New Rule Pertaining To MK / Rainbow Cruise + Brinstar (?)

[Claire Diviner]

That's part of the game...it's PLAYER VS PLAYER not PLAYER VS COMPUTER

Player vs. Player and Player vs. CPU has nothing to do with randomness. If anything, the CPU goes with what logical move could work, and becomes predictable, while an actual player can change up strategies and mindgame the opponent, thus becoming far more dynamic than a CPU ever could. This is especially true for recovering.

No, the level rises is very relevant. It's the difference between deciding to jump and lose stage control or getting hit, or reaching a platform first to camp it while your opponent is dealing with the acid and being put on a platform to get easily juggled by your opponent.

I can understand if the acid rises at a very fast rate of speed, but the fact of the matter is, it doesn't. In fact, assuming the level rises at its peak, it's still slow enough for both players to react fast enough to avoid it anyway. You just have to know what to do when the acid starts to come into play.

 

[BSP]

Player vs. Computer is part of the game too

You deal with the game in regards to tripping, down B, side B, pikmin, Lylat, Smashville's platform, PS1, PS2, Yoshi's, etc.

 

[z00ted]

Player vs. Player and Player vs. CPU has nothing to do with randomness. If anything, the CPU goes with what logical move could work, and becomes predictable, while an actual player can change up strategies and mindgame the opponent, thus becoming far more dynamic than a CPU ever could. This is especially true for recovering.


I can understand if the acid rises at a very fast rate of speed, but the fact of the matter is, it doesn't. In fact, assuming the level rises at its peak, it's still slow enough for both players to react fast enough to avoid it anyway. You just have to know what to do when the acid starts to come into play.

Player vs. Computer is part of the game too

You deal with the game in regards to tripping, down B, side B, pikmin, Lylat, Smashville's platform, PS1, PS2, Yoshi's, etc.

THANK YoU!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Player-1]

Player vs. Player and Player vs. CPU has nothing to do with randomness. If anything, the CPU goes with what logical move could work, and becomes predictable, while an actual player can change up strategies and mindgame the opponent, thus becoming far more dynamic than a CPU ever could. This is especially true for recovering.


I can understand if the acid rises at a very fast rate of speed, but the fact of the matter is, it doesn't. In fact, assuming the level rises at its peak, it's still slow enough for both players to react fast enough to avoid it anyway. You just have to know what to do when the acid starts to come into play.

I'm not talking about an actual CPU opponent, I'm talking about the acid being a computer.

you don't know when the acid will stop so you don't know what you need to do to stay safe, you just have to guess.

Player vs. Computer is part of the game too

You deal with the game in regards to tripping, down B, side B, pikmin, Lylat, Smashville's platform, PS1, PS2, Yoshi's, etc.

I've already stated that tripping and the such, had there been an off switch for it, it would be off, but there isn't one so we can't do it. We do, however, have an off switch for stages so we choose to do it. Lylat's and Smashville's randomness doesn't affect gameplay nearly as much as acid does so it's a lot more negligible than it.


edit: I've already addressed all of these previously, plz read beforehand. I hate repeating myself.

 

[Tesh]

Player initiated randomness =/= computer initiated randomness. Random tripping and effects from player initiated moves aren't the same as random stage effects.

I feel like fixing the starter list and/or the distinction between starters and CPs does a whole lot more for the gap between ground hugging high tiers and jumpy mid tiers.

Having to start on Oli/ICs/Falco's best stages on game 1 hurts weaker characters alot more than maybe being able to get that hard CP game 2 and then go right back for their game 3 CP that they already got on game 1.

 

[BSP]

I've already stated that tripping and the such, had there been an off switch for it, it would be off, but there isn't one so we can't do it. We do, however, have an off switch for stages so we choose to do it. Lylat's and Smashville's randomness doesn't affect gameplay nearly as much as acid does so it's a lot more negligible than it.

That's true, but I just wanted to clarify that player vs. computer is inherent in the game too.

