New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[shinhed-echi]

And get rid of his sick d-air? You jest.

Or... Bdown.

I don't care about Black Shadow at all. I don't even care about F-Zero as a series. But it's the only way that I see to give Ganondorf the moves he deserves

I rest my case....

I just said this, but you probably missed it - instead of Black Shadow, just keep Ganondorf as is and bring OOT Ganondorf with a new move set...

Heck, I think I even prefer this, TBH. But I still believe PMBR could do wonders with a stance change for him. We'd just have to wait and see.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I vote that we change P:M Ganon's name to Canondorf, because those aren't mere guns he's rocking.

And yes, we are still doing puns. Or just wordplay in general now.

By the way, I feel kind of safe in assuming that Isaac will claim a clone spot. He's popular among the fans and the PMBR seems rather eager to experiment with a unique character design as evidenced [read: as I inferred] from Warchamp's reddit Q&A session about 3.0. All his future of 3.0 answers involved the Clone engine. Isaac is a super unique character and the PMBR would probably do a lovely job with him - only downside being the possibility of a Smash4 incarnation.

We could always just rename him Matthew then, though

 

[shinhed-echi]

I vote that we change P:M Ganon's name to Canondorf, because those aren't mere guns he's rocking.

And yes, we are still doing puns. Or just wordplay in general now.

By the way, I feel kind of safe in assuming that Isaac will claim a clone spot. He's popular among the fans and the PMBR seems rather eager to experiment with a unique character design as evidenced [read: as I inferred] from Warchamp's reddit Q&A session about 3.0. All his future of 3.0 answers involved the Clone engine. Isaac is a super unique character and the PMBR would probably do a lovely job with him - only downside being the possibility of a Smash4 incarnation.

We could always just rename him Matthew then, though

For the sake of changing the topic.

No we couldn't :D Matthew came AFTER Brawl, BUT we could rename him FELIX.
I'm eager to see what they can pull off with Isaac.

 

[Fortress]

Or... Bdown.

You mean the only supplement to his already-poor recovery?

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

If this thread is any indication, and if the PMBR really wants to experiment with clones, Isaac is practically a shoe-in at this point.

He's just too popular and too feasible to deny.
The only thing in the way is the possibility of a Smash 4 inclusion, which is just too unlikely to even fathom.

 

[ChronoBound]

Snake is not acrobatic.

The way he is able to contort his body seems pretty acrobatic to me.

I think that Snake's moveset wouldn't work because he is based on traps and controlling space. Isn't Sami's big thing that her forces run n' gun better than anyone else's? She overruns territory very efficiently and quickly, and I don't think there is any indication of CQC ability, although that's a lesser concern. Mines also seem out of place to me, as does C4

None of those weapons seem out of place for the Advance Wars universe.

Overall, it just seems more likely that she would have something more suited to gunning down her enemy quickly. Setting a mine, grabbing the opponent, sticking with C4, tech chasing for a regrab, then finally throwing her opponent onto a mine and activating C4 for a KO does not seem like a good fit for playstyle. If Sami were as slow as Snake I'd actually be a little disappointed.

I am sure the team could come up with a playstyle that is much different from Snake despite using a lot of the same moves as Snake. It would actually be a very interesting challenge for the team to create a compelling clone, especially considering how the most popular choices are Isaac, Ridley, and Lyn, whom will probably be non-clones.

If the Nikita was imbalanced on Snake, it will be the same on Sami. Giving it back is bad idea, unless it were modified to a normal rocket launcher, which would require extra work and still might turn out to be a balancing act.

Give them more faith. They were able to balance a whole lot of the cast. At worst, they will simply have to nerf the offensive capabilities of the Nikita.

I am far from fond of the vBrawl fsmash, too. I think the concept was a little ridiculous and it's usefulness compared to anything you could put in it's place is questionable. I realize it would sort of work better on Sami, but I'm not exactly eager to see it make a return. There's my subjective reasoning.

