New (higher) tier list ranking?

[Natch]

Characters i see going up FROM THIER CURRENT POSITION:

-Fox (there metagame has improved alot)

-Gannondorf (he has become a good counter pick against snake the most broken character)

-Kirby (Hardly any bad match ups, good DI for a light wieght and decent kill power)

-Lucas (There arnt many Lucas mains in the us and uk but in japan there are LOADS and if you havent seen them play you better cause being able to follow Mk out off the stage with powerfull spikes or killing snakes and D3's at 90% is no small feet, plus he has a very nice recovery if used right)

-Luigi (Has a few good players useing him the only one i can name is Boss but he has insane kill power an amazing recovery and crazy air priority)

-Zamus (zero suit is a character to be feared she has a spike that only heavy gods have like ike and dorf, amazing DI if you know how to, can escape the infigays like D3 and falco, decent kill power, cruel combos, is very adaptable to different stages/senarios unlike some characters that cant do anything much without a neutral stage and a very good spaceing tool.)

-Toon Link (Toons metagame has improved ALOT i know i helped with it he has alot of tricks, combos, good recovery, mindgames and tactics his match ups are evening out with none of them insanely unwinnable tho some of the less experienced players have trouble killing)

=======

i acctually think mk will move down abit because of the amount of time and effort the other characters are putting in to take him down as for the rest i dont know but these are my views no one elses and your welcome to disagree

MK is still the best character in the game. He ain't goin' down. Who would take his place? Falco? Snake? DDD? G&W?

MK's dominance is just too great for him to go DOWN on the tier list.

I question the validity of Fox, Gdorf, Lucas, and Luigi. I believe Fox may go up, but be more specific. Also, there are better counters to Snake(DDD, for instance). I just can't see how Gdorf can counter Snake. I can simply run away and 'Nade you the whole match.

I mained Lucas for 8 months(die hard Lucas main) and he's got tricks, but he quickly reaches a peak once you learn him. Luigi, I just don't know a lot about.

Your other guesses look valid though. Explain to me more about Fox-realistically, he seems to be the best canidate to go up. Well, him or Luigi, to be honest.

 

[Kokaloo]

She's only getting better with all these AT's found at a very rapid pace.
I think she'll go up, and probably stay up.

 

[Nefarious B]

Ya I consider and probably will always see Ganon as the worst character in brawl.

 

[ohaiduhg]

Tier Lists represent matchups, tournament results+a reflection of the current metagame.

Okay, all characters have matchups. Some characters do better against some characters than others. Some characters have lots of good matchups-others have lots of not so good ones. This is where the Tier List starts. If you have good matchups, expect to be higher on the tier list.

Next comes tournament results-if a certain player comes along, and starts doing really well with someone, they may strart a trend. More people may use that character. For instance, Falco may suddenly rise a bunch in popularity. Now, you'll see more Ice Climbers and Kirbys running around to counteract the rise of Falco. [Note, this is just an example, but bear with me here.] Ice Climbers and Kirby would therefore, rise on the tier list next time it came out.

Have you ever play an Olimar before? Really good, isn't he? He actually jumped 8 spots last tier list. Look how few people use him! Now, he has the potential to go even higher on the tier list. But so few people use him, he doesn't. However, his sheer potential was so high, he moved up because of it.

Now, it's entirely possible for a character to have a good matchup against a top tier, and yet be below them on the tier list. Kirby, for example, has a good matchup against Falco. Unfortunately, G&W gives him problems(so does Marth). That keeps him lower on the tier list.


So, it's entirely possible for YOU GUYS to go and make Zamus rise on the tier list. She moved up 5 spots from the last tier last. Now it's up to you guys to make her rise more.

Oh, btw, you probably know this, but as an outside observer....use those items. Learn Jump Canceled Item Toss, Z-Dropping/Z-Catching, Airdodge Drops/Airdodge Catches, and Glide Tossing. You can even do the movements for a DACUS and throw items.

