New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Chzrm3]

That difficulty tier list is very interesting. Out of curiosity, where do you guys think Mewtwo and Roy would fit on that list? I could easily see Mewtwo being in the super difficult, red-tier. Do you think Roy would be yellow, orange, or green? His side-B changes as well as the new moves they had to animate for him + the fact that his flyswatter playstyle was retained and balanced makes me feel like he might be orange, but maybe that's too far for someone who's based off Marth and retains a lot of the same animations.

 

[Solbliminal]

The audience for Project M IS competitive Smashers, making the survey audience in the topic actually perfect. I don't see the backroom should appeal to demographics that aren't the target audience for this mod anyways. Your argument about random surveys doesn't work, it's just inherently flawed.

The point of adding characters is to appeal to new players, and thus increase the popularity of Project M as a whole. If we are only sampling existing players, then the chances are that we miss out on additional supporters for Project M. The less support, the less chances the mod can continue to expand. So by giving say...a Golden Sun fan the chance to vote Issac, you then you have appealed to someone who my not have initially cared about Project M or Smash Bros. even. Regardless of being a mod, they still advertise it. There are two initiatives for advertising an existing franchise:

1) To appeal to fans who are continued supporters of said franchise. (Which is in this case, is us for this mod.)

2) By advertising, you expose your product to new people. This is used as a metaphorical hook to snag what may have been one of the following: A) A Non-Supporter, B) A player of the franchise who overlooked the mod for whatever reason, C) A player looking into competitive gaming, and D) A mix of all or none of the above.

So I do believe Sanity's_Thief has perfectly reasonable logic for his argument. And a quick note, I did have some game development and advertisement 411 from teachers at my trade school as well as the college I attended. (Which I was forced to drop out after the first year or so when the prices of both the dorm and my courses doubled beyond what was affordable to me at the time. I have every intention on returning to college.) So I may not completely know statistics as a course, but I'm not dumbfounded as to what it takes to appeal to fans. The courses and advice I received can very easily translate to what is needed to raise those statistics.

 

[andalsoandy]

A few more suggestions. They're all a bit of a stretch but I haven't heard them yet.

Yeah have fun getting angry at me. They're all just simple ideas I thought of when browsing the sticker gallery.

1. Is Balloon Fighter out of the question because of the Villager's Up-B in SSB4? I haven't seen him mentioned yet.
2. Playable Electroplankton... haha...
3. Playable Mite (SSE) because screw Primids.
4. Playable Excitebike (wheelie jumps)
5. K.K. freakin' Slider
6. Playable Nintendog (PMBR DO IT)
7. Bubbles (Clu Clu Land)
8. Tamagon (Devil World) or even the Devil himself.
9. Louie (Pikmin 2)
10. Toadsworth
10. Torchic/Cyndaquil - I actually have a really interesting idea for Torchic/Cyndaquil. Give him Pichu's moveset but with fire effects, and replace his Up-B with Fox's Up-B. Just an idea though. EDIT: Yeah he shouldn't have the recoil crap Pichu has though.
11. Starman (Earthbound)
12. Jill (Drill Dozer)
13. CHIBI-ROBO
14. Starfy, anyone?

 

[andalsoandy]

double post. I thought I was editing my first post for a sec. Getting used to Smashboards.

 

[JCOnyx]

Oh a difficulty tier list...? I can comment on that at least. Assuming balance has anything to do with difficulty is laughable - even if a character is a straight clone with physics/hitbox edits, they would still require extensive balancing work. Ranking someone higher or lower because they would be "harder to balance" is meaningless. On the other hand, I see difficulty to animate being downplayed significantly. I get the feeling you guys don't even know how many animations a character requires (there's a reason we quote 700 hours for Mewtwo), and if there is no animation base to work from, that's a huge black mark against a character - doesn't matter how "simple" the moveset might be. Finally, unique move properties aren't really much of a hinderance, but article availability is.

Aside from those observations, that difficulty list is more sensible than most things I see batted around here.

Thanks! I was hoping to get some feedback from you guys on this to be honest. I now know that taking balancing into equation was bad judgment on my part. I know that every character needs to be balanced, I just thought that characters that would have completely new movesets, high skill level, or have a lot of projectiles would take a lot longer to work with. I'm going to try reworking this list based on this fact, adding another tier so it's not as inherently in the orange/red (but this doesn't mean that anything is going to be easier to create, just the red would be the hardest of the bunch), and taking all of these comments I've missed since falling asleep into consideration.

I'll be back to post the changes in possibly an hour.

In regards to how I would've have rated Roy and Mewtwo on this list, Mewtwo would have been Red even with them having a base to work off of. Animating a tail isn't a simple task, and making all of these custom animations look up to par with the rest of the cast isn't an easy task (also that SideB and DownB). Roy would've probably been green, I didn't think they were going to change up his SideB and some of his other attacks so much (Ftilt still needs a little touching up by the way, looks a little stiff). Taking that into consideration, most characters that were in the Green and Yellow might be subject to going up a tier and some in the Orange might find themselves going up to Red. It's not going to be pretty for some of you.

 

[Starcutter]

anyways, the only real problem I find with is the way I envision him he'll need like 3 or 4 props from outside brawl, and that probably will be hard. well, maybe. (I say maybe because they have toon link drink a milk bottle and I don't think that was in brawl.)

so, yeah, I think he's in the middle of the orange section on that list.

 

[SCE]

Alright, here's my votes:

1. Isaac - GS needs the rep, the model's there, and mixed magic/physical's an interesting flavor
2. Lyn - would work as a iaijustu build, yes there's the sword but the style is distinct (ZSS clone??), lots of dodge/punish potential
3. Dark Samus - Metroid needs the rep, and I'd love to see Samus Luigified
4. Black Shadow / Gannondorf - F-Zero needs the rep, and Ganondorf has never felt like anything to do with his series
5. Sami - I have no idea where this would go, but I feel the hype

Half-votes:
Ridley - I don't know that he can be done well. Prove me wrong, and I'll be happy
K-Rool - same as above
Paper Mario - simple model, and an excellent sub-series in its own right

Anti-votes
Pichu - unnecessary given Pokemon's representation, and doesn't fill an interesting niche
Shadow - I don't see him being a worthwhile use of the slot, seeing as he's supposed to be almost identical to Sonic

 

[Beckstat]

Great moveset right there but i think he should use a blue, red and white striped shirt, and his model should be like his official clay model (just like that picture)
He also should be able to use a slingshot, bottle rockets.

I did not give him the blue, red and white striped shirt because I wanted it similar to Lucas' shirt, like how Claus' shirt is similar to Ness'.

 

[Beckstat]

PK Brainshock is one I didn't think of. That's a good alternative to PK Hypnosis. 4th-D Slip is the one I had for his recovery, but the 100% escape rate shouldn't translate to Smash. Power Shield is way too overpowered the way you described it. We had some discussion over good ideas for it and agreed that it could be like G&W's Bucket with a PK Beam firing from it when full. PK Techno isn't even a thing, which is why I instead had the strongest version of PK Beam as his best bet for a FS and Quick Up as Ninten's answer to Lucas' Offense Up.

Actually, though, if one of his normal specials is PK Hypnosis, then another FS possibility could be a suped-up PK Brainshock that could work like a larger scale version of ZSS' Final Smash.

Not sure if you saw them, so here were my main posts about him.
http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...ts-updated-11-13.341479/page-57#post-16015925
http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...ts-updated-11-13.341479/page-63#post-16019693

Smash Bros. is not canon to the Earthbound Universe so PK Techno could still work.

 

[Starcutter]

OVER representation is not a thing, but I do suppose UNDER representation is.

I'm weird like that.

 

[Beckstat]

I don't think it would be possible for him to say PK Techno

What do you mean?

 

[shinhed-echi]

Another thing to consider is the character modelling which, to my understanding, is made from scratch. So *insert LOTR meme here* One does not simply walk into Brawl Vault and get a particular character's texture, port it, and case closed. Roy and Mewtwo's renders were built from the ground up, as far as I know. Unless of course I'm mistaken.

 

[GunBlaze]

Roy and Mewtwo's renders were built from the ground up, as far as I know.

Correct

 

[Beckstat]

I don't think it would be possible for him to say PK Techno

What do you mean?

 

[andalsoandy]

Another thing to consider is the character modelling which, to my understanding, is made from scratch. So *insert LOTR meme here* One does not simply walk into Brawl Vault and get a particular character's texture, port it, and case closed. Roy and Mewtwo's renders were built from the ground up, as far as I know. Unless of course I'm mistaken.

I think if a character seemingly fits well enough in Smash, the PMBR would be dead set on creating the character regardless of what they may need to go through.

I understand it's hard work but I don't think they'll discard a character because it's simply too hard to make (unless it's borderline impossible like a full fledged projectile using K. Rool)

 

[Beckstat]

PK Brainshock is one I didn't think of. That's a good alternative to PK Hypnosis. 4th-D Slip is the one I had for his recovery, but the 100% escape rate shouldn't translate to Smash. Power Shield is way too overpowered the way you described it. We had some discussion over good ideas for it and agreed that it could be like G&W's Bucket with a PK Beam firing from it when full. PK Techno isn't even a thing, which is why I instead had the strongest version of PK Beam as his best bet for a FS and Quick Up as Ninten's answer to Lucas' Offense Up.

Actually, though, if one of his normal specials is PK Hypnosis, then another FS possibility could be a suped-up PK Brainshock that could work like a larger scale version of ZSS' Final Smash.

Not sure if you saw them, so here were my main posts about him.
http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...ts-updated-11-13.341479/page-57#post-16015925
http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...ts-updated-11-13.341479/page-63#post-16019693

Smash Bros is not canon to the Earthbound Universe so PK Techno could still work and I perfer PK Beam as his neutral special.

 

[TopTierPichu]

but PK techno does not exist, thats like saying, lets turn Link's sword into a gun

 

[MLGF]

The point of adding characters is to appeal to new players, and thus increase the popularity of Project M as a whole. If we are only sampling existing players, then the chances are that we miss out on additional supporters for Project M. The less support, the less chances the mod can continue to expand. So by giving say...a Golden Sun fan the chance to vote Issac, you then you have appealed to someone who my not have initially cared about Project M or Smash Bros. even. Regardless of being a mod, they still advertise it. There are two initiatives for advertising an existing franchise:

1) To appeal to fans who are continued supporters of said franchise. (Which is in this case, is us for this mod.)

2) By advertising, you expose your product to new people. This is used as a metaphorical hook to snag what may have been one of the following: A) A Non-Supporter, B) A player of the franchise who overlooked the mod for whatever reason, C) A player looking into competitive gaming, and D) A mix of all or none of the above.

So I do believe Sanity's_Thief has perfectly reasonable logic for his argument. And a quick note, I did have some game development and advertisement 411 from teachers at my trade school as well as the college I attended. (Which I was forced to drop out after the first year or so when the prices of both the dorm and my courses doubled beyond what was affordable to me at the time. I have every intention on returning to college.) So I may not completely know statistics as a course, but I'm not dumbfounded as to what it takes to appeal to fans. The courses and advice I received can very easily translate to what is needed to raise those statistics.

Congrats, you took a business class and learned some basics. So have I .
You do have a point on appealing to new audiences, but the interest from those groups will mostly be temporary with only a few new long time supporters. While appealing to them may make sense in a business where there is potential profit, we must remember that this is a free mod and appealing to short time investors will not lead to any further benefits.
Also take note that many Smash fans are also interested in other franchises related to the crossover. It may seem stupid to ask competitive Smash players exclusively, but asking a forum of fans that are only interested in one demographic (EG, going on a Fire Emblem board will lead to far less varied answers then here). You are certainly seeing a large amount of people voting for Isaac and Ridley, but you're also seeing some very interesting ideas that likely wouldn't come from just pure Smash fans (and even then, Isaac and Ridley certainly hold some heartstrings).
Random surveying has a time and place when developing a new product, Project M has already established itself in a fashion where it has already established an audience and is appealing to FIGHTING game fans.
This is not even to mention the potential disinterest from asking random groups. Finding completely random boards with no bias is difficult, especially in gaming. Means of asking are mostly connected to furms and most forums are exclusive to a particular franchise, thus the answers would still remain bias. Picking and choosing some random people via PM's from multple boards may also come off as difficult. There is potential of the data being far too spread out between every board and not enough focus to make any actions based off the newfound knowledge.
Now, I'm not saying appealing to different audiences is bad, hell, competitive smashers are the periphery demographic for sure. The appeal should come from lightly going over missed characters in Nintendo's history rather then trying to shove what may be hip or cool.

There are ways around this even on this board too. People, when making votes, could also state which franchises they are extremely interested in and thus people are able to judge that particular demographic based off of that extra info. (EG, I'm a huge Fire Emblem fan and anti voted Lyn)

 

[Shin F.]

but PK techno does not exist, thats like saying, lets turn Link's sword into a gun

Exactly. There's no need to make up attacks when there are perfectly valid techniques he can already use or borrow from someone else. This is why some people dislike Ganondorf so much. It's best to stick with what the character and their allies actually have whenever possible rather than make things up.

 

[Beckstat]

Great moveset right there but i think he should use a blue, red and white striped shirt, and his model should be like his official clay model (just like that picture)
He also should be able to use a slingshot, bottle rockets.

I did not give him the blue, red, and white striped shirt because I think it should be similar to Lucas', like how Claus' shirt looks similar to Ness.

 

[Solbliminal]

but PK techno does not exist, thats like saying, lets turn Link's sword into a gun

Aura Storm & Tripple Finish. Your argument is invalid.

 

[Shin F.]

I did not give him the blue, red, and white striped shirt because I think it should be similar to Lucas', like how Claus' shirt looks similar to Ness.

You already said that :/
If I had to pick a look for Ninten, it would be like my avatar but with a red bandana. It's the most distinct and helps to separate him from Ness more than just about any other I've seen.

Aura Storm & Tripple Finish. Your argument is invalid.

Aura Storm is derived from Lucario's aura powers, like Aura Sphere on crack, and Triple Finish is a combination of canon attacks (Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and Hydro Pump.)

Your argument is invalid.

 

[Shin F.]

Sorry, double post. Just ignore.

 

[Beckstat]

but PK techno does not exist, thats like saying, lets turn Link's sword into a gun

The fact that it doesn't exist does not mean it can't be implimented, it was actually a popular fanmade move given to him.

 

[andalsoandy]

I don't know where this idea came from but I had this idea for an FS for Ninten.

What if he fires a wave off of his body that has a hitbox that spikes everyone in range, then he fires another that confuses them (deku nut effect) and then one more that OHKOs? (Like Tabuu's Off waves, only less OP)

It could be like... PK Techno... or something. C'mon! Ninten has to have some awesome amazing offensive move in the games, right? I'm just gonna keep calling it PK Techno until someone mentions something actually canonical.

Maybe he could sing Eight Melodies. Heck, I give up.

 

[Beckstat]

You already said that :/
If I had to pick a look for Ninten, it would be like my avatar but with a red bandana. It's the most distinct and helps to separate him from Ness more than just about any other I've seen.

Accidentally double posted.

 

[Shin F.]

I don't know where this idea came from but I had this idea for an FS for Ninten.

What if he fires a wave off of his body that has a hitbox that spikes everyone in range, then he fires another that confuses them (deku nut effect) and then one more that OHKOs? (Like Tabuu's Off waves, only less OP)

It could be like... PK Techno... or something. C'mon! Ninten has to have some awesome amazing offensive move in the games, right? I'm just gonna keep calling it PK Techno until someone mentions something actually canonical.

Maybe he could sing Eight Melodies. Heck, I give up.

FS - Eight Melodies: All of his opponents run away, throwing themselves off the stage.

In all seriousness, you could call that attack you thought of PK Brainshock and it would be fairly fitting.

 

[Solbliminal]

Sorry, double post. Just ignore.

The point is that the move is non-canonical and thus non existing outside its initial game. Creativity is never a bad thing. I mean last I checked, Lucario doesn't do Shoryukens and Tatsumaki's.

 

[Shin F.]

The point is that the move is non-canonical and thus non existing outside its initial game. Creativity is never a bad thing. I mean last I checked, Lucario doesn't do Shoryukens and Tatsumaki's.

I didn't mean to just shut down the idea or anything, it's not that it's bad. I've read EarthBound fanfics where he has PK Techno. I've also read ones where he has other made up attacks, like PK Starbeam or borrowing PK Rockin from Ness. Creativity is good. I'd just prefer that we stick to what's already available before we start making things up. As it is, Ninten's got enough abilities between he and his party members that we don't need ones from fanon.

 

[Saito]

The point is that the move is non-canonical and thus non existing outside its initial game. Creativity is never a bad thing. I mean last I checked, Lucario doesn't do Shoryukens and Tatsumaki's.

As far as that is concerned, that's just an uppercut and a spinning mid air kick. Not really exclusive to just the street fighter characters.

PK Techno is literally a fanmade attack based off of what the maker thinks X character can do with his PK powers. Not to say that it's a bad idea, but I don't think the PMBR would use it.

 

[andalsoandy]

FS - Eight Melodies: All of his opponents run away, throwing themselves off the stage.

In all seriousness, you could call that attack you thought of PK Brainshock and it would be fairly fitting.

Well then PK Brainshock it is...

Like I said a while ago, I lack experience with the first game. I beat Earthbound and I'm at the end of Chapter 7 of Mother 3, and the entire time I never used PK Brainshock (not counting the Porky battle in EB).

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Just refreshed my memory on Mother 1 PSI, what about Brain Cyclone? (the higher level Brainshock) It could stun everyone in a large radius, or just deal damage in a radius. If anything that just sounds interesting.

 

[Beckstat]

The point is that the move is non-canonical and thus non existing outside its initial game. Creativity is never a bad thing. I mean last I checked, Lucario doesn't do Shoryukens and Tatsumaki's.

That does not mean it can't be implemented, I did not even make it up it was a very popular fanmade move made a few years back.

 

[Shin F.]

Just refreshed my memory on Mother 1 PSI, what about Brain Cyclone? (the higher level Brainshock) It could stun everyone in a large radius, or just deal damage in a radius. If anything that just sounds interesting.

Brain Cyclone is another version PK Brainshock, right? Is it the stronger or weaker one? I can't remember. Either of those names would work, but I suppose we should call it the stronger one if it's going to be his FS.

 

[andalsoandy]

Brain Cyclone is another version PK Brainshock, right? Is it the stronger or weaker one? I can't remember. Either of those names would work, but I suppose we should call it the stronger one if it's going to be his FS.

Brain Cyclone is the stronger one.
http://www.wikibound.info/wiki/Brainshock

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Brain Cyclone is another version PK Brainshock, right? Is it the stronger or weaker one? I can't remember. Either of those names would work, but I suppose we should call it the stronger one if it's going to be his FS.

It's apparently the stronger one. I just thought it sounded more FS-like, because it brings to mind an area of effect/visually impressive attack (although I think in-game it still only targets one opponent). At the very least, it sounds more believable as a FS than normal-old Brainshock.

But it appears I've been beaten to the punch.

 

[Beckstat]

You already said that :/
If I had to pick a look for Ninten, it would be like my avatar but with a red bandana. It's the most distinct and helps to separate him from Ness more than just about any other I've seen.

The cap doesn't, he looks like Ness with a different shirt that doesn't feel different enough.

 

[Solbliminal]

-snip-

I like your view on this topic, but be aware that I do already know the group targeted is established. That doesn't mean they still can't reach out. Don't get me wrong. I do understand your point in all this. I'm just sharing my view on Sanity's argument. And I took 2 to 4 years of business courses in trade school. I wouldn't call that basic. That is before even taking into account my year or so of college courses in Graphic Design and some Game Art and Design courses. (which also requires some form of business knowledge).

So yes I can completely understand your point and agree.

 

[JCOnyx]

List of possible Clone Engine candidates based on ease of creation:

- Dark Samus
- Ninten
- Shadow (If he remains extremely similar to Sonic, meaning no projectiles like guns or chaos magic)
- Knuckles
- Pichu (Based on Roy's implementation, I'm positive her workload would be a little more then people are estimating)
- Telda
- Micaiah (Because of her using Tomes, I've decided that her animations would most likely have to deviate some from Zelda's)
- Claus/Masked Man
- Liquid Snake (Can much more closely resemble Snake, animation wise compared to Sami/Andy. Would still require a pretty elaborate model to be made though)
- Bowser Jr. (hasn't moved because of peoples want to give him the paint stick, which would require more than just giving him Bowser's moveset, but could be a tier lower if they decided to do just that)
- Hector
- Sami/Andy (Their animations would probably have to be tweaked more so than Liquid due to their different body sizes and proportions)
- Tetra (It depends on how they'd want to make this character. She could be one rank higher if she had an extremely similar moveset like Tink or Shiek, but I don't see that happening)
- Lip (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Could possibly play more like Lucas or Ness to lessen the workload)
- Lyn (She could be more of a challenge if they decide to incorporate her iaido style swordplay. Even if they make the model from scratch, they have a decent base to follow)
- Samurai Goroh (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Even if they make the model from scratch, they have a decent base to follow)
- Waluigi (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Even if they make the model from scratch, they have a decent base to follow)
- Tails (Flight animations and balancing a speedy character who can possibly float cancel, definitely a challenge)
- Black Shadow/Ganondorf (Even though they'd just have to create a model for Black Shadow, creating Dorfs sword moveset would be a challenge. This also implies that they are working on two characters at once, which is a pain)
- Krystal (First ever staff user, would be a challenge since they have no animations to base hers off of)
- Toad (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Just porting him over Mario would look extremely awkward, as his arms are tiny and all of the punching moves would be off because of this. Would require a lot of new animations then people are estimating)
- Tom Nook (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Animations would have to be made from scratch, but aren't as difficult as some of the higher tiers)
- Kamek (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Animations would have to be made from scratch, but aren't as difficult as some of the higher tiers)
- Saki (Possibly much more of a challenge, but could potentially resemble Pit more so than I originally thought)
- Dixie (The hair would be quite a challenge, especially involving grabs and pummels. Animating it wouldn't be easy either)
- Skull Kid (Would require a creative moveset, and his animations could potentially be extremely difficult. They could just make them look bat**** crazy though and it would work for the character)
- Ridley (Animating winged character's is never easy, and creating a suitable model with fluid animations would be a challenge. The workload could be a little less if they try to make him resemble Charizard as closely as possible, but the same could be said about the opposite)
- Mach Rider (Possible projectiles, bike riding, and whip/tethers would be a challenge)
- Sukapon (Even if the model would be simple, creating such a unique moveset would be a challenge. Also, unorthodox hit-boxes and has no real base to work from. All animations would be made from scratch, even if they base some of his moves off of other characters)
- Pokemon Trainer/Red (Would require a very creative moveset, and even though balancing isn't being brought up as much, a character who can possibly throw out random pokemon via pokeballs would be a nightmare. Because of people's varying concepts, wanting pokemon to appear for certain attacks, among other things, animating all of this could be extremely challenging)
- Paper Mario (Since people seem to want his moveset have his party members come in to help him, I've decided to place him here because of all the extra modeling work that would require or if that's even possible to begin with, he's basically in the same boat as Pokemon Trainer/Red)
- Boo (A character that is always floating... I expect this would be extremely challenging)
- King K. Rool (With his only possible base being DDD, and even that is far stretched, he would be extremely challenging)
- Issac (Moveset would require a lot of creativity, his psyenergy would be a challenge)
- Pulse & Minun (See Ice Climbers)

*new change list 11/27*
- New tiers added
- Micaiah bumped up 1 tier due to the possibilities of her tomes creating more challenges in animating her attacks.
- Sami/Andy, Tetra, Lip, Lyn, Goroh, and Waluigi have moved to the new Light Orange tier because of their deceptive difficulty, could potentially be Yellow or Orange.
- Skull Kid, Dixie, and Ridley has been moved to the new Dark Orange tier because of their deceptive difficulty, could potentially be Orange or Red.
- Saki moved down 2 tiers due to possibilities of more closely resembling Pit and taking balancing out of the equation
- Pulse & Minun have a tier of difficulty all to themselves

*old change list 11/26*
- Black Shadow/Ganondorf moved up 1 tier due to possible challenges creating a decent sword moveset for Dorf



Please note that characters within each tier are not in any particular order.

 

[andalsoandy]

He could use PK Ground to shake the screen for around 15 seconds, tripping others every time they'd hit the ground.

That would totally piss people off.