New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I have been very confused with the trend of trying to make each of the Smash characters look more realistic as well. The only one of the Smash series that I think has gone for "realism" on a regular basis was Metroid and Metal Gear (though its third-party).

For most other series, a realistic style is incredibly awkward.

That would mostly be because Metal Gear and Metroid are much more serious in nature. They ARE naturally dark. It works for them because of the atmosphere. SSB is not dark. It's much more light and fluffy, which makes sense, since it takes nods from the Kirby series.

The sad thing about Diddy's antics is that Sheik was one of the last two characters revealed on the Dojo before Brawl's release. That means we are probably to have to listen to this nonsense for another four years, so get used to it.

To be honest, I thought Sheik was one of the last additions to the roster. It's also possible she was only in once they got the design. Alternatively, they already had everything setup by the actual physical appearance. So it was a matter of pasting it on. IMO, if that had Tetra instead in her own slot(although it appears in that Sakurai only considered Toon Sheik according to the data), nobody would've really found it that big of a deal. But when a character is in for two games, and isn't "flavor of the month" anymore(which Mewtwo, Pichu, Dr. Mario, and Roy were according to Sakurai, hence them being the only ones not to return in some way), they have better chance of being staple characters.

Long story short, there is zero legitimate reason to replace Sheik now. Impa can totally be unique and added in. I honestly place her in the same area as Tingle. Great unique characters that could be easily added in without any issues, especially without replacing a single one, and they all have tons of game appearances. They fit all of Sakurai's criteria.(Tingle may be less on popularity route, but has better chances of being unique than Impa does due to being the only other notable Sheikah, or well, the only other one besides Impaz, a clear Expy/Note to Impa herself)

@Iblis: Zelda was put into one slot with Sheik because they're meant to be one full character with two halves. They're two halves of the same coin. They were meant to exist together in Melee, and it's entirely possible that was the case in Brawl too. If it weren't, I'd expect to see Toon Zelda/Tetra mentioned specifically in the Character Data. Sakurai really does consider them part of the package. And yes, same applies for Pokemon Trainer, especially them. The main slot is called Pokemon Trainer, NOT Charizard, Squirtle, or Ivysaur. You can switch between them now by selecting part of the picture(which needs to be done with the Samusi, of course), but they're part of the same slot and are only a true whole together. It's what makes them what they are.(I can only called ZSS/Samus an exception since you can't switch between them on the fly)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I find it odd that I mention Zoroark replacing Lucario, and people think that they can both be implemented. But when we get to the Sheik/Impa debate, people want Sheik out, even though they can both be included easily.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Wow at calling Shiek a half character LOL

Does this mean Samus/ZSS are half characters and that Pokemon Trainer's pokemon are 1/3 characters?

Not that I support the Impa/Shiek change but just because it's never happened doesn't it can't happen. I would like to see an Impa moveset though.

Now you see, that's the problem. From what I gather, Diddy says Impa and Sheik would have essentially the same moveset.

And yes, I consider half or 1/3 characters because they make up one character and take one slot.

 

[Diddy Kong]

NOT THE SAME AT ALL. Sheik = ninja esque character. Impa = ninja / monky esque character with magic.

Spoiler

Possibly time alltering magic as well.

Similar playstyle is not the same moveset. Just similar playstyles. Meta Knight / Marth similar (less so of coarse, but you get my point).

I'll do a moveset later.

And I actually argree with HyperFalcon this once. Toon Zelda / Tetra could've easily been our Zelda / Sheik replacement ever since Brawl.

 

[Rosalina suporter]

After seeing the graphics on Brawl, I've been wondering how good they'll be on SSB4... Here's a picture to show the differences of the 64 originals to the Brawl vetrans.

Any thoughts?

I can't waight to see what smash bros 4 will look like and in HD.

 

[Deleted member]

I think I need to point this out to Diddy Kong now.