Learn all of these-I am of the belief that items are pivotal in the metagame, and those who know how to use them to deadly effectiveness will be the winners. I would suggest learning Diddy/Rob/Snake as secondaries, so you have more, different experiences using items. Maybe not all 3 of those, but those guys are 3 characters who do well in tournaments, and have a good item game. This is no coincidence, trust me.

You gave a pretty good summary of how the tier list works in general.

However,

You mention her items as the thing to make her rise in tier ranks. In my opinion, that makes it pretty obvious you are an observer and not a ZSS main. It is a good observation, but there are so many other levels to her game. You also don't say that Diddy, ROB and Snake respawn their items. ZSS loses here and doesn't get them back, and her items are sorta of neutral such as items you can turn on with the Item Select. Diddy's bananas have trip and wobble chains you chan play with and really it is limited to Diddy's combo-ing skills and maybe a couple other characters maybe controlling his nanaz. Using the power suit pieces you are just using very powerful hits. Granted, she does have a whip which works quite well with them. You mentioned the tech sliding and such, but if you are going to mention her items you have to mention the range with which her SideB can follow.

Zero Suit Samus is the only character with a move that paralyzes. Not only that, but she gets 2... 2! forms of doing so. A projectile that can be charged, and is slow so you can follow it up and spam it and a Dsmash with surprisingly good range. If you can paralyze people beneath a stage and stage spike with it. You can also gimp juggle a good amount of characters with her Fair following the Dsmash off the edge. You can paralyze through a good amount of recovery attempts with the right timing. Her moves all have very specific ranges and functions after the Dsmash stun.

Fair
Bair
Side B
Fsmash
Grab

Also, her DownB spike can follow the stun if you hit it at a very specific point that the person, essentially, has to fall into. Still, it's a possibility.

ZSS is covered in KO moves.

-Zamus (zero suit is a character to be feared she has a spike that only heavy gods have like ike and dorf, amazing DI if you know how to, can escape the infigays like D3 and falco, decent kill power, cruel combos, is very adaptable to different stages/senarios unlike some characters that cant do anything much without a neutral stage and a very good spaceing tool.)

I don't think many people understand ZSS to the full extent. She doesn't have just her Down B Flip Spike Kick. Her Up B is, imo, the most valid spiking option she has. Her Up B has a lot more range and comes out with trickier prediction. If you are getting spiked by the flip spike you are showing how obvious it is you have never played a ZSS. You don't chase her between the edge.lol

Even her stall-and-fall can spike at that range.

Ya I consider and probably will always see Ganon as the worst character in brawl.

+Heavy, Strong, A spike that has a more potential for a rocket KO than spike.
-Slowest, worst recovery, poor jumping, no reflector nor projectile, no range on attacks...

I'm going to have to agree with you on that.

Edit:

Your other guesses look valid though. Explain to me more about Fox-realistically, he seems to be the best canidate to go up. Well, him or Luigi, to be honest.

I think that he still great, but people coming from Melee Fox to Brawl Fox were like WT****?! Soooo it's all just a matter of everyone getting the hang of Brawl Fox. He has Foxcopter/Foxicopter recovery now.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

I'll tell you right now that I got 2-1'd in pools by this Lucas player.
This is an example of inexperience in a matchup.
Tournament ZSS mains need moar matchup exp guize. We must place higher and make her high tier!

Well, in my opinion, Lucas is quite the challenge for ZSS as he's great at pillaring, which takes advantage of one of ZSS's weaknesses: being attack from below. Lucas can dair you into submission, force a wake up with dtilt and usmash. He has plenty other options.

 

[ohaiduhg]

Well, in my opinion, Lucas is quite the challenge for ZSS as he's great at pillaring, which takes advantage of one of ZSS's weaknesses: being attack from below. Lucas can dair you into submission, force a wake up with dtilt and usmash. He has plenty other options.