Different strokes for different people. Personally, it was one of my favorite moves for Snake, and I know it was the same for a lot of other people I know who use Snake.

I'm sorry you still feel that way about the Masked Man

Non-clones take over 700 hours (especially so for ones that don't have a base to work with like Mewtwo). Clones take only 300 hours.

Sami requires an entirely new model, I don't think she'll be easy by any means.

So will every possible character that will make it into Project M including Masked Man.

I don't think animations will carry over too smoothly, either, if you're only taking a vaguely similar model and probably speeding up animations, etc. I don't know how effectively I can consider your statement without actually hearing your breakdown of the process and what will cause the difficulties, though.

Personally, I think you are seeing a lot of problems that don't actually exist. I think in a scenario where Lyn, Dixie Kong, Isaac, Ridley, and Sami are the newcomers selected, Sami is actually probably going to be by far the easiest of those characters to implement. Really, there is probably few other characters out there that would be as easy to implement as Sami.

 

[trojanpooh]

Y'know, the reason I want Ganondorf/Black Shadow is because it's insulting, as a Zelda fan, to see someone else wearing Ganondorf's face in Smash. The man that's running around Warlock Punching people is awesome, don't get me wrong. He's just not Ganondorf. Coming from this perspective, it feels wrong.

The thing about Ganon mains who like him for his moves and not for the character is valid, but if the moveset is still there as Black Shadow, they can always put a Ganondorf skin over it with no problem, and he would be no different than what they're used to. Zelda fans who want Ganondorf to be himself can't make him a moveset as easily. That's why I support the idea. True, I don't care about Black Shadow at all. I don't even care about F-Zero as a series. But it's the only way that I see to give Ganondorf the moves he deserves while not leaving people who main him in the cold, other than just having another Ganondorf - and that's overkill, IMO.

I've never understood why people think Smashondorf is such an insult to the Zelda lore. I mean, Ganondorf has only been in 3 Zelda games out of 10's and he's never once had a consistent fighting style. Smashondorf is a big scary brute of a man brimming with power, seems pretty appropriate for the owner of the Triforce of Power.

The issue with giving his moveset to Totally Not Batman Man is there are tons of people who are fans of both Ganondorf and Smashondorf. That leaves them in the dust just because a few people played some Zelda on their Gamecubes and figure themselves experts on the franchise. I'd downvote that idea so hard if I hadn't already downvoted it 20 pages back.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm sure they would go beyond just mixing and matching moves of different characters, but imagine a swordsman with Donkey Kong's Down B/Charizard's DSmash for tech chasing [representing that Earth Psynergy], a ranged side special with good knockback in Move [nerferd version of the assist trophy move] and an actually good recovery because of psychic-power themed flight or somesuch. Might be a little on the bonkers side but boy would it be a fun character to play.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Why is it so hard to think up swordplay additions to the Ganon we have?
Warlock Punch could be changed
Fsmash could be given an optional second strike (he uses a similar elbow->slash in TP)
Nair could be a double sword spin with an identical hitbox, again taken from TP, or a kick followed by a slash
Same for dsmash or usmash
Utilt could be an overhead strike with his sword
There are plenty of workable ideas

It only takes small changes to make current Ganondorf feel like completely Ganondorf. Just work on small details, like after launching his foe with Dark Dive he throws his arms out in a similar fashion to when he starts to fly in OoT, or his fthrow being that reflective backhand he uses in OoT. There are so many alternatives to just making an entirely new character and losing all the canon moves he already has (ftilt dtilt fsmash fair bair side-b, arguably some others)

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Heck, I think I even prefer this, TBH. But I still believe PMBR could do wonders with a stance change for him. We'd just have to wait and see.

I think a stance change could be okay... But the projectile is the biggest thing for me and most people who want this to happen.

But furthermore, TP Ganondorf actually fits a bit more into Brawls Ganondorf move set than OOT Ganon. So bringing in OOT Ganondorf as another character probably makes more sense.

