New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Metal Overlord]

His Homing Attack wasn't that good, IMO

I do semi-enjoy playing as him, though, despite how annoying he can be

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Flailing around at the speed of sound!

Got places to blow, gotta do BIBAREL ROLL!

I'm though maining Sonic in Project M. Gotta love those tweaks and fixes they made to him. Homing Attack really hits the enemy with accuracy, Sonic Battle-attacks...

 

[Johnknight1]

Pretty much Brawl's biggest problem was the game play. If Brawl was balanced (with game play balance of offense and defense and characters balance), we wouldn't be complaining about so many characters so often.

If the Brawl's game play was more complex, especially offensively with more offensive options (with a much smaller learning curve than Melee, obviously), and the character balance wasn't dreadful (seriously, mains of the same 3 characters win all the big tournaments, vs over half a dozen in Melee), and a better offense vs. defense balance (where the offense of most mid and low tier characters is no longer non-existent), then Brawl would be held in much higher regard by everyone, including Sakurai!

Also, tripping. Seriously, tripping sums up some parts of Brawl perfectly. Because quite frankly, even though Brawl is a great game, it has some really random and stupid stuff features that should have never exist.

@ Horsetail
I'm going to a tournament tomorrow. One or more of the guys who made Project M will be there, and there will be a few setups with Project M. I can't wait to play it!

 

[Big-Cat]

Oh, I was excited too, but once I played him, he didn't feel right. He moved too fast in a slow game that he didn't feel like a wild horse waiting to be tamed but like butter. Then there's the fact that he was just rather boring.

And I remember playing Fox and Peach, two of my favorites in Melee, in Brawl. Fox sank more than I do in water and Peach's double jump nerf was absolute WTFery.

 

[Arcadenik]

And I remember playing Fox and Peach, two of my favorites in Melee, in Brawl. Fox sank more than I do in water and Peach's double jump nerf was absolute WTFery.

Actually, Peach's nerfed double jump is more accurate to how her floating jump was like in SMB2. I think her Melee double jump was one of the reasons why she was placed so high on the tier list.

 

[Johnknight1]

Yeah, Fox (my Melee main) is ridiculously boring in Brawl IMO. Peach (who I played in Melee when Brawl came out) was just awful to play as (although she has developed into a so-so character tier-wise). Still, these issues happened with every non-high tier character (and characters on the very top of the mid-tier) basically.

And I agree with you on Sonic Kuma. Sonic was a fast guy in a slow game. The game made Sonic slow. Sonic isn't much faster than twice as slow as Captain Falcon in Melee.

Sonic in my opinion should be at least 50% faster than Captain Falcon in Melee in the next smash bros games, regardless of the forthcoming Super Smash Bros. games' speeds.

@ Arc
Peach's jump may be more accurate to Super Mario Bros. 2 in Brawl, but her Melee jump helped give her a "true strength" which she really needed/could have used in Brawl!

 

[Big-Cat]

Hey, John, I got a question for you. So far, we have random outcomes for Peach's turnips, D3's Waddle Dee Toss, Green Missile, and Judgment. You can't plan much of a strategy around these either like you can in TCGs and Poker.

Do you think anything should be done about them to make them consistent?

 

[Shorts]

I do semi-enjoy playing as him, though, despite how annoying he can be

Him and Pit, actually ANNOY me. Not even when they spam, their voices piss me off.

****

 

[Shorts]

I double post for FUN.

 

[Johnknight1]

@ Shorts
I gotta agree with you on Pit. If I had to cut a character from Brawl, it would be Pit (or Meta Knight).

Hey, John, I got a question for you. So far, we have random outcomes for Peach's turnips, D3's Waddle Dee Toss, Green Missile, and Judgment. You can't plan much of a strategy around these either like you can in TCGs and Poker.

Do you think anything should be done about them to make them consistent?

I like this random element, because it requires you to think more (in regards to Peach's turnips). The bombs are very rare, but still, you can catch them if you time it right. The beam swords aren't that strong; they just have a lot of range. They require a lot of great defensive play to get around, and the other player can get that weapon to use it themselves if they play smart enough and win some skirmishes again a Peach with a beam sword.

As for King Dedede, I gotta say pretty much the same thing. I also like how he throws different items, such as pitfalls.

I also like the frequency of both random events. It is rare enough to not really effect too many games, but occurs just enough to game plan and prepare for. If a player game plans and prepares for these situations, really they aren't a big deal. If they game plan enough and are the better player, it can be an advantage against the Peach player. Plus the items disappear after a while (from a drop or death of a character holding the item), so the equitable weapons can't be abused for the whole match unless 1 player sucks!

Game and Watch's Judgment is a useless move. However, if it was a viable attack, I would change how it works. I do like the different effects like the random falling healing items, the freezing (although I wish it wasn't as dramatic), and the fire effect, but some of them need to be weakened. Again, the move needs to be viable before anything needs to be done about it. It is way too slow.

Does that answer your questions Kuma=???

 

[Shorts]

I don't want Pit cut, I just think he's a jerk.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Is there any way we can change Mr. Game and Watch's current FS or at least make it better? 'Cause it's *** in Brawl

 

[GiantBreadbug]

lol @ the passive-aggressive conversation about how Brawl sucked.

Hi, I play games with my friends simply for the fun of playing games and love Brawl. I guess that puts me in a stupid minority.

Herp derp, I don't know how to Smash Bros. because I disregard tiers, don't play in tournaments, and have no gripes with how Brawl plays.

Sorry for that, but I'm suffocating in here.

 

[SmashChu]

You know, this really has nothing to do with what John and I were discussing last night. The only reason Slime got brought up is because we were discussing the role of mascots in both the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest series. Professor Layton was only brought up as a response and to make a point. :|

Oh, OK. Never mind then.

Was not doing what=??? Creating a game that isn't slow, boring, and has stupid crap like tripping=??? Like seriously, what the hell is with random tripping and the stalling-centered battles=??? Nobody likes it. You know competitive smashers aren't the only ones to complain about that.

Casual smashers do it, too, not just with their voices, but their wallets. Every time I got to a video game retailers, I see so many used copies of Brawl. I never saw anywhere the number of used copies of Melee. I saw a local Game Stop had about 20 used copies of Brawl. I've never seen that many used copies of Melee at that store or any store in my life.

At least the things done in the Project M mod make sense. What was the clear purpose of Brawl=??? It should have been to top Melee, and yet many casual and competitive players recognize Melee as better. Heck, the guy who created the series still sees it that way. Brawl is a mess of the game, developed and balanced around the SSE.

Project M sucks because it tries to turn a non competitive game into a competitive one. Smash's success is because it tried not to do what Project M is doing. It's trying to make a game anyone can play. As a mod, Project M is fine, but it will not work for the actual game. Fewer people would play it.

What you said is nice and all, but let's pull some data up and see what we got.
First, let's look at it's sales

Now, is it retaining it's value? Amazon is selling it for 44.99 after a markdown. Seeing as I found Gears of War 3 for $33, I think we can say the game holds it's value.
Lastly, are people playing it? Here some data on how much it's played. This is 2010 and that's the most recent data I can find, but you can see people still played it A LOT over a year after release.

As for why you are seeing more used copies. It's either your store has a lot of because the game sold a lot there are naturally more used copies. But otherwise, this whole thing your seeing is all in your head.

 

[Johnknight1]

@ Shorts
I want the way Pit plays to get cut. Seriously, his play style is annoying. If you've ever played a competitive Pit player, you would know my anger. All they do is run, fire arrows, spam an attack here and there, camp, shield, and basically stall the whole match away.

Also, most Pit mains. Everything negative said about Melee Peach mains pre-Brawl should be applied to Pit mains, and heightened by 100 times. And I'm not talking about the way they play, but how they act. If a competitive Brawl player is annoying, chances are they main Pit!!!

 

[Arcadenik]

I don't want Pit cut, I just think he's a jerk.

Based on Brawl or Uprising?

Either way, I was already a fan of the old Kid Icarus games before Pit was in Brawl... but after Uprising, I am more into the series than before. I love Pit and his series so much that I want both Palutena and Medusa in Smash 4 and then add Magnus in Smash 5.

 

[Metal Mania1321]

[COLLAPSE="Wolf"]B: Desperado Laser
Wolf can charge his laser like Donkey Kong's punch. When he tries to use the laser which are small in size, he can aim his laser any where and the lasers go full screen and have hit stun. Depending on how long he charges, he can use anywhere between one and three lasers at one time.

Side B: Beast Rush
Wolf's own take on Fox Illusion. Wolf launches himself forward with multiple hits going through the opponent. This has the option of going upward, forward, or downward, and the attack can be chained up to three times on hit and you can continue with a combo following the chain.

Up B: Mondelicht
Wolf does an uppercut motion like Mario and ends with a kick that has high vertical knockback.

Down B: Claw Swipe
Wolf swipes his claws upward. Aside from being used as a melee attack, this attack also reflects all projectiles. Physical projectiles like Samus' missile are simply stuffed.[/COLLAPSE]

A couple pages back, I remember people discussing a new Final Smash for Wolf, but they didn't come up with anything. Why not make his new Final Smash call in the rest of Star Wolf.
The background turns black, except for a large full moon (because he is a wolf, obviously) and some assorted stars. Suddenly, Wolf lets out a howl, and Team Star Wolf decends down from the cosmos, armed with their Wolfens, to rain down death to Wolf's adversaries.

Leon can shoot the standard twin lasers from his Wolfen, while Panther can fire Smart Bombs (which cannot harm Wolf) from his Wolfen. Additionally, both pilots are capable of doing barrel rolls, which can damage foes, and if their damage is high enough, send them flying in a random direction. Also if Wolf is falling off of a ledge, one of the Wolfen pilots will swoop down and perform a barrel roll, which will send Wolf back on stage. This lasts for aabout 15 seconds before ending. Oh yeah, and for an added touch, the Star Wolf theme song plays during his Final Smash.

By the way, I'm still looking for help for the last level of FE: Shadow Dragon, if anybodys interested....

 

[Johnknight1]

Project M sucks because it tries to turn a non competitive game into a competitive one. Smash's success is because it tried not to do what Project M is doing. It's trying to make a game anyone can play. As a mod, Project M is fine, but it will not work for the actual game. Fewer people would play it.

Melee is a competitively viable game, yet it is still casual friendly. Stop talking like it has to be 1 way or another. Absolutes shouldn't exist in Smash, or really anything. What are you gonna say next, the Democratic Party or Republican Party are always right=??? Smash should be made with everyone in mind, for everyone. That would sell the most copies.

As for Project M, it's fans trying to make Brawl like Melee and Smash 64, and are make the characters balanced to where half the roster isn't garbage. What's wrong with that=???

And your talk about sales is silly because you overlook 2 things with the rest of your post.
1. You are comparing Gears of War 3 to Brawl. Each of the Gears of War games have been released about 3 years apart from one another. Melee and Brawl were released 6 years apart form each other. If Gears of War titles were sold further apart from 1 another like Melee and Brawl.

3. Also, if the Gears of War series was more unique games genre-wise (Smash is a mix of party games, platform games, and fighting games) with minimal genre "competition" (seriously, Smash has no competition in its' genre until maybe this Sony All-Star game), then it would also retain its' value like Brawl. There are no games like Brawl on the Wii.

2. We don't have any hourly data on Melee. I know I've put in well over 3,000 hours on Melee. I've put about 1,000 hours into Brawl. Either way, that's a lot of time.

 

[Wizzrobe]

A couple pages back, I remember people discussing a new Final Smash for Wolf, but they didn't come up with anything. Why not make his new Final Smash call in the rest of Star Wolf.
The background turns black, except for a large full moon (because he is a wolf, obviously) and some assorted stars. Suddenly, Wolf lets out a howl, and Team Star Wolf decends down from the cosmos, armed with their Wolfens, to rain down death to Wolf's adversaries.

Leon can shoot the standard twin lasers from his Wolfen, while Panther can fire Smart Bombs (which cannot harm Wolf) from his Wolfen. Additionally, both pilots are capable of doing barrel rolls, which can damage foes, and if their damage is high enough, send them flying in a random direction. Also if Wolf is falling off of a ledge, one of the Wolfen pilots will swoop down and perform a barrel roll, which will send Wolf back on stage. This lasts for aabout 15 seconds before ending. Oh yeah, and for an added touch, the Star Wolf theme song plays during his Final Smash.

By the way, I'm still looking for help for the last level of FE: Shadow Dragon, if anybodys interested....

I actually suggested his FS be the Wolfen. But I agree that his FS should be what your idea was. It would be a lot different from the other StarFox character FS's so it would work out well.

 

[Johnknight1]

@ Metal Mania
I believe a Wolfen ship or Team Star Wolf raid were originally planned for Wolf's Final Smash. There's some data of it.

Also, there is data and graphical proof that Falco's Final Smash may have been planned to be an Arwing. I think some people have even dug up some data on it.

 

[Linkshot]

(seriously, Smash has no competition in its' genre until maybe this Sony All-Star game)

Turtles Smash Up

 

[Metal Overlord]

Oh god, not Melee vs Brawl again

Can't we all just talk about something else like what our favorite themes are from each game

 

[Wizzrobe]

[glow]I doubt The Sony all star smash copy will ever be as popular as Smash is.[/glow]

 

[Smooth Criminal]

lol @ the passive-aggressive conversation about how Brawl sucked.

Hi, I play games with my friends simply for the fun of playing games and love Brawl. I guess that puts me in a stupid minority.

Herp derp, I don't know how to Smash Bros. because I disregard tiers, don't play in tournaments, and have no gripes with how Brawl plays.

Sorry for that, but I'm suffocating in here.

Then keep choking.

Or, instead of being a crybaby, you can politely disagree and state why Brawl was great to you. Nobody here is going to hate you for it. Maybe it'll foster healthy discussion and you'll find that you might agree on a point or two.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Johnknight1]

Turtles Smash Up

1. It's made by the same company (Game Arts) without any (creative) direction.
2. It plays way too much like a platform game.
3. It's no competition. It is mediocre at best.
4. It's repetitive. I played it at an after party of a tournament once, and it got boring quick. And I wasn't the only 1 who got bored of it quick, either.
5. The camera is weird. It's like focused on way too much of the stage.

@ Wizzrobe
It isn't, but it may rival Smash in terms of how well it is received.

 

[Wizzrobe]

1. It's made by the same company (Game Arts) without any (creative) direction.
2. It plays way too much like a platform game.
3. It's no competition. It is mediocre at best.
4. It's repetitive. I played it at an after party of a tournament once, and it got boring quick. And I wasn't the only 1 who got bored of it quick, either.
5. The camera is weird. It's like focused on way too much of the stage.

It might be able to be played competitively. It's just that nobody has really discovered any techniques yet.( I didn't even know the game came out btw)

 

[Johnknight1]

@ Wizzrobe
I wasn't thinking of Turtles Smash Up as a competitive game. Rather, as a casual 1st time player of it, I didn't find a good reason to pick it up again.

@ Smooth Criminal
Thank you. People get all butt hurt when I speak of my criticisms of Brawl or aspects of Brawl. I criticize aspects of Smash 64 and Melee too, yet no one seems to notice or care. I don't do this to "insult" those games, but to help paint a picture of what I think a "more perfect" Smash Bros. game would be. I see a lot of positives and negatives in each game.

After all if nothing was criticized, nothing would get better.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Then keep choking.

Or, instead of being a crybaby, you can politely disagree and state why Brawl was great to you. Nobody here is going to hate you for it. Maybe it'll foster healthy discussion and you'll find that you might agree on a point or two.

Smooth Criminal

Been there, done that.

Actually, I've tried doing that several times here. Acting cordial gets me nowhere, and opinions here that go against the majority are regarded as garbage. And judging by your tone, you wouldn't be inviting of healthy discussion anyways, considering I'm a crybaby after one post.

My post count doesn't extend past 500, but I'm no fool. This isn't the place to appeal my opinion. I found that out lots of times prior to now.

And John, you called "half of Brawl's roster" "garbage."
That's cool that you think that way, but don't be surprised if there's butthurt when you throw that statement around like it's a fact. Which you do.

 

[SmashChu]

Oh John, you so silly.

Melee is a competitively viable game, yet it is still casual friendly. Stop talking like it has to be 1 way or another. Absolutes shouldn't exist in Smash, or really anything. What are you gonna say next, the Democratic Party or Republican Party are always right=??? Smash should be made with everyone in mind, for everyone. That would sell the most copies.

What I'm saying is that trying to be competitive doesn't work because you alienate everyone else. Look at all the competitive games out there. They always came out of a really popular game that wasn't trying to be "viable."
Halo? Check
Starcraft? Check
Street Fighter? Check
Smash Brothers? Check

But what happens when they try to be competitive. We know the story with fighting games,. how the genre has been rather weak. Most 2D fighting games do poorly and Capcom has yet to beat out SF2. Starcraft 2 isn't as big as Starcraft 1. Halo Reach did worse than the others. Basically, it never works. My stance also hold true because
1)Brawl is the best selling fighting game and it tired to remove itself from competitive Smash as much as it could
2)Melee was the worst selling Smash game in Japan. Guess which one is #1?

As for Project M, it's fans trying to make Brawl like Melee and Smash 64, and are make the characters balanced to where half the roster isn't garbage. What's wrong with that=???

There is nothing wrong with that, as a mod. Should Smash 4 take notes. No.

And your talk about sales is silly because you overlook 2 things with the rest of your post.
1. You are comparing Gears of War 3 to Brawl. Each of the Gears of War games have been released about 3 years apart from one another. Melee and Brawl were released 6 years apart form each other. If Gears of War titles were sold further apart from 1 another like Melee and Brawl.

Fine, let's look at other games than
360 Games
PS3 Games
And Mario Galaxy for kicks and giggles


Notice how the trend is that they all are selling for less than Brawl. Brawl has obviously held it's value.

3. Also, if the Gears of War series was more unique games genre-wise (Smash is a mix of party games, platform games, and fighting games) with minimal genre "competition" (seriously, Smash has no competition in its' genre until maybe this Sony All-Star game), then it would also retain its' value like Brawl. There are literally no games like Brawl on the Wii.

Games don't work like that. I don't say "There is no Smash like game so I have to get Smash." Smash would compete with other multiplayer games like Mario Kart. The customer doesn't specificity want a Smash brothers like title. They want something to play with their friends. Seeing as how well Brawl has done, I can say it did that job well.

2. We don't have any hourly data on Melee. I know I've put in over 3,000 hours on Melee.

So if there is no hours, I can't call Brawl better than Melee. Of course, there is the fact that Brawl sold better than Melee worldwide. Obviously, they did it right with Brawl.

 

[Hoots]

[glow]I doubt The Sony all star smash copy will ever be as popular as Smash is.[/glow]

Of course not. The stable of Sony characters is so absolutely lame, only fanboys will actually play it. Fat Princess? Really?

Anyways, Breadbug. I loved Brawl and I prefer it to Melee. Not only does a bigger roster immediately trump a smaller one, but I thought the pacing was great. It allowed for more strategic decisions as opposed to just memorizing the AT's and having insane reflexes. Granted, I played the **** out of Melee and I loved it, but I don't think I could ever go back to playing it.

 

[Johnknight1]

Stop getting offended and criticize each Smash game Giant and say what you think a "[more] perfect" smash bros game would be like!

 

[Wizzrobe]

@ Wizzrobe
I wasn't thinking of Turtles Smash Up as a competitive game. Rather, as a casual 1st time player of it, I didn't find a good reason to pick it up again.


Oh, I thought you meant Sony all star. I thought the Turtles Upsmash was some joke comment. Didn't realize it was a game. Lol, I'm messed up

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Been there, done that.

Actually, I've tried doing that several times here. Acting cordial gets me nowhere, and opinions here that go against the majority are regarded as garbage. And judging by your tone, you wouldn't be inviting of healthy discussion anyways, considering I'm a crybaby after one post.

My post count doesn't extend past 500, but I'm no fool. This isn't the place to appeal my opinion. I found that out lots of times prior to now.

Clearly you're unwanted. Let me tell you.

Quit mucking up the thread with your self-deprecation and actually discuss things. Plenty of people here are casual players like yourself and they seem to get along just fine.


Smooth Criminal

 

[Wizzrobe]

Clearly you're unwanted. Let me tell you.

Quit mucking up the thread with your self-deprecation and actually discuss things. Plenty of people here are just casual players like yourself and they seem to get along just fine.

Smooth Criminal

[glow]That was unnecessary, he is not unwanted. Obviously your in a bad mood.[/glow]

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I was being facetious, Wizz. I should've put a or something to denote that I was.

Sorry.

To clarify: Your presence is well and fine, but your attitude is a little crappy.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Big-Cat]

Does that answer your questions Kuma=???

Yeah, but I would personally like it where these had more control in their outcomes. Dedede's real easy to make consistent. Green Missile Misfire can be turned into an EX Green Missile. Judgment is stupid and I'd like to see something else. Then again, I find G+W to be boring.

For Peach, I'm wondering if a "charge" to pluck the stronger turnips could work too.

Turtles Smash Up

To be more specific, John's talking about a lack of quality competition. If the competition is ****ty, you have nothing to worry about.

[glow]I doubt The Sony all star smash copy will ever be as popular as Smash is.[/glow]

Sales wise? Maybe. The important question is if the Sony brawler will be any good.

 

[Wizzrobe]

I was being facetious, Wizz. I should've put a or something to denote that I was.

Sorry.

To clarify: Your presence is well and fine, but your attitude is a little crappy.

Smooth Criminal

I swear, It is literally impossible for me to detect sarcasm on the internet. It gets me every time.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Clearly you're unwanted. Let me tell you.

Quit mucking up the thread with your self-deprecation and actually discuss things. Plenty of people here are casual players like yourself and they seem to get along just fine.


Smooth Criminal

Wooooooah woah woah. Me and this thread get along just fine. I haven't been here forever, but I have been here long enough to know that I like everyone here; Melee vs. Brawl is just a point of contingency. I civilly discuss things quite often, and avoid unnecessary, drawn-out conflict whenever possible.

I don't know what the deal is here, but I was expressing frustration about the topic, nothing more. There's no need for me to continue, since what will happen (a needless back and forth) is bad for the thread. I just don't appreciate opinions being tossed about as fact, and that's what I saw happening.

Okay, the end.

@John I will absolutely do that, but later. For now, *dramatic music* DINNER AWAITS.

 

[Shorts]

I hate that we aren't getting a SC esque adventure mode... so sad. I pretty much EXPECT SSE2 at this point... shame.

I would have loved to see a more personalized Melee Adventure mode.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I thought all three Smashes were excellent.

While I don't enjoy Brawl all that much, to call it a bad game is poppycock.

Even if I prefer Quest 64 over it. But that's beside the point.

Also, the Sony "Smash Bros." thing... I think I'll pick it up and see how it is. Frankly, the better idea is to consider it its own Crossover, and not related to SSB at all.

@Wizzrobe: It's easier to report that crap. There is no excuse for being rude, and it's better to not reply.