ZSS can SideB Lucas into submission and gimp him into oblivion with Fair or Nair. Unlike PK Fire the plasma whip doesn't suffer such bad recoil DI and cool down lag. It's also easy to avoid his MeteorSmash with her recovery being a choice between the longest tether and a flip kick with frames of invincibility.

Who's side are you on??:O We need all the support we can get. D:

 

[Zero]

lol not this side thing again >.>

 

[noradseven]

neutral B is ZSS's second worst move in my opinion after f-smash darkwater

Its been proven time and time again you don't get to be pro by knowing the best combos glitches and tricks, you get to be the best though the basics and solid strategy, though I do need to get better at down B spiking.

That combined, with the one thing that most players don't think about the move degrade stack, can let you win most the time, seriously Ill abuse the blank out of back air, until its like 6-7 of the moves in the stack once you get above 140% if I still can't kill you Ill mess around and though some moves you will probably block, empty the stack and whammo back airs again, its quite devastating, especially when you alternate it out with her other kills moves of over B's, and u-airs and do them, in a circle (no one has noticed I do this yet, plus I play extremely safe with all of them and the rapid style switches though alot of people off guard).

ZSS can SideB Lucas into submission and gimp him into oblivion with Fair or Nair. Unlike PK Fire the plasma whip doesn't suffer such bad recoil DI and cool down lag. It's also easy to avoid his MeteorSmash with her recovery being a choice between the longest tether and a flip kick with frames of invincibility.

Who's side are you on??:O We need all the support we can get. D:

Play a lucas that is not terrible, his up B is a problem for ZSS and his disjointed hit boxes allow your over B to be punished badly, and with his all his weird *** glitches he can be quite trouble some though over all I would still put it slightly in ZSS's favor.

I expect falcon, fox(he should be high), and Link to go up.

Also I still say 50% chance after M2K leaves the scene that MK drops loses his position of best character in 6months or less, yes I know there are other good MK players.

 

[oOJaseOo]

Notice i said from thier current postions didnt say they gunna rocket past mk

I think snake will probs go lvl with mk causeing mk to lose his own tier

As for fox its already been said his recovery has improved alot, he has very nasty combos one of which has to be perfectly shielded to escape, his upsmash is broken and dont forget it easier to kill upwards compared to the sideways aproach.

Gannon has an advantage over falcon his upair destroys its a very powerfull gimping move plus if he trips then thats a stock gone and as for against snake a good gannon brings the match up to 60:40 in snakes favour ofc there are better options theres always a better option but if gannon gets close he is one of only 3 characters that can over power snake the other 2 are ike and luigi marth kind of can with the tip but meh, but i can see why some would doubt my methods but honestly when i go against snakes i go luigi they try to counter pick with mk or sumin so i go gannon they switch back to snake thinking oh this will be easy i 2 stock them and these arnt noob snakes the one i last beat is ranked 7th in the uk though i have to admit he doesnt have much experience with gannondorfs, again my views disagree if you like i just wont rlly care.

Oh and if you dont belive me about luigi over powering snake http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEZPTOgsc-o happy birthday this one to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjVrS2-I1YU as i said before the only luigi i know is boss so yea

 

[Hence]

Also I still say 50% chance after M2K leaves the scene that MK drops loses his position of best character in 6months or less, yes I know there are other good MK players.

What?

M2K isn't leaving the brawl scene, though he may come to my state and condition Ohio to be the best for brawl in the country.

 

[ohaiduhg]

neutral B is ZSS's second worst move in my opinion after f-smash darkwater

Its been proven time and time again you don't get to be pro by knowing the best combos glitches and tricks, you get to be the best though the basics and solid strategy, though I do need to get better at down B spiking.

That combined, with the one thing that most players don't think about the move degrade stack, can let you win most the time, seriously Ill abuse the blank out of back air, until its like 6-7 of the moves in the stack once you get above 140% if I still can't kill you Ill mess around and though some moves you will probably block, empty the stack and whammo back airs again, its quite devastating, especially when you alternate it out with her other kills moves of over B's, and u-airs and do them, in a circle (no one has noticed I do this yet, plus I play extremely safe with all of them and the rapid style switches though alot of people off guard).

