New Ideas, New Combos

[tdk_Samurai]

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http://s861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/Bericson1989/?action=view&current=fsad.flv

not the upsmash to nair, I'm sure *****es do that all the time, but like the pillar type thing

I have been wondering for a long time if pika can do a pillar type combo, so I would always try upthrow fair into regrab, but that never worked, then I did this the other day and was like I wonder if that actually combos or if my friend could have naired out of it or something so I took it to training.

this does a nice 35 - 45 damage

now what I'm wondering is, do people just do this all the time and I haven't noticed.

and do you think fox and falco could easily di this or... what do people think

edit: as you can see I tried to embed it but it wouldn't work so I had to just post the direct link sorry :-(

 

[N64]

I'll usually do this on spacies' shields, as they'll sometime try to punish you after your rising uair, and then get hit by your falling uair. After a uair connects on a spacie, there are generally better options to another uair (unless it's all you can hit with) namely grab, usmash, and at higher percents nair or bair (prob will kill). You normally don't pillar like that because they can DI out of it meaning you'll get 2 mayyyybe 3 uairs max.

 

[tdk_Samurai]

they can DI out of it meaning you'll get 2 mayyyybe 3 uairs max.

NO YOU!!! 10 :-(es

 

[AXE 09]

well it's good that you're thinking about things like this, tdk =) but sad to say... yes, they can (and almost always will) DI out of this =(

alright, so my head's still stuck on this gimping thing, and i've thought about 1 thing in general

after a Bthrow on a spacie, i kinda realized something...

if i decide to stay on the stage, it will not result in a kill. seriously, i don't think that i've EVER, in my entire history of melee, gotten a gimp on a spacie after bthrowing them off the stage, and deciding to not jump out after them

i've definitely gotten many kills when i jump out after them and try to do something

so for now, until i think of something else, or if you guys can find some sort of flawless plan... i think that i will ALWAYS jump out to try to hit my opponent after i bthrow them off the stage.

when i think about it also, i don't think i've ever gotten punished for it. the only times that i've gotten punished for jumping out after them is when i suicide. i can't think of a time where i jump out after them, miss, and they punish me. i think i've always made it back to the stage, even when i miss (unless i suicide).

i think that you CAN be punished, but most players just won't. maybe they're scared or something? idk lol.

but... for now... i'm always gonna jump out after spacies after a bthrow -_- when i stay on the stage, it never results in a kill

 

[tdk_Samurai]

axe, your prolly one of the most supportive people on these boards fo sho, like I half expected people to be like wow noob thats day one stuff

and ICG private messaged me, and I was like wtf, why didn't he post, and then I was like, oh yea, the KK thing. lol

idk, jumping out is nice, but if you stay on, you can react, and ftilt a low recovery, and doing something that idk what would be best(jump tailspike?) to a high recovery. IMHO I feel that doing this is much better against people who have caught on your little trickery, like my friend tomacawk will never get ****ed up by a pika jumping out again, and honestly, your set between you and mango at pats house, I think he caught on really quick, and if you would have just stayed on the ledge tilting low recoverys, doing something to high recoverys, and re back throw whiffed edgegaurds,( because only way they are getting by is prolly fantasm, and thats got some landing lag) then eventually I think he would have tried to fantasm lower and lower, and would have gotten battlefielded, but idk, your the master pika, not myself, I'm just trying to throw out ideas of what I think.

and not only will people who catch on, get around your tricksies, they will start making you wish you would have stayed on the ledge, ask tomacawk, but then again, maybe its just me messing up. But I usually just stay on the ledge, but surprise *****es once in a while with it, and when they are surprise I get a kill.

Also, story time, I kept trying to bthrow > jump> jolt > tailspike this kid at a tourney, but I have no tech skill, so I kept dropzone thunder jolting, lol and then I'd die

 

[AXE 09]

LOL tdk, you're awesome and i understand what you mean, but it's like...

if i decide to stay on the stage, a lot of times i can get a guaranteed hit on them, but it never results in a kill (unless they're at a high percent, then i can just usmash and they die).

i'm talking about instances where you bthrow an opponent off the stage with low percent though. if i don't jump after them, it won't result in a kill, whereas if i go after them, it'll result in a kill a lot of times, but not all the time.

against mango, just from watching, i know that he figured me out, and the way i was jumping after him wasn't working. but when i decided to just stay on the stage and wait for him, things turned out a lot worse than when i jumped after him. even though i missed all the time when i went after him, i still didn't get punished for missing, and that's one of my biggest concerns

 

[tdk_Samurai]

well if that garunteed hit is an f tilt like 2:23 in game 3, then they have no choice but to fire bird, and then you get your spike.
but there are some instances like 1:32 in game 2, where yea, you could have easily gotten a hit against that recovery but idk how possible a gimp was going to be, I guess its a risk assesment or rather a reward assesment, like is it worth garunteeing 10 damage instead of chancing a kill in this situation kinda thing. And what would you have done at 1:32, only think I can think of is attempt a tail spike and hope they have to firebird.

what do you think about fairing instead of jolting, like off the top of my head I'm thinking there is less downtime for you to be able to tail spike sooner, but idk the area it covers compared to the jolt

also, axe, quit playing games with my heart, like when the pats house vids came out, I'll have you know that I quit watching 2 and 3 when it was your one stock to mangos 3, and my friend told me the next day at school about how awesome you did and I thought he was being sarcastic

 

[tdk_Samurai]

ok, I learned 2 things today, 1 which I'm sure most of you knew, another which I'm sure most of us were sure as a joke, but never actually felt was 100 percent true.