When Melee included Ganondorf, before we heard he was a clone, people were expecting an OOT move set representation of him. So if we WERE to get an OOT representation, he would not play at all like a big heavy hitter the way he is now. OOT Ganondorf in my mind would have a completely different feel. He would be lighter, and be more floaty (almost like Mewtwo). Also since he would be lighter, his recovery would also be much better.. he should be able to fly for example. Then, his movements in general should be kind of like Mewtwos where he floats around all the time (during walking and running animations). Most of his hand to hand attacks should be based on different types of magic rather than kicking and punching. And finally, some of his attacks could be sword attacks.

So what it comes down to for me (and I think for others on my side), is that we want an OOT Ganondorf. He may "borrow" things from other incarnations, but OOT would be the main focus. The projectile and sword issues are only a couple of the bigger issues we have, but I don't think those are the only things. And just to add a point about the sword, people got so hyped about that just because he had it in that spaceworld2000 video, and it showed up in Melee during his winning animation. Doing that was such a tease, and people wanted to see it actually be usable. That being said, having a sword would be cool, but in my opinion it isn't even the main concern.

 

[Inawordyes]

Is there no Vaati sticker?

I included Vaati in my roster picks a few posts back and and there was a discussion about him (in his favor), but it was found out that he has no representation in Brawl, not even as a sticker, so he isn't a viable character for Project M to include, sadly.

so have we all come to a consensus on having pichu in next version?

I just wanted a discussion without Pichu interrupting... But seriously, no Pichu, we're talking about Skull Kid.

I swear your a morbid/golden hybrid xD first you started doing random likes... now walls of texts.... i'm watching you.

Oh and since were talking about skull kid.

Spoiler

obviously it needs work but its something.

Hahaha, I'm a WoT kind-of guy because I feel the need to explain myself a lot (this explanation is already longer than it should be, haha), and I like what I like, and that happens to be a lot of the posts, haha. And yes, yes you are. You weirdo.

At the expense of sounding too hyped or saying "do this character" just for the sake of saying it, I do love Skull Kid, with MM being my favorite LoZ title to date. Already came up with a moveset for Zant, and still think it's totally viable, but Skull Kid has been around in many more titles.

BUT, there's the matter of which Skull Kid would be used as a model, and which one (or ones) it'd inherit traits from.

Let's break down what each one could bring to the table in terms of special attacks alone.

*snip*

I love your ideas for the movesets. I tried and couldn't find an easy way to consolidate them into one moveset, though, as considering there is a direct connection between the OT and MM Skull Kid, being the same character as laid out in the end sequence of MM, and a more indirect connection implying the same thing about the TP Skull Kid, he should embody aspects of all three characters's appearances as he is a reoccurring character (basically what Alfonzo Bagpipez also said in the last post on page 81, haha). As for the costumes, as I laid out in my original post, my own opinion is that since Majora's Mask is what made Skull Kid recognizable, the MM version should be the default, with the Ocarina of Time Skull Kid being an Alternate since both were included as stickers in Brawl (while the Twilight Princess version was not, but I am unsure of the rules regarding Alternate Costumes, and also if they can do more than two with full recolors, or if they'd do recolors at all).

*GANONDORF-BLACK SHADOW DISCUSSION*
No Ganondorf either, that's a tired subject that we've spent just as much time arguing over as we have with Pichu, and both are getting old very fast.

Okay, suddenly I'm consumed by a burning desire to see Blaziken in a smash game ... Flamethrower neutral B for gimping and stifling approaches similar to Zard and Bowser, which is already enough to set him apart from Falcon. Give him less KO potential, more speed, some unique animations/move property tweaks and make his most powerful KO move a full body tackle that makes Blaziken take a significant chunk of the damage he deals to his opponent. Flare Blitz Down-Special or somesuch, Sky Uppercut up-smash that pops up like Lucario's without the multi-hits ... And have Speed Boost as a core mechanic that makes Blaziken go faster the longer he stays out, beginning from a fairly lackluster speed. This completely reflects the way Blaziken actually plays in Pokemon. The skill comes from staying alive long enough to get to a faster pace and constantly adapting to the character's changing speed, both for the player and the opponent.

