being able to use one once he's promoted to Master Lord.
In any case, Krom has proven to be an Ike 2.0 within Kakusei, and since it is "important" to add the latest main character to many people (not me), It would be best to remove Ike 1.0 for Ike 2.0.

Is this reason enough to cut Ike? I would say no, simply, because, Sakurai has a brain. Fox and Falco, Mario and Luigi, all can do the exact same things in their game, it doesn't take much to go, hmm, tweak here there, and there, and the characters plays different from one another.

I will only cut a veteran, if MOST want them cut.
I also put Micaiah in the Newcomer consideration place Golden.

Lucario and Zoroark aren't even all that similar besides the fact that they're bipedal and that they're canines

Thank you. Personally, I don't think any Pokemon should be cut. We should also get Zorotinisect AND Mewtwo.

 

[BR75]

Well, the Zelda series hasn't had a new character since Melee, so it really deserves to get a new one this time around. Not to mention that from those characters, two are clones.

This

 

[Lukingordex]

Welcome BR75

 

[grizby2]

yay, more buddies. hopefully you'll be up-to-date on the topic real soon BR75.

 

[Xhampi]

I don't think you have comprehend what I try to say, i don't support a cut for the pokemon series.
I'ts not too crazy to imagine a 6 slot series for a serie like Mario or Pokemon, let's say : Pikachu, Jygglypuff, Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, Zoroark/Victini. None of them deserve to get cut.

And yes i want Jr to get cut (it's funny for me to tell this i have support Jr for years) .

 

[Jakor]

Yes, I want Bowser Jr. to be cut.

Personally, I would prefer Roy to be cut, and Krom to be added, since I'd much rather have a new character from Fire Emblem than seeing an old one returning. Or, I could see Krom replacing Ike too. As long as there is no more than three characters from Fire Emblem. So I say cut either Roy or Ike.

And welcome, BR75.

 

[Shorts]

I would just like to point out, for Toad... yes he has been constant in the Mario series... and isn't that a pretty big uh oh sign? He's constantly been AS important, and prominent as he is at the moment....

and as far as we know, has NEVER been considered for Smash... why consider him now?

Along with "I think a character is uniteresting" I don't take too much stock into "X would be a clone" either. I mean, yeah, they're points... but... not good ones.

Yes, I want Bowser Jr. to be cut.

I got it written down.

So far, I only have one character I'm REALLY convinced to cut, and TWO (maybe three) I'm convinced to add... so, just putting that out there.

 

[Metal Mania1321]

I don't think you have comprehend what I try to say, i don't support a cut for the pokemon series.
I'ts not too crazy to imagine a 6 slot series for a serie like Mario or Pokemon, let's say : Pikachu, Jygglypuff, Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, Zoroark/Victini. None of them deserve to get cut.

And yes i want Jr to get cut (it's funny for me to tell this i have support Jr for years) .

Seems a little 1st Gen heavy, no?

@Shortie: Cut Toad and Krom (we don't need 3 blue-haired sword users from the same series, and Ike is my main)

 

[Lukingordex]

Poor Bowser Jr...

 

[Shorts]

So far the reasons given to cut Junior are:

Clone material
Toad is a better choice
He wasn't in two games in 2011


. . . I'm not willing to cut on just those reasons.... JUST YET. Especially because they're easily refuted or made irrelevent. (With the exception of the second one... that's a legitimate reason.. if someone would elaborate on it)

BUT, I do have him voted to be cut TWICE as well. So, yeah, votes are votes, and reasons are reasons... no matter how silly.

 

[Xhampi]

Seems a little 1st Gen heavy, no?

That's why i don't want Lucario to get cut.
-Pikachu deserve his place.

-The pokemon Trainer is the main character of the games and is actually using the most poppular starters .

-Mewtwo removal was one of the biggest complaint about the roster of Brawl and I do not think that Sakurai missed that reaction.

-Jygglypuff is still here because she is one of the original 12 and i don't see her go now sadly.

 

[BirthNote]

I'd say cut Toad. A magic paintbrush can provide so many possibilities.