@NeutralB being terrible, that sounds like I did about half a year ago. If you learn to space and abuse it, people can't charge you properly. It puts her from immediate defense to offensive. You just have to learn the cool down lag of it and what you can follow it up by. NeutralB and SideB (together)are her controlling moves, and I would compare them together to Pit and arrows in importance.

Fsmash is very very useful as a finishing move after Dsmash. Great Knock-Back+Fully Charged under their paralyses and it hits hard. It hits behind you kinda so its like... I mean... it isn't all that bad out of stun gun use?

I think snake will probs go lvl with mk causeing mk to lose his own tie

I think it would make sense for Snake to go up to SS tier with Meta. Falco, Diddy, King Dedede, G&W, and Marth could move into S tier. Maybe then a lot of promotions could be made.

 

[Honeythief]

Fsmash is very very useful as a finishing move after Dsmash. Great Knock-Back+Fully Charged under their paralyses and it hits hard. It hits behind you kinda so its like... I mean... it isn't all that bad out of stun gun use?

Not my impression at all, unless there's a sweetspot I missed or something...


And yeah, ZSS will move up the tier list, and go to SS tier once I've mastered and and start winning everything and...

Stupid jokes aside, I think she can go up, she has a lot of potential, but few people are using her. Her time will come sometime soon I think though. It seems to me that the gap between her and snake or metaknight is getting smaller will help. The MU against Falco is problematic though. I think she can easily get to C tier, and maybe bottom of B if things get going well.

 

[ThreeSided]

@NeutralB being terrible, that sounds like I did about half a year ago. If you learn to space and abuse it, people can't charge you properly. It puts her from immediate defense to offensive. You just have to learn the cool down lag of it and what you can follow it up by. NeutralB and SideB (together)are her controlling moves, and I would compare them together to Pit and arrows in importance.

Fsmash is very very useful as a finishing move after Dsmash. Great Knock-Back+Fully Charged under their paralyses and it hits hard. It hits behind you kinda so its like... I mean... it isn't all that bad out of stun gun use?

I agree with stun gun, but Fsmash? It's just horrible. You're better off KOing with Side-B after Dsmash, or more likely, (since side-b will probably be stale) Bair. Fsmash just has too much lag, and just isn't that powerful. I could actually imagine it being used as a gimping move with the weak-tip while they're offstage, but then you're better off using side-b or an aerial for that. But then, it's always good to switch around to prevent it from being dodged, so if they don't see you trying to jump to SH side-b or an aerial, then Fsmash might - MIGHT - make a good surprise attack. But never on stage.

 

[sasook]

Jase, thank you for using proper punctuation. It really was a joy to read your post.

norad, Link is not going up lol. We have barely any tourney results at all.

Darkwater, fsmash is her worst move. You mentioned using it after stun for KOs - fair, bair, & plasma whip are all better options, always. Honestly, even Snakeee, Faded, Claw, Raretruffle, Dazwa, Warpstatus, or any really big named tourney ZSS will tell you the same thing.

Oh, and don't accuse people of taking sides. You can't call out someone for being on the other side just for acknowledging the opponent's advantages.

 

[ohaiduhg]

Jase, thank you for using proper punctuation. It really was a joy to read your post.

norad, Link is not going up lol. We have barely any tourney results at all.

Darkwater, fsmash is her worst move. You mentioned using it after stun for KOs - fair, bair, & plasma whip are all better options, always. Honestly, even Snakeee, Faded, Claw, Raretruffle, Dazwa, Warpstatus, or any really big named tourney ZSS will tell you the same thing.

Oh, and don't accuse people of taking sides. You can't call out someone for being on the other side just for acknowledging the opponent's advantages.

