New Smash Bros for WiiU

[ChronoBound]

Paper Mario is definitely noteworthy enough to be playable. He has four games under his belt, and so far in Japan, every Paper Mario game has sold better than the previous one.

Victini is the successor to Pichu and Plusle & Minun, and that is a good thing in my eyes.

 

[Johnknight1]

@ ChronoBound
That was more or less Shortie's take on a "perfect" roster with "perfect" character choices for said franchise. It was at the last something we don't see too often here.

But yeah, I think Paper Mario is at least up there with Bowser Jr. and Toad. As most of you know, I would argue that Paper Mario's chances are extremely good. Not betting worthy good (like what I think Mega Man's chances are), but good and very likely. You know, I just got that gut feeling about Paper Mario. It seems to be his "time," just like how Brawl was (I'm trying to find the right character, and this one only kind of works) Olimar's time.

 

[ChronoBound]

The only two Mario guys that seem to have a large following that I don't think playable status is warranted for is Waluigi and Geno. Geno should get in as an Assist though. Dr. Mario should be brought back as a costume if possible.

 

[Hoots]

The only two Mario guys that seem to have a large following that I don't think playable status is warranted for is Waluigi and Geno. Geno should get in as an Assist though. Dr. Mario should be brought back as a costume if possible.

To be completely honest, as much as the Toad/Bowser Jr./Paper Mario fans would hate it, I think Geno has a much better chance to be playable than anyone gives him credit for. It has been alluded to that a character or several fell through due to copyright issues, and since so many people supported Geno, Sakurai KNOWS that people really wanted him to be in Brawl. And fortunately for our lazer beam shooting starman puppet Gandalf, Sakurai really doesn't give two ****s about Americans on Smash forums who think that he is "irrelevant because he was in one obscure game". He also doesn't overthink the roster like we do, and since he is always playing catchup, I think we could possibly see Geno show up. I think Geno's merit comes from a ridiculously easy moveset that would be incredibly unique and interesting, which Toad and Bowser Jr. cannot claim.

HOWEVER, since Square can literally gain nothing from his inclusion, they can always tell Sakurai to go **** himself like they probably did with Brawl. I guess it comes down to how much Nintendo wants to pay. I guess the argument could be said that Square would love for Slime to be the square rep since it might make Western audiences actually take a look at Dragon Quest. I just think that there's no reason to just absolutely condemn Geno like everyone does.

 

[Deleted member]

For Mario reps: I'd just be happy if we got either Bowser Jr., Toad, or Paper Mario in. Out of those, I consider Toad to be the most likely and the best choice, though I also find Paper Mario to be an appealing character that will only further justify itself as a solid choice as it receives more games. I'm not particularly fond of Bowser Jr., but he is a good choice and one I wouldn't mind. Opposite could be said of Geno; I'd like him in, but I really don't think he's a great choice. I do, however, fully oppose Waluigi's inclusion and I am hard-pressed to see as to why he would get in over the four mentioned (okay, maybe we'll see him before Geno).

Also, @SSBF: I skimmed through the Victini movie(the one with Zekrom and that other guy). After stomaching the terrible voice acting, I noticed that Victini never actually fights. He simply floats around being cute and supportive, then gets his *** kicked and cries, then blows himself up to save the day, exactly something you would expect from a Mew-like Pokemon. Let's contrast that to the Zoroark movie where she is fighting essentially the entire time. Maybe there is something I missed, but simply can't grasp why people think that Victini is more likely/deserving than Zoroark.

There are two things to note:

The first of which is that there is nothing stating that a Pokemon's anime personality has to be shown in Smash 4. If Victini were to be playable in Smash 4, the personality it displays in the anime does not have to be displayed in this game as Smash is not canon and in the Liberty Garden event, Victini gleefully accept the fight, so if we're going by the games, it seems more energetic to fight.

Secondly, Smash is a series that has allowed a baby Pokemon to join Smash. I doubt Victini's personality in the anime will be a serious issue towards considering who the 5th gen rep will be since Victini is far more capable of fighting then Pichu ever was (and it definitely shows in the game).