1. The character's inclusion must make people want to play the game.

This is infinitely harder than you and I think, because we are so jaded by our own perspective. I would insist that Viewtiful Joe would be the best character ever, but I'm not sure people would really want the game more. Neither of us would have ever thought of ROB, and yet "ROBOT" was the CROWD FAVORITE by FAR in the GDC matches the CAs had. Everyone loved him! We as gamers are way too biased to make this decision easily.

2. The character must be unique.

The character must have identifying features and abilities that would make them different from existing characters, so that they add something to the game.

3. The character must fit into the style of Super Smash Bros.

The character obviously has to be able to fit into the framework of how smash works, obviously Pac-Man and L Block would not work. (My examples, not his.)

4. They must contribute to the game balance.

Everyone has to fit together. Every new character must counter some characters and be countered by others, and they must fit in one giant contiguous mesh.

Impa would easily break the fourth rule if Sheik were to be dropped. Going by this, the only way she is getting in is if Zelda gets a fifth rep. She must then beat out Ghirahim and Tingle, who are all more likely.

There are also those who want Meowth, but I think the other generations need some love; the 1st generation gets way too much representation.

Technically, it's doing that by giving us a 5th gen rep in Victini/Zoroark.

_Mario_and_Sonic_Guy"]I find it odd that I mention Zoroark replacing Lucario, and people think that they can both be implemented. But when we get to the Sheik/Impa debate, people want Sheik out, even though they can both be included easily.

That's because a 5th gen Pokemon can be implemented with Lucario returning. Also, it's really only Diddy Kong and like ten others that care if Impa gets in or not.

 

[Conviction]

I don't see how that makes any sense. You can still slap Shiek/ZSS/Squirtle/Charizard/Ven/Samus on the character screen and they would still have a viable moveset to compete with the rest of the cast.

They do in the hacked verisons of brawl. I would understand them being half characters if the other wouldn't survive without the other or wasn't complete. And you can't tell me with Sheik, Zelda isn't complete, because Samus has been just fine without ZSS.

 

[Diddy Kong]

How is Impa not a balanced character?? Impa easily fits all 4 points, especially if Sheik made it through these criteria.

And I'd say she's at least more likely than Ghirahim. Wasn't it being discussed that supporter characters > villain is most cases? And wheren't you all bashing me for thinking otherwise with proof of Bowser being considered in Smash 64 and not Peach?

Tingle remains Tingle. He's the weird factor. He might make it or not because of that.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I don't see how that makes any sense. You can still slap Shiek/ZSS/Squirtle/Charizard/Ven/Samus on the character screen and they would still have a viable moveset to compete with the rest of the cast.

They do in the hacked verisons of brawl. I would understand them being half characters if the other wouldn't survive without the other or wasn't complete. And you can't tell me with Sheik, Zelda isn't complete, because Samus has been just fine without ZSS.

But then again, does it make sense? The only one I can see being completely seperate from their main character is Charizard. Sheik is Zelda's alter ego and ZSS is Samus, minus the Power Suit. It just wouldn't make sense to make them seperate. Squirtle and Ivysaur COULD, but still. The only one that I can see like this is Charizard.

 

[Conviction]

That's besides the point. My point is, they aren't half characters if they can be put on the character select screen and their moveset is viable to compete with the rest of the cast. Which, all the previously mentioned characters, can do and has been done.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

That's besides the point. My point is, they aren't half characters if they can be put on the character select screen and their moveset is viable to compete with the rest of the cast. Which, all the previously mentioned characters, can do and has been done.

Not the Pokémon. Down B is Switch. If they don't have anyone to switch with, what then?

 

[Aipom]

I'd say that the biggest problem with representation in the Pokemon series is that most of the highly recognizable Pokemon are from the first generation. Regardless if they became popular from the games or anime, they're still the most well-known because they've ben around the longest. Pikachu, Meowth, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, Charizard, Mew, Snorlax, Eevee, Squirtle.... the list goes on.

Don't get me wrong, I love all of the generations and am a major player/fan of Pokemon. There are Pichu, Wobbuffet, Deoxys, Lucario, Blaziken, Victini, Zoroark; but they just don't have the name recognition of the first gen pokemon. That's why there will probably never be equal generation representation of Pokemon in Super Smash

 

[Diddy Kong]

But then again, does it make sense? The only one I can see being completely seperate from their main character is Charizard. Sheik is Zelda's alter ego and ZSS is Samus, minus the Power Suit. It just wouldn't make sense to make them seperate. Squirtle and Ivysaur COULD, but still. The only one that I can see like this is Charizard.

As in official Smash, yes. Still, with a few cases of hacked version of Brawl where these characters are separate they still function fine enough. Especially ZSS, who has a full blown moveset and does not lack a Down B like the others.

The others have IIRC been given new Down Bs, or at least Charizard did in one. Saw that in a video, didn't play it myself unfortunately (Brawl- looks awesome). Point remains the same. The characters would function just as well, they have just been given roles like this to fit into the roster. Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur, Zero Suit Samus and Sheik would otherwise never been considered being their own character. But it would be possible as they have all functioning movesets. Especially ZSS.

Charizard as a separate character I'd actually like. He was always hugely popular, and it would make room for a new Trainer though I think I prefer the Trainer with the ones he has now. Just remove stamina and make Charizard faster and actually fly and I'd be cool. No Rock Smash and something awesomely useful would be a cool bonus.

Zelda could easily be separate cause she has been like that in EVERY ZELDA GAME, except for Ocarina of Time. In which in the final fight she didn't even switch to Sheik either when it could've been extremely beneficial -especially when walking out of that collasping tower. ***** WHERE YOUR DEKU NUTS AT???

Zelda switching to Sheik in mid battle is entirely made up in Smash Bros. Impa switching into the fight to protect Zelda would easily work entirely the same. But some people just like to cling to OoT a bit too much. Which is not bad, cause Ganondorf could easily borrow a few moves from that game, and we'd all be one happy family.

Said this before, and saying it again. I also don't expect much change in the Zelda series in Smash except for a bit of revamping. Sheik being revamped to become Impa with a similar style (maybe indeed actually borrow a few moves, like Lucario / Mewtwo and Ike / Roy WHICH'D MAKE MORE SENCE TO) could be one of the projects along with revamping Link to be good, and Ganon's unique moveset. Also Zelda being less 'extreme', no Sheik would really help with that.

 

[Conviction]

Not the Pokémon. Down B is Switch. If they don't have anyone to switch with, what then?

I don't blame you for not knowing what you are talking about

That's what then.

@Diddy: The only move Lucario and Mewtwo share is Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere

 

[Diddy Kong]

And Forward Smash

Charizard, Lucas and Wolf also have moves from Mewtwo. F Tilt, Down Smash and F air respectively.

Why not give Sheik the same treatment?

 

[ChronoBound]

Sakurai: Oh come on guys. Stop picking on Diddy Kong. Its not like I have never dropped an older Zelda character and gave their moveset to a Zelda character from a more recent game. I gave Young Link's moveset to Toon Link, and most of you guys count Toon Link as a newcomer, right?

We need a Sakurai smiley.

 

[Conviction]

@Diddy: WELL DAMN, I guess I'm wrong about that then. They do have similar Fsmashes. I just looked at it. XD

 

[Aipom]

Sakurai: Oh come on guys. Stop picking on Diddy Kong. Its not like I have never dropped an older Zelda character and gave their moveset to a Zelda character from a more recent game. I gave Young Link's moveset to Toon Link, and most of you guys count Toon Link as a newcomer, right?

We need a Sakurai smiley.

I kinda hope they revamp Link's moveset so its different than Toon Link's, mainly because I'm somehow better at Toon Link lol. But seriously, I love like to see some moveset differentiation between these 2 in SSB4

 

[Deleted member]

@Aipom: I think you nailed it. Throw in that Mewtwo is the most wanted newcomer for SSB4 from Pokemon and you'll see why the 1st gen is so memorable.