... Oh my God, I think I hyped myself to the max for something that will never be. Halp

Haha, you made a better moveset than I did, though I do still believe that Flare Blitz should be the Final Smash rather than a D-Special.

 

[Shin F.]

I've never understood why people think Smashondorf is such an insult to the Zelda lore. I mean, Ganondorf has only been in 3 Zelda games out of 10's and he's never once had a consistent fighting style. Smashondorf is a big scary brute of a man brimming with power, seems pretty appropriate for the owner of the Triforce of Power.

The issue with giving his moveset to Totally Not Batman Man is there are tons of people who are fans of both Ganondorf and Smashondorf. That leaves them in the dust just because a few people played some Zelda on their Gamecubes and figure themselves experts on the franchise. I'd downvote that idea so hard if I hadn't already downvoted it 20 pages back.

Even if his fighting's never been the same in-universe, he's never been a downright brawler like he is in Smash, excuse the pun. He's always using some kind of weapon or magic. Sakurai could have taken a moveset from any of his appearances and I'd have been happy. He could have used Sword Ganon, he could have had a Magic Ganon, or Beast Ganon, or Trident Ganon, but he cloned a character Ganondorf had nothing to do with.

About fans of both Ganondorf and his fighting style in Smash - like I said, they can easily put a Ganondorf skin over him. They can even change his name and sound effects back if they want to, and it would take little effort. The only thing we can't change about him on a whim is his moveset, which is the one part that's divisive about him.

Or, let me put it this way: What if Marth or Ike was a Link clone? Or what if Zero Suit Samus was a Peach clone? What if Wario was a Mario clone? What if - let's go a bit crazy here.... what if Lucario was a Luigi clone or something ridiculous like that? I can guarantee there would be fans of those characters wanting them to be true to who they are, and not just slapped on to any old moveset. Ganondorf deserves to be true to who he is. He's not just some tertiary character that only appears on the sidelines. He's Zelda's main villain. He's a bit too important to just slap Captain Falcon's moves on him and call it a day.

Edited:

About Skull Kid - I definitely support him, but I really, really wish it could be Vaati, instead. I like the idea of him using his instrument from Twilight Princess to call down puppets on strings to help him.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

I included Vaati in my roster picks a few posts back and and there was a discussion about him (in his favor), but it was found out that he has no representation in Brawl, not even as a sticker, so he isn't a viable character for Project M to include, sadly.







Hahaha, I'm a WoT kind-of guy because I feel the need to explain myself a lot (this explanation is already longer than it should be, haha), and I like what I like, and that happens to be a lot of the posts, haha. And yes, yes you are. You weirdo.

.

I knew you loved me
....

Spoiler

In all seriousness tho, I just like messing with ppl, you being one of them

 

[trojanpooh]

Or, let me put it this way: What if Marth or Ike was a Link clone? Or what if Zero Suit Samus was a Peach clone? What if Wario was a Mario clone? What if - let's go a bit crazy here.... what if Lucario was a Luigi clone or something ridiculous like that? I can guarantee there would be fans of those characters wanting them to be true to who they are, and not just slapped on to any old moveset. Ganondorf deserves to be true to who he is.

But that's the thing, those don't make any sense where Ganondorf's Smash moveset does. It's powerful, it's brutish, it's aggressive. All things that Ganondorf personifies. Hell, I'd argue that Smash does a better job of representing him (according to the plot of Zelda) than the gameplay of the actual Zelda games. True, on paper it sounds like Ganondorf wouldn't make sense as a Captain Falcon clone, but I'll be damned if it doesn't make work perfectly.

