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New Smash Bros for WiiU

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SmashChu

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The problem you have Diddy Kong is you have no argument. You have no ground to stand on. You have yet to bring an argument for Impa and your only justification for her is Sheik's spot. Let me say this, as far as people asking for characters, no one is asking for Impa. Yet you want to have her take the spot of a very well liked character. Post Brawl should show you that most people want the old guys in as well.
How does Sheik's irrelevance make no sence? I've explained all. Read it up.
She's a Smash Brothers veteran. That's all you need. Your arguments are "She hasn't been in a game for a while," and neither has half the cast (Pit ring a bell).

Same here. I feel this more, cause people refuse to see the point I'm making.
Difference is you either have no point, or it's just bad.

Not quite, but now would be a good time cause they seemed to be in doubt already.
Are you Psychic or something. Sakurai hasn't said anything about this doubt of Sheik nor could you infer it. Your making stuff up now.

Not quite, he was pretty lazy with Zelda characters in general I feel. If anything he wanted to use Zelda / Sheik another time cause Zelda had not much to base of from from Twilight Princess. Except for a sword, but Ganon didn't get his either.
So he's lazy now because he brought back an older character (one people liked) Your arguments get worse and worse.

You fail to see that with having said this, Sakurai DOES seem to care about relevance, not "Smash importance" which all of you seem to cling on to for a counter argument to Sheik's replacement. That and 64 had less characters to cut than Brawl has, and Ness being more important than Sheik.
Except he obviously caes about "Smash importance" because HE BROUGHT NESS BACK.

Maybe as another last minute Mario addition, but he preferred new characters (keyword: NEW) over him as Wolf and Toon Link, and long time veteran Jigglypuff. Pichu and the actual OoT / MM Young Link where definitely not planned though.
Young Link was planned and added as seen here. He brought Jigglypuff back, a character who's inclusion was always questionable. I do think he cares about old characters. So again, you have no argument.

You forgot that Sakurai quite early said there would be cuts from the Melee roster. That he tried to bring back Dr.Mario might be a sort of make up act for that. He didn't push it through however, and if we'd get a veteran back it'd be Mewtwo. He had the most data from all cut characters.
OK, let's go back to your argument because you don't even get it any more. Your saying that Impa will replace Sheik, as in Sheik bye bye Impa in. If Dr. Mario was in the data, that means he was planned to come back. In other words, Dr. Mario was no bye bye. He was in. But time made him not be in. Someone is replaced when someone else takes their spot. If the plan was to have both, that means they ae not replaced.

The only character he had no intention of adding was Pichu. Any argument you make about the Brawl cuts is irrelevant becuase of this.

So far, no character has replaced another one. Lucas never replaced Ness. Mewtwo and Roy were to be side by side by Ike and Lucario and it will likely happen in the next game. On that note, people were in outcry when these characters were cut. You'd think they'd like Impa replacing Sheik.

Your argument is based on a thing that never happened.

Cause they're both Sheikah, could both function as part of Zelda's moveset, could INDEED be similar to Sheik in terms of regular A moves and why bother upgrade a character to recent appearance (Zelda) with an outdated character coupled with her (Sheik)?
Let me say it again because you don't get it.

Why does Impa have to replace Sheik. If Impa is so important, why not have Sheik AND Impa. Was does one have to replace the other. I mean, Impa is important enough to warrant her own character right.

Wario your right with, still SOME said what I said.
Lucario and Mewtwo where both wanted, but if you had asked Lucario fans about it, they would indeed pick Lucario as a replacement instead of not having him at all. Which is what likely happened.
Everyone wanted 'Wind Waker' Link to be Luigified based on his Wind Waker appearance. Hence, an UPDATED version. Of coarse relevance had nothing to do with this right :/ New Zelda games should be ignored for Smash of coarse to keep the same (boring) cast with the same (boring) playstyles.
Everyone who actually played Fire Emblem recognized Ike to be the better choice. Here relevance had no role to of coarse?
No one said Wario. That never happened. You are making stuff up.
The rest of the post does nothing for your argument. You don't even know what your point is anymore.

You purposefully left out just about everything, which really makes me doubt if you played the game or not, or just skipped through 87% of the text.