 

[Johnknight1]

Geno would make an excellent playable character. With all of his long-range and magical attacks, he would just be a dynamite character. It's too bad Nintendo and Square Enix don't reach out to one another to bring the Super Mario RPG series back. I love the Paper Mario franchise and I like the Mario and Luigi series. However, Super Mario RPG is the original-and best-Mario RPG ever in my unhumble opinion.

Really if it wasn't for Super Mario RPG basically being a "one and done" game between Square Enix and Nintendo, or Nintendo bought/owned the rights to the game and its' original characters, most of the Super Mario RPG characters would continually be used, and the game Super Mario RPG would have been a series. Heck, Paper Mario is stylistically a copy of a Super Mario RPG. The original title of the first Paper Mario game was "Super Mario RPG 2" until Square Enix made Nintendo legally change the games' name.

Super Mario RPG needs a comeback like Rosie O'Donnell needs duck tape permanently attached to her lips!

 

[nLiM8d]

If anything, its becoming of Geno to be a "Smash" character, he'd fit right in there with Marth & Shiek.

I suppose I could say 'Melee' character by design, but overall Geno has had a huge support base since that era. I recognize that cult following and respect it as well.

The first of which is that there is nothing stating that a Pokemon's anime personality has to be shown in Smash 4. If Victini were to be playable in Smash 4, the personality it displays in the anime does not have to be displayed in this game as Smash is not canon and in the Liberty Garden event, Victini gleefully accept the fight, so if we're going by the games, it seems more energetic to fight.

So Hoots if you're still around, doesn't this seem like a desperate attempt at straw grasping? I can't read it any other way besides weaseling for a way to cover the bases.

First its movie significance, then its game significance, then its eager "looking" by the game. This seems to be getting out of hand.

 

[Hoots]

Geno would make an excellent playable character. With all of his long-range and magical attacks, he would just be a dynamite character. It's too bad Nintendo and Square Enix don't reach out to one another to bring the Super Mario RPG series back. I love the Paper Mario franchise and I like the Mario and Luigi series. However, Super Mario RPG is the original-and best-Mario RPG ever in my unhumble opinion.

Really if it wasn't for Super Mario RPG basically being a "one and done" game between Square Enix and Nintendo, or Nintendo bought/owned the rights to the game and its' original characters, most of the Super Mario RPG characters would continually be used, and the game Super Mario RPG would have been a series. Heck, Paper Mario is stylistically a copy of a Super Mario RPG, and the original title of the first Paper Mario game was "Super Mario RPG 2" until Square Enix made Nintendo legally change the games' name.

Super Mario RPG needs a comeback like Rosie O'Donnell needs duck tape permanently attached to her lips!

I totally agree. SMRPG is in my top tier of RPGs along with FFVII and Skies of Arcadia. Unfortunately, Square is too busy being a terrible company, making games that no one asked for or wants, creating the biggest failure in MMO history, and diverting their resources to making bizarre handheld games that only appeal to the... "Monster Hunter" demographic if you catch my drift...

Also, @SSBF: We all know that Pichu was only added because he was an easy clone of Pikachu and that's it. We shouldn't read any more into his inclusion than that. I just thought I remember you saying that as opposed to the other Mew-like Pokemon, Victini can actually fight. Now since all Pokemon in the game can fight, I assumed you meant in like the Anime, but apparently he doesn't fight in that. I just think it's not too good for Victini that Nintendo markets Zoroark as an asskicking ****** taking down Pokemon left and right. Then you have Victini who is marketed as a cuddly huggable stuffed animal who helps OTHER Pokemon do better, without ever fighting himself once.

@N: I would agree with that. I simply don't see this apparently obvious superiority of Victino to Zoroark. But as always, maybe I am just missing something.

 

[ChronoBound]

Hoots shows me again why I don't like the Geno fanbase.

Practically every character can be made to have an interesting moveset.

 

[Deleted member]

@Shortie: I agree with everything except for Bandana Dee (not all that important) and Krystal (why is she on there?).
Bandana Dee is only in four games.
Super Star as the first opponent in Megaton Punch.
Super Star Ultra as one of Dedede's closest minions and previous role.
Returns to Dream Land as the 4th character you can be after Kirby, Meta, and Dedede.
And Mass Attack as a minor character in one of the minigames.

 

[Hoots]

Hoots shows me again why I don't like the Geno fanbase.

