New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[PsionicSabreur]

I mentioned a taunt before, he takes the fencing stance from the moment before he lunges at you (from the video in my moveset demonstration) and his eyepiece glows.

 

[trojanpooh]

Confirmed: Masked Man for top tier (Everybody is scared of LOSING against him so they let him win lol)

Jokes on you, I have no emotional attachment to the Mother series.

 

[JCOnyx]

I would just like to point out to everyone down-voting characters based on the judgement that they're not bringing enough to the table... this is a clone engine we are talking about. Think realistically here for a moment, do you really think the PMBR want to make 5 completely new characters from scratch? That's completely ridiculous and it will never happen. Think of how many hours they would have to put in to do that, give them some slack.

If we look at other clones already within the game, there's Falco, Wolf, Ganondorf, Tink, Luigi, and Lucas. All of these character's have movesets that are similar to their counterparts. What sets them apart from one another are minor tweaks to some of their moves mechanics like Falco's Dair, slight changes to their movesets like all of Luigi's aerials in general, or stats/physics changes like their weight and fall speed. All of these combine to create a completely different experience when playing as one of these clones in place of their counterparts.

Now, let's look at the first two character's revealed for the clone engine, Roy and Mewtwo. We already know that these two are returning vets coming from Melee, but let's assume that this is what they are looking for when deciding possible clone engine candidates. Roy's moveset is extremely reminiscent of Marth's, with some minor tweaks to help diversify their playstyles, just like all of the others. Mewtwo on the other hand has a lot to differentiate himself from his counterpart, Lucario. But, you have to remember that he's a returning vet so they already had a moveset to go by when creating all of his animations. Even still, Mewtwo took a supposed 700 hours to make.

Taking all of this into consideration, it looks like they are searching for characters that they won't have too difficult of a time with. I'm sure they wouldn't like to work on anything substantially harder than Mewtwo, the PMBR have lives of their own too you know.

Now I'm going to try to list all of the character's we've brought up throughout this thread by how difficult it would be to create them:

- Dark Samus
- Ninten
- Shadow (If he remains extremely similar to Sonic, meaning no projectiles like guns or chaos magic)
- Knuckles
- Pichu
- Telda
- Micaiah
- Claus/Masked Man
- Liquid Snake
- Sami/Andy
- Bowser Jr.
- Hector
- Tetra (It depends on how they'd want to make this character. She could be one rank higher if she had an extremely similar moveset like Tink or Shiek, but I don't see that happening)
- Black Shadow/Ganondorf (Even though they'd just have to create a model for Black Shadow, creating Dorfs sword moveset could be a challenge)
- Lip (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Could possibly play like Lucas or Ness and go up one rank)
- Lyn (She could be higher on the list if she's more of a clone, but because of peoples expectations, I've decided to place her here)
- Tails (Flight animations and balancing a speedy character who can possibly float cancel, definitely a challenge)
- Dixie (The hair would be a challenge)
- Skull Kid (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Samurai Goroh (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Waluigi (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Krystal (First ever staff user, could be a challenge)
- Toad (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Tom Nook (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Kamek (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Mach Rider (Possible projectiles, bike riding, and whip/tethers would be a challenge)
- Sukapon (Even if the model would be simple, creating such a unique moveset would be a challenge. Also, unorthodox hit-boxes. Balancing a character like this might be extremely difficult)
- Pokemon Trainer/Red (Would require a creative moveset, and balancing a character who can possibly throw out random pokemon via pokeballs would be a nightmare)
- Boo (A character that is always floating... I expect this would be extremely challenging)
- Paper Mario (Since people seem to want his moveset have his party members come in to help him, I've decided to place him here because of all the extra modeling work that would require or if that's even possible to begin with)
- Pulse & Minun (See Ice Climbers)
- King K. Rool (With his only possible base being DDD, and even that is far stretched, he would be extremely challenging)
- Ridley (Animating winged character's is never easy, and creating a suitable model with fluid animations would be a challenge)
- Issac (Moveset would require a lot of creativity, his psyenergy would be a challenge)
- Saki (Possibly the hardest of them all. Would require a lot of work and projectile capabilities)

*change list*
- Black Shadow/Ganondorf moved up 1 tier due to possible challenges creating a decent sword moveset for Dorf

Alright, that was quite a challenge. If I've missed any characters or you really disagree on someones placement on the list please tell me.

If all of the characters you are up-voting are in the orange/red, there's a problem. That doesn't mean that all characters in the red aren't possible, but the chances of them making multiple characters that would take that amount of work is most likely extremely low. Please remember that the PMBR are just a group of people who are making this amazing mod in their free time. Be true to yourself and vote for who you want but be respectful and think about their limitations when creating these characters.

 

[Fortress]

It's like you put the list in reverse order, or something. Wait, I do think that you got it backwards. Red are for downvotes.

No offense, but that's a pretty 'safe' list. Everything on there is, well, take Shadow for example. "Pretty much has to be the same character, no projectiles blah, blah, whatever". I mean, come on. 'Clone' doesn't entail 'safe'.

 

[trojanpooh]

I'd argue that Bowser Jr. should be considered easier, Ganondorf/Black Shadow should be considered much harder, and Pichu should be in a tier of simplicity on his own.