She guided Zelda through all 3 of the first temples, protected her from Ghirahim himself three times, most notable in Earth Temple where she had to interfere cause Link was too slow and of coarse in the cutscene. She knew just about everything on the seal on Demise and how to keep him in there in her old forme, guided Link through everything in her old appearance as well. She was also send by the Goddess herself as her chosen warrior to guide Zelda, a role she kept with for THOUSANDS OF YEARS, she is the first human to know about the Triforce's existance, she literally is responsible for guiding both Link and Zelda, Zelda even both in young and old appearance. Heck, the fact she alone has a double role should be enough actually. Hence she wasn't shown much in the trailers. Was Demise ever shown in trailers? No. Why? Spoilers. The famous cutscene was showed though, and they literally revealed Impa as 'a character you might remember from previous games'.

Thats a lot more than Sheik did in OoT, where she just teaches you songs, and gets beaten by a boss in a cut scene.

That Impa was much in the background doesn't make her less important. Especially as her real role is revealed in the end anyway. If I didn't actually complete SS, I might've agreed. But I did, so I don't.
The bold is why your argument stinks. if your a background character, you are unimportant. This is like saying the stage hand in the play is the lead character.

Most of what you said was background story about Impa, not what she did. You were even wrong as
Impa only helps Zelda in the second and third temple. Even when protecting Zelda, she fails and you come in and save both of them. You are saving them from a chaaracter who has appeared three times before and fought you once. You do not see Impa again until 3 dungeons later.
I say Ghirahim is far more impotaint because he is an antagonist. He is the main villian until towards the end and you fight him three times in the course of the game. He is what is moving the story. The struggle between you and him. Impa offers nothing besides
being old. In fact, if you want Impa, you'd get the old version because that character did something though most of the game. The Impa you want sat in the past for at least a third of it. In that time, you still see Ghirahim.
Now, I'm not saying Ghirahim should be in. I'm making the point that she is not that important. She is very much a side character and not the main one. Zelda, Link and Ghirahim are, which is why they have appeared more in trailers and promotional material. We didn't know Impa existed until near launch.


Sheik being unimportant is an overlooked fact though. Read this entire post btw.
Ness hasn't been important for years. Pit has been dead for over 20 years.

....and Sheik was just in OoT 3D


Says the one who disregards Impa by overlooking just about, everything.
You cling to very piss poor arguments. I'm saying a lot of this as someone who was around during Brawl and saw everyone do the same thing and be wrong. Your argument is trying to stretch Impa's limited importance (even having wrong facts) and trying to say Sheik isn't important when she was just in a game and they are still making figurines for her (and none for Impa, funny huh). Yet, as you say she is SOOOO important, you ignore Ghirahim who was actually moving the story forward and did something. All the while, you argue about how she isn't relevant, making up stuff about Wario and pre Brawl and say Lucas replaces Ness which never happens. All the while you ignore the fact that if Impa was important and could be in the game on her own merit, she wouldn't have to replace Sheik (here's a hint. Seeing as she has to replace Sheik, it means she's not important or a good character and has to be tied to another character who already has and will keep that slot.)
 

Diddy Kong

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Post Brawl most people either wanted Ridley and Mewtwo to be in it, but most where satisfied with the roster. I was to, Brawls roster was the best Smash roster by far, and added in most popular fan choices.

Anyways, to keep it short and simple: no, Impa might not have been more important than Ghirahim, but she still is important. Moreso than Sheik was. And you said yourself, a character that isn't important shouldn't be in.

Also, I don't believe plastic figures say anything about importance, and even with Impa lacking, that most likely means Ghirahim, Groose and just about everything SS related isn't either.

Pit is also a retro character, and there always have been retro characters in Smash since Melee. He now isn't retro anymore, but even if, he was heavily suggested pre Brawl.

Sheik's "game" is a remake, she isn't even a main character in it. Ness is way, WAY more important, had a remake on the GBA. He's the most important Mother character for actually having a half international release. And he's a main character. Also Lucas was SUPPOSED to replaTce Ness PRE MELEE, NOT PRE BRAWL.

And while you say she might not be important, she is still the most likely character from SS to appear. With or without Sheik.

Fyi, I was around pre Brawl to :/

I'll finish SS Hero Mode and will come back to this.

:phone:
 

MrGame&Rock

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(here's a hint. Seeing as she has to replace Sheik, it means she's not important or a good character and has to be tied to another character who already has and will keep that slot.)
Due to me being in school during most of this argument, I am in no position to reply to most of what either you or Diddy are saying as I lack context, but this line is complete and utter bull crap. If Impa had to replace Sheik, it's not because Impa's not important/a good character/must be tied to another character. It means that because Impa and Sheik have many things in common, like how they're both Sheikah, their play styles in Smash would be extremely similar, making the inclusion of both characters downright redundant. It has nothing to do with either character's importance or characterization in their original game.