Practically every character can be made to have an interesting moveset.

Exactly how do I do that, my good man?! Of course every character "can be made" to have an interesting moveset. Luckily for Geno, he has one built into his original and only incarnation. Sakurai himself said he looks at characters who do something unique, which Geno does. I'm not sure exactly what is wrong with my assessment of him. I still don't think he's likely at all. It's just that almost everyone around here treats him as an abomination that is absolutely ridiculous to suggest, and I don't think that's really fair.

 

[Johnknight1]

I totally agree. SMRPG is in my top tier of RPGs along with FFVII and Skies of Arcadia. Unfortunately, Square is too busy being a terrible company, making games that no one asked for or wants, creating the biggest failure in MMO history, and diverting their resources to making bizarre handheld games that only appeal to the... "Monster Hunter" demographic if you catch my drift...

Super Mario RPG isn't quite my favorite (traditional) RPG ever, but it is up there in my next to top tier of RPGs. That tier also includes the likes of Mother 3, Final Fantasy IV, Final Fantasy VI, Tales of Symphonia, and Chrono Trigger. The top tier belongs to one RPG only, a game I have beaten over and over again but still love, and is my favorite (traditional) hands down RPG ever!

 

[ChronoBound]

The arrogance of the Geno fanbase is what puts me off from them (IE. HE IS SOOOO MUCH MORE UNIQUE THAN EVERYONE ELSE). This is coming from someone who actually played and bought Super Mario RPG when it originally came out. It was my first RPG, and still one of my favorites. However, I think that Geno definitely takes a backseat to Toad, Paper Mario, and Bowser Jr. in terms of getting in as a playable character.

However, I would definitely take him over Purple Luigi.

 

[nLiM8d]

I'd say that the only thing that pichu adds to that argument is that the two have similar frames (recycle?). The context you're using would imply that Victini is indeed a baby pokemon, which by way of the 'baby' generation doesn't seem to be the case. Thus the relationship between the two points of fighting and babies in smash is meaningless.

With that notion logged, you could move on to how the inclusion of either character is distinct:
Pichu was a gag clone.

That takes care of that one.

What is the purpose of this character? The only defense of "Mew-like" pokemon deviating from their exclusion from smash would be that one is capible of "fighting".

As Hoots states, all Pokemon are capable of some form of offense, so that doesn't seem to be the case. Each character designed for smash would be inevitably based around their fighter profile, meaning they will make a moveset for any character they include. This would assume that any character can have a moveset made for them simply because they were chosen.

I'm certain that this is some sort of fallacy, but that's a digression.

 

[Johnknight1]

@ ChronoBound
Yes, every character could have a unique moveset, but how many could have a unique, fun, original moveset that would make you excited to play as=??? Someone could make a Tingle moveset, but it wouldn't make me want to jump out of my seat, go plug in my game console, and beat the crap out of n00bs online with him.+

Now Chrono, you have played and beat Super Mario RPG probably several times. Geno's potential moveset isn't a hard moveset to visualize. Just picture it now... in action... in smash bros. Fighting epicly alongside Mario to save the day on yet another awesome adventure. And then, you get to FIGHT MARIO! BEAT HIS FACE IN FOR STEALING YOUR SPOTLIGHT! SHOOT HIM GENO! SHOOT HIM! SHHHHOOOOOOOOTTTT HIMMM!!!! SHOOOTTT AGAINNNNNNNNN!!!!!

Doesn't that prospect make you totally excited=??? Visualizing a Geno moveset straight from Super Mario RPG... it gives me goosebumps. There's not a whole lot of potential newcomer characters I could say that for. Just Dixie Kong, K. Rool, Pac-Man (because of his icon status), Ridley, and above all, MEGA MEGA MEGA MANNN!!!!

 

[ChronoBound]

Jigglypuff and Pichu were not exactly known for fighting yet they both got in.

If Sakurai wants to scrap Lucario, Zoroark will get in. If Sakurai plans on giving Pokemon six slots, then it will probably be Victini (if a fifth-generation Pokemon is used).

 

[Deleted member]

One would think that the best Mew-like Pokemon to add would be...Mew itself, right?

Think about it; Mew along side Mewtwo and Lucario would be epic, would it not?

Too bad it won't happen (even though Mew was one of the Top 10 in the official Smash poll for Melee...).

And Mew wouldn't have to be a clone; it has access to a crapton of moves of different types, due to its ability to learn every TM and HM possible.

 

[nLiM8d]

Ugh, the misinterpretations going on right now are abysmal.

 

[Shorts]

Geno is the love child of two of the greatest gaming companies ever. (I have to say this too often) Simply put, Geno represents the relationship and achievements Ninty and SE have accomplished together. I don't think you can say the same for Slime or Black Mage.

Also, I would hate to burst anyone's bubble, but Star pointed out that Brawl's questionaire is probably going to play a part in deciding who's in the next game. This was taken when Geno fans were at their peak. So, go figure~

If Sakurai wants to scrap Lucario,

I honestly doubt he wanted to Scrap YLink, Pichu, Doc, Roy, or Mewtwo. He's going to probably try his best to keep Lucario in the game.

 

[Hoots]

The arrogance of the Geno fanbase is what puts me off from them (IE. HE IS SOOOO MUCH MORE UNIQUE THAN EVERYONE ELSE). This is coming from someone who actually played and bought Super Mario RPG when it originally came out. It was my first RPG, and still one of my favorites. However, I think that Geno definitely takes a backseat to Toad, Paper Mario, and Bowser Jr. in terms of getting in as a playable character.

However, I would definitely take him over Purple Luigi.

My only point about comparing Geno to Toad and Bowser Jr. is the difference between what they can do when it comes to conceptualizing a moveset. For Geno, it is incredibly easy to see what he would do and to see what sets him aside. Meanwhile, when conceptualizing Toad as a character and Bowser Jr. as a character, it's much harder and people don't really have a good idea of what sets them apart.

As far as Junior goes, I actually heavily supported him pre Brawl with a paintbrush moveset. Now that the Sunshine ship has sailed, I think it's safe to say that he won't have the painbrush moveset anymore now that his role has been more defined/redefined. Now since he simply does pretty much what Bowser does, it's harder to conceptualize a unique character. At least from my perspective. I actually think Geno/Paintbrush Junior/Paper Mario are all unique, but Geno DOES have his cult following which shouldn't be easily discounted.

 

[Deleted member]

@Shortie: I think he wanted to scrap Young Link and Pichu.
That's why they weren't in the data. (That, and Toon Link is the new Young Link anyway.)

 

[nLiM8d]

I hear you loud and clear Hoots.

I honestly doubt he wanted to Scrap YLink, Pichu, Doc, Roy, or Mewtwo. He's going to probably try his best to keep Lucario in the game.

It was likely a move based on his promise to keep clones to a minimum for Brawl.

Certainly, its to be expected that Lucario would further solidify his own distinct moveset if he and Mewtwo were to co-exist. (Though this is all subjective)

 

[Deleted member]

Even if Geno was the most requested character in the world, he still has one huge hurdle. Square-Enix.
That alone should discount him. Because, like someone said, what would they gain from Geno in Smash?

 

[ChronoBound]

@Shortie: I think he wanted to scrap Young Link and Pichu.
That's why they weren't in the data. (That, and Toon Link is the new Young Link anyway.)

Plusle & Minun was probably going to be Pichu's replacement (and they basically look like a differently colored version of Pichu that happens to make the Pichu Bros. aspect to them official).

Victini has the same body shape as Pichu and Plusle & Minun, so perhaps that might work in his favor

 

[Deleted member]

Having a similar body shape only works for clones (it's why Ganondorf was in Melee, after all)

Zoroark still has a lot more going for it than Victini. And it's NOT because it has a similar body to Lucario.

 

[Hoots]

Even if Geno was the most requested character in the world, he still has one huge hurdle. Square-Enix.
That alone should discount him. Because, like someone said, what would they gain from Geno in Smash?

Yeah, that was me who said it. I know that Square Enix has no economic reason to include Geno unless they plan on making a SMRPG2 or a SMRPG remake. However, Square DOES seem to have an aversion to money with their recent business decisions, so you never know... If Nintendo really wanted Geno, they could get him. It just depends how much they're willing to pay. My entire point is that people should attack Geno for more valid reasons, other than attacks that I don't see as entirely fair.

