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New Smash Bros for WiiU

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Red(SP)

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Also, the only thing I have to disagree with on Saturn Valley's edges

That should be fixed to prevent infinites.

My Birthdays August 3rd :D

And I'm not a misfit :( I'm simply just trying to learn some smash brah's

EDIT: WAY TO PREVENT INFINITES = GRAB BREAK

This is needed, really, chain grabs are annoying, if you're grabbed within like 3 seconds of another grab, the character should have the chance for a grab break if times right.
Chain grabbing should be a part of a metagame which the character doesn't have much to go on, (Sheik is kinda one of those characters to begin with) but I agree with your stand on being able to counter such.

And btw, have you've seen the SSF2 design for Saturn Valley?
 

BlueberrySyrup

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I think so, if I saw the right video.

That's why we need grab release and less grab reliant characters.
Grab breaking would be great for balance, and should be applied imo.
 

Oasis_S

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Seems like chain grabs would be one of the more obvious things for Sakurai to try and avoid allowing? They're pretty stupid.
 

Shorts

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Seems like chain grabs would be one of the more obvious things for Sakurai to try and avoid allowing? They're pretty stupid.
You just got butt****ed by your friend in Melee who used IC's.

You be so salty and crunchy and in pain. Or whatever people say.
 

Big-Cat

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EDIT: WAY TO PREVENT INFINITES = GRAB BREAK

This is needed, really, chain grabs are annoying, if you're grabbed within like 3 seconds of another grab, the character should have the chance for a grab break if times right.
Even though I want grab breaks as much as the next person(seriously, why has this yet to be put in?) I'd like to see chain grabs become part of a larger mixup game instead of the derp it is now. That's why Dedede has a tech chasing tech grab in Balanced Brawl. I also made up a way that the Ice Climbers have a mixup setup following a grab that's different.

And what did you think of the videos I posted? Kumatora's pretty easy to visualize with Viper's moveset with a couple of modifications and a fourth special (Viper only has three).

@Blueberry
Grapplers are fine so long as it's not derpy.
 

Shorts

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KUMA, have you heard of Red Earth? Well, have you heard of Tessa from Red Earth? Check some vids of her, and tell me what you think of her overall playstyle. I think it could fit well into Smash.

I believe she was playable in CvSnk, one of them. As well as Pocket Fighters
 

BlueberrySyrup

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I think chain grabbing should somewhat be used by certain characters until a certain %.

Limit to 2-3 grabs then get a grab break, honestly chain grabbing is probably frowned upon by many players and is also one of the worst things that are added to games.

And what do you mean chaingrabs make for some good technique? Also can you repost vipers video?

Chain grabs like Falco > Death should def. be gone, D3's infinites, all chaingrabs are bad if you can't get out of them, this needs to be dealt with. Some chaingrabs I understand, but other than that NO, abusing them should be dealt with, there needs to be a way this is somehwat, Idk how to say it.
 

Oasis_S

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You just got butt****ed by your friend in Melee who used IC's.

You be so salty and crunchy and in pain. Or whatever people say.
How could you remember that? >:

You could probably limit the ability to chain grab. Just wouldn't be able to do it after so many times.
 

BlueberrySyrup

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Yeah, that'd what I mean... At least be able to tech out of it unlike Marth vs. Ness/Lucas and D3's infinite on like half the cast.

Chaingrabs are bad unless they actually lead up into a true combo out of about 3 moves, other than that if it takes no practice or anything and can't be escaped it shouldn't be in game.

Grab breaks > Prevent.
 

Sephirothxxx

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I think chain grabbing should somewhat be used by certain characters until a certain %.

Limit to 2-3 grabs then get a grab break, honestly chain grabbing is probably frowned upon by many players and is also one of the worst things that are added to games.

And what do you mean chaingrabs make for some good technique? Also can you repost vipers video?

Chain grabs like Falco > Death should def. be gone, D3's infinites, all chaingrabs are bad if you can't get out of them, this needs to be dealt with. Some chaingrabs I understand, but other than that NO, abusing them should be dealt with, there needs to be a way this is somehwat, Idk how to say it.
I see what you are getting at, and what I meant by the technique is its used a LOT by pro smashers. Of course I probably didnt word that post very well, after all I am a stupid misfit. :troll: But anyway, yeah I think it actually would be a good idea to limit the chaingrabs at a certain percentage though that sounds weird at first. It would give people a chance to actually attack instead of getting frustrated at the constant chaingrabber.
 

