New Edgeguarding vs Falco

[-ACE-]

After you knock Falco offstage and he tries to sweetspot a phantasm and you reverse uair him (frame 16 of the uair aka the tipman spike), he is usually in perfect position for a drop zone dair. I want to see this more often in the Ganon vs Falco metagame. This guarantees that he will not be making it back. Discuss.

EDIT: Here are 2 examples:

Here at 1:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cDR4BWEqIU#t=0m58s

Here at 3:17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_uSaQ28TU8#t=3m16s

In the 2nd example it's questionable as to whether the dair would have hit right away, but I think even if shiz was able to get the up-b off it would have at least traded hits with the drop zone dair which is fine in this situation (falco dies Ganon doesn't).

 

[spider_sense]

What happens if the Falco happens to up-b cancel back onto the stage?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

jason i see you lookin mad cute in that crew battle.

 

[RestInPeace]

Up B cancel as in cancel the Dair? I think Ace means its not possible. If you get tipped with the Uair, and then Dair'd, you can't make it back. Unless its possible and I've never seen it before.

Edit: Also, I'd prefer to Fair a Falco. That guarantees the kill.

 

[-ACE-]

What happens if the Falco happens to up-b cancel back onto the stage?

Due to the stun from the uair he won't be able to up-b close to the stage (to the point where he will barely be able to make it back as it is) so even if he meteor cancels the dair right away he's f*cked.

 

[-ACE-]

Edit: Also, I'd prefer to Fair a Falco. That guarantees the kill.

After you reverse uair him out of a sweetspot he's usually too low for a drop zone fair.

 

[RestInPeace]

Oh, okay. That makes sense.

Can you DThrow and jab at the edge -> drop zone aerial?

 

[-ACE-]

Oh, okay. That makes sense.

Can you DThrow and jab at the edge -> drop zone aerial?

Usually, no. That depends on their DI and whether they save their jump, etc.

What I'm talking about is pretty specific.

 

[TresChikon]

Edit: Also, I'd prefer to Fair a Falco. That guarantees the kill.

You can still tech a fair, U-air is like a Ganon shine, can't really do anything about it.

 

[RestInPeace]

TresChikon: I meant Fair instead of Dair.

 

[TresChikon]

Sorry, misread it, but u-air always did intrigue me since it kind of just jabs you.

 

[spider_sense]

I feel you Ace, I just didn't understand the drop off dair, because once you catch Falco or Fox with the reverse up-air, they have no choice but to up-b, but if you run off and dair and they happen the meteor cancel it, then that could lead into you getting edge guarded. haha I ain't trying to play the Devil's advocate, but I like to play safe than risk it you know? lol Despite how flashy I usually get.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm not saying do this against Fox. If Falco meteor cancels it doesn't matter since he'd be too low to reach the edge, as he can barely made it back as it is in this scenario. Worst possible scenario is that he meteor cancels right away and you catch him with your up-b on the way back (he techs and lives), but if you double jump away from the stage and then up-b this shouldn't happen.

 

[Renth]

I just down angle f tilt works perfectly fine.

 

[-ACE-]

I just down angle f tilt works perfectly fine.

after you reverse uair? or do you use that instead of reverse uair?

down angle ftilt is a great move but it won't get sweetspotters and they can also tech it.

 

[Renth]

after you reverse uair? or do you use that instead of reverse uair?

down angle ftilt is a great move but it won't get sweetspotters and they can also tech it.

I hit falco/fox out of the phantasm with down angled f tilt and it works fine for me everytime. I never reverse u air that recovery, then again i barely reverse u air anyway.

 

[-ACE-]

Like I said it's a great move and should definitely be used, but if you're hitting them every time they're not sweetspotting :>

<3

 

[Renth]

Like I said it's a great move and should definitely be used, but if you're hitting them every time they're not sweetspotting :>

<3

you hit them before they make it to the ledge silly, it works fine.

 

[-ACE-]

you hit them before they make it to the ledge silly.

Yeah, ideally that's what you try to do so that they can't tech (if you have time). But what I'm saying is the hitbox of the down angled ftilt doesn't go low enough to get a Falco (or a Fox) that is recovering with a phantasm as low as possible yet still able to grab the ledge.

lolganondebates. I need to go to Florida.

 

[Renth]

Yeah, ideally that's what you try to do so that they can't tech (if you have time). But what I'm saying is the hitbox of the down angled ftilt doesn't go low enough to get a Falco (or a Fox) that is recovering with a phantasm as low as possible yet still able to grab the ledge.

lolganondebates. I need to go to Florida.

i'm about 99.9% sure it does because I do it all the time lol.

 

[Dorsey]

Yeah I've always been under the impression, mainly from ace, that you can't hit sweetspotters with the down-angled ftilt. Kind of like the last motion of ganon's fair hitbox when positioned right on the edge... comes extremely close but no cigar if someone sweetspots it. Maybe that analogy isn't good, but I've always thought that.

 

[Linguini]

Angled down ftilt doesn't hit a perfect sweetspot, a perfect(tipman) uair does tho. Depends how good the spacie is and if they catch on to the angled down ftilt.
Uair is reallyyyyyyy good.

Ace I usually do what you said in the 1st post but I dropzone fair dair or dair after a jab instead of a uair.Usually If you hit them properly with the uair they shouldnt be able to get back, so an edgehog is good enough, sometimes not even necessary.

But those two times in those vids its some ****ed up **** lol they werent supposed to be able to make it back,so in that case yeah dropzone dair would be perfect.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wouldn't dropping off with another Uair be safer and also guarantee the KO?

 

[-ACE-]

How is the dair unsafe? You'd be hitting Falco before his up-b goes into motion.

I think the drop zone uair might have a chance of hitting Falco against the stage and giving him a chance to tech (sometimes). Not completely sure though.

 

[DippnDots]

if you do a run off uair it seems like you wouldn't have to fastfall if you want to hit the falco with your tippy toes, it also seems harder to aim though. Gonna have to try these things out

 

[RestInPeace]

If you Uair them with the front of your Uair (beginning of the hitbox), they can't tech it, since they get hit away.

 

[-ACE-]

If you Uair them with the front of your Uair (beginning of the hitbox), they can't tech it, since they get hit away.

True, but that couldn't possibly happen in this situation. He'll be trying to up-b towards the ledge, and you'd hit him with the latter half of the uair, kind of like a reverse tipman. This is where I think there is a chance Falco could get hit into the stage, tech, and survive.

 

[RestInPeace]

I'm pretty sure you can hit them with the front of your Uair as you're falling down.

 

[Ace55]

I'm pretty sure you can hit them with the front of your Uair as you're falling down.

Look at the first example vid ACE posted. In that position it's gonna be a ***** (and dangerous) to do a forward upair because he's so low and close to the stage. Still not sure he couldn't make it back with an amazing (!) meteor cancel though, if you dair him.

I've always dair'd in that situation though. Don't recall them ever coming back.

 

[RestInPeace]

In the first video, he wouldn't reach him with the Uair in time anyway. In these situations, you can just grab the ledge instead of hitting them again.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

but...didn't they just get back to the stage in the first vid? therefore showing that in that zone something more needed to happen to take that stock, right?

 

[Dorsey]

Drop zone dair catches people off-guard in most situations like these, but switching it up with a turn around full-jump wizard's foot spike is good too, GL teching that ****. And if the dropzone uair is there then do that occasionally too. Even turn around waveland off and hit him with the 2nd hit of the nair if you really want to(fun in friendlies lmao). The drop zone dair has the most guarantee over-all I'd say when factoring in risk/reward, but when over-used your opponent's more likely to MC/tech. But throwing off their timing with diff. **** is the one way to really make them less likely to come back.

I've been wanting to see more use of the less-techable purple-boot from hell spike in ganon's metagame.

 

[RestInPeace]

Dthrow to Down B (throws you and opponent offstage) to Down B is good.

 

[TresChikon]

So if you u-air the phantasm, is there anyway Falco can survive other than you making a mistake?

 

[-ACE-]

So if you u-air the phantasm, is there anyway Falco can survive other than you making a mistake?

This is basically what this thread is about.. If you time the uair right it will hit him no matter what, even if he sweetspots the edge. This alone will often be enough to kill him, but like the 2 examples in the op show, it won't always do the trick. Following up with an immediate dropzone dair is not only effective, it's like the ultimate **** YOU.

 

[RestInPeace]

Dair is the best followup.

How about Fox? I imagine since he'll be under the stage the same way as Falco, you can also stomp on him. The question is will he survive?

 

[-ACE-]

You'd be asking for trouble to try this on Fox since he'd actually be able to meteor cancel the dair and survive. Fox will most likely be trying to up-b as soon as possible after you reverse uair spike him, so he will overshoot the ledge unless he uses the correct angle of the firefox to make it sweetspot (or close). If it looks like he's going to sweetspot reverse uair him again, otherwise I'd use bair.

 

[spider_sense]

You're all a bunch of noobs!

 

[RestInPeace]

Elaborate!

 

[DippnDots]

You're all a bunch of pubes!