 

[nLiM8d]

There needs to be a sweetspot between the two.

Apparently one fights seldomly, the other fights too much (juicin?)

Both are 5th gen, so its terrible all the same.

 

[Deleted member]

My list of valid reasons:

1. He's an old obscure Mario character. When it comes to Mario characters, there are plenty of relevant and recurring faces such as Toad and Bowser Jr.

2. He's a SE character. He's a 3rd Party, and not a very important one at that for SE. SE's got big name series such as Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy. A character from one of those, such as Slime or Black Mage would be better suited.

3. Geno started as a fad that escalated greatly. You know those Groose fads? Geno was like that. Only it got worse. Next thing you know, Groose will be the new Geno.

 

[ChronoBound]

Before Geno it was Poo. Poo's cult died out before Brawl was announced though.

 

[Hoots]

My list of valid reasons:

1. He's an old obscure Mario character. When it comes to Mario characters, there are plenty of relevant and recurring faces such as Toad and Bowser Jr.

2. He's a SE character. He's a 3rd Party, and not a very important one at that for SE. SE's got big name series such as Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy. A character from one of those, such as Slime or Black Mage would be better suited.

3. Geno started as a fad that escalated greatly. You know those Groose fads? Geno was like that. Only it got worse. Next thing you know, Groose will be the new Geno.

What Groose fad?

Regardless, I think the fact that a huge amount of people wanted Geno shows that he isn't like some douchebag Zelda character that was added for High School comedic relief. Sakurai obviously cares about the impact that a character makes, even if they're in one game. That's why I don't get the people who want to replace Sheik with Impa. R.O.B. wasn't even in a game. Pit had only one game. Ice Climbers only had one game. And none of them were even popular! Ness and Lucas only had one game. I mean, I just think Geno hate is really derived and perpetuated from itself.

Also, Zoroark's body is humanoid, but it is certainly different enough to coexist with Lucario and Mewtwo.

 

[Johnknight1]

Geno is the love child of two of the greatest gaming companies ever. (I have to say this too often) Simply put, Geno represents the relationship and achievements Ninty and SE have accomplished together. I don't think you can say the same for Slime or Black Mage.

Pretty much you had Nintendo at its' peak, and Square Enix at its' peak, working on a game together.

Nintendo had recently made or was in the process of making classics like Super Mario All-Stars, Super Mario World 1&2, Super Mario Land 1&2, Donkey Kong Country 1-3, A Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, Super Metroid, Kirby's Dreamland 1-3, Star Fox, F-Zero, EarthBound, and Fire Emblem 3-5.

Square Soft had just made Final Fantasy III, Final Fantasy IV, Final Fantasy V, Final Fantasy VI, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, and Radical Dreamers.

It was simply, at the time, a match made in heaven. Both companies constantly thrive to reach the creative genius at that level. Both companies were pushing and setting the boundaries like few other video game companies in the history of the industry. Both companies kept getting better and better, and improving everything, while still creating new, original, long-lasting series (for Nintendo, F-Zero and Donkey Kong Country, and for Square Soft, Secret of Mana and Chrono Trigger). Neither companies have created classic franchises and improved classic franchises at the same time quite like them. That's where part of the nostalgia comes from.

Also, I would hate to burst anyone's bubble, but Star pointed out that Brawl's questionaire is probably going to play a part in deciding who's in the next game. This was taken when Geno fans were at their peak. So, go figure~

I hate to burst your bubble, but Square Enix can be a legal hassle. Fortunately, Nintendo seems to understand them well. Still, Geno is definitely in Sakurai's mind as a potential newcomer. Then again, probably at least 100 characters...

 

[ChronoBound]

Pit had two games. People seem to forget Of Myths and Monsters for the Game Boy. Also, Pit had much more of a following than Geno ever did.

 

[Johnknight1]

Well I have a question for you then Chrono...

...was there anything worth remembering in Of Myths and Monsters=??? I've only played the original Kid Icarus, so I'm wondering if it is worth playing...

And I don't think there is any debating that Pit always had a bigger fanbase than Geno.

Comparing Geno to that poorly designed Skyward Sword character... urgh. Skyward Sword, from what I've played, has some awful character. DANG IT Link, hit up Zelda's number, admit you are asexual by choice/are asexual by birth and you reincarnate yourself/gay/have a thing for fairies or other mythical creatures, or GTFO!