And real quick on the topic of fans just changing him back. I have one word: Tourneys.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

But that's the thing, those don't make any sense where Ganondorf's Smash moveset does. It's powerful, it's brutish, it's aggressive. All things that Ganondorf personifies. Hell, I'd argue that Smash does a better job of representing him (according to the plot of Zelda) than the gameplay of the actual Zelda games. True, on paper it sounds like Ganondorf wouldn't make sense as a Captain Falcon clone, but I'll be damned if it doesn't make work perfectly.

And real quick on the topic of fans just changing him back. I have one word: Tourneys.

This is right on point. Through-out every Zelda game he appears in, Ganondorf is made out to be this all powerful, maniacal beast of a man. Yet, when you actually fight him, he's just a slow tub of lard that telegraphs almost everything he does, which makes for a boss a 5 year old could beat. Granted, it is a kid's game, but the ease of the battle is still kind of a let down, considering all of the build up. I don't see why people want a canonical moveset, when the canon itself isn't that great to begin with.

We already have a moveset that works...why change it for the sake of childhood nostalgia, and NOTHING else?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

If we want to go by canon ...

Give Fox and Falco their damn Arwings back!

Some liberties need to be taken for the sake of this game ...

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I think a stance change could be okay... But the projectile is the biggest thing for me and most people who want this to happen.

But furthermore, TP Ganondorf actually fits a bit more into Brawls Ganondorf move set than OOT Ganon. So bringing in OOT Ganondorf as another character probably makes more sense.

When Melee included Ganondorf, before we heard he was a clone, people were expecting an OOT move set representation of him. So if we WERE to get an OOT representation, he would not play at all like a big heavy hitter the way he is now. OOT Ganondorf in my mind would have a completely different feel. He would be lighter, and be more floaty (almost like Mewtwo). Also since he would be lighter, his recovery would also be much better.. he should be able to fly for example. Then, his movements in general should be kind of like Mewtwos where he floats around all the time (during walking and running animations). Most of his hand to hand attacks should be based on different types of magic rather than kicking and punching. And finally, some of his attacks could be sword attacks.

So what it comes down to for me (and I think for others on my side), is that we want an OOT Ganondorf. He may "borrow" things from other incarnations, but OOT would be the main focus. The projectile and sword issues are only a couple of the bigger issues we have, but I don't think those are the only things. And just to add a point about the sword, people got so hyped about that just because he had it in that spaceworld2000 video, and it showed up in Melee during his winning animation. Doing that was such a tease, and people wanted to see it actually be usable. That being said, having a sword would be cool, but in my opinion it isn't even the main concern.

I'd actually like to add that a sword stance would be best suited for TP Ganondorf, while OOT Ganondorf is just given a magic based move set.

 

[Solbliminal]

I twaied and I twaied and I twaied, but it was no use

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Spoiler

Yea
I was going for a bit more of a subtle reference.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

The way he is able to contort his body seems pretty acrobatic to me.

None of those weapons seem out of place for the Advance Wars universe.

All I'm saying is that giving Snake's movement capabilities to Sami would be unfitting.
It then follows that Snake's movement is somewhat tailor-made for his moveset, so I think the moveset would also be unfitting, regardless of how much they'd be out of place or not out of place aesthetically.

I am sure the team could come up with a playstyle that is much different from Snake despite using a lot of the same moves as Snake. It would actually be a very interesting challenge for the team to create a compelling clone, especially considering how the most popular choices are Isaac, Ridley, and Lyn, whom will probably be non-clones.

Fair enough, I can think of ways that she would be different than Snake, but I'm not sure an in-character, balanced moveset with the tools given would present a playstyle I'd want to see in the game. Make her faster, and then what? You have Snake except even more centered on grabs and C4. I already hear too many people say that Snake would be broken if he had a good approach, and I think it's important to tread carefully with a clone just as much as the original. The best I can think of is weakening moves (C4 in particular) severely to completely change up the set for a focus on combos. Such playstyles are surely possible, but it isn't something I'd advocate for seeing in the game, hence the change to neutral vote.