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How could you remember that? >:

You could probably limit the ability to chain grab. Just wouldn't be able to do it after so many times.
Oh Oasis, you underestimate Shorts and his abilities.

I can also fly.
 

Big-Cat

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What would be cool is if they could be like King's in Tekken (minus the crazy *** inputs) where he does up to three damaging grabs in a row so long as he guesses right. But yeah, chain grabs and loops should be things that the developers should actively seek to eliminate. Otherwise, the game centers around them which is bad.

Also, here's the Viper video, from EVO 2011.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Spjh6A1bsyo#t=76s

I picture Kumatora's PK Fire, though, being more like this than Viper's Burning Kick.
 

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Thanks for posting that, I'll watch it now.

Also, if they don't eliminate it, I'm glad Nintendo can now PATCH games and fix this I'd hope.

People that rely on chaingrab to death just annoy me, constantly jabbing to grab, or just grabbing in general, Falco's are rarely ever fun to fight for me.

EDIT: Kuma could be similar to that, but I have to say she's not very physical, she's more of a spaced character who's attack power up close is extremely low. But your idea is good.
 

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Here's the moveset I made for her a while back.
[COLLAPSE="Kumatora Moveset"]
B: PK Fire
Kumatora does a motion with her fists comparable to Mai Shiranui's Ryuuenbu. This can be done in the air where Kumatora can alter her trajectory. Hold down on usage to cancel her momentum. Press B on startup to use as a feint.

Side B: PK Freeze
Her projectile, but not exactly a projectile. This attack is essentially a far range, disjointed poking move.

Down B: PK Ground

Kumatora does a punch to the ground and causes a seismo wave to appear in front of her, acting as a grounded projectile. The projectile is quick moving, about the speed of Falco's laser, and travels accross the entire stage until it hits an edge. This move can be feinted on startup. When the attack lands, the opponent is knocked up, left open to a juggle combo. Recovery is not very nice when whiffed.

Up B: PK Thunder
A different take on PK Thunder than in the past. Kumatora snaps her fingers and a thundercloud is formed. Press up B again to activate the lightning strike. When the lightning hits Kumatora, she essentially has a controllable PK Thunder 2. To bypass the placement, hold B as Kumatora does the snapping.

Playstyle:
Kumatora is an unpredictable character with excellent jumps and many options to attack from all sorts of angles. Her PK Ground is vital in her playstyle so as to counter camping and/or to combo into her more damaging combos. PK Fire is to deal damage for tech chases, PK Ground followups, or to get a feel for the opponent. PK Freeze is her best poke when needing to play it safe. PK Thunder is a mine of a tool and a much improved PK Thunder from past games.

She has a fairly safe aerial game, but it's also low reward as well. Her big sources of damage come from her high risk, high reward ground game.

Sources of inspiration: C. Viper from Street Fighter IV with elements of Mai (animation for PK Fire), Yuri (PK Freeze), and Benimaru (PK Thunder) from King of Fighters.[/COLLAPSE]
 

Opossum

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So. I won't touch the Pokemon news, it's all said and done already. However, since we have new people here, I want to ask them...


What do you guys think of Muddy Mole for Smash 4?
 

Sephirothxxx

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Kuma I love how you imagine Kumatora's PK Fire. Thats pretty awesome.

Now that I think about it, it would be great to have Kumatora in the next smash. I greatly hope either her or ninten get in.
 

BlueberrySyrup

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Duster would be interesting as well with his thief tools though, and his limping leg~

Masked Man would have the sword and everything, and his Final Smash would be Tane Tane Island where everyones controls get messed up and he's free to go around being able to smash them while they only hurt themselves.

Muddy Mole I'm gonna search, so I'll tell you in a bit

EDIT: Seems liek an assist trophy, playable maybe....

Also masked man would have a Canon, and a lot of things, jetpack, blah blah you name it.
 

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Hey what about Poo being in the next smash? I mean he's got the martial arts and all so I don't see why he wouldn't work if you look at what he was made for.
 

BlueberrySyrup

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He might be cool as well, I'd rather see Poo as an assist trophy than Lil' Mac ._.

Also, tripping SHOULD STAY.

BUT I'm against random tripping, attacks like Lucas' down A should trip someone to combo off of

But random running and tripping should be taken out.

Also, attacks like Snakes knee to the face (Broken anyways) shouldn't trip, it's stupid and Diddy Kong imo should be nerf'd with his nana's, unavoidable attacks w/e it's annoying.
 

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Muddy Mole I'm gonna search, so I'll tell you in a bit

EDIT: Seems liek an assist trophy, playable maybe....
Just sit back...long explanation coming through...


Who is he? Can it be?

He hasn't been seen in 15 years.

He's defeated a Kangaroo, the Sun, a 100-ton Weight, a Giant Hedgehog, a Plumber, two Sumo Bros, a Snowman, and an Evil Farmer.

He's Muddy Mole.

Background

Now, Muddy Mole, for those of you who don't know, comes from a charming little Game Boy game called Mole Mania. Mole Mania was basically a Puzzle-Adventure Game where Muddy threw iron balls at gates to traverse the land looking for his family members, who were stolen by the evil farmer, Jinbe.

Now, Mole Mania got pretty good reviews, but it faded into obscurity once Pokemon came out and dominated the Game Boy market. Since then, Muddy Mole has yet to make any other game appearances.

Why Muddy Fits the Bill as a Smash Character:

Now, ever since Melee, Sakurai has added retro characters that people would either remember from the good ol' days, or scratch their heads at, going, "Who is this?"

In Melee, he added the Ice Climbers, and in Brawl, he added Pit (at the time he was retro, he's obviously not anymore due to Uprising.).

Now, Sakurai has stated in an interview (still trying to locate this one...) that character inclusion must follow 4 basic guidelines...

1. The character's inclusion must make people want to play the game.

2. The character must be unique.

3. The character must fit into the style of Super Smash Bros.

4. They must contribute to the game balance.
I'm just keeping this here for future reference. Now, Muddy Mole has an ability in Mole Mania that makes him a force to be reckoned with: digging.

This can easily translate well into Smash, which I'll get to later on. No other character can do this, so it is unique.

This may also make people want to play the game, as the new mechanic is bound to have fans.

One interesting fact about Muddy Mole is that he was made by Shigeru Miyamoto, i.e., the same man who made Mario, Link, Donkey Kong, Fox McCloud, and Captain Olimar. I'd say he fits into the style fine.

For the game balance thing, you can easily make Muddy powerful without being overpowered, but I guess Number 4 is the responsibility of the production team.

Now, you may ask as to why Muddy over other retro characters. Well, in Melee, Sakurai dismissed some retro characters: Excite Biker, Balloon Fighter, Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, Sukapon, and Urban Champion, for various reasons ("Unable" to find a way for him to fight on a bike or jump, Wonders what he'll do if his balloons are popped, Couldn't figure out a way for her to fight, too complex, and "boring", per say, respectively.) Many, if not all, of these characters were more popular than the Ice Climbers on the Melee poll. However, Sakurai chose them because he saw them as original due to their Tag-Team style. For this reason, Muddy could be in due to his "unique" style.

To illustrate, I will show my Muddy Mole moveset.

Muddy Mole



A: Right Claw Swipe 2%
AA: Left Claw Swipe 3%
AAA: Alternating claw barrage. 2% per hit
A Side: Muddy does a small punch. Can be performed in quick succession. 8%
A Up: Muddy holds his hands up like a goal post and jumps up. 12%
A Down: Muddy gets low and kicks at the opponent’s feet. 14%
Dash A: Muddy does a leaping somersault forward. 13%

Smash Side: Muddy does a strong headbutt. 18%
Smash Up: Muddy spins upward corkscrewing his claws.22%
Smash Down: Muddy spins low to the ground kicking up a small wave of dirt to both of his sides. 20%

Air A: Muddy does a small midair cartwheel for weak damage. 5%
Forward Air A: Muddy slaps the foe weakly in midair. 4%
Backward Air A: Muddy roundhouse kicks in midair. 7%
Up Air A: Muddy sweeps his claws in an arc. 4%
Down Air A: Muddy kicks the opponent down with both feet. Meteor-Smash. 9%

Grab and Pummel: Muddy grabs the foe and knees them in the torso. 4%
Forward Throw: Muddy kicks the foe ahead of him. 10%
Back Throw: Muddy spins the opponent and throws them back, similar to Mario. 8%
Up Throw: Muddy digs under the foe and hits them with a tack from underneath, sending them upward. 15%
Down Throw: Muddy slams his foe into the ground, kicking up some dirt in the process. 12%

His Neutral B would be the iron ball. Press B once, and it spawns, and stays on the ground in front of you. You can keep it there, and it will act as an unbreakable wall. However, if you press B again when you are close to the ball, you can throw it at your opponent! It will be very slow and not very powerful at first, but if you hold B, Muddy will charge up the throw, increasing the speed, distance, and damage. However, if the opponent hits you during start up, you will drop the ball. The ball will eventually disappear if A.) Too much time passes without you throwing it, or B.) You hit the opponent. Only one Ball can be present at a time per Muddy Mole. It does 15% when pushed forward with no charge, 22% when charged. Going backwards, it does 20% uncharged, and 30% when charged.

His Side B will be the Bomb Roll. This one was a bit of a stretch, seeing as Muddy never actually did this. However, it is creative liberty, I guess. Muddy pulls out a bomb that he uses in his game, and hops on top of it. He then speeds forward on the bomb to ram opponents. It then explodes. Can be a decent horizontal recovery. 15%

His Up B would be the cabbage jump. After Muddy Mole defeats a boss in his games, he saves one of his children, who pop out of a giant cabbage that falls from the sky, and leap up with a corkscrew-like jump. Muddy would essentially do the same. A giant cabbage would surround him, and he'd pop out using a Wario-like Corkscrew. If used in Midair, the cabbage will fall to the ground, potentially doing damage, and possibly a meteor-smash. When used on land, it disappears after use. I guess you can call it a mix between Wario's and Sonic's. 16% with the corkscrew, 10% if the cabbage hits you.

Muddy Mole's Down B would be Burrow. Going underground was key in Muddy Mole's adventures, so naturally Smash should reflect that. He would dig a hole, and go underground. If used on a passable platform, he'd fall through it. While underground, he can move around very fast, but at the expense of not being able to see where he is. By releasing B, he will pop out of the hole, causing minimal damage. However, you only have a three second time frame to stay underground, otherwise you are forcefully removed from the dirt. This would make up for Muddy's lackluster aerial game.

Finally, his Final Smash would be Sundes. Another forum user gave me this idea. Sundes was a sun-based boss in Mole Mania, as the ruler of Level 2. One of his attacks involves him going supernova, so Muddy needed to get out of the way to survive by going underground. Once Muddy has the Smash Ball, he'll adjust his Sunglasses and go underground. Sundes would then appear, and go Supernova, sending a vast fiery wave across the stage. If hit, the opponent will take major damage (50%) and good knockback. It can, however, be avoided by some characters with high or multiple jumps. Muddy will the resurface and continue fighting.


Taunts: Up: He adjusts his sunglasses with a shine and smiles. (With the clichéd *ding* sound of course)
Down: He digs a small hole and pulls out a small cabbage. He proceeds to eat it.
Side: He holds out his paw and extends his claws.

Costumes: Red: Normal color
Blue: Blue neckerchief
Green: Green Neckerchief
Others: Pink, yellow, and black neckerchiefs.

Kirby Hat: Kirby dons a pair of shades and a handkerchief.

Codec Conversation: Snake: Colonel, who's the mole wearing sunglasses?
Colonel: That's Muddy Mole, Snake.
Snake: Never heard of him. He's probably no big threat.
Colonel: Be careful, Snake, Muddy here can do something that no one else here can do. He'll dig right beneath you and hit you from the other side.
Snake: That's pretty cheap, wouldn't you say?
Colonel: Coming from the man who's fighting a mole, while using a ton of explosives...just make sure to watch out, Snake.
Snake: What else is there to watch for?
Colonel: Besides digging, Muddy can also launch giant iron balls. And bombs, too.
Snake: ...Ugh.


Playstyle: Basically, Muddy Mole is your trap user to the extreme. Block off certain spots with the Iron Ball, dig underneath it, and hit the foes on the other side is a pretty good tactic. If time is running out on it, throw it for good damage. Being a mole, Muddy is best on the ground, of course. Many of his smashes and throws are powerful. That being said, if you’re playing Muddy in the air for any reason other than recovery, you’re using him wrong. Muddy is just plain bad in the air. Low fall speed, bad aerials, and semi-lightweight an aerial fighter does not make. All in all, Muddy is an interesting character to play as, and will leave the opponents guessing as to which move he’ll use next.


But wait! There's more! He also provides a good stage concept!

Okay, here goes my first promised attempt at a stage concept:






That's right, a Mole Mania stage for none other than Muddy Mole.

Stage Name: Jinbe's Farm
Stage Icon: A cabbage.

Layout:

__u__-----____J____-----__u__
.........l_______________l.........


Basically, it is a simple stage with walk off edges. Overall, the stage would showcase the Wii U's graphical capabilities, as the foliage, trees, and rolling hills in the background would be in an high definition autumnal setting. Based on my poorly shown layout, the top row of underscores are the basic ground of the stage. However, if you break the plots of tilled land (marked as ---s) then an underground path opens up, connecting the two plots.

Jinbe (Marked as J) realizes what happened after a period of time, and comes to the foreground to fix the plots. If you get in his way, you get minor damage from his hoe.

Cabbages, marked as "u", can be hit with a smash attack to uproot them. If you push them underground, they explode, leaving behind a healing item. This is a reference to Mole Mania's gameplay. This angers Jinbe, who comes to the foreground and chases whoever hurt the cabbage with his hoe. If he hits you, you take 20% damage and a bit of knockback. Jinbe can be defeated pretty easily, however. When defeated, he angrily returns to the background and starts to tend to his other crops in the background.


Music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1GFp23dF6I Mole Mania - Title Theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yf3g_THRw Mole Mania - Forest Theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A80dmIbJhX0 Mole Mania - Beach Theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdTWVfN7ma0 Mole Mania - Snow Theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rlc43JuTdCk Mole Mania - Pipe Theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfDFstihFZY Mole Mania - Boss Battle Theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTMW0XPZM1g Mole Mania - Final Boss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vShfrlIQ6mA Mole Mania - Credits Theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYr0MYUaF-0 Mario Kart Wii - Moo Moo Meadows

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUoswjz79lo Wii Play - Charge! (SSBB Version)





I'd say it's unique enough for Smash.


So, to wrap it up, I'd say Muddy fits the criteria for a retro character, it's just a question now as to whether or not Sakurai chooses him this time around.







*Breathes Deeply* I think I've made my point. I suggest you take the time to look over it, BlueberrySyrup.
 

Opossum

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It had to be done, my friend. This children must learn the ways of Muddy. Only then will they know....


That sounded much more spiritual and profound in my head.

But in all seriousness, I wanted to break the ice after the 13 or so pages of derp.
 

Starphoenix

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Starcraft does that, and it's still the same people up top. A better idea would be no leaderboard.


How dare Saki attack New York City the day before my lady's 25th birthday. He's such a *****.

I think I would rather write my SCHOOLWORK PAPER than fight this subway rock monster again.

But I still love you, Saki. Please be in my Smash.
Just imagine it Oasis. You just got Super Smash Bros. 4, and you decide you want your first match to be a one on one versus Saki and Link, just to try everything out. So you set your stock to four and find the Sin and Punishment stage. Next thing you know you are engaging in an epic blonde headed, sword-to-sword duel with Link. All while this is playing in the background.
 

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Muddy Mole seems like he might fit in.

I'd rather see a character like Lanky Kong, Tiny Kong, or CHUNKY KONG <3

Imagine the face on people when they see them: Oh I remember that character!

Donkey Kong 64 was a great game, and deserves one of those 3 characters, maybe like a Pokemon trainer kinda thing .