@ChronoBound: Perhaps there should be an alliance for us to get Sakurai's smile?

How is Impa not a balanced character?? Impa easily fits all 4 points, especially if Sheik made it through these criteria.

Because dropping Sheik would require Sakurai to make massive changes with Zelda to make up for it. Even if Impa were to be paired with Zelda, he still would have to make massive balancing changes as you have to balance Impa with Zelda and then balance Zelda/Impa with the rest of the cast.

Keeping Zelda and Sheik together is much easier to do then dropping Sheik.

 

[Conviction]

Idk if there would be massive balancing changes that would have to go into works but it is mad easier just to keep the two the way they are.

About the Smiley: If you want that, talk to Aisight, he's the mod that adds smileys.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'd say that the biggest problem with representation in the Pokemon series is that most of the highly recognizable Pokemon are from the first generation. Regardless if they became popular from the games or anime, they're still the most well-known because they've ben around the longest. Pikachu, Meowth, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, Charizard, Mew, Snorlax, Eevee, Squirtle.... the list goes on.

Don't get me wrong, I love all of the generations and am a major player/fan of Pokemon. There are Pichu, Wobbuffet, Deoxys, Lucario, Blaziken, Victini, Zoroark; but they just don't have the name recognition of the first gen pokemon. That's why there will probably never be equal generation representation of Pokemon in Super Smash

Probably not, but it should still be good if at least one Pokemon represents each generation. The 3rd generation is the most desperate, since none of the Pokemon from that generation are playable.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Except "hacked" versions are not the legitimate game we bought and that doesn't exist. Until they are put into their own character slot, they're part of the same overall character. PT does not work without all three. Zelda does not work without Sheik. The only two that really are not dependent on eachother in gameplay(or can be used that way) are the Samusi. PT is 3 in 1. Shelda is 2 in 1. That's how they were meant to be played by default. We're the ones who played as them as if they were separate slots, not how they were implemented. They're both different and the same character in the end.

I also have to go to work, so I can't really say much more on this.

 

[Conviction]

Except "hacked" versions are not the legitimate game we bought and that doesn't exist. Until they are put into their own character slot, they're part of the same overall character. PT does not work without all three. Zelda does not work without Sheik. The only two that really are not dependent on eachother in gameplay(or can be used that way) are the Samusi. PT is 3 in 1. Shelda is 2 in 1. That's how they were meant to be played by default. We're the ones who played as them as if they were separate slots, not how they were implemented. They're both different and the same character in the end.

I also have to go to work, so I can't really say much more on this.

You are still not getting the point. They can be played as their own character without any alteration. They have their own moveset and metagame. If that doesn't count for being your own character then I don't know what is.

 

[ChronoBound]

As I said earlier, get used to this "Impa is going to replace Sheik" business, because we will be hearing it for a long time, especially considering that Sheik was the second to last character revealed on the Dojo before Brawl's release.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I kinda hope they revamp Link's moveset so its different than Toon Link's, mainly because I'm somehow better at Toon Link lol. But seriously, I love like to see some moveset differentiation between these 2 in SSB4

My suggestion before was Link having the Skyward Strike / Sword Beam for Side B, and the Shield Bash for Down B. Toon Link can then of coarse keep with the old bombs and boomerang. As I feel it's better for his playstyle anyway to keep some projectile spam in there. Link would be fine with just the Bow and Skyward Strike. Shield Bash is becoming quite iconic to the 3D Zeldas now with 2 major apperances, and both the Sword Beam and Shield are a throwback to older Zeldas as well.

@SSBF: Zelda / Sheik was NEVER balanced. And Sakurai has a team now helping with balancing. If anything Impa would HELP with the balance with finding a new style to fit with Zelda. Characters will play differently anyway in this new game.

And the Toon Link / Young Link arguement is actually true. Relevancy strikes again. Granted that perhaps Impa would be more work to replace Sheik than Toon Link replacing Young Link, but you could call Impa the Lucario of Smash 4 then if you'd like.

 

[ChronoBound]

• Sakurai had misgivings about showing off the game in an unfinished state at expos, and feels confident that the final product will be a dramatic improvement over what they've shown before

Hearing this I don't think we will be seeing anything about Smash 4 at E3 2012 or this year for that matter.

 

[Conviction]

:-/ Well that means more of this for another year

 

[Diddy Kong]

E3 is in June right? The very most we could expect is a picture of some of the classic characters on a newly stage, if anything. But just about everything would create mass hype anyway, so maybe they'll come with SOMETHING? Just don't expect much.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Chrono could be right though...

So when ya think they'll announce SSB4-stuff if not in E3?

 

[ChronoBound]

E3 is in June right? The very most we could expect is a picture of some of the classic characters on a newly stage, if anything. But just about everything would create mass hype anyway, so maybe they'll come with SOMETHING? Just don't expect much.

I am not even expecting a name. I expect maybe a few scant details at best at E3 2012, perhaps something along the lines of "its in development now".

Like I said another 1.5 years of shouting in the dark.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, I agree with you there. Hopefully we'll get some Zelda information though.

 

[Zaxis]

Watch there going to show a clip of Mario, Link, Kirby, and Pikachu what they look like in ssb4 but then going to show a unknown pic about 0.2 sec of the clip with a blurry image thats fooling us to a tease of a new or veteran character but its just a thought

 

[Aurane]

What's good?

So, I now have made almost 50 (B) movesets alone, and 10 Fullsets alone. I'm on a roll Some of them haven't been displayed yet, but will be soon.

Now, onto the discussion, I think Sakurai, with his mischevious brain, will show a partial of something in June. There's no doubt the excitement he's obviously been showing will drive him into releasing some sort of news, be it a Name, a Picture, or a trailer.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Always thought a trailer was asking for too much. Brawl was already in development when we got that trailer, this is different. A name and a few pictures (of not even the actual game, just maybe characters or such) is the most I could expect. And even that would be much I think.

 

[Zaxis]

What about artworks?

 

[Zzuxon]

After seeing the graphics on Brawl, I've been wondering how good they'll be on SSB4... Here's a picture to show the differences of the 64 originals to the Brawl vetrans.

Any thoughts?

I hope they revert graphics to melee standards so they can put in more characters. I mean, look at project Crusade. It's going to have 80 characters, each with a full moveset. They are doing it on game maker. And it's because of sprites. Sakurai needs to cut back on meaningless graphics, and give us a 60 character roster. At least thats what i think.

 

[ChronoBound]

I think people are grasping at straws when they are thinking Smash 4's unveil will involve something other than a trailer. Face it, we are looking at a late 2012 reveal at the earliest (possibly October).

 

[Diddy Kong]

I hope they revert graphics to melee standards so they can put in more characters. I mean, look at project Crusade. It's going to have 80 characters, each with a full moveset. They are doing it on game maker. And it's because of sprites. Sakurai needs to cut back on meaningless graphics, and give us a 60 character roster. At least thats what i think.

Or just keep it with the Brawl style, as it was by far the best looking. Don't see the need to improve much on Brawl's character designs to be honest. It's still one of the best looking Wii games by far.

 

[Aurane]

I hope they revert graphics to melee standards so they can put in more characters. I mean, look at project Crusade. It's going to have 80 characters, each with a full moveset. They are doing it on game maker. And it's because of sprites. Sakurai needs to cut back on meaningless graphics, and give us a 60 character roster. At least thats what i think.

Anime-style fights would fix that too. I don't want Melee graphics returning.

I think people are grasping at straws when they are thinking Smash 4's unveil will involve something other than a trailer. Face it, we are looking at a late 2012 reveal at the earliest (possibly October).

Why not, exactly? I'll suck on the straw for sheer enjoyment. I've waited too long, knowing the announcement of SSB4, but not knowing S*** about it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Patience young grasshopper, patience.