This is reminding me of pictochat

 

[Claire Diviner]

I'm not talking about an actual CPU opponent, I'm talking about the acid being a computer.

you don't know when the acid will stop so you don't know what you need to do to stay safe, you just have to guess.

Even if it is a guessing game, it's not something that requires you to react with lightning fast speed, since - as stated before - the acid doesn't rise fast enough to be that much of a hazard. It also doesn't stay up for very long either. Its lax speed, combined with the fact it isn't as dangerous as you make it out to be, makes Brinstar good as a counterpick. If it's that big of a problem for you, then you'll just have to play the hell out of it until you know how to handle the acid.

I've already stated that tripping and the such, had there been an off switch for it, it would be off, but there isn't one so we can't do it. We do, however, have an off switch for stages so we choose to do it. Lylat's and Smashville's randomness doesn't affect gameplay nearly as much as acid does so it's a lot more negligible than it.

What about Pokémon Stadium 1 and 2? They're quite random themselves, and each transformation changes strategies quite drastically, especially Pokémon Stadium 2. There's also Pictochat that BSP mentioned, and that stage has quite a few random hazards that are more problematic than Brinstar's acid.

 

[z00ted]

That's true, but I just wanted to clarify that player vs. computer is inherent in the game too.

This is reminding me of pictochat

When Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise start reminding people of Pictochat there is obviously some sort of bias going on.
The stages are nothing alike, even when throwing "randomness" into the equation.

 

[Player-1]

Even if it is a guessing game, it's not something that requires you to react with lightning fast speed, since - as stated before - the acid doesn't rise fast enough to be that much of a hazard. It also doesn't stay up for very long either. Its lax speed, combined with the fact it isn't as dangerous as you make it out to be, makes Brinstar good as a counterpick. If it's that big of a problem for you, then you'll just have to play the hell out of it until you know how to handle the acid.

You're not getting what I'm saying, it's not about how quickly the acid goes up, because I agree it's slow and you can react to it, I'm saying figuring out where the acid will STOP.

I am actually unsure about this and it's not covered in Razieks thread, but is there a good way to figuring out when the lava will stop? Does it stop on a dime or does it start to slow down at some point or something?

What about Pokémon Stadium 1 and 2? They're quite random themselves, and each transformation changes strategies quite drastically, especially Pokémon Stadium 2. There's also Pictochat that BSP mentioned, and that stage has quite a few random hazards that are more problematic than Brinstar's acid.

PS1 and PS2's random stage transformations get, for the most part, neutralized out by the fact that it has to go through all 4 transformations before it can repeat itself and you have plenty of time to see the stage transformation coming so you can react to it. Also, pictochat is banned as it should be because of the random hazards.

 

[BSP]

When Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise start reminding people of Pictochat there is obviously some sort of bias going on.
The stages are nothing alike, even when throwing "randomness" into the equation.

Not Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar.

P-1's examples of not knowing when and where the lava will stop reminds of not knowing which drawing is coming next on Pictochat.

Pictochat is on a whole different level though.

 

[Claire Diviner]

You're not getting what I'm saying, it's not about how quickly the acid goes up, because I agree it's slow and you can react to it, I'm saying figuring out where the acid will STOP.

I am actually unsure about this and it's not covered in Razieks thread, but is there a good way to figuring out when the lava will stop? Does it stop on a dime or does it start to slow down at some point or something?

I don't quite remember, though I'd like to say it stops on a dime. Any info on this would be appreciated though.

PS1 and PS2's random stage transformations get, for the most part, neutralized out by the fact that it has to go through all 4 transformations before it can repeat itself and you have plenty of time to see the stage transformation coming so you can react to it.

The order in which the transformations occurs, however, are random. Also, you have plenty of time to see when the acid is coming not by really looking at the acid, but by the shaking of the stage, making it more telegraphed than it already is.

P-1's examples of not knowing when and where the lava will stop reminds of not knowing which drawing is coming next on Pictochat.