Give them more faith. They were able to balance a whole lot of the cast. At worst, they will simply have to nerf the offensive capabilities of the Nikita.

The Nikita was total garbage because it auto-edgeguarded a ridiculous portion of the cast. Take away as much power as you'd like, it will still have the exact same problem. If they decided the best thing to do was just stop trying on Snake it won't be any different for Sami.

Different strokes for different people. Personally, it was one of my favorite moves for Snake, and I know it was the same for a lot of other people I know who use Snake.

Fine. That's perfectly reasonable, but not a redeeming quality for her character in my regard.

Non-clones take over 700 hours (especially so for ones that don't have a base to work with like Mewtwo). Clones take only 300 hours.

Not sure I get why you quoted that particular part for this statement. The Masked Man is a clone character as well.

So will every possible character that will make it into Project M including your Masked Man.

That's actually the thing, the Masked Man needs less model work, because he does not need a new body, just the mask, sword, and wings. I'd be happy to elaborate on any precise difficulties you would see with creation, but I'm not trying to make this about the Masked Man. I get that he has difficulties associated, as does everyone else.

Personally, I think you are seeing a lot of problems that don't actually exist. I think in a scenario where Lyn, Dixie Kong, Isaac, Ridley, and Sami are the newcomers selected, Sami is actually probably going to be by far the easiest of those characters to implement. Really, there is probably few other characters out there that would be as easy to implement as Sami.

I get it if you want to discuss Sami, I'm more than open to that, but I don't get why you seem so concerned with how much I think she'd be worth it. I saw problems, pointed out why they balanced out the good things in my opinion, and left it at that. It wasn't even a criticism of the character. I also don't see how saying Sami is comparatively easy allows you to dismiss my concerns as non-existent. It's like you just said, every character will have real difficulties. If I differ from your reasoning in comparative worth, the concerns themselves are still considerable (especially given that they are, in fact, concerns, and not inarguable conclusions).

 

[arcticfox8]

Spoiler

*waits for articfox's reply*

Though I agree with you.

..you sure as hell know how to bait a guy.... but I'm not gonna argue. There's no reason to argue because I know it's true. But I will state why Slippy is the best choice for a new Starfox character. First, he's one of the original members of Fox's Team Starfox. Second, he's the mechanic of the team, noone else can do his job. Third, he's been the most loyal member of Team Starfox besides Fox himself. Finally, his mematic status makes him recognizable. Now lets discuss his opponents. Peppy, he's older, he's retired, he's not a member of Team Starfox anymore. Granted he's still important in the games and he has experience on his side, his cons outweigh the pros. However, he'd be a good second choice. Krystal, she came into the series at the beginning of its dark days. She hasn't been that important to the series overall. Besides, her fans would be upset if she became a Spacie. Any member of Team Starwolf is a bad idea. They aren't nearly as recognizable as the Starfox 64 Team Starfox members. I have nothing against Leon or Pigma or Panther, or Team Starwolf in general, but Wolf represents Starfox's rival team enough as it is.

 

[True Fool]

Since I gave Fire Emblem my main vote for having Lyn in, as well as a half-vote for Sigurd, I feel it's only fair that I give Slippy and Krystal a half-vote each. I feel like StarFox should have no more slots than Fire Emblem, but I'm okay with them having equal representation. Spacie movesets are clearly easy to make viable, and either character would be worthy of a "side character" spot. Obviously there are better choices than the two of them outside of StarFox, but that's why they get half-votes instead of full votes from me.

I'd also like to throw in half-votes for Skull Kid, Mach Rider, Sami and Black Shadow/Sword Ganondorf(if I didn't already) based on discussion in this thread. Way to go guys, you came up with good and compelling reasons for your suggestions and gained some half-votes for them!