 

[Shin F.]

It's like you put the list in reverse order, or something. Wait, I do think that you got it backwards. Red are for downvotes.

He's ranking them on ease of making the character, not votes.

I'd argue that Bowser Jr. should be considered easier, Ganondorf/Black Shadow should be considered much harder, and Pichu should be in a tier of simplicity on his own.

Nah, the characters he's with would take the same amount of effort, really. I agree with the list for the most part, although I think Isaac could move up a rank or two since he can take most of his standard animations from other sword users. Only his specials would be difficult, and as mentioned, some of them can be borrowed from others. (DK's Hand Slap modified into Quake, for example.)

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Ah, that second point is very valid. Of course, with Ninten and Masked Man, there's no 'inexplicable attack' thing, so we can show their techniques however we want, especially since Smash already has a general look for PSI attacks.

By the way, to me both would have original movesets. Ninten would have unique specials (he could borrow some normals from the other two I guess) so that he could be a surprise for people expecting another Ness clone, especially given that they look similar even with Ninten's commercial clothes. I think it's weird that people look at Masked Man and say he could be a clone of the other two, instead of his own character, when it's more clear than Ninten that he could bring more to the table. He's tragic AND badass (looking, at least), makind him another Ness clone would be weird.

I just looked over my opinions and I find it interesting that 4 of the characters I support (Toad, Ninten, Masked Man, and now Skull Kid) could all very easily borrow from their body shapes from Ness or Lucas. I guess I'm just a big Mother fan.

 

[Banjodorf]

I agree, although I'm not sure Isaac would be ALL that difficult outside of certain psynergy. (Relatively difficult, don't bite me.) I mean, Push exists in-game already, and stuff like Quake might be replicatable by using stuff like Togepi's metronome EQ with tweaks. I dunno though.

I see Dixie as being more like Luigi, and they've done that many modifications to existing Brawl characters. Masked Man is the same I feel.

I could see Skull Kid/Waluigi presenting issues but nothing they couldn't tackle. I do agree they might worth with some easy-to-clone characters, but they'd want at least a couple of them to be unique enough and super hypey (Isaac is my bet.)

 

[Fortress]

Well, I completely misread. That'll teach me to Smashboards while watching Justice League.

 

[JCOnyx]

It's like you put the list in reverse order, or something. Wait, I do think that you got it backwards. Red are for downvotes.

No offense, but that's a pretty 'safe' list. Everything on there is, well, take Shadow for example. "Pretty much has to be the same character, no projectiles blah, blah, whatever". I mean, come on. 'Clone' doesn't entail 'safe'.

That list isn't my vote list... that's a list of character's based on how much effort it would require for the PMBR to create those characters.

I could put Pichu one tier above everyone else, but I think that some of those characters could be just as easy as Pichu (especially since I'm positive they'd want to tweak her in some regard, she couldn't just be ported over and call it good). I would consider Black Shadow/Ganondorf a yellow at max, but since I could see it being a bit more challenging to create dorfs sword moveset, I'll go ahead and put it up a tier.

 

[trojanpooh]

I see Dixie as being more like Luigi, and they've done that many modifications to existing Brawl characters. Masked Man is the same I feel.

You're missing the part where Dixie has hair to animate. That alone makes her much harder than almost any other character.

Nah, the characters he's with would take the same amount of effort, really.

Who? Bowser Jr. or Pichu? because the way I see it Pichu would be much easier than any other character because he already has a base in Melee, like Roy and Mewtwo did.

 

[red9rd]

I think we can all agree that what ever final smash Claus has The background should appear to be one of his nightmare backgrounds.

For a reference pic for each animation http://earthbound.wikia.com/wiki/Unused_Boss_(Mother_3) look at the gallery down at the bottom of the page.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Also that list said Toad could be tricky because he'd be an original character but that's not 100 % the case, in the OP in the Toad section Anti Guy linked to a moveset I made for him being a potential Mario clone. People expressed interest in the idea and I also felt pretty special being recognized, so if you're curious about Toad as a clone check it out :D

 

[Shin F.]

You're missing the part where Dixie has hair to animate. That alone makes her much harder than almost any other character.


Who? Bowser Jr. or Pichu? because the way I see it Pichu would be much easier than any other character because he already has a base in Melee, like Roy and Mewtwo did.

Right, but they're not just porting characters, as they've explained, and chances are they would want to balance her, which would be very time consuming because of her self-damaging gimmick.

I think we can all agree that what ever final smash Claus has The background should appear to be one of his nightmare backgrounds.

For a reference pic for each animation http://earthbound.wikia.com/wiki/Unused_Boss_(Mother_3) look at the gallery down at the bottom of the page.

I don't think so. It wasn't even actually in the game. There's a reason that article's called 'Unused' Boss.

 

[Banjodorf]

You're missing the part where Dixie has hair to animate. That alone makes her much harder than almost any other character.

True. I honestly can't think of a single thing in the game propeller hair could be based on. However, I'm sure the PMBR is up to the challenge. You're right though. Edit: Then again, I look at the tweaks to Snake (cigs, flicking cigs and lighting them, using the knife) none of those animations or things existed prior to P:M, so I'm not going to doubt their capabilities here.

As for Pichu, it might depend on what they'd want to do to him. Whether they want to tweak him, give him a mechanic like Brawl Lucario or something and more, or just balance his damage and weight and port him. I guarantee it'd be the former, so it might take longer than you'd think.

I'm not convinced they'd do Pichu though. Just not a very "hype" addition for most.

Edit 2: Wait a minute! Could Dixie just have higher jump than Diddy, and have the Up-B be an altered version of DK's spinning kong? I mean, granted, shed probably have some hair attacks instead of tail ones, but yeah.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Alright, that was quite a challenge. If I've missed any characters or you really disagree on someones placement on the list please tell me.

If all of the characters you are up-voting are in the orange/red, there's a problem. That doesn't mean that all characters in the red aren't possible, but the chances of them making multiple characters that would take that amount of work is most likely extremely low. Please remember that the PMBR are just a group of people who are making this amazing mod in their free time. Be true to yourself and vote for who you want but be respectful and think about their limitations when creating these characters.

You certainly have been readin names only, and came up with your own conclusions. :D

Saki, dead last? Come on... I already suggested he could be a clone of Pit EASILY. All he needs is rapidfire, fast-fall-y-iness, bigger sword range, and no flight, and that in itself is essentially SAKI. There's also been suggestions of him being a clone of ZSS which IMO is pretty valid too.

And I'm sure you can't just port a moveset over another character without even hoping for the best... Testing + trial & error MUST be crucial in order for "Blackondorf" to work. That's TWICE the ammount of work for a normal character suggestion, since you're essentially working on two characters.

 

[Fortress]

That list isn't my vote list... that's a list of character's based on how much effort it would require for the PMBR to create those characters.

Yeah, I had that told to me already. I'm otherwise-distracted with cartoons and whatnot, and pretty much entirely misread what that list was. Netlix is incredible like that.

 

[Saito]

Now I'm going to try to list all of the character's we've brought up throughout this thread by how difficult it would be to create them:

Spoiler

- Dark Samus
- Ninten
- Shadow (If he remains extremely similar to Sonic, meaning no projectiles like guns or chaos magic)
- Knuckles
- Pichu
- Telda
- Micaiah
- Claus/Masked Man
- Liquid Snake
- Sami/Andy
- Bowser Jr.
- Hector
- Tetra (It depends on how they'd want to make this character. She could be one rank higher if she had an extremely similar moveset like Tink or Shiek, but I don't see that happening)
- Black Shadow/Ganondorf (Even though they'd just have to create a model for Black Shadow, creating Dorfs sword moveset could be a challenge)
- Lip (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Could possibly play like Lucas or Ness and go up one rank)
- Lyn (She could be higher on the list if she's more of a clone, but because of peoples expectations, I've decided to place her here)
- Tails (Flight animations and balancing a speedy character who can possibly float cancel, definitely a challenge)
- Dixie (The hair would be a challenge)
- Skull Kid (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Samurai Goroh (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Waluigi (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Krystal (First ever staff user, could be a challenge)
- Toad (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Tom Nook (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Kamek (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Mach Rider (Possible projectiles, bike riding, and whip/tethers would be a challenge)
- Sukapon (Even if the model would be simple, creating such a unique moveset would be a challenge. Also, unorthodox hit-boxes. Balancing a character like this might be extremely difficult)
- Pokemon Trainer/Red (Would require a creative moveset, and balancing a character who can possibly throw out random pokemon via pokeballs would be a nightmare)
- Boo (A character that is always floating... I expect this would be extremely challenging)
- Paper Mario (Since people seem to want his moveset have his party members come in to help him, I've decided to place him here because of all the extra modeling work that would require or if that's even possible to begin with)
- Pulse & Minun (See Ice Climbers)
- King K. Rool (With his only possible base being DDD, and even that is far stretched, he would be extremely challenging)
- Ridley (Animating winged character's is never easy, and creating a suitable model with fluid animations would be a challenge)
- Issac (Moveset would require a lot of creativity, his psyenergy would be a challenge)
- Saki (Possibly the hardest of them all. Would require a lot of work and projectile capabilities)

*change list*
- Black Shadow/Ganondorf moved up 1 tier due to possible challenges creating a decent sword moveset for Dorf

Alright, that was quite a challenge. If I've missed any characters or you really disagree on someones placement on the list please tell me.

I'm going to assume that the colors just represent the area of difficulty and are not in order for each color tier.

This list seems pretty spot on to be honest.

Only thing I would change is shadow's placement which you already made a note about.
I really don't think that he would get away with the Luigi style clone but be a bit more different. Probably like Fox to Wolf different.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm going to vote for Tails, Saki and Bowser Jr.

No particular reason, just who I'd like to see.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

They should only do characters in the yellow tier or easier, and who have mullets.

*** VOTE LIQUID! ***

"We have no past, no future. Only mullets."

Paid for by the Mullet Preservation Committee: "It's only out of style if you let it be."

 

[Banjodorf]

They should only do characters in the yellow tier or easier, and who have mullets.

*** VOTE LIQUID! ***

"We have no past, no future. Only mullets."

Paid for by the Mullet Preservation Committee: "It's only out of style if you let it be."

Isaac frowns in your general direction. I mean come on they already acknowledged they've considered/are considering specifically him.

I'll agree if the tiers are redone and agreed upon by a majority.

Oh and I've been wondering something: Im a huge MGS fan, but what's with all the Liquid support? He's awesome yeah, but didn't they say on the front page "No 3rd parties period."?

...Sorry didn't mean to kill the mood just wanted to set it straight in my head.

 

[Fortress]

Paid for by the Mullet Preservation Committee: "It's only out of style if you let it be."

With my haircut, I can comb my hair back into a mullet.

 

[dude1286]

Whenever I thought of my full votes, I definitely figured in the difficulty of creating the character into my decision, I would be perfectly fine with a slow increase in characters, instead of doing them all together like they did Mewtwo and Roy, so that each character could get the care and attention that they deserve. Some of the harder to make characters would be more worthy of the effort as it can prove that the PMBR is up to any task that it sets for itself. It continues to blow my mind with what they can do with a base set of files, so they can continue to do so for years to come.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Isaac frowns in your general direction. I mean come on they already acknowledged they've considered/are considering specifically him.

I'll agree if the tiers are redone and agreed upon by a majority.

Oh and I've been wondering something: Im a huge MGS fan, but what's with all the Liquid support? He's awesome yeah, but didn't they say on the front page "No 3rd parties period."?

...Sorry didn't mean to kill the mood just wanted to set it straight in my head.

Isaac is actually my top choice for a character, so no worries there. Liquid just needs the support more, and that's where mullet propaganda comes in.

As for the "No 3rd parties period." That's pretty much outdated at this point. It came up during Warchamp's AMA that they would "not even entertain the idea" of non-Nintendo characters. Then, later in the AMA, he said that Shadow fits into the rules for the Clone Engine characters. I'm assuming that he was equating "non-Nintendo characters" to "characters not in Brawl" when he answered the first question, which led to some confusion here. His comment that Shadow followed their Clone Engine rules confirms that third-party characters in Brawl are viable choices.

Anyway, Liquid is included in Brawl, so he's as eligible as anybody else.

As for why...

[collapse=My write-up on Liquid]

So, against my better judgment, I'm going to go ahead and post a full write-up on Liquid Snake. Note: I'm aware that a full write-up with this much detail is likely pointless, but I'm going to do it anyway because hype.

Liquid Snake:

"Are you ready now... my brother?"

In choosing a second Metal Gear representative, the only two characters really competing for the slot, in my mind, are Liquid Snake and Gray Fox. In my opinion, Liquid is the better option. He is more easily cloned than Gray Fox and is more memorable and important than even the cyborg ninja.

"I'm YOU. I'm your shadow."

As far as clones go, Liquid might make the most sense out of all of them. For those who are unfamiliar with Metal Gear Solid, Liquid is Solid Snake's twin; however, he was raised in the UK, where he received training similar to Snake's own. As such, Liquid has the same basic abilities and combat skills as his twin brother. Essentially, anything that is possible of Snake is likely possible for Liquid, making him the perfect candidate for a Snake clone.

In addition, when considering clones for Smash, Snake is just a great choice in general, be it Liquid or an Advance Wars character. Snake is a polarized enough character with an odd enough style of play that a clone of him with different physics and a different playstyle could easily feel entirely different.

"Have at you, Snake!"

A brief on Snake:

Snake is a grappler who relies on his tools to make the most out of his grabs. He has an astoundingly slow horizontal aerial speed along with a fairly average ground speed. His physical attacks have high knockback and are generally used to get opponents away from him so he can collect himself and use his tools to make a better situation for himself later on. Despite the high knockback of his moves, Snake is somewhat capable of putting together absolutely brutal combos that often end in a dead opponent. His biggest weaknesses are easily his predictable recovery and terrible approach.

I would design Liquid's character as such:

Where Snake is a tools-focused grappler, Liquid could be a tools-focused combo-oriented character. Overall, he would be a more straight-forward character than his brother, relying less on stage control and trickery to get by. Liquid would be a faster character than Snake, both on the ground and in the air. In addition, Liquid's physical attacks would be designed less around high knockback and more around leading into one another to create a deep combo game entirely different than his twin's.

Also, Liquid would lack the mine and mortar of Snake, as those fit into Snake's sneaky playstyle more than my vision for Liquid's character. Instead, they would be replaced by hard hitting or good comboing physical attacks.

Specials:

Neutral-B: Flash Grenade - A grenade that would be similar in execution to Snake's grenade, but would serve a different function. The flash grenade would explode on contact with the ground or the enemy, causing no damage but having a good amount of hitstun and allowing Liquid to get in close and start comboing. Like Snake's grenade, the Flash Grenade can hit Liquid as well, so careful use is required.

Side-B: FAMAS - The assault rifle used by Liquid at the end of Metal Gear Solid. In design, the FAMAS would be most similar to Sheik's needles and would fire in bursts. Instead of requiring a charge like the needles, however, the FAMAS would have a limited number of rounds in a clip before it had to be reloaded, similar to Snake's new tranq. gun.

Up-B: Cypher - I couldn't think of a different recovery for Liquid, so I figured we may as well use Snake's. Liquid's would lack the shock that Snake's has, but could serve as part of his combo game, allowing him extra mobility and height to continue combos. His recovery would likely be better than Snake's overall because of his greater horizontal movement speed, but the length of time Cypher is active could be adjusted as needed to account for this.

Down-B: Semtex - Similar to Snake's C4 and mine in design, Liquid's semtex would be dropped on the ground by Liquid, becoming an active mine about a second after it lands. The semtex would activate when stepped on by an opponent, and would automatically go off after about ten seconds or when another one is placed. This would offer Liquid less stage control than Snake's C4 or mine, as leaving that trait to Snake is best for keeping the two different and would not mesh well with Liquid's design. The semtex would lack the killing power of the mine or C4, but would pop the opponent up into a comboable position.

"You enjoy all the killing, that's why!"

Why include Liquid in Project M?

Liquid, as a character, is extremely important to his franchise, being the primary villain of the first Metal Gear Solid game whose legacy stretches well beyond just one game. In addition, he can provide an interesting archetype to the roster and can be done fairly easily as a clone of Snake.

The only real cons I can see for Liquid are that he is a third party character, and for many that is a deal breaker, but I honestly believe that he is worth the effort.

Thoughts?

[/collapse]

Basically, he's awesome, important to his series, and an easier clone than most other suggestions.

 

[JCOnyx]

You certainly have been readin names only, and came up with your own conclusions. :D

Saki, dead last? Come on... I already suggested he could be a clone of Pit EASILY. All he needs is rapidfire, fast-fall-y-iness, bigger sword range, and no flight, and that in itself is essentially SAKI. There's also been suggestions of him being a clone of ZSS which IMO is pretty valid too.

And I'm sure you can't just port a moveset over another character without even hoping for the best... Testing + trial & error MUST be crucial in order for "Blackondorf" to work. That's TWICE the ammount of work for a normal character suggestion, since you're essentially working on two characters.

As Saito said, the character's are just placed into their respective tiers and are in no particular order. I would consider Saki to still be in the red because of an ability to rapid fire his projectile(s), increased sword range, fast falling, and speed. Do you even understands what that entails? That just sounds way to good, and would require a ton of playtesting and balancing, more so than any other character I would argue (expect possibly Sukapon). Animations like that aren't easy either, and they would have to touch up on his model in order for it to have the same quality of the others. "Might" not be as challenging as someone like King K. Rool, but it's still quite a difficult challenge.

Don't get me wrong, I gave the dude a half vote myself and would love to see him included, but the premise of his moveset is godly on top of everything else.

To me, the most logical step towards making Black Shadow/Ganondorf would be putting Black Shadow in Dorfs slot and putting Dorf in the clone slot. This means that the only thing they would have to do for Black Shadow is possibly adjust some hit boxes (they shouldn't have to, they can easily make a model that has the same proportions of Dorf) and replace all of Dorfs textures. Testing to make sure the texture hack doesn't glitch out is implied and isn't that difficult. Unless I'm missing a step, please tell me if I'm missing something important there.

 

[Solbliminal]

They should only do characters in the yellow tier or easier, and who have mullets.

*** VOTE LIQUID! ***

"We have no past, no future. Only mullets."

Paid for by the Mullet Preservation Committee: "It's only out of style if you let it be."

These liquid advertisements can't be ad blocked. Damn it all Google Chrome you have failed me!

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I thought the difficulty list was fairly accurate, and please don't mind me for asking, but what makes Claus 2nd tier compared to the others?

 

[Shin F.]

I thought the difficulty list was fairly accurate, and please don't mind me for asking, but what makes Claus 2nd tier compared to the others?

I think it's his projectiles/ PK Thunder Beam thing and his wing/flying animations (which Ness/Lucas don't have)... but I'm not sure.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I think it's his projectiles/ PK Thunder Beam thing and his wing/flying animations (which Ness/Lucas don't have)... but I'm not sure.

The wings are static, though. They're more like glider wings.
The beam is just different graphics/effects over PK Freeze, too.

 

[Shin F.]

The wings are static, though. They're more like glider wings.
The beam is just different graphics/effects over PK Freeze, too.

They wouldn't look right if they were completely static. Those things aren't just for looks - he flies with them, and they may be static on his sprite, but in a 3d Environment, it wouldn't look right that way.

 

[Fortress]

They wouldn't look right if they were completely static. Those things aren't just for looks - he flies with them, and they may be static on his sprite, but in a 3d Environment, it wouldn't look right that way.

It'd be like Buzz Lightyear. **** be hype.

 

[Shin F.]

It'd be like Buzz Lightyear. **** be hype.

Project Melee - to infinity, and BEYOND!

 

[PsionicSabreur]

They wouldn't look right if they were completely static. Those things aren't just for looks - he flies with them, and they may be static on his sprite, but in a 3d Environment, it wouldn't look right that way.

I think I used static in the wrong sense. On his sprite, the wings have a metal frame, and do sort of have a Buzz Lightyear thing in that they fold out from his jetpack. There's a video clip in the moveset I posted, I think.

 

[JCOnyx]

My reasoning behind placing Claus/Masked Man in the second tier is for the exact reasons you guys brought up. They'd have to decide if the wanted "static" wings, or wings kind of like Meta Knights. Also, balancing a PSI-spacie with a sword and an arguably better recovery would take more work than the tier one characters, if only because of him having more disjointed hitboxes most likely meaning an even better spacing game overall. He would probably have a far different aerial game compared to Lucas and Ness as well.

I'd imagine his aerials to be more like Marth's than anyone else's to be honest (which would be awesome with DJC). Personally, I would prefer the "static" wings because I'm partial to the jet pack recovery concept with the wings only being used as stabilizers. Also, it would save them from having to animate his wings, that's a big plus.

 

[Banjodorf]

As for the "No 3rd parties period." That's pretty much outdated at this point. It came up during Warchamp's AMA that they would "not even entertain the idea" of non-Nintendo characters. Then, later in the AMA, he said that Shadow fits into the rules for the Clone Engine characters. I'm assuming that he was equating "non-Nintendo characters" to "characters not in Brawl" when he answered the first question, which led to some confusion here. His comment that Shadow followed their Clone Engine rules confirms that third-party characters in Brawl are viable choices.

Anyway, Liquid is included in Brawl, so he's as eligible as anybody else.

Well, that's me sold. I still think Isaac is a character they're going to give a real college try to, and I'm glad we agree. Now I'm going to have a hard time fitting Liquid on my most-wanted lists though.

Gah! How could I have been so foolish?! What kind of MGS fan am I?!

Uh...

Isaac
Skull Kid
Claus
Liquid
Dixie

Actually yknow what? That one works just fine.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

My reasoning behind placing Claus/Masked Man in the second tier is for the exact reasons you guys brought up. They'd have to decide if the wanted "static" wings, or wings kind of like Meta Knights. Also, balancing a PSI-spacie with a sword and an arguably better recovery would take more work than the tier one characters, if only because of him having more disjointed hitboxes most likely meaning an even better spacing game overall. He would probably have a far different aerial game compared to Lucas and Ness as well.

I'd imagine his aerials to be more like Marth's than anyone else's to be honest (which would be awesome with DJC). Personally, I would prefer the "static" wings because I'm partial to the jet pack recovery concept with the wings only being used as stabilizers. Also, it would save them from having to animate his wings, that's a big plus.

Alright, I can get that reasoning.

However,

Lucas and Ness both have disjoint hitboxes as well, with their variety of PSI moves (both of their fairs already space like crazy, for example, and a sword would not be too disjoint relative to those)

I'm not trying to force you to read my moveset, because it is sort of bloated, but I do go over a lot of animations that could be borrowed, and ways to balance the character, and there are surprisingly many of both. I also talk about recovery (possibly taking away the tether, shortening the Magnet equivalent's pull).
In short, animation and model work have been stated to cost the most time far and away, and I don't think balancing will figure in so much to cause a huge time commitment. The wings (which should probably just be static) are really the only potentially difficult thing I can identify, and he doesn't even require a new model like most of the first-tier choices.

Just my reasoning on the subject. I do hope I'm not appearing combative.

 

[JCOnyx]

Well, that's me sold. I still think Isaac is a character they're going to give a real college try to, and I'm glad we agree. Now I'm going to have a hard time fitting Liquid on my most-wanted lists though.

Gah! How could I have been so foolish?! What kind of MGS fan am I?!

Uh...

Isaac
Skull Kid
Claus
Liquid
Dixie

Actually yknow what? That one works just fine.

I really like that list. I need to make modifications to mine since there's a lot of new character's I'd like to give half votes to, since I posted my list on page 30. I'll save that for another time though.

You know, I've never been a big fan of Snake's moveset. I find it to be a little... dirty? But that doesn't mean I don't support adding another character with that sort of playstyle, I know others really enjoy it. And besides, I like the way Hungry Headcrab sold the character. Liquid sounds right up my ally.

Mullets. Mullets everywhere.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

I would just like to point out to everyone down-voting characters based on the judgement that they're not bringing enough to the table... this is a clone engine we are talking about. Think realistically here for a moment, do you really think the PMBR want to make 5 completely new characters from scratch? That's completely ridiculous and it will never happen. Think of how many hours they would have to put in to do that, give them some slack.

If we look at other clones already within the game, there's Falco, Wolf, Ganondorf, Tink, Luigi, and Lucas. All of these character's have movesets that are similar to their counterparts. What sets them apart from one another are minor tweaks to some of their moves mechanics like Falco's Dair, slight changes to their movesets like all of Luigi's aerials in general, or stats/physics changes like their weight and fall speed. All of these combine to create a completely different experience when playing as one of these clones in place of their counterparts.

Now, let's look at the first two character's revealed for the clone engine, Roy and Mewtwo. We already know that these two are returning vets coming from Melee, but let's assume that this is what they are looking for when deciding possible clone engine candidates. Roy's moveset is extremely reminiscent of Marth's, with some minor tweaks to help diversify their playstyles, just like all of the others. Mewtwo on the other hand has a lot to differentiate himself from his counterpart, Lucario. But, you have to remember that he's a returning vet so they already had a moveset to go by when creating all of his animations. Even still, Mewtwo took a supposed 700 hours to make.

Taking all of this into consideration, it looks like they are searching for characters that they won't have too difficult of a time with. I'm sure they wouldn't like to work on anything substantially harder than Mewtwo, the PMBR have lives of their own too you know.

Now I'm going to try to list all of the character's we've brought up throughout this thread by how difficult it would be to create them:

- Dark Samus
- Ninten
- Shadow (If he remains extremely similar to Sonic, meaning no projectiles like guns or chaos magic)
- Knuckles
- Pichu
- Telda
- Micaiah
- Claus/Masked Man
- Liquid Snake
- Sami/Andy
- Bowser Jr.
- Hector
- Tetra (It depends on how they'd want to make this character. She could be one rank higher if she had an extremely similar moveset like Tink or Shiek, but I don't see that happening)
- Black Shadow/Ganondorf (Even though they'd just have to create a model for Black Shadow, creating Dorfs sword moveset could be a challenge)
- Lip (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Could possibly play like Lucas or Ness and go up one rank)
- Lyn (She could be higher on the list if she's more of a clone, but because of peoples expectations, I've decided to place her here)
- Tails (Flight animations and balancing a speedy character who can possibly float cancel, definitely a challenge)
- Dixie (The hair would be a challenge)
- Skull Kid (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Samurai Goroh (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Waluigi (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Krystal (First ever staff user, could be a challenge)
- Toad (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Tom Nook (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Kamek (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge)
- Mach Rider (Possible projectiles, bike riding, and whip/tethers would be a challenge)
- Sukapon (Even if the model would be simple, creating such a unique moveset would be a challenge. Also, unorthodox hit-boxes. Balancing a character like this might be extremely difficult)
- Pokemon Trainer/Red (Would require a creative moveset, and balancing a character who can possibly throw out random pokemon via pokeballs would be a nightmare)
- Boo (A character that is always floating... I expect this would be extremely challenging)
- Paper Mario (Since people seem to want his moveset have his party members come in to help him, I've decided to place him here because of all the extra modeling work that would require or if that's even possible to begin with)
- Pulse & Minun (See Ice Climbers)
- King K. Rool (With his only possible base being DDD, and even that is far stretched, he would be extremely challenging)
- Ridley (Animating winged character's is never easy, and creating a suitable model with fluid animations would be a challenge)
- Issac (Moveset would require a lot of creativity, his psyenergy would be a challenge)
- Saki (Possibly the hardest of them all. Would require a lot of work and projectile capabilities)

*change list*
- Black Shadow/Ganondorf moved up 1 tier due to possible challenges creating a decent sword moveset for Dorf

Alright, that was quite a challenge. If I've missed any characters or you really disagree on someones placement on the list please tell me.

If all of the characters you are up-voting are in the orange/red, there's a problem. That doesn't mean that all characters in the red aren't possible, but the chances of them making multiple characters that would take that amount of work is most likely extremely low. Please remember that the PMBR are just a group of people who are making this amazing mod in their free time. Be true to yourself and vote for who you want but be respectful and think about their limitations when creating these characters.

4 of my top 5 picks were in the orange and red sections. Outside of them, Claus/Masked Man would be pretty neat. He and Goroh are probably my 6 and 7th picks if any of my top 5 choices don't make it.

But if they decide to just add Pichu and call it a day (since it's been playable in previous games and is pretty much the safest and easiest choice that's been frequently mentioned thus far), I wouldn't complain personally.


EDIT: and if MGS gets a second character my vote goes to Otacon. Him versus Kirby would be the best matchup ever. *Kirby copies Otacon and gets the power to pee on himself*

 

[JCOnyx]

4 of my top 5 picks were in the orange and red sections. Outside of them, Claus/Masked Man would be pretty neat. He and Goroh are probably my 6 and 7th picks if any of my top 5 choices don't make it.

But if they decide to just add Pichu and call it a day (since it's been playable in previous games and is pretty much the safest and easiest choice that's been frequently mentioned thus far), I wouldn't complain personally.


EDIT: and if MGS gets a second character my vote goes to Otacon. Him versus Kirby would be the best matchup ever. *Kirby copies Otacon and gets the power to pee on himself*

It's going to be hard to keep yourself from voting for a majority of orange/red characters since those are usually the more interesting choices. Obviously voting for 5 orange is better than voting for 5 red and I should have probably worded that a little better, but as I said people should just think about the limitations the PMBR have to work with when creating these characters.

Also, some of those oranges could be in the yellow depending on how they decide to flesh out those characters, like Tetra and Lip. And as for Lyn, the discussions about her possible moveset sounded like a lot more work than a simple clone, but I'm still a little skeptical on her being in the orange. I could easily create another tier for all of the characters that are hard pressed between yellow and orange.

Alright, I can get that reasoning.

However,

Lucas and Ness both have disjoint hitboxes as well, with their variety of PSI moves (both of their fairs already space like crazy, for example, and a sword would not be too disjoint relative to those)

I'm not trying to force you to read my moveset, because it is sort of bloated, but I do go over a lot of animations that could be borrowed, and ways to balance the character, and there are surprisingly many of both. I also talk about recovery (possibly taking away the tether, shortening the Magnet equivalent's pull).
In short, animation and model work have been stated to cost the most time far and away, and I don't think balancing will figure in so much to cause a huge time commitment. The wings (which should probably just be static) are really the only potentially difficult thing I can identify, and he doesn't even require a new model like most of the first-tier choices.

Just my reasoning on the subject. I do hope I'm not appearing combative.

No, I completely understand, there's nothing combative about your posts. Although I don't believe the modeling work would be that difficult for Claus. He literally has one of the best bases to work from in the form of Lucas. But even still, with being able to borrow a lot of animations from others, they'd have to be adjusted accordingly to his size and then adequately tested, and that's where the effort comes in. Because he's borrowing so many animations from others instead of just one character, that already slightly increases his workload. Not by a whole lot, but I think just out of the simplest of the clone range like Pichu or Telda.

He's simple, but not "easy" is what I'm trying to get at. I hope that makes sense xD

Also, if Claus/Masked Man does become a thing, I think it would be best to remove his tether. Shortening the pull on the Magnet equivalent would probably be a buff not a nerf by the way.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I would like to go over Sukapon for a little bit. In response to this:

- Sukapon (Even if the model would be simple, creating such a unique moveset would be a challenge. Also, unorthodox hit-boxes. Balancing a character like this might be extremely difficult)

The unique moveset quip is debatable, as Sukapon already has one (there are more videos on youtube as well), though I want to talk about something different. The hit-boxes. Granted, the hit-boxes WOULD be unorthodox to balance for Sukapon...with the current design he is recognized with, anyways. Let's take a look at it right now:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/Joymechfight_boxart.PNG

This is the game's official boxart. A head, a body, two arms, and two legs. Simple, but it poses a problem: invisible limbs. With invisible limbs, you have only a very vague judgement of when an opponent's attacks are going to hit you. This poses an even bigger threat to the opponent, as they won't know how far Sukapon's limbs would stretch out due to the fact that the character doesn't possess limbs. So, in order to remedy this problem, you have to change Sukapon's design...while still keeping Sukapon recognizable to the audience playing him. This could be done in either two ways. First up, why not look at an in-game example?

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Fighting_Alloy_Team

This is probably the closest thing to Sukapon in correlation to design. They're all pretty simple, and they all have dignified limbs. You know when you will hit them, and you know whenever their attacks will be able to hit you. However, this is not a perfect solution, as Sukapon's character is specifically a mass of floating limbs. Adding limbs to Sukapon in this manner would lead to arguments about being "too drastic of a change" or "doesn't seem like Sukapon anymore". So here, we meet a conundrum. Giving limbs to Sukapon would correct the issues with hitboxes, but it goes against the nature and the feel of the character. But without limbs, it would be directly counter-intuitive to gameplay balance. What could be done to fix this, you might ask? The answer is quite simple...at least, I believe so. For our answer, we will take a look at another video game character, who also so happens to be a mass of floating limbs (and no, it's not Rayman).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/43/Vectorman_cover.jpg

Behold: Vector Man. While he is simply a mass of floating limbs, much like Sukapon, he has limbs. Although they are not necessarily as defined as the limbs of the Fighting Alloy Team, they give the player an understanding of whenever an attack may hit Vector Man, and they also give the player a defined sense of how far Vector Man's limbs can stretch (granted Vector Man can morph into other forms, but I am talking about his base form). For those unfamiliar with Vector Man, let's take a deeper look into how the character moves and plays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY0CjXG--S8

As you can see, although Vector Man is just a mass of limbs, you can get a "feel" of how Vector Man runs, jumps, and how far he can extend his hand while shooting (which also looks like punching by the way). Adding more floating spheres to represent Sukapon's limbs would give players a more accurate feel of how far Sukapon's attacks will reach, when he will be hit by an attack, and to make his animations seem more fluid as opposed to wonky. There could even be a "glow" effect added around Sukapon's body and limbs to further signify his hit-boxes. Is this a perfect solution? No, but it is the best solution in concern to staying as close to Sukapon's design whilstadding a sense of clarity when it comes to gameplay balance. People will still recognize Sukapon as a floating mass of limbs, and the character suddenly becomes easier to understand in concerns to animations and hitboxes. Additionally, characters other than Sukapon have "limbs" that are similar to Vector Man's. They can probably be found on youtube, but you'll have to search for those examples on your own.

Would people be against this design change? Maybe, but Project M is about redefining the things that made Melee great, and making it better...as opposed to being a direct copy. The very same concept could be applied to Sukapon. He would retain everything that made him great, but better. And I am a very firm believer that not many other potential characters would be able to represent this concept as well as Sukapon would. The creativity, combined with the simple yet boundless possibilities, that Sukapon possesses perfectly mirrors Project M's goals in my eyes; which is why Sukapon has received my full vote of support as a potential candidate for being a character in Project Melee.

When it comes to coding/programming issues though in relation to Sukapon, I can't really say, as I am not a coder or programmer. That would be left in the hands and ability of the Project M team. So the question of it being possible isn't really certain to me. But what is certain to me is that the task would be left in very capable hands.


Thank you for reading.