 

[Deleted member]

I want no vets cut. All Brawl vets are popular characters people like playing as and most are going to reject the idea of any cuts anyway on those. They would rather cut newcomers before veterans in most cases.

So I'm going to say this. I have several reasons why I feel Zoroark should be cut from the roster. Keep opposition towards Lucario and Mewtwo low and I won't touch Zoroark. If Lucario or Mewtwo is in any danger of being cut from the roster or if it comes down to only five Pokemon slots, I will push for Zoroark's removal.

Anyway, going to look over Shortie's recent roster and debate who should be cut and who should stay.

 

[Arcadenik]

I would just like to point out, for Toad... yes he has been constant in the Mario series... and isn't that a pretty big uh oh sign? He's constantly been AS important, and prominent as he is at the moment....

and as far as we know, has NEVER been considered for Smash... why consider him now?

Along with "I think a character is uniteresting" I don't take too much stock into "X would be a clone" either. I mean, yeah, they're points... but... not good ones.

Oh come on now... we could say the same thing about several other characters.

Ridley was never considered for Smash. Why consider him now?
King K. Rool was never considered for Smash. Why consider him now?
Krystal was never considered for Smash. Why consider her now?

Get what I am saying? Just because a character has never been considered for Smash before doesn't mean they cannot be reconsidered later on.

 

[Metal Mania1321]

So far the reasons given to cut Junior are:

Clone material
Toad is a better choice
He wasn't in two games in 2011


. . . I'm not willing to cut on just those reasons.... JUST YET. Especially because they're easily refuted or made irrelevent. (With the exception of the second one... that's a legitimate reason.. if someone would elaborate on it)

BUT, I do have him voted to be cut TWICE as well. So, yeah, votes are votes, and reasons are reasons... no matter how silly.

Krom should be cut. We don't need 3 Blue-haired FE sword-users.

Toad should also be cut. He is generic, and is one of Peach's moves.

 

[Shorts]

I suppose, it's just, unlike those three, you can't OVERLOOK TOAD, without PURPOSELY overlooking him. He's freaking Toad. But, I don't mind the idea of Toad in Smash, so I don't care to get into a Toad debate.

I'm still going to disagree with replacing Ike for Krom. Ike is unique, was suggested by IS, and a starter (I'm grasping at straws here, but still).Cutting a unique for Krom AND bringing back a character who was a clone just sounds silly. I think it's Roy vs. Krom, in which Roy still has my vote for having Smash importance.

Forget about the VS, just think "Who should be cut" and "Who should stay?" The vs mentality is NOT what I want this to be.

Also, the reasoning for cutting Ike was silly, and not many are going for it. It's still on the table, but I'm not cutting him atm.

Here's the recent roster for everyone to look at. Specifically Arcade and SSBF

 

[yani]

I'm still going to disagree with replacing Ike for Krom. Ike is unique, was suggested by IS, and a starter (I'm grasping at straws here, but still).Cutting a unique for Krom AND bringing back a character who was a clone just sounds silly. I think it's Roy vs. Krom, in which Roy still has my vote for having Smash importance.

 

[grizby2]

i agree with birthnote, bowser jr would open up a different view of how the mario univers looks and is presented in brawl.

 

[Xhampi]

So far the reasons given to cut Junior are:

Clone material
Toad is a better choice
He wasn't in two games in 2011


. . . I'm not willing to cut on just those reasons.... JUST YET. Especially because they're easily refuted or made irrelevent. (With the exception of the second one... that's a legitimate reason.. if someone would elaborate on it)

BUT, I do have him voted to be cut TWICE as well. So, yeah, votes are votes, and reasons are reasons... no matter how silly.

His best chance was in Brawl after Super Mario Sunshine and New super Mario Bros. after being twice the main antagonist, have some personality other than "Dad tell me to kill you, you will never beat me, destroy him *enter name of a boss or a robot" and actually matter to the scenario.

 

[Deleted member]

Ghirahim AND Tingle

Toad AND Junior

Medusa AND Palutena

Krom AND Roy

ALL the Smaller franchises.

Is this for who should be cut?

If so, cut Bowser Jr. Toad is more iconic, more important, and considerably more popular of a request than Bowser Jr. He is almost as recognizable as the four we have in Brawl. Bowser Jr. falls behind in all of those categories.

Definitely cut Tingle. Many people like Ghirahim and there is a decent amount of requests for him. Plus he has potentials for a really unique move set from his game (Demise works great as a Final Smash of his for example). Tingle is hated by America and indifference are the rest of the world thoughts on Tingle.

Cut Medusa. Palutena is the second most important character in Kid Icarus and is a more popular request than Medusa. She also does far more in Uprising than Medusa and in Japan, the title name are named after Palutena.

I'm not sure which of Krom or Roy should be cut because I think both should be in. So I won't bother here.

For smaller franchises, cut Shulk. Isaac, Saki, and Little Mac are far more popular and wanted than Shulk and Sakurai is interested in Saki. Plus the three I support to stay are Assist Trophies that exhibited move set potentials whereas Shulk hasn't gotten anything yet (explained by being new, but Sakurai may not know much about Shulk other than the hype for the game).

 

[BirthNote]

I want no vets cut. All Brawl vets are popular characters people like playing as and most are going to reject the idea of any cuts anyway on those. They would rather cut newcomers before veterans in most cases.

I really agree with the last sentence, but I don't think all Brawl veterans should or would stay. If we lost some from Melee (even if most were clones) why wouldn't we lose some from Brawl, which has a bigger roster? Cuts just seem inevitable, and not having a couple removals is what helps make a perfect roster. We may as well take every potential newcomer if we're not having cuts, and a rule of Shortie's game is to be realistic.

If so, cut Bowser Jr. Toad is more iconic, more important, and considerably more popular of a request than Bowser Jr. He is almost as recognizable as the four we have in Brawl. Bowser Jr. falls behind in all of those categories.

Sad but true. I still stand by my cut Toad decision though.

 

[Shorts]

Forget the VS mentality, but, I'll take some of those reasons you posted SSBF. I would like to say, you're reaallly REALLY splitting hairs when saying Toad is more popular than Junior. Because honestly, Junior is more popular than all the other contenders, probably with the exception of Mewtwo and Toad.. Also, I don't play hate base. If Tingle was so hated, he wouldn't have shown up in Melee and Brawl.

But, some of your other points are solid.

Bowser Jr. is by far a more likely inclusion than Toad simply -because- of his ability to use a cloned moveset. You can't honestly tell me he's unlikely for being similar to Bowser...if that was the case, no way would Wolf or Toon Link have appeared in Brawl.

Oh yeah, remember it's what WE WANT/THINK SHOULD happen... not so much what is "likely" but that's a good point regardless.

 

[BKupa666]

Bowser Jr. is by far a more likely inclusion than Toad simply -because- of his ability to use a cloned moveset. You can't honestly tell me he's unlikely for being similar to Bowser...if that was the case, no way would Wolf or Toon Link have appeared in Brawl.

 

[Arcadenik]

I suppose, it's just, unlike those three, you can't OVERLOOK TOAD, without PURPOSELY overlooking him. He's freaking Toad. But, I don't mind the idea of Toad in Smash, so I don't care to get into a Toad debate.

I think that it just comes down to limited number of slots for non-clone newcomers, though clone newcomers could break this limit if Sakurai needs to buff the roster on a short notice, and how to allocate the slots to which franchises. You know, prioritize stuff... decide which franchises should get a new character and who is that character.

 

[Deleted member]

I really agree with the last sentence, but I don't think all Brawl veterans should or would stay. If we lost some from Melee (even if most were clones) why wouldn't we lose some from Brawl, which has a bigger roster? Cuts just seem inevitable, and not having a couple removals is what helps make a perfect roster. We may as well take every potential newcomer if we're not having cuts, and a rule of Shortie's game is to be realistic.

Last time I checked, this isn't about realism, it's about what SHOULD happen. And what should happen is every Brawl character return. Assuming we get 53 characters, that means we would have room for fourteen newcomers (which is a lot, especially with us reaching the point where Sakurai may not be able to add much more before having to refresh it entirely).