 

[ChronoBound]

=
That's actually the thing, the Masked Man needs less model work, because he does not need a new body, just the mask, sword, and wings. I'd be happy to elaborate on any precise difficulties you would see with creation, but I'm not trying to make this about the Masked Man. I get that he has difficulties associated, as does everyone else.

You mention all that and say he would still not be a clone.

Also, your arguments failed to convince me. It seems like your opinions is more along your own interpretation for Sami in general.

However, Advance Wars in general is an incredibly important Nintendo franchise. I have written a massive essay detailing its importance. There is also the fact that series is likely going to be ignored in Smash 4 (very miniscule popularity in Japan).

 

[XStarWarriorX]

..you sure as hell know how to bait a guy....

Yes I know :D
...
But I wasn't the one who said this and more importantly i wanted to see your reaction on lordling's moveset for him but no... your as cool as a fox.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

EDIT: I changed my vote, and this list is now currently outdated (if my new vote is allowed, that is). My current vote can be found here. If my updated vote cannot be counted, please refer to this post instead for tallying purposes.

+1 Vote:
Saki
Bowser Jr.
Skapon
Lyn
Claus (if he hasn't been disqualified; if so, I will change my vote)

+1/2 Vote:
Shadow
Waluigi
Toon Zelda
Tetra
Krystal
Plusle/Minun
Samurai Goroh
Dixie
Dark Samus
Ganondorf/Black Shadow
Ridley
Isaac

-1 Vote:
None

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Third, he's been the most loyal member of Team Starfox besides Fox himself.

Um ...

Falco?

Unless you were excluding Falco because he's already in Smash.

While I agree with your points, one of the things that bugs me about Slippy being a potential candidate is the simple fact that you yourself stated: He's the team's MECHANIC. A hell of a good one to be sure, annoying voice aside - he made the Landmaster, Arwing and that one sub thing in the one SF64 level whose name I forget but was pretty damn awesome because infinite missiles. (Or maybe just a lot of them, it's been a while. I used to be able to complete it in 30 minutes but I haven't touched an N64 in years.) That was the most annoying thing about him, though: He and his voice belonged in the Great Fox, putting his technical genius at work instead of putting his green self in the line of fire. Fox, Falco and Peppy must have taken serious G-Force pressure to force blood away from their heads if they thought for one moment letting their ENGINEER onto the battlefield. Seriously?

That would be my non-biased, non-hatred tainted reason for not warming up to the idea of a Slippy that can fight. Because even if he can pilot an Arwing and does see his fair share of combat, he does not do it well. How many times have we had to bail Slippy out of tough spots? The game BEGINS with such a scenario and it's not a one-off. Falco at least repays the favor, a lot, and pulls his own weight. and more.

And then there's the whole annoying factor that makes me want to burn Slippy, but that's not quite as relevant as I'm not trying to start some flame war.

Edit: Wait, negative votes are a thing?!

GIVE SLIPPY ALL THE MINUSES I AM ABLE TO GIVE

[Which is probably just -1, huh]

 

[Solbliminal]

Yea
I was going for a bit more of a subtle reference.

I wasn't.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Um ...

Falco?

Unless you were excluding Falco because he's already in Smash.

It was implied in Stairfax Tempertures that Falco left the Star Fox team. He joins back at the end though

Jus' sayin'

 

[arcticfox8]

@Lordling true, but Falco is sort of rebellious at times. Slippy has always followed orders like a true soldier, and thats why he puts himself in the line of fire, because that's a soldier's duty. March on brave Slippy, march on.

 

[True Fool]

By the way, for the people talking about Plusle and Minun(I know most of the discussion has turned away), I think it should be noted that they had one character slot(?) among the forbidden 7, while Popo and Nana had two. So I don't think they could work on a single slot. And I certainly don't think they'd be worth taking up two slots. Down-vote for Plusle and Minun.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yes, but Falco does what he wants and doesn't afraid of anything! #renegade

Random thoughts Lordling has:-
"Personally, I prefer the dair." ~ Falco

 

[PsionicSabreur]

You mention all that and say he would still not be a clone.