So I am planning on making a stat list of what important moves combo into other important moves at what percentages, and I was trying to do upsmash into upsmash, but couldn't get it to combo past like 22 ish, but I did an upsmash, and the guy barely went up, and I was like wtf what did I do, so I experimented, and apearently if you stand jlust far enough away that someone else could jump in between you two(they would move you just a little) then your upsmash knockback is reduced. This is the one that I'm sure alot of people knew, but nobody told me (shakes fist angrily) so I'm putting it up here for any new people kinda like me that don't know this.

To give an animation of the difference, I tested out killing hits on a fox on FD, a fully charged up smash(I know you'll never get fully charged, but I didn't wanna screw data up by acidentally holding an upsmash for a frame once in a while in this test, so I charged them all fully that way I know nothing was given more/less power than it should have been.) from 59 to 72 percent, spacing the smash different was the difference between whether fox died or not. Man, I wonder how many games I lost because I spaced an upsmash wrong and could have won :-(.

the other one that we joked about one time, but noone confirmed what the whole shield grabing having less range than upsmash out of shield, and upsmash OOS does in fact have more range :-(

 

[AXE 09]

good stuff tdk =) i've actually known about both of those, but the thing is... i didn't know exactly WHERE the sour spots were on the usmash. i've kinda always thought that it was something similar to how roy's fsmash works. it's the strongest when they're closer to you, but when they're further away, it deals less damage

also, thanks to Taj and TeeAyEye (Tai), i learned something else new. Taj told me that somewhere in the Mewtwo character specific boards, he made a list of every character concerning what percents they die at from an up throw. he made me think that i wanted to do something similar, except with pikachu's usmash. so basically, i started seeing what percents each character dies at with pikachu's usmash

one thing had me very confused though...

ok, so what happened was... i Usmashed fox and it killed him on FD at exactly 76% percent, right? well, when i did the exact same thing at the exact same percent, he DIDN'T die, and i was like wtf???? i made sure that i didn't get the sourspot on the usmash or anything

so this made me think... i know that in brawl, when a move is stale, it's knockback is also reduced, but i DIDN'T think that this was the same in melee. this made me rethink about things

so i talked to Tai about it, and he told me something that i didn't know

hitstun is calculated AFTER damage is given

kind of embarassing that i didn't know this after playing for so long...

so basically, a completely unstale usmash can deal up to 19% damage. hitting a fox with this on FD when he is at 76% will kill him, with his final damage being 95% (76 + 19)

HOWEVER

a completely STALE usmash can deal as little as 9% damage. if you hit fox with an unstale Usmash, it will be able to kill him (if the fox doesn't DI) at 76%, BUT if the Usmash is stale and you hit him at 76%, fox won't even come close to dying.

a completely stale usmash (dealing 9% damage) will kill fox at 86%, leaving his final damage at 95%

moral of this body of text:

if you Usmash fox and the damage after you hit him is 95% or higher, then he will die off the top of FD (if he doesn't DI) because the knockback of a move is calculated AFTER the damage is given

so technically, when a move is stale, your opponent won't be knocked back as far as if it wasn't stale


has everyone known about this already or is it just me who didn't know?


EDIT:

wtf????? i'm officially confused. so apparently, when you charge a smash attack, not only does it increase the damage that it will deal, but it also increases the knockback given.

so fox dies off the top if you Usmash him and his damage after the usmash is 95%, right? so logically, i thought since a fully charged unstale Usmash deals 25% damage, fox would die at 70%. but... it turns out that it kills him as early as 48% o.O leaving him with a final damage of 73%

i'm learning so much right now lol


EDIT:EDIT:

so apparently... an unstale usmash deals 19% if you hit fox while he's facing you, but will only deal 18% if you hit him when he's facing away from you. lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

^ I already knew all of that.

 

[AXE 09]

i feel like i should've known this years ago lol. wow i'm a noob

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nobody knows anything about smash's mechanics.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

magus

but let's show him frame data next that will fun. But I guess I will go check something out in a little bit about pikachu's side-B. Because as pichu(sorry) a fully charged side-B does 39% and kills a puff that missed rest at 25% on any stage even in the middle of dreamland64. but if you were hit just up-smash when you come back.

Maybe at very low percents pikachu's side-B would be better to use for damage

 

[AXE 09]

pika's forward B deals 29% (this is pikachu's strongest attack), BUT it doesn't have the vertical knockback like Usmash does, which means that Usmash is more likely to kill

what i do whenever jiggs misses a rest...

if she is at a very low percent, i always forward B for more damage, but if she's at like mid-high percents, i charge Usmash hoping for the kill