Also, Muddy Mole would be cool for another new character, but Lip or some other character would probably fit the cut better, sorry.

Little Mac is my least favorite probably though.
 

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Let's make that Link vs Saki vs Isaac vs Shulk. Blondie swords everywhere.

Also I'm glad I have so many continues at this point, because I'm just jumping around shooting wildly on the last stage before the final boss.
 

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Let's make that Link vs Saki vs Isaac vs Shulk. Blondie swords everywhere.

Also I'm glad I have so many continues at this point, because I'm just jumping around shooting wildly on the last stage before the final boss.
Too many blondes, should just throw in Marth for color.

Oh, the final boss is very interesting.

Do you think he would be a starter? Or is that business just all up in the air.
Probably. Usually new series characters tend to be available from the start.
 

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Let's make that Link vs Saki vs Isaac vs Shulk. Blondie swords everywhere.
The thought of three blue haired swordsmen is starting to sound pretty good right about now.

Also I'm glad I have so many continues at this point, because I'm just jumping around shooting wildly on the last stage before the final boss.
Final stage already? Well you have me beat,
although I did only start yesterday and was gone for most of the day today.
 

Oasis_S

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Do you think he would be a starter? Or is that business just all up in the air.

(Also what stage does that song play on? :3 )

Well, I've already beaten it before. Once playing co-op (in a really weird way) with a friend, and another just by myself. BUT THAT WAS ON EASY. So, now I'm trying to beat normal mode.

THEN I WILL MOVE ON TO HARD. BD
 

Shorts

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Got bored. Like centered things.

Oh SO not my sprites.

Star, is that you? It is. Even if it isn't that man is how I picture you.
 

BlueberrySyrup

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I like that idea, but imo the hair color might need to stay the same.

Masked man in brawl would be amazing but Mother 1 would probably be chosen first over the others
 

Starphoenix

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Do you think he would be a starter? Or is that business just all up in the air.

(Also what stage does that song play on? :3 )

Well, I've already beaten it before. Once playing co-op (in a really weird way) with a friend, and another just by myself. BUT THAT WAS ON EASY. So, now I'm trying to beat normal mode.

THEN I WILL MOVE ON TO HARD. BD
That song, Ally Riskers, plays on the very last stage before the final boss. Probably my favorite from the game.
 

Opossum

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I like the green one Shortie.
 

BlueberrySyrup

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I prefer the original top one all day, every day.

EDIT: It'd be cool to have Lucas in his commander porky's outfit as well.
 

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鉄腕
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@Oasis: Oh that's good to here then, I have more time...

Weird, the Masked Man looks like Mega Man with a sword in one arm...

I like the green one.
 

Conviction

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That fact that people still think Falco's Chaingrab into Dair is death is reason why our average player base is so bad. Sorry but I got to be completely blunt about it.

The fact SDI and DI has been around since 64 and people can't think to apply it to Falco's Dair is beyond silly. I mean come on, GIMR even made a video explaining such a simple but sadly little known fact.

Also to top that off K Prime has made a video on how to break out of grabs almost instantly, so fast to the point we figured out if you do it while Yoshi's still dragging you in with his tongue it freezes the game. If the opponent isn't buffering their throws after their grabs you have no excuse to not be breaking out fast unless you are over 120%.

I hate to be the seen stereotype of competitve but when things like this have constantly been brought up and studied by the Smash Lab it becomes irritating.

Get Better.
 

Starphoenix

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Star, is that you? It is. Even if it isn't that man is how I picture you.
Actually no, I look NOTHING like that. lol

How I look is more boy toyish. Sadly. :\

@Oasis: Oh that's good to here then, I have more time...

Weird, the Masked Man looks like Mega Man with a sword in one arm...

I like the green one.
Actually, he kind of is.
 

Shorts

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Close up, the last two are by far the best. Although I do like the Green one. I don't care for my FIRST ATTEMPT at red. Too bland.

I am never going to make all 11 like I did with Mewtwo, Krystal, and Bandana Dee. So much work...

Actually no, I look NOTHING like that. lol

How I look is more boy toyish. Sadly. :\
You might be 2nd Uguu~

Oasis, ***** got some competition.
 
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