My position is that Sheik, as a part of Zelda since her very first appearance in Smash, should stay as long as Zelda does, and also that this must apply in reverse as well; Sheik's inclusion and recognition in Smash should be a little cue to Nintendo that maybe Sheik shouldn't be a one-game pony outside Smash anymore. Having said that, SmashChu, your tome is much more rude and insulting in making your arguments. You insult Diddy and his points (or claim that he has none) rather than invest that energy in making your own point. You come across as by far the worse person in the conflict. When I asked about Dixie Kong and admitted that I have not played any DKC games, Diddy Kong didn't berate me for not having played the games nor insult me for not knowing about Dixie enough to avoid the word "semi clone". Instead he respectfully and kindly educated me on the differences in style between Dixie and Diddy and how Dixie would ideally be applied to Smash very differently than Diddy. Because of how he made his points, he convinced me and I now support Dixie for Smash. The way you make your points, by contrast, makes me want to instinctively oppose you even if I am in favor of keeping Sheik. Just keep all this in mind and try to be more polite when making points in the future.
 

Diddy Kong

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Why thanks man. That's cool from you.

I do agree with you there though, that if Sheik was so important, and made popular cause of Smash, Nintendo should've used her more in Zelda. But the fact that they didn't, but planned to on TP, yet disregarded the idea with SS and went for Impa instead (really, Sheik could've fitted in there with Impa training her and all) made me actually support her in the first place.

But so long Sheik does not return in another Zelda, and Impa will, I see no point of not switching them. Doesn't mean I actually don't like Sheik, just that her place can be better filled in as a Zelda spot. Impa fits the bill more than enough I feel.

:phone:
 

SmashChu

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Post Brawl most people either wanted Ridley and Mewtwo to be in it, but most where satisfied with the roster. I was to, Brawls roster was the best Smash roster by far, and added in most popular fan choices.

Anyways, to keep it short and simple: no, Impa might not have been more important than Ghirahim, but she still is important. Moreso than Sheik was. And you said yourself, a character that isn't important shouldn't be in.:phone:
OK, let's talk Sheik. No spoilers because I hope you played the game.

Sheik was actually a guiding force in OoT. She was their to guide and help Link as he went to each Temple and taught him new songs he would need. She would always pop up and you'd know her (or him, as you though). But what made Sheik interesting was her role with Zelda. See, Sheik wasn't just a guide for you. She was also a guise for Zelda. Sheik kept Zelda safe and allowed her to help you though your quest.

But that's also why the Impa thing with Zelda wont work. Sheik and Zelda are very much the same. They are two sides of a coin. Sheik is Zelda, but only a disguise she made to help her and to help Link. So it's no surprise in Smash that Sakurai did this again with Sheik and Zelda and it's the core of her character. This si why Impa can't work.

Also
Pit is also a retro character, and there always have been retro characters in Smash since Melee. He now isn't retro anymore, but even if, he was heavily suggested pre Brawl.
There is no distinction of characters. Ness proves that. If Saki gets in, he'll do the same. Don't separate them because Sakurai doesn't.

And while you say she might not be important, she is still the most likely character from SS to appear. With or without Sheik.
From your own mouth
Impa might not have been more important than Ghirahim
So guess who'll get it.

Oh, and Oasis is right. Grosse will get in before Impa. Heck, Groose has a nice little fan following.
 
D

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I don't think you could say that any of the Original 12 are retro.

That said, I never stated that we would not get a retro character, only that Sakurai didn't confirm a retro revival character.
He hinted that there would be one if he finds such a character than can be revived.

Also, while not retro, Samus could be considered a revival due to not having a game for the N64.
All other series of the Original 12 had recent titles on the 64 or recent titles coming up, in the case of Earthbound. I'm talking in Smash 64, BTW.