Dsmash at the right point and hit it correctly. It has different range than the SideB. The SideB has a pushing effect to the sweet spot and sometimes you aren't at the right distance to work that so Fsmash works better in some cases. Her moves after Dsmash are extremely situational and each one has a purpose. If you Dsmash stun close to the edge and they stay level with you the Fsmash is perfect because the side B usually won't hit around that area properly. If they get stunned upwards or downwards blahblahblah you know the rest. Not to mentioin the freshness of Fsmash.

I just didn't really like what he was saying. A lot of mindgame this and that type of talk. Probably should have ignored it.:\ Anyways, sorry.

 

[Dohz]

Her fsmash is terrible. I don't even like throwing it out by accident because it completely messes up her flow. It's also very weak for a smash move and you're better off using another move for the kill.

 

[Hence]

Her fsmash is terrible. I don't even like throwing it out by accident because it completely messes up her flow. It's also very weak for a smash move and you're better off using another move for the kill.

Okay.

 

[Negi Kun1]

I have to agree that her fsmash is just horrible, I sometimes mistakenly do it on wifi when I try to shorthop a fair or do a dash attack. Horrible!

Although I myself LOVE the stun gun. I've grown quite fond of it and have integrated it into my playstyle and it seems to work really well, cept for G&W of course.

 

[ThreeSided]

Dsmash at the right point and hit it correctly. It has different range than the SideB. The SideB has a pushing effect to the sweet spot and sometimes you aren't at the right distance to work that so Fsmash works better in some cases. Her moves after Dsmash are extremely situational and each one has a purpose. If you Dsmash stun close to the edge and they stay level with you the Fsmash is perfect because the side B usually won't hit around that area properly. If they get stunned upwards or downwards blahblahblah you know the rest. Not to mentioin the freshness of Fsmash.

I just didn't really like what he was saying. A lot of mindgame this and that type of talk. Probably should have ignored it.:\ Anyways, sorry.

For landing side-b, just SH back a bit while doing it. It wont cause much trouble.

I'm thinking more about what you're sating, and I can actually agree... sorta. It's much easier to land a Fsmash on someone who's paralyzed than Side-B or especially Bair. However, if you're any good, you should still be landing these consistently. We all mess up though, and it happens enough that it's a risk that is worth considering. Because of this, I can agree that if you're at the right distance to hit with the sweet spot (center of whip) AND your opponent is at 150%+ or higher for heavier characters (tends to happen with ZSS) AND you are right at the edge, Fsmash might be a better finishing move than the others, only because it doesn't have that risk of being messed up. You really want to make sure these conditions are met, and more, only because DI and such could let the live, which you never want.

 

[Negi Kun1]

Because of this, I can agree that if you're at the right distance to hit with the sweet spot (center of whip) AND your opponent is at 150%+ or higher for heavier characters (tends to happen with ZSS) AND you are right at the edge, Fsmash might be a better finishing move than the others, only because it doesn't have that risk of being messed up. You really want to make sure these conditions are met, and more, only because DI and such could let the live, which you never want.

I agree that if the situation arises that would be an alternative. I'd have to land a Dsmash though as I would have to analyze whether I was in the right position for that situation. Landing a stun shot wouldn't leave me enough time to see if I'm in sweetspot range and land the Fsmash.

I always feel much safer landing a bair, and if they are towards the edge, I'll just make sure I use the bair to send them forward. Or a nice side B also works although its usually stale so I stick with bair.

 

[ThreeSided]

I agree that if the situation arises that would be an alternative. I'd have to land a Dsmash though as I would have to analyze whether I was in the right position for that situation. Landing a stun shot wouldn't leave me enough time to see if I'm in sweetspot range and land the Fsmash.

I always feel much safer landing a bair, and if they are towards the edge, I'll just make sure I use the bair to send them forward. Or a nice side B also works although its usually stale so I stick with bair.