Also, your arguments failed to convince me. It seems like your opinions is more along your own interpretation for Sami in general.

However, Advance Wars in general is an incredibly important Nintendo franchise. I have written a massive essay detailing its importance. There is also the fact that series is likely going to be ignored in Smash 4 (very miniscule popularity in Japan).

I said Masked Man would be a clone. I've said it plenty of times before, too.

I wasn't trying to convince you about anything. You asked why I didn't like the idea of Snake's moveset for Sami (or rather, said you couldn't understand my reasoning), and I attempted to elaborate, which would inherently be centered on my own interpretation for Sami in general. So, I didn't convince you to agree with me with an explanation that wasn't meant to convince. That does not mean a thing in this context.

If you thought I was just trying to convince you to abandon Sami, it might be best not to continue this conversation, because you and I seem to have very different interpretations of my intent.

 

[Shin F.]

But that's the thing, those don't make any sense where Ganondorf's Smash moveset does. It's powerful, it's brutish, it's aggressive. All things that Ganondorf personifies. Hell, I'd argue that Smash does a better job of representing him (according to the plot of Zelda) than the gameplay of the actual Zelda games. True, on paper it sounds like Ganondorf wouldn't make sense as a Captain Falcon clone, but I'll be damned if it doesn't make work perfectly.

And real quick on the topic of fans just changing him back. I have one word: Tourneys.

Because his costume makes a big difference there.

This is kind of long, so I'm going to spoiler it in case you don't care for the Ganondorf argument.

Spoiler

I disagree. How on earth can Smash represent him more accurately than... him? Ganondorf is defined by his Zelda appearances, not the other way around. How does that logic even work?

Even looking at a storyline perspective, though, Ganondorf isn't the type to rush into battle like a brute. Look at how he took over Hyrule in OoT. Did he rush in, magic (or fists) blazing, and take the Sacred Realm by force? No. He cunningly got close to the king, poisoned the Deku Tree, made a few threats, then sat back as Link did all the work and snuck in behind him.

Let's look at Wind Waker. Again - when Ganon's power was free, after TLink pulled the Master Sword - did he instantly unleash his power on Link and destroy him? No... again, he let Link run around collecting the Triforce pieces and stealthily kidnapped Zelda, forcing a gathering of the Triforce so he could obtain it.

Or look at Twilight Princess. When Ganondorf was banished into the Twilight Realm, what did he do? He made Zant into his scapegoat and let him attack everyone. He let Zant keep the heroes' focus on him, while Ganondorf was free to work in the background.

Now, look at how he fights in OoT: He throws magical spheres and punches the ground, keeping his distance from Link. He doesn't attack him physically. Even his beast form in that game uses swords rather than its fists or claws.

In Wind Waker, he's speedy and uses twin swords. I think he may have backhanded Zelda, so throw that in too if you want. It'll be hilarious.

In Twilight Princess, he's the most varied, I think - in the Puppet/Possessed Zelda phase, he mostly fires magic at you and occasionally charges with his sword. Again, when not charging with the sword, he keeps his distance. In the next, it's his beast form, which is well-represented in his Final Smash. Then he fights again with a sword.

People have this image of Ganondorf as brutish and aggressive because he has the Triforce of Power, but all that means is that he personally values Power over Wisdom or Courage. When you look at the storyline, he's more methodical and cunning.

This is right on point. Through-out every Zelda game he appears in, Ganondorf is made out to be this all powerful, maniacal beast of a man. Yet, when you actually fight him, he's just a slow tub of lard that telegraphs almost everything he does, which makes for a boss a 5 year old could beat. Granted, it is a kid's game, but the ease of the battle is still kind of a let down, considering all of the build up. I don't see why people want a canonical moveset, when the canon itself isn't that great to begin with.

We already have a moveset that works...why change it for the sake of childhood nostalgia, and NