New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Metal Overlord]

As a 100% casual player, I think that Brawl is a great game, but I think Melee is a little better

*goes back to lurking*

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I enjoy Brawl more, although I understand most don't think that and I get why. I just always liked the next installment more than the previous, so I'm guessing SSB4 for me will top them all, especially with how fun the Wii U seems and how the 3DS is going to be implemented as well, which is quite curious.

It doesn't help that my Melee disc doesn't work after all the years so I can't play it anymore to compare the two better. T_T

 

[Shorts]

I'm casual, and I think Brawl plays slow, sleepy, and it's honestly a bore to me. I like being able to tear the opponent apart like you can in Melee.

Brawl is dandy, just, it doesn't have that "YEAH I CANT WAIT TO LEARN HOW TO DO X Y AND Z BETTER!" feel that most fighters have.

 

[Big-Cat]

Brawl is dandy, just, it doesn't have that "YEAH I CANT WAIT TO LEARN HOW TO DO X Y AND Z BETTER!" feel that most fighters have.

Because Sakurai didn't want the baby players to have their feelings hurt.

 

[Wizzrobe]

[glow]To be honest, I think that if all Brawl players fully understood Melee's technical skill and how to do it, than almost ALL of them would prefer Melee more.[/glow]

 

[yani]

Sonic's homing attack needs to be better, and give him a new B> or Bv and he's perfect imo. In KI:U Pit's voice is very tolerable, but I HATE Sonic's new VA's (all of them except Tails)

 

[Johnknight1]

What I'm saying is that trying to be competitive doesn't work because you alienate everyone else. Look at all the competitive games out there. They always came out of a really popular game that wasn't trying to be "viable."

Again, you are dealing in absolutes. You see smash as either competitive or not. If you alienate people who take the game seriously, you lose an audience. That audience then might not buy your company's future consoles. You lose an audience, you lose money. If you consistently lose fan bases like that, your company goes under. It's that simple.

But what happens when they try to be competitive. We know the story with fighting games,. how the genre has been rather weak. Most 2D fighting games do poorly and Capcom has yet to beat out SF2. Starcraft 2 isn't as big as Starcraft 1. Halo Reach did worse than the others. Basically, it never works. My stance also hold true because

That is because there are a lot more shooters, RTS, and fighting games of high quality these days than there used to be. There isn't just 2 good options anymore, but 20.

1)Brawl is the best selling fighting game and it tired to remove itself from competitive Smash as much as it could

Okay, but when did Sakurai or Nintendo try to do that=??? Sakurai actually applied many of the things to Brawl that Gimpyfish suggested after he and several other competitive Melee players suggested at E For All (such as making Zero Suit Samus stronger).

There is nothing wrong with that, as a mod. Should Smash 4 take notes. No.

Even if the game is just for casuals, it needs balance. Without balancing the game for multiplayer, it would be trash.

Fine, let's look at other games than
360 Games
PS3 Games
And Mario Galaxy for kicks and giggles

Notice how the trend is that they all are selling for less than Brawl. Brawl has obviously held it's value.

Again, all of those games have "viable competition" in their genre. For instance, Super Mario Galaxy has a lot of viable platform competition. It's called Galaxy 2, NEW Super Mario Bros, DKC Returns, and all those Sonic games. Again, tell me a game like Smash that is even worth playing a 2nd time=??? (hint: Turtles Smash Up isn't)

Basically, you proved my point. Also I must point out that there are basically no quality 3rd party fighting games on the Wii, except for Tatsunoko vs. Capcom.

Games don't work like that. I don't say "There is no Smash like game so I have to get Smash."

That's how I buy games, and that's how I buy shoes. If I don't think Nike has good shoes, I consider buying other brands of shoes like Adidas shoes. And if I can't find shoes, I look at other related products-like sandals or flip flops. In video game terms, this would be like me buying another genre of games if the genre I am looking at has no good games on my console.

Smash would compete with other multiplayer games like Mario Kart. The customer doesn't specificity want a Smash brothers like title. They want something to play with their friends. Seeing as how well Brawl has done, I can say it did that job well.

Kind of. Again, Smash is the only good "shoe" (platform/fighting game combination) and 1 of the 2 or 3 good fighting games on the Wii. As for Mario Kart Wii's sales, I think it sold better due to the new super hyped motion controls (people were crazy for those things from 2005-2008; now they've kind of become like Guitar Hero; old!) and better marketing.

So if there is no hours, I can't call Brawl better than Melee. Of course, there is the fact that Brawl sold better than Melee worldwide. Obviously, they did it right with Brawl.

Uh, no. The Gamecube sold about 1/4th as many copies as the Wii (24 million units to about 97 million units). Thus, naturally the amount of people who could buy Brawl was 4 times as much. Seeing as how Melee sold about 7-8 million copies, Brawl should have sold 28-32 million copies more. But no, Brawl sold about 10-11 million.

 

[Big-Cat]

Down B should be a stance.

 

[Lukingordex]

[glow]To be honest, I think that if all Brawl players fully understood Melee's technical skill and how to do it, than almost ALL of them would prefer Melee more.[/glow]

Depends if this player is casual or not.

 

[Metal Overlord]

I like Roger Craig Smith as Sonic's VA (definitely a hell of a lot more than Jason Griffith)

 

[Disfunkshunal]

@wizzrobe
That's not true only because you're making the big assumption that they'll like applying the technical skill. For example I invested a lot of time in learning competitive tactics and techniques of brawl. I still understand it but I hardly use it anymore because it's not as fun TO ME as just spazzing around with my friends with items on.
Just an FYI, I'm gonna start calling you wizard Kelly because proud family>>>>

Personally I prefer brawl but I'm kinda in the same boat as holder. There are very few instances when I like the prequel over the sequel.

@smooth criminal vs. bread[]
Well Damn.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Sonic's homing attack needs to be better, and give him a new B> or Bv and he's perfect imo. In KI:U Pit's voice is very tolerable, but I HATE Sonic's new VA's (all of them except Tails)

I like Sonic's new voice actor, but Jason Griffith is my favorite. Even if his acting wasn't the best, his voice just fitted Sonic so perfectly IMO. I remember everyone use to hate him as Sonic's voice actor. I don't see that hate as much anymore though lol.

 

[Johnknight1]

Yeah, but I would personally like it where these had more control in their outcomes. Dedede's real easy to make consistent. Green Missile Misfire can be turned into an EX Green Missile. Judgment is stupid and I'd like to see something else. Then again, I find G+W to be boring.

For Peach, I'm wondering if a "charge" to pluck the stronger turnips could work too.

II think Luigi Missile is fine with a 1/8th chance. Dedede's is pretty consistent, and most of the "common" upgrades aren't that strong.

Judgment just needs to come out faster, do less damage, and have the random effects not be that different. Maybe have 1 that does super damage, but make it really rare.

As for Peach, that's something I can't say "yes" or "no" to. I would have to 1st know the direction of the game and game play, and how it turns out.

 

[Wizzrobe]

@wizzrobe
That's not true only because you're making the big assumption that they'll like applying the technical skill. For example I invested a lot of time in learning competitive tactics and techniques of brawl. I still understand it but I hardly use it anymore because it's not as fun TO ME as just spazzing around with my friends with items on.
Just an FYI, I'm gonna start calling you wizard Kelly because proud family>>>>

Personally I prefer brawl but I'm kinda in the same boat as holder. There are very few instances when I like the prequel over the sequel.

@smooth criminal vs. bread[]
Well Damn.

Well, competitive-wise, Melee would be better. And due to technical skill, it has more tactics and technqiues than Brawl does. Also most Brawl players dislike camping, and Melee doesn't have that problem. Although, I could see someone liking Brawl better ONLY if they are just playing it casually due to more characters more extras and things to do and such.

 

[Big-Cat]

Depends if this player is casual or not.

I think it's easier to understand if you look at it as there being more things to do while fighting in Melee compared to Brawl. Don't think about the difficulty behind it. Would you be mad if they took out things like wall jumps?

 

[Metal Overlord]

I still don't like him

Jaleel White, Martin Burke, and Ryan Drummond. NOW we're talkin'

Oh, and, Proud Family?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mret0XCrP0o

They'll make you screeeeam
THEY MAKE YA WANNA SIIING

 

[Disfunkshunal]

Judgment is sorta like that already . 9 does super damage and has 1/9 chance at first and then a 1/8 chance. With that being said the randomness of judgement makes it nearly useless and it would need a complete over haul including less numbers to make it remotely useful.

Proud family gave me my username
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NvfQjRmUa8

 

[Wizzrobe]

I still don't like him

Jaleel White, Martin Burke, and Ryan Drummond. NOW we're talkin'

Oh, and, Proud Family?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mret0XCrP0o

Thats fine. I don't remember where Martin Burke voiced Sonic. When I think of all Sonic's main voice actors, I think of Jaleel White, Ryan Drummond, Jason Griffith, and Roger Craig Smith.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, competitive-wise, Melee would be better. And due to technical skill, it has more tactics and technqiues than Brawl does. Also most Brawl players dislike camping, and Melee doesn't have that problem. Although, I could see someone liking Brawl better ONLY if they are just playing it casually due to more characters more extras and things to do and such.

Okay, this is still assumptions.

Brawl Tourneys are currently more frequent than Melee Tourneys. So competitive-wise, Brawl already beats them.

Having more skills doesn't mean it'll be more competitive at all.

And please don't say people only enjoy it casually. I only enjoy it competitively instead. Your assumption is proven false there too.

 

[Johnknight1]

I like Sonic's new voice actor's name. Roger Craig was a hell of a running back for the 49ers!

Also, I do like the new voice. It really fits Sonic.

As for Judgment, it needs to come out faster and do less damage. That is of course except say 1/9th or less of the time in which it should get enough knock back to kill most characters opponents at 100%.

Currently judgment comes out too slow, and it can't kill. In other words, it's currently useless. In order to be viable, it either needs to come out quicker, or be a reliable kill move.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

I think it's easier to understand if you look at it as there being more things to do while fighting in Melee compared to Brawl. Don't think about the difficulty behind it. Would you be mad if they took out things like wall jumps?

What was removed from Melee that was as significant as wall jumps?

Not sarcasm, genuinely don't know.

Unless you're talking things like Wavedashing.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ Breadbug: There was going to be no back and forth. I said my bit; you said yours. Now that that's outta the way, no hard feelings. I understand you a lot better now. I just don't think people here in this thread ignore each other outright and that your presence is as welcome as anyone else's. I just dislike the Debbie downer crap.

And Hyper...

Smooth Criminal

 

[Metal Overlord]

@Wizzy- Here's a sample of Martin Burke's voice for ya. From the Sonic OVA

STRAAAAAAAAAANGE ISN'T IT?!

HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG

@disfunk- Proud Family was definitely my favorite Disney show other than Kim Possible

And how come I didn't think of that before?! I even know that song and everything LOL

 

[Johnknight1]

Sonic's new voice actor doesn't just sound better, he has better lines, too.

@ Giant
L-cancelling (and thus a lot of after-move lag remained for characters that weren't top0tier or high-tier), wavedashing, and really combos for characters that aren't at a top of the tiers were removed (well, tons of broken chain grabs aside).

All that basically destroyed the offensive capabilities and potential of most of the characters in Brawl against the top and high tier characters. At least the low and mid-tier character users have a chance against about equal players of high and top-tier character users.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Okay, this is still assumptions.

Brawl Tourneys are currently more frequent than Melee Tourneys. So competitive-wise, Brawl already beats them.

Having more skills doesn't mean it'll be more competitive at all.

And please don't say people only enjoy it casually. I only enjoy it competitively instead. Your assumption is proven false there too.

[glow]The reason that Brawl tourneys are more frequent than Melee tourneys, is because MELEE IS 10 YEARS OLD. Brawl is a more recent game and a lot of Brawl players have barely even played Melee. You have got to remember how Old Melee is.

And I DIDN't say that people will only enjoy it casually. What I said was that the only way people will enjoy Brawl more than Melee is if they are playing it casually. (Due to more characters etc.) I DID NOT say that it couldn't be enjoyed played competitively.Almost everybody will go for Melee over Brawl if they want to play Smash competitively if they fully understand each game due to Melee's competitive nature.[/glow]

 

[Disfunkshunal]

@wizzkelly
Yes melee is more suited as a competive game than brawl but no not all competitive players don't prefer melee to brawl. That's a gross overgeneralization that makes sense on paper but isn't necessarily the case. And you know camping does exist in melee, it's not as bad but it dies exist. That last line shows that you are thinking very one dimensionally, it is possible to be competitive and prefer brawl. I think iblis is one of those people.

@john
That's not all, it is also extremely unreliable. Even if it came out quickly you can depend on it to have good damage because of its randomness, you can't depend on it to be a good kill move because knockback varies, and you can't even expect to get "really lucky" because you can't get the same number twice in a row(how amazing would it be to be able to pull off two 9s one right after the other?). For it to be a reliable kill move it can't be random, which means it needs to be replaced.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Why is Wizzy's post glowing like that

 

[Lukingordex]

Sometimes I get sad because I only played melee in a few times...

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

[glow]The reason that Brawl tourneys are more frequent than Melee tourneys, is because MELEE IS 10 YEARS OLD. Brawl is a more recent game and a lot of Brawl players have barely even played Melee. You have got to remember how Old Melee is.

And I DIDN't say that people will only enjoy it casually. What I said was that the only way people will enjoy Brawl more than Melee is if they are playing it casually. (Due to more characters etc.) I DID NOT say that it couldn't be enjoyed played competitively.Almost everybody will go for Melee over Brawl if they fully understand each game due to Melee's competitive nature.[/glow]

People who say Brawl is better than Melee are usually younger people who didn't really live up to Melee when it was on the scene, heck, i've come across Brawl players that doesn't know what SSB64 is.

 

[Johnknight1]

@ People talking about Brawl having more and bigger tournaments than Melee
Brawl doesn't really have more tournaments, at least in California. I know as someone who lives in California that Brawl has maybe 3-6 Brawl-only tournaments a month, whereas Melee will have about 8 to 10. However, many tournaments in California have both games, especially in Southern California and up by Sacramento. Also worth noting is that a lot of the Brawl tournament scene in Northern California has died, and most of the people only show up at regional/major/monthly tournaments. All the huge tournaments like regional and nationals in California have both (most noticeably amongst those is Genesis).

Also at national and international tournaments with both games, Brawl usually has higher entries. However, Melee has bigger crowds and more viewers usually on live stream. However, it should be dully noted that Melee has more (exclusive) international/national tournaments than Brawl.

 

[SmashChu]

Again, you are dealing in absolutes. You see smash as either competitive or not. If you alienate people who take the game seriously, you lose an audience. That audience then might not buy your company's future consoles. You lose an audience, you lose money. If you consistently lose fan bases like that, your company goes under. It's that simple.

That is because there are a lot more shooters, RTS, and fighting games of high quality these days than there used to be. There isn't just 2 good options anymore, but 20.

Okay, but when did Sakurai or Nintendo try to do that=??? Sakurai actually applied many of the things to Brawl that Gimpyfish suggested after he and several other competitive Melee players suggested at E For All (such as making Zero Suit Samus stronger).

Even if the game is just for casuals, it needs balance. Without balancing the game for multiplayer, it would be trash.

Again, all of those games have "viable competition" in their genre. For instance, Super Mario Galaxy has a lot of viable platform competition. It's called Galaxy 2, NEW Super Mario Bros, DKC Returns, and all those Sonic games. Again, tell me a game like Smash that is even worth playing a 2nd time=??? (hint: Turtles Smash Up isn't)

Basically, you proved my point. Also I must point out that there are basically no quality 3rd party fighting games on the Wii, except for Tatsunoko vs. Capcom.

That's how I buy games, and that's how I buy shoes. If I don't think Nike has good shoes, I consider buying other brands of shoes like Adidas shoes. And if I can't find shoes, I look at other related products-like sandals or flip flops. In video game terms, this would be like me buying another genre of games if the genre I am looking at has no good games on my console.

Kind of. Again, Smash is the only good "shoe" (platform/fighting game combination) and 1 of the 2 or 3 good fighting games on the Wii. As for Mario Kart Wii's sales, I think it sold better due to the new super hyped motion controls (people were crazy for those things from 2005-2008; now they've kind of become like Guitar Hero; old!) and better marketing.

Uh, no. The Gamecube sold about 1/4th as many copies as the Wii (24 million units to about 97 million units). Thus, naturally the amount of people who could buy Brawl was 4 times as much. Seeing as how Melee sold about 7-8 million copies, Brawl should have sold 28-32 million copies more. But no, Brawl sold about 10-11 million.

I can tell this argument is over since you can only argue specific points. Yet the principle still stands. The argument was about Melee being more successful than Brawl, or, more specificly, saying if Brawl was successful. These facts remian
1)Brawl is the best selling fighting game
2)Brawl has sold more than Melee and 64 (and Melee sold worse than both in Japan)
3)Brawl is still played a lot
4)Brawl still sells for a lot.

As far as brawl being successful, it is. Only an idiot can't see it. What ever they did worked. I'll take a brief moment to clear up some of the specific things.

"You only see a game as competitive or not."
Fact is that trying to please competitive plaayers doesn't work for maintaining sales. As I mentioned, Melee did worse in Japan and Brawl did the best out of both. And yes, they did balance things but they removed most of Melees AT

"Smash has no competition"
Your a fool to think that customers only see it in very specific ways. Yes, Smash is the best and perhaps only platform/fighters. But people don't look for that. Using shoes, this would be customers looking for Air Jordan that are red with a white 5cm stripe, white 10 laces, and has a 4cm soul with a pointed end. They don't do that. They want a shoe, and they may want an Air Jordan. Smash is best compared to other fighting games or multiplayer games. Why did you buy Smash. If "Multiplayer" had anything to do with it, you've proven my case

"The Wii did 4 times better but Smash didn't"
If this was true, than all Gamecube sequels should do 4 times better. Go look at sales and none of the Gamecube game sequels did 4 times better. Not Mario Galaxy. Not Twilight Princess. Not Metroid Prime 3. Not Mario Kart Wii. What you are saying doesn't happen and no one expects it too.

 

[Johnknight1]

@john
That's not all, it is also extremely unreliable. Even if it came out quickly you can depend on it to have good damage because of its randomness, you can't depend on it to be a good kill move because knockback varies, and you can't even expect to get "really lucky" because you can't get the same number twice in a row(how amazing would it be to be able to pull off two 9s one right after the other?). For it to be a reliable kill move it can't be random, which means it needs to be replaced.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Like I said, it needs to do a constant reliable amount of damage that makes it viable, and it needs to either become a power or quick attack.

If Judgment keeps the random element where once in a while it does slight more damage, knock back, and/or stun than usual, that is fine by me, and totally viable.

If Judgment also has another random element where once every blue moon the move does massive damage (much like the frequency of Peach picking a bomb-omb), that's fine.

In other words, if the move stays, it needs to follow the Peach Turnip Pluck/King Dedede Waddle Dee Minion Toss model (or only do the former option and be like the Luigi Missile).

 

[Wizzrobe]

@wizzkelly
Yes melee is more suited as a competive game than brawl but no not all competitive players don't prefer melee to brawl. That's a gross overgeneralization that makes sense on paper but isn't necessarily the case. And you know camping does exist in melee, it's not as bad but it dies exist. That last line shows that you are thinking very one dimensionally, it is possible to be competitive and prefer brawl. I think iblis is one of those people.

[glow] Remember, I said ALMOST ALL would prefer Melee over Brawl. And I go on the Brawl boards a lot and people mention a lot of how "Brawl is slow" and how they dislike camping and etc. And Melee is the perfect fix for this. And yes, camping does exist in Melee, but barely at all. There are VERY VERY few matchups where camping can actually be used. Because good players can easily be punished if they are camping in Melee. And even though camping exists barely, its not really a problem due to Melee's combos and other aspects of the game. [/glow]

 

[GiantBreadbug]

@John Well I'm gonna go ahead and quash any credibility I have on the subject and say that I don't know very much about much of what you just said. Not because I am unfamiliar with the game (I own all three Smash Bros. in a physical form), but just because I approached playing Melee the same way I do Brawl.

Furthermore, I'm just going to politely withdraw myself from the Melee vs. Brawl discussion (not hat it's really ongoing anymore) by saying this:

I am what I suppose could be called a casual player. I do not play in tournaments, I do not analyze the aspects of the game much beyond the basic effects of moves, and I do not have contempt for those who do. I love Smash Bros., to the point that I discuss it on internet forums.

My non-gamer friends come over and we play Brawl for hours and hours. I play as all characters, on all stages, using all items. I usually end up winning most every match, simply because they aren't very good. But it's still fun. I don't notice the things that competitive players bring up about Brawl because I play it, and I enjoy it. Overwhelmingly more than Melee, even. It's fun, and that's all I need to know.

I hope against hope that SSB4 appeals equally to both crowds. If for no other reason than I know without a doubt that I'll love the game, because it's freaking Smash Bros., and it pains me to come somewhere I like being and seeing so much negativity thrown at my favorite game. I know it isn't the competitive scene's cup of tea, but for me it's a very special game. I can only anticipate that SSB4 will please the both of us, so that the need for this kind of explanation is not necessary.

I don't know, it's just hard for me to focus on less-competitive play as a con when I'm playing a game like Smash Bros., where Mario, Link, Pikachu, and Kirby fight in Smashville. It's an amazing thing that a game like Smash Bros. even exists, and that's why I love it in all of its forms.

And with that, I believe I'll just stop discussing it completely. Wheeeeeeeeee.

Did anyone post here that NPC Pikmin 2 is coming to NA? Because I just found out, and I'm kind of exploding with happiness.

 

[Lukingordex]

Why is Wizzy's post glowing like that

[glow]Like that?[/glow]

 

[Wizzrobe]

Why is Wizzy's post glowing like that

At the beginning of what you say, put [.glow] and the end of what you say, put [./glow]

(and yes put the slash in there the second time) (AND IGNORE THE PERIOIDS I PUT NEXT TO THE GLOW WORDS)

 

[Wizzrobe]

[glow]Like that?[/glow]

Yes like that

EDIT: oops so sorry for DB wasnt thinking straight.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

At the beginning of what you say, put [glow] and the end of what you say, put [/ glow]

(and yes put the slash in there the second time)

Fixed for ya. And dude you never said "almost" which is why I said you were making overgeneralizations. I still think you are minimalizing camping in melee but since I don't play competitive melee I can't back it up with any personal experience.

So John are you saying judgement would a "5" 90% percent of the time always dealing let's say 16 dmg and a constant kb growth with regular base kb while the other 10% it would be a "9" with let's say 30 dmg and a huge base kb? Because at first it sounded like you wanted to keep all the numbers but make it a reliable move which contradicts itself.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

[glow]The reason that Brawl tourneys are more frequent than Melee tourneys, is because MELEE IS 10 YEARS OLD. Brawl is a more recent game and a lot of Brawl players have barely even played Melee. You have got to remember how Old Melee is.

I didn't take it into account. Why? It's irrelevant completely. Age is not taken into account as long as Melee, which apparently has a huge amount of competitive popularity... is still played quite a lot. Players play both. In fact, at the most, it slightly boosts how much Brawl is played, but not on a huge scale. GameCubes and Melee are extremely cheap. Wiis were very hard to find for quite a long time. There's a reason it still has a huge amount of playtime over Brawl. There's one factor you forgot: Characters. Some people prefer Melee's Roster and not much of Brawl's. I'm one of those people. There's also easy of using the Action Replay for Melee for fun.

And I DIDN't say that people will only enjoy it casually. What I said was that the only way people will enjoy Brawl more than Melee is if they are playing it casually. (Due to more characters etc.) I DID NOT say that it couldn't be enjoyed played competitively.Almost everybody will go for Melee over Brawl if they want to play Smash competitively if they fully understand each game due to Melee's competitive nature.[/glow]

No, they won't. At all. Many people enjoy completely different aspects. Brawl competitively has a ton of depth and things that Melee doesn't. And vice versa. They're different games, with some similar basic concepts, but it is quite different still. Same with the first game.

 

[---]

Melee vs Brawl? Haven't had one of those discussions here in a long time.

64 wins hands down.

But yeah, I perfer Brawl to Melee. I just like the pacing of Brawl more for the most part, and the feel of the characters as well. The amount of ATs and heavy wavedashing competitive Melee requires just isn't for me, I just don't have the finger strenght (one of the reasons I suck at Capcom fighters). I do think that Melee had been stages overall, less creative, but better.