I love the DDsmash Bair. In the rare situations where the opponent hasn't seen it before, it's just freaking awesome, because for some reason it makes it look, like, 3x faster, like a blink of the eye. Perfect time to have a camera ready pointed at their face. :3

 

[Negi Kun1]

I love the DDsmash Bair. In the rare situations where the opponent hasn't seen it before, it's just freaking awesome, because for some reason it makes it look, like, 3x faster, like a blink of the eye. Perfect time to have a camera ready pointed at their face. :3

Hahah, yeah I think everyone loves that

I just love that the bair can send the opponent forward or backwards depending on when you decide to use it. Although my favorite aerial is none other than the beloved uair <3

 

[ph00tbag]

If you Dsmash stun close to the edge and they stay level with you the Fsmash is perfect because the side B usually won't hit around that area properly. If they get stunned upwards or downwards blahblahblah you know the rest. Not to mentioin the freshness of Fsmash.

What's wrong dsmashx2 into with fair and bair in this situation?

 

[sasook]

Dsmash at the right point and hit it correctly. It has different range than the SideB. The SideB has a pushing effect to the sweet spot and sometimes you aren't at the right distance to work that so Fsmash works better in some cases. Her moves after Dsmash are extremely situational and each one has a purpose. If you Dsmash stun close to the edge and they stay level with you the Fsmash is perfect because the side B usually won't hit around that area properly. If they get stunned upwards or downwards blahblahblah you know the rest. Not to mentioin the freshness of Fsmash.

Well, as ThreeSided said, you just SH back a little. Not hard to space at all.

For the bair, yeah you can miss occasionally (maybe 1 out of 5 times or so) because of their DI, but you can always catch them with a uair right afterwards if you miss. For fair, hop above them and FF it so the second hit connects.

Most fsmashes usually are fresh, yeah. But it's such a bad move that it's not even worth using, or when it is, it's highly situational (meet the terms stated before by Threesided I think).

 

[noradseven]

Well, as ThreeSided said, you just SH back a little. Not hard to space at all.

For the bair, yeah you can miss occasionally (maybe 1 out of 5 times or so) because of their DI, but you can always catch them with a uair right afterwards if you miss. For fair, hop above them and FF it so the second hit connects.

Most fsmashes usually are fresh, yeah. But it's such a bad move that it's not even worth using, or when it is, it's highly situational (meet the terms stated before by Threesided I think).

Why would you miss because of DI, Im confused how does everyone else do it.

here it is the chain I follow depending upon alot of factors, this is the general no infinite or loops one of course.
d-smash->jab(c)x2,->boost jump->jump->u-air
_______->down B
_______->d-smash->grab->d-toss
_____________________->f-toss
________________->f-air
________________->b-air(normally reversed, aka hitting backwards)
________________->over B(first hit,into second hit)
________________->fastfall n-air


Of course all those setups have their own advantages weather it be pressure, damage, or killing.

edit: smash boards broke my list

edit2: okay fixed mostly

 

[ohaiduhg]

What's wrong dsmashx2 into with fair and bair in this situation?

It's like 5x easier for me to hit with? lol Also, the paralyses lets you almost, if not, fully charge a fresh sweet spotted Fsmash. It's pretty much limited to a specific finishing move position, but, yeah, it can't be called horrible.

 

[sasook]

It has next to no knockback, even sweet spotted, unless the opponent is at like 170%. D:

It's just easier to KO with bair, fair, or the whip. <------hitting with those moves isn't hard out of stun. If it is, practice.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It kills fresh and fully charged, sweet-spotted at 107%. Neat.

 

[noradseven]

It kills fresh and fully charged, sweet-spotted at 107%. Neat.

I have not seen this to be the case, while it does kill reasonably well, once the opponents in killing range like I have stated else where you can cycle though your, 3 killing moves keeping the current counts of them in the stack aka their degrasion in your head and decide the best one to do, if you cycle though them one will almost always be fresh or only 1 hit away from it.

Don't forget each hit of jab is a separate move on the stack, and p. much the only reason why I use it, outside of a few choice matchups.

In case you are silly that doesn't mean that I will not do a move if an opponent is just asking for it, but I will change my style of movement to make it so that a certain attack will counter the majority of the oppositions options.

 

[ph00tbag]

It's like 5x easier for me to hit with? lol Also, the paralyses lets you almost, if not, fully charge a fresh sweet spotted Fsmash. It's pretty much limited to a specific finishing move position, but, yeah, it can't be called horrible.

Fsmash's sweetspot doesn't charge.

 

[stingers]

ph00t we missed you today D:

yeah, fsmash's sweetspot doesn't charge.

 

[ph00tbag]

ph00t we missed you today D:

yeah, fsmash's sweetspot doesn't charge.

I missed you guys, too. Winston-Salem is just too far for me to drive on my own. I get lonely, and I don't have the nerves of steel that Dublio does.

 

[Negi Kun1]

I missed you guys, too. Winston-Salem is just too far for me to drive on my own. I get lonely, and I don't have the nerves of steel that Dublio does.

I so used to live in the city next to there a few months ago.

 

[stingers]

ph00t you really missed a lot. you should've toughened up and driven anyway. you have a radio, dammit.

 

[ohaiduhg]

Fsmash's sweetspot doesn't charge.

the charge was meant to go to the Fsmash not sweet spot XP

"lets you almost, if not, fully charge a fresh sweet spotted Fsmash"

but whatever idk with grammar sometimes. you all know what I meant.lol

 

[oOJaseOo]

Jase, thank you for using proper punctuation. It really was a joy to read your post.

Erm thankyou ^^ that means alot to me being dyslexic an all

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There are a few realities we're going to have to face and questions we will need to ask ourselves if we are to continue to have this discussion:

1. In fighting games characters will often surge suddenly in popularity. People will learn to fight that character, and then these characters won't be thought of as being as good as they were. These "fad character" occurrences are frequent enough that the SBR-B is likely looking at ZSS and considering her to be one of these. Is ZSS one of these characters? Why, or why not?

2. Slipping tourney results: Dazwa and Snakeee, our primary representation in the most competitive region in North America have not been doing as well (their words, not mine). The game is getting faster, marginalizing one of ZSS' large strengths (but not eliminating it). Can ZSS keep up, especially while Falco and Diddy are so popular?

3. Semi-stale metagame: ZSS is no game and watch, and we have done a few new things recently. Foostool combos, further applications of nair,and major applications in buffering (chain grabs, double bairs) are all great things. In addition, metagames are just more than technique discoveries. ZSS is probably more aggressive at the high end than she was when we thought her only two good moves were d-smash and side-b. Opponents challenged this and we've evolved from it. Is it enough, though? What is required for a character to improve, and do we have that?

 

[sasook]

As for the third question, I believe evolving metagames can apply to finding new uses for not-so-popular moves, such as nair. So I think we've taken a step in the right direction.

Remember, one step at a time. We can't plan out everything thats going to happen, so we'll take it as it comes.

 

[ThreeSided]

There are a few realities we're going to have to face and questions we will need to ask ourselves if we are to continue to have this discussion:

1. In fighting games characters will often surge suddenly in popularity. People will learn to fight that character, and then these characters won't be thought of as being as good as they were. These "fad character" occurrences are frequent enough that the SBR-B is likely looking at ZSS and considering her to be one of these. Is ZSS one of these characters? Why, or why not?

I would believe not.

Zero Suit Samus is too difficult as a character to become a "fad". Unless she rose to the top of the tier list for whatever reason, and even unlikely then, people would likely not be able to put the time and effort into using her, just because she is a "popular" character to use. If that makes any sense.

2. Slipping tourney results: Dazwa and Snakeee, our primary representation in the most competitive region in North America have not been doing as well (their words, not mine). The game is getting faster, marginalizing one of ZSS' large strengths (but not eliminating it). Can ZSS keep up, especially while Falco and Diddy are so popular?

It has become more difficult. And looking at how she is, I would say that it will continue to get worse, but not too much so. But don't take my word for it; I don't know too much on the matter.

3. Semi-stale metagame: ZSS is no game and watch, and we have done a few new things recently. Foostool combos, further applications of nair,and major applications in buffering (chain grabs, double bairs) are all great things. In addition, metagames are just more than technique discoveries. ZSS is probably more aggressive at the high end than she was when we thought her only two good moves were d-smash and side-b. Opponents challenged this and we've evolved from it. Is it enough, though? What is required for a character to improve, and do we have that?

I honestly feel like ZSS has a lot of unexplored options. She has some great Aerial DI, fast aerials, huge jumps, an odd Nair, and really weird up/downB moves. With regard to that last one, I think we need to look into those more than we already have. They are both really odd moves, essentially unlike anything we've seen in any of the other games or this one, mostly due to the weird properties involved. Because of that, it's very likely that the moves will do some funky stuff we'll discover in the near future. We just have to all go to practice mode, and start using them in weird, out there situations. It's when I started to do that that I "discovered" (not really. Well, at least for myself) Tether Bouncing. We're bound to eventually come across something.

 

[ohaiduhg]

[

There are a few realities we're going to have to face and questions we will need to ask ourselves if we are to continue to have this discussion:

1. In fighting games characters will often surge suddenly in popularity. People will learn to fight that character, and then these characters won't be thought of as being as good as they were. These "fad character" occurrences are frequent enough that the SBR-B is likely looking at ZSS and considering her to be one of these. Is ZSS one of these characters? Why, or why not?

Meta and Snake laugh at this.^ Giving a serious answer, the whole "learning curve" of ZSS is rather unorthodox, imo. She relies on a half camp to tilt to aerial wire kick and dsmash stun to stage spike/offstage gimp tactic. That's how it seems to me, at least. Seems like a natural taste as opposed to what is essentially button mashing with Meta Knight (I play Meta) and using overly powered tilts/ and grenades with Snake. Zero Suit Samus has small bits and pieces, but no Falco/Dedede Chain Grab to death and her Power Suit Pieces fade away and can't be respawned too well at all. Maybe I'm wrong though and there will be a ZSS-fad. I don't see that happening too soon or for very long.


2. Slipping tourney results: Dazwa and Snakeee, our primary representation in the most competitive region in North America have not been doing as well (their words, not mine). The game is getting faster, marginalizing one of ZSS' large strengths (but not eliminating it). Can ZSS keep up, especially while Falco and Diddy are so popular?

It could be they are going through a bad phase. Using a ZSS to her full potential is frightening. It wouldn't be that ZSS got worse, like what I infer from your question, but the players representing her are getting worse. I'll place my bet this is just a phase.

3. Semi-stale metagame: ZSS is no game and watch, and we have done a few new things recently. Foostool combos, further applications of nair,and major applications in buffering (chain grabs, double bairs) are all great things. In addition, metagames are just more than technique discoveries. ZSS is probably more aggressive at the high end than she was when we thought her only two good moves were d-smash and side-b. Opponents challenged this and we've evolved from it. Is it enough, though? What is required for a character to improve, and do we have that?

Yeah, how about that one step at a time thing? Instead of piling little tid-bit techs on her, let's try and master her Dsmash. I've seen a loooooot of failed follow ups to the Dsmash.

I honestly feel like ZSS has a lot of unexplored options. She has some great Aerial DI, fast aerials, huge jumps, an odd Nair, and really weird up/downB moves. With regard to that last one, I think we need to look into those more than we already have. They are both really odd moves, essentially unlike anything we've seen in any of the other games or this one, mostly due to the weird properties involved. Because of that, it's very likely that the moves will do some funky stuff we'll discover in the near future. We just have to all go to practice mode, and start using them in weird, out there situations. It's when I started to do that that I "discovered" (not really. Well, at least for myself) Tether Bouncing. We're bound to eventually come across something.

Instead of practice mode, I go with 2 or 3 computers at the same time. I think it improves the chances of something weird happening.