While Pictochat is on a whole different plane, making the random argument by comparing the randomness with Pictochat's does help Player-1's argument... if only a bit.

 

[Player-1]

The order in which the transformations occurs, however, are random. Also, you have plenty of time to see when the acid is coming not by really looking at the acid, but by the shaking of the stage, making it more telegraphed than it already is.

The order doesn't matter as much is what I'm saying though. What does it matter if it's fire then rock or rock then fire? It really doesn't unless either you don't get through all of them (which most of the time you should seeing as how the fire, rock, and sometimes windmill it becomes a campfest since both players are in a disadvantage situation to approach) or if comes down to time and the stage transformations are put in an uneven situation (I'm unsure if they do or not, what I mean by this is say in an 8 minute span it goes through all 4 1 and 3/4s of a time and you never have a chance to get to finish that last set of transformations because of the time), either way this is, again like smashville's platform starting position or lylat's tilting, pretty negligble.

And I wasn't comparing PS1's and Brinstar's start up randomness, I was just building up credentials for PS1 because I've already stated that the warning for brinstar's acid rise isn't a very good reason for it to be banned.

 

[z00ted]

Let's get this thread back on topic, it's quite clear that all of us aren't going to come to an agreement on Brinstar.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I still feel that if Meta Knight is such a powerful character on RC vs. just about any other character - especially those with poor aerial games, why not just ban the stage? Again, it is a moving stage, and most stages of that kind tend to get banned anyway. Again, I am surprised it's tournament legal to be honest.

 

[Player-1]

"it movse" is not a good reason to ban a stage. MK does better on Brinstar than he does on RC, and some chars still don't do THAT bad against MK on RC, you just have to know the stage

 

[Claire Diviner]

I suppose so. In retrospect, it could be much worse, such as giving a character the ability to perform an infinite → death on an opponent.

 

[Sync.]

Yes please keep this on topic.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I would like to say that, whether this rule does work out or not, it does defeat the purpose of counterpicking as far as Meta Knight goes.

 

[z00ted]

No it doesn't.

Metaknight can still CP to stages that put the MU in his favor with knowledge of the other character's weaknesses.

 

[Claire Diviner]

No it doesn't.

Metaknight can still CP to stages that put the MU in his favor with knowledge of the other character's weaknesses.

Well, yes, he can, but there really isn't any stage that's disadvantageous to him, is there? If that's the case, I hardly see a difference outside of him performing even better on RC and Brinstar than on other stages.

 

[Luigi player]

no, this just goes to show how little you know about the stage. The boat wall is is pretty avoidable, just hang out on the right side of the boat, you also have platforms for landing, also if you're worried about getting infinited by D3 or something, some characters such as Diddy can't get CGed over the small slope on the left side so a character like Diddy can camp either side pretty easily (and diddy can camp the middle pretty easily too if we have good banana placements). If it's your 2nd+ loop on the stage then you can also camp the top platform before coming down for some additional time spent off the boat phase (~10 secs). Then about 20 seconds after you can jump off the left side of the boat and land on the next phase. You're then safe from walk offs/walls for the next whole entire rising transformation. You then have another wall that is SUPER easy to avoid by just staying off the same surface as the opponent. As soon as that wall is gone the right blastzone is far enough off where you can drop down and camp that wall (also avoid most hoop damage by jumping but staying below the platform). Not to mention a char like D3 can't CG most chars down slopes (and some up) which the top part is littered with. Not to mention the top part also has a lot of platforms to camp also. You have PLENTY of ways to avoid any type of walk off/wall shenangians unlike most of Delfino's transformations

Well, I knew all of that... I have enough playtime on that stage. Endless many hours of playtime in basic brawl.....
Anyway. Yes, you can avoid boat stuff, you might not get gimped/***** on the rising part, you can try to avoid conflict on the walkoff part, then it goes down again (also pretty risky, because everyone will try to KO you off the top/not let you go down (I know you can use the blocks to have another way, but it's still really stupid.


So during the whole stage you have stupid broken stuff that you try to avoid all the time.