So in my eyes,
N64-Samus
Melee-Ice Climbers (Mr. Game & Watch is only labeled "retro" because he existed before Mario. There were Game & Watch Gallery titles before Melee)
Brawl-Pit (R.O.B. wasn't really "revived", seeing as he has made cameos in multiple Nintendo titles prior to Brawl)

So for Sm4sh, the "revived" character would be Mach Rider. Sakurai stated that he wanted Mach Rider in Melee, and has already given him a redesign.
Takamaru, is in the same boat as R.O.B.; retro, but would not technically be "revived" due to Takamaru's various appearances.
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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Smashchu: I object. Groose will be mere trophy than a playable. Impa might even make it as Diddy said (or be an Assist...
(-i^i-) )


Besides, IMO Groose has quite memetic molester-based fanbase. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

Impa though seems potentially more fun/cool to play as than Groose.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Retro is 2 systems below(or lower) for the most part. Then again, that would mean that it would only be Mario, Luigi, Samus, Kirby, Link, and DK that could apply.

I'd say there were no retros(that haven't had new games on the next system below) in 64. There are some from the latest series. Both Pokemon, Yoshi, Fox, Ness, Captain Falcon. So half from the NES, the other half from the SNES/N64/GameBoy.
 

Johnknight1

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And Zelda will likely be based of her most important appearance, which is Skyward Sword. Sheik doesn't fit in with her
Zelda looks could be from upcoming Wii U Zelda title. Re-creating Sheik's design to fit Skyward Sword isn't hard at all, given the graphics are (mostly) cel-shaded.
Plus, Impa is more recent, has had far more roles and holds more importance in the Zelda series than Sheik ever did.
Impa = Midna 2.0. :awesome: Sakurai doesn't solely care about a characters' importance to a series. He isn't a fanboy. Characters are added also because they are original, and make people buy the game. Sheik definitely did that. Impa would not.That is why Sheik will be in, and Impa won't. Let's go back to discussing things that could actually happen.
I wonder, if they said that Brawl's engine is gonna be used as a base, will they keep that engine, or evolve it? Because it might seem to get more worse than good...
They used the Melee data (not engine) at first, and gradually upgraded, changed, or completely started anew with a lot of it.
I don't think you could say that any of the Original 12 are retro.
Retro=Old, so most of them were fairly retro by 1997 standards. "Vintage" and "Retro" generally refers to something at least 15-20 years old. At SSB64's release, you could argue Mario, Donkey Kong (both made in 81) and Luigi (made soon after) were retro. That doesn't mean they aren't arguably modern though. Yet, they remain (mostly) the same.
 

yani

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Maybe Oasis could draw a picture of Diddy Kong wearing Impa's outfit? I have a mental image of a monkey wearing Sheikah clothes. :awesome:
That would be hilarious :awesome::laugh:

Right. Nintendo owns the rights to Dr. Wright... that's why you never see Dr. Wright in any SimCity games besides the SNES version. But notice this... Nintendo never reuses Dr. Wright in any other games other than insignificant cameos in Zelda games (Dr. Write in Link's Awakening, Dr. Left in Oracle of Seasons and The Minish Cap).

Square, on the other hand, owns the right to Geno and all the characters created for Super Mario RPG... and notice this... Square isn't doing anything with them. The only one time they did, Geno made an insignificant cameo in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga. This is why I do not think Geno is a good choice to represent Mario nor Square. There are many other better choices to represent Mario (Toad, Bowser Jr., Paper Mario, etc.) and Square (Slime, Chocobo, Hero, etc.). Geno just isn't a high priority in Nintendo's nor Square's plans. Same with Dr. Wright for Nintendo, Maxis, and Electronic Arts.
Ahh that's pretty cool, thanks for explaining!

As much as I want Geno, I do understand he's unlikely. I know Square wouldn't say hey let's use Geno to represent us, because that wouldn't do their company justice. If Square gets a rep, I think we'll have a shot of at least having a Geno trophy which would still be awesome. Perhaps even as a character too, but unlikely :(. He'd be a great fighter IMO.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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You should get one. More options. More Discussions. Etc.

Anyway, I just can't see Sheik ever being replaced, but I could see Impa as being slightly similar to her, but she has a lot of differences, apparently, like a Barrier. Likewise, she could use her knife for a lot of attacks, much like Taki from Soul Calibur.
 

Big-Cat

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The alternate outfit idea won't exactly work if we're talking about two separate entities...

Mario and Dr. Mario would work, since they're one in the same. Peach and Rosalina, not so much.

I originally had that idea, but I later received a knockdown when it became clear that that idea would be an insult to the actual characters.
It wouldn't exactly be an insult. I'd rather have a genuine alt. Daisy model as opposed to the color Peach has gotten two games in a row.
I'm ok with this.
Smash could use a Fighting Clown.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FightingClown
Tom Nook.
 