I want this silly high school drama bit out of my Zelda game. It's not the least bit funny, and it's totally weird to play, because the designers thought it was funny. That or the humor didn't translate to English very well, or I just think their dry humor isn't very funny when I want to explore dungeons and beat things until they GO BOOM!!!...

 

[Shorts]

Oh, I know Geno isn't going to happen. I have my hopes up for my girl. But other than Krystal, and a few unlikely characters, I don't really care who gets in. I think some characters SHOULD get in, but they arent my faves.

 

[Johnknight1]

^ Let the Brawl roster stay, let Mewtwo return, keep the newest Toon Link (and his playing style; especially the playing style, in which case I will most likely re-main him!), and add Mega Man, Ridley, and K. Rool or Dixie Kong, and I'm totally cool with the roster.

Geno, having both K. Rool and Dixie Kong, Roy, Knuckles (impossible), Pac-Man, Bomberman, Simon Belmont, Little Mac, Starfy, Takamaru, Ganon, Samurai Goroh, Paper Mario, Toad, Bowser Jr., Victini/Zoroark, etc. are just icing to the already totally super awesome as a possum cake pie. Because let's be Anne Frank: PIES ARE SUPERIOR!!! HAIL PIE!!!

 

[ChronoBound]

And I don't think there is any debating that Pit always had a bigger fanbase than Geno.

Right here:

R.O.B. wasn't even in a game. Pit had only one game. Ice Climbers only had one game. And none of them were even popular!

Nevermind that ROB also had two games of his own, and was a playable character in Mario Kart DS.

 

[Hoots]

Pit had two games. People seem to forget Of Myths and Monsters for the Game Boy. Also, Pit had much more of a following than Geno ever did.

I think you're nitpicking just to nitpick. My point still stands that Sakurai clearly doesn't care as much as American forums do when it comes to relevance or importance. Pit and Zero Suit Samus were ANNOUNCEMENT characters. And regardless of how popular any of the characters are now, Sakurai knows that Geno has had a huge following. Like Shortie said, I think he will look to the production of Brawl and who was left out when it comes to the roster.

 

[ChronoBound]

Sakurai even mentioned that one of the reasons why he even included Pit was that he was popular in both Japan and America.

 

[Johnknight1]

There weren't many fanbases bigger than Pit's then ChronoBound. Pit was easily the most popular retro character for smash... possibly ever! Everyone wanted him. If only we could foresee his awful execution in smash, and how awful, just awful Pit mains are! Seriously Pit mains are like Peach Melee mains back in the mid-2000's, but ONE THOUSAND TIMES WORSE! If Pit returns, he better somehow kill those annoying kids, or turn them into respectable human beings (on the internet) who don't spam the same "la-la-laaaa!!!" attack that sucks and fails to hurt you, but they keep reusing to annoying you and to be stupid.

Also, Ice Climbers were in two games: Ice Climber, a mediocre at best launch NES game that isn't anything special at all aside from being a NES launch title, and some "Vs." game Nintendo made in an Ice Climber "Vs." thing (similarly, there was a "Vs." Balloon Fight game in this "Vs." game).

Edit: 69,000th post in the thread! YEAH-YUHHHH!!!! SUCK THAT... not literally. That's nasty. EOWW!!!

 

[Shorts]

I think you're nitpicking just to nitpick. My point still stands that Sakurai clearly doesn't care as much as American forums do when it comes to relevance or importance. Pit and Zero Suit Samus were ANNOUNCEMENT characters. And regardless of how popular any of the characters are now, Sakurai knows that Geno has had a huge following. Like Shortie said, I think he will look to the production of Brawl and who was left out when it comes to the roster.

One of the reasons I think Krystal is going to be a PRIME candidate for SSB4. Not that I think her fanbase is small/will be small later on. Just, she had quite a following during Brawl. Couple that with the fact that she fits all the requirements Sakurai is looking for, I think she's a definite stand out choice. Along with K. Rool, Goroh, Dixie, Ridley, Toad, Mac and a couple others.

Anyways, enough about Krystal. Continue with this silly Geno argument.