What a great stage.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Same thing can be said for halberd.

Proposed change: If the person wants to go to RC/Brinstar, the other person either has to say they want to go MK (and then a new stage is picked) or they pick someone else and play on RC/Brinstar

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Good **** Ill and Sync.
Problem is the decision of how often this is used, which was already said.
I hate how we can have good ideas for certain regions, but we're so divided that these ideas always get picked apart. Gheb said it all right I guess.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Is the U.S. the only country that have different rulesets depending on region, or do other countries have this same dividing issue?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I suspect the rulesets in Canada vary a bit.

 

[infiniteV115]

You're not getting what I'm saying, it's not about how quickly the acid goes up, because I agree it's slow and you can react to it, I'm saying figuring out where the acid will STOP.

I am actually unsure about this and it's not covered in Razieks thread, but is there a good way to figuring out when the lava will stop? Does it stop on a dime or does it start to slow down at some point or something?

It IS covered in the thread, he assigns each possible height for the lava a number from 1-9, explains them each in detail (hell 1 and 2 are practically the same but he distinguishes between them anyway lol) and then gives the order of the heights over an 8-minute interval (cause tourney matches generally have an 8-minute time limit) and emphasizes on the more important ones.
And yes the heights are slightly random in that they're not always exactly the same height (they will vary by a few 'centimetres', if you will) but the variation in the heights is pretty much negligible.

[COLLAPSE="Read it you scrub"]Level 1 / The Bottom: This is the state the stage starts in. The acid is down as far as it can go, far below the chain in the lower right. (I use this as one of my primary visual cues for the level.)

Level 2: Up a bit higher than level 1, with most of the chain submerged, but NOT the right corner where it attaches to the wall. This is important, because you will not be saved from the blastzone at this point.

Level 3: Only slightly higher than Level 2, ALL of the chain is now submerged, and this is the first level at which the Acid WILL save you, you will contact it upon entering the magnifying glass. Alternate visual cue: Comes up to slightly below the "x" in the crossed cables.

Level 4: This one is the first where the acid is actually visible from a direct vertical perspective. It comes up to the "X" in the crossed cables in the mid-left section of the stage. Covers the blastzone and nothing else.

Level 5: Comes up to the bottom of the stage, causing it to steam. This will hit Marth if he is hanging on the ledge, since he is a tall character. Smaller characters are not affected.

Level 6: This can vary slightly, but I classify it as when the acid covers sections of the main stage. This is SOMETIMES safe, since patches do not get covered, however, this appears to be slightly inconsistent. The safest spots are directly under the main platform, and of course, on top of the platforms.

Level 7: Covers everything but the platforms. Self-explanatory.

Level 8: Covers the right platform, and patches of the left.

Level 9: Covers everything but the top platform.
(no pic)
What all this boils down to is that the acid has to be at LEAST level 3 to cover the blastzone, level 6 to hurt you on the main stage, and level 8 to hurt you on the platforms.

I did a couple sample runs to test the pattern and timing. This is one of the more accurate ones:

Bottom (8:00), 1 (7:44), 4 (7:34), 2 (7:26), 5, (7:20), 1 (7:13), 8 (7:08), 4 (7:03), Bottom (6:52), 3 (6:45), 1 (6:36), 5 (6:27), 6 (6:18), 1 (6:10), 6 (6:05), 5 (5:58), Gradual decline to Bottom (5:44), 1 (5:27), 4 (5:19), 3 (5:12), 6 (5:05), 1 (4:57), 8 (4:51), 4 (4:42), Bottom (4:38), 3 (4:30), 1 (4:19) 5 (4:11), 1 (3:56), 6 (3:51), 5 (3:46), 4 (3:39), Bottom (3:30), 1 (3:20), 4 (3:10), 6 (2:56), 1 (2:48), 6 (2:43), 4 (2:36), Bottom (2:27), 3(2:18), 1 (2:06), 5 (1:58), 1 (1:43), 6 (1:37), Gradual decline to 4 (1:25), Bottom (1:16), 1 (1:05), 4 (0:52), 2 (0:44), 6 (0:39), 1 (0:32), 9 (0:26), 4 (0:19), Bottom (0:11), 3 (0:06), 1 (0:03)
Complicated and hard to read, so I'll highlight the important stuff.

8 (~7:08) - Only parts of the left platform, and the top, are safe.
6 (~6:18) - Will cover the bottom part briefly, then recede.
6 (~6:05) - See Above.
6 (~5:05) - See Above.
8 (~4:51) - See Previous 8.
6 (~3:51) - See 6.
6 (~2:56) - See 6.
6 (~2:43) - ...
6 (~1:37) - ...
6 (~0:39) - ...
9 (~0:26) - This one is volatile and dangerous. Sometimes it's an 8, sometimes it doesn't happen. Be aware of it, especially if the match is down to the wire.

TL;DR version: Watch out for lava at 7:08, 4:51 and 0:26 ESPECIALLY. Read just above for more times.

Important disclaimer again: THESE TIMES MAY VARY SLIGHTLY. PAY ATTENTION.[/COLLAPSE]

The pink. LOOK AT IT.
And the lava stops when it gets to its predetermined height.

 

[Player-1]

It IS covered in the thread, he assigns each possible height for the lava a number from 1-9, explains them each in detail (hell 1 and 2 are practically the same but he distinguishes between them anyway lol) and then gives the order of the heights over an 8-minute interval (cause tourney matches generally have an 8-minute time limit) and emphasizes on the more important ones.
And yes the heights are slightly random in that they're not always exactly the same height (they will vary by a few 'centimetres', if you will) but the variation in the heights is pretty much negligible.

[COLLAPSE="Read it you scrub"]Level 1 / The Bottom: This is the state the stage starts in. The acid is down as far as it can go, far below the chain in the lower right. (I use this as one of my primary visual cues for the level.)

Level 2: Up a bit higher than level 1, with most of the chain submerged, but NOT the right corner where it attaches to the wall. This is important, because you will not be saved from the blastzone at this point.

Level 3: Only slightly higher than Level 2, ALL of the chain is now submerged, and this is the first level at which the Acid WILL save you, you will contact it upon entering the magnifying glass. Alternate visual cue: Comes up to slightly below the "x" in the crossed cables.

Level 4: This one is the first where the acid is actually visible from a direct vertical perspective. It comes up to the "X" in the crossed cables in the mid-left section of the stage. Covers the blastzone and nothing else.

Level 5: Comes up to the bottom of the stage, causing it to steam. This will hit Marth if he is hanging on the ledge, since he is a tall character. Smaller characters are not affected.

Level 6: This can vary slightly, but I classify it as when the acid covers sections of the main stage. This is SOMETIMES safe, since patches do not get covered, however, this appears to be slightly inconsistent. The safest spots are directly under the main platform, and of course, on top of the platforms.

Level 7: Covers everything but the platforms. Self-explanatory.

Level 8: Covers the right platform, and patches of the left.

Level 9: Covers everything but the top platform.
(no pic)
What all this boils down to is that the acid has to be at LEAST level 3 to cover the blastzone, level 6 to hurt you on the main stage, and level 8 to hurt you on the platforms.

I did a couple sample runs to test the pattern and timing. This is one of the more accurate ones:

Bottom (8:00), 1 (7:44), 4 (7:34), 2 (7:26), 5, (7:20), 1 (7:13), 8 (7:08), 4 (7:03), Bottom (6:52), 3 (6:45), 1 (6:36), 5 (6:27), 6 (6:18), 1 (6:10), 6 (6:05), 5 (5:58), Gradual decline to Bottom (5:44), 1 (5:27), 4 (5:19), 3 (5:12), 6 (5:05), 1 (4:57), 8 (4:51), 4 (4:42), Bottom (4:38), 3 (4:30), 1 (4:19) 5 (4:11), 1 (3:56), 6 (3:51), 5 (3:46), 4 (3:39), Bottom (3:30), 1 (3:20), 4 (3:10), 6 (2:56), 1 (2:48), 6 (2:43), 4 (2:36), Bottom (2:27), 3(2:18), 1 (2:06), 5 (1:58), 1 (1:43), 6 (1:37), Gradual decline to 4 (1:25), Bottom (1:16), 1 (1:05), 4 (0:52), 2 (0:44), 6 (0:39), 1 (0:32), 9 (0:26), 4 (0:19), Bottom (0:11), 3 (0:06), 1 (0:03)
Complicated and hard to read, so I'll highlight the important stuff.

8 (~7:08) - Only parts of the left platform, and the top, are safe.
6 (~6:18) - Will cover the bottom part briefly, then recede.
6 (~6:05) - See Above.
6 (~5:05) - See Above.
8 (~4:51) - See Previous 8.
6 (~3:51) - See 6.
6 (~2:56) - See 6.
6 (~2:43) - ...
6 (~1:37) - ...
6 (~0:39) - ...
9 (~0:26) - This one is volatile and dangerous. Sometimes it's an 8, sometimes it doesn't happen. Be aware of it, especially if the match is down to the wire.

TL;DR version: Watch out for lava at 7:08, 4:51 and 0:26 ESPECIALLY. Read just above for more times.

Important disclaimer again: THESE TIMES MAY VARY SLIGHTLY. PAY ATTENTION.[/COLLAPSE]

The pink. LOOK AT IT.
And the lava stops when it gets to its predetermined height.

you obviously didn't understand what I was saying because only one sentence in that paragraph actually addressed what I said.


And my response to it: IT IS RANDOM!!!!! WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT IT?!

 

[ぱみゅ]

So yeah... it looks community has already decided to close their minds into smaller stagelists regardless Meta Knight...

It used to be a dividing discussion, but now it looks like there is a huge majority on one side...

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

If by random you mean "they will vary by a few centimeters" is that seriously enough randomness to consider the stage more random than smashville's whole platform spawning on the opposite side? The height is definitely consistent enough to not be game breaking in nature. I think the burden of proof is on you now player 1 to show that a few centimeters justifies banning.

 

[John12346]

P-1, if you're going to argue that the acid being SLIGHTLY RANDOM is the criteria for ban, then you're going to have to respond to this:

Ah, and here we come into a problem.

Some people believe the acid is not easy to avoid, but there are others who believe it is. It's true that the acid can cover a wide range of the stage making the match a bit too intense to handle, but is that enough to eclipse the fact that Brinstar has THREE different ways of alerting you that the acid is coming?

At this point, it's kind of subjective, so I can't really convince you of anything further.

However, I don't agree that the reactable randomness should play any factor in having the stage banned, although I can agree that the acid's effects on the battle can serve as a reasoning for ban, even if I/others don't agree with it, so there we have it, I guess...

Randomness is inherent in a lot of legal stages; it is by no means a criteria for a ban as it can be acceptable in cases where it runs on a timer, gives you fair warning, etc.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Larger stagelists are really better. MK is good EVERYWHERE, so being able to go to a more comfortable stage against him would be better.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Although I think this rule is a good idea and something worth trying, there is one thing I'd like to point out. This rule hampers MK's use as a secondary rather severely. For instance, suppose someone plays Fox, using MK to cover their bad match ups. Then, if I lose game 1, I can switch to Pika and RC game 2. Since the Fox can't use MK with the stage chosen, this makes game 2 pretty much a free win. (Not a perfect example, since the Fox would likely ban RC and make me use Brinstar in this instance, but you get the idea.)

I'd suggest either dropping that part of the rule entirely, or letting the loser of the previous game re-choose their counter pick should the other player switch to MK. Thoughts?

 

[Sanji Himura]

I'm one of those who see that the loser of the first game has too much power going into the second game. If one thinks about it, the standard procedure in a Smash match is that the loser has both character and stage counterpick power while the winner may counter with character.

The rules, as written, only address the loser of the game at hand, so it doesn't answer three important questions:

1. What happens when RC/Brinstar is selected with a player, who won the first game, who is already a MK main selected MK for the second match?

2. What happens when a MK main who lost the first game counterpicks RC/Brinstar?

3. How would the above rule be enforced? For example, what penalties would be had if the rule is broken.

I'd suggest either dropping that part of the rule entirely, or letting the loser of the previous game re-choose their counter pick should the other player switch to MK. Thoughts?

If anything, I would suggest that the winner must stay the same character, but the loser may only counterpick stage or character, but never both. This rule has some success in the Soul Calibur community where some stages has "Ring Out" areas, and bringing it to Brawl would eliminate 95% of the nonsense that we have today involving MK. Who knows, it might make him a halfway viable character.

 

[Tesh]

Wow some of you can't read at all.

 

[Player-1]

P-1, if you're going to argue that the acid being SLIGHTLY RANDOM is the criteria for ban, then you're going to have to respond to this:


Randomness is inherent in a lot of legal stages; it is by no means a criteria for a ban as it can be acceptable in cases where it runs on a timer, gives you fair warning, etc.

no one ever answered my question about how the acid stops, does it stop on the dime? Does it start to slow down at a drastic rate? Does it slow down at a slow rate? I don't I could continue this argument until this question is answered

 

[Claire Diviner]

no one ever answered my question about how the acid stops, does it stop on the dime? Does it start to slow down at a drastic rate? Does it slow down at a slow rate? I don't I could continue this argument until this question is answered

Just checked. It stops on a dime. I hope this ceases your argument.

 

[Player-1]

no, that's what I thought, but wasn't sure. That helps my argument because you can't tell when the acid will stop. The exact order of the acid doesn't follow that pattern 100% so it can still vary and you won't know when to jump or to stay on the ground.

 

[z00ted]

Although I think this rule is a good idea and something worth trying, there is one thing I'd like to point out. This rule hampers MK's use as a secondary rather severely. For instance, suppose someone plays Fox, using MK to cover their bad match ups. Then, if I lose game 1, I can switch to Pika and RC game 2. Since the Fox can't use MK with the stage chosen, this makes game 2 pretty much a free win. (Not a perfect example, since the Fox would likely ban RC and make me use Brinstar in this instance, but you get the idea.)

I'd suggest either dropping that part of the rule entirely, or letting the loser of the previous game re-choose their counter pick should the other player switch to MK. Thoughts?

Thanks for feedback.
The rule is a very interesting idea, might take this into consideration to be honest.

I'm one of those who see that the loser of the first game has too much power going into the second game. If one thinks about it, the standard procedure in a Smash match is that the loser has both character and stage counterpick power while the winner may counter with character.

The rules, as written, only address the loser of the game at hand, so it doesn't answer three important questions:

1. What happens when RC/Brinstar is selected with a player, who won the first game, who is already a MK main selected MK for the second match?

2. What happens when a MK main who lost the first game counterpicks RC/Brinstar?

3. How would the above rule be enforced? For example, what penalties would be had if the rule is broken.

If anything, I would suggest that the winner must stay the same character, but the loser may only counterpick stage or character, but never both. This rule has some success in the Soul Calibur community where some stages has "Ring Out" areas, and bringing it to Brawl would eliminate 95% of the nonsense that we have today involving MK. Who knows, it might make him a halfway viable character.

The rule already covers the first two you mentioned, it can't happen because the rule restricts it.

Regarding rule three, Sync and I could come up with something.
Likely a loss/redo of the game, considering you didn't know the rules beforehand.

 

[salaboB]

Would it be better to just simplify and say: If someone plays MK, their opponent picks the stage?

(If both play MK normal stage pick applies)

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

I'd suggest either dropping that part of the rule entirely, or letting the loser of the previous game re-choose their counter pick should the other player switch to MK. Thoughts?

I literally posted this like.. 10 posts earlier. So I obviously support this.