D

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Tom Nook will never happen though, due to Sakurai's beliefs on Animal Crossing characters being too peaceful (probably not including Resetti, but he's perfect as an AT).

EDIT: So I'd rather have someone that actually has a shot, like Groose.
 

Oasis_S

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Would Smash sell better if Ghirahim or Impa were included???

Any character outside of like Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Link, Samus, Donkey Kong, Pikachu, and Kirby are probably not going to make sales on their own. "More characters" makes sales, but not necessarily "Ghirahim included!" does.

Actually maybe Samus shouldn't even be there. Having a "robot" on the box art always looks good though. Variety!
 

yani

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Would Smash sell better if Ghirahim or Impa were included???

Any character outside of like Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Link, Samus, Donkey Kong, Pikachu, and Kirby are probably not going to make sales on their own. "More characters" makes sales, but not necessarily "Ghirahim included!" does.
This is true. I definitely think Sonic being included caught a few more sales though
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I'd say Ghirahim, who was received even better than Midna, being in would definitely help sales. Impa, maybe, but replacing Sheik would definitely piss off some Smash Bros. fanatics.
 

Oasis_S

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Yeah, everyone loves a cute little dinosaur.

Mach Rider should be on the box art since everyone loves EXPLOSIONS and manly leather-clad FELLERS.

 

Disfunkshunal

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You a couple pages late bro.

This is true. I definitely think Sonic being included caught a few more sales though
That's a slightly different case, that was the first announced game that would feature Mario and sonic co existing. People have waited close to two decades for that happen prior to brawl's launch.

:phone:
 

Johnknight1

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I'd say Ghirahim, who was received even better than Midna, being in would definitely help sales.
Who in the heck would want to play smash bros just because of that fruit cake=???

I still don't get why everyone is hung up on "zOMG! ZELDA NEWCOMERS!" when clearly the best, most interesting, and most liked Zelda characters are already playable. Meanwhile in Metroid land, the second most important character wasn't even considered playable by Sakurai in Brawl.

Edit: Sonic's inclusion alone probably helped sell somewhere from 100,000 to 1,000,000 units of the game. Basically, Sonic being in Brawl made Nintendo AND Sega MILLIONS!
:sonic: (which is why you can lock up Sonic for all future smash bros games, unless Sakurai goes totally rogue on Nintendo) :sonic:
 

Propeller Toad

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^All that's left is for Sakurai to find a team; however (if he hasn't done so as of yet).

Hm, it might seem that Sakurai might already know what newcomers he would like to add. He's seems to have already known which "newcomer" he wants to revive after SSB4.
 

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Since Mach Rider is based on Mad Max, and Mad Max is Mel Gibson, I wonder if Mach Rider would also hate Jews.
 
D

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Groose has a shot? Really?

Tell me why Sakurai would consider him. And would Smash sell better if he was included?

:phone:
I said he had a shot. Didn't say he had a GOOD one.

As compared to Tom Nook, who we were previously talking about, who has NO shot at all due to what Sakurai said about Animal Crossing characters.

And the others already covered your poor "would he make sales" argument.
 

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Characters awesomely made into the game would boost sales. Of coarse playable Ridley would cause hype due to being a dragon in a fighting game, and his demand. Why Ridley support is dead here though?

:phone:
 
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Why Ridley support is dead here though?

:phone:
I think that it's because Ridley is one of those characters that everyone wants/expects.

Like how there's little discussion about K. Rool. He's widely accepted.

EDIT: And the only thing that people talk about Ridley anyways is that he's "too big" or "too powerful", both arguments not holding any ground.
 

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Since Mach Rider is based on Mad Max, and Mad Max is Mel Gibson, I wonder if Mach Rider would also hate Jews.
Just like Mickey Mouse...
Characters awesomely made into the game would boost sales. Of coarse playable Ridley would cause hype due to being a dragon in a fighting game, and his demand. Why Ridley support is dead here though?
Ridley is like Smash Wii U/3DS' King Dedede. We all expect him to be playable so much that we don't even talk about him. We just assume he will be in. At least, I do! ;)
 

Oasis_S

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Characters awesomely made into the game would boost sales. Of coarse playable Ridley would cause hype due to being a dragon in a fighting game, and his demand. Why Ridley support is dead here though?
Charizard stole any fire Ridley would have had. More popular, more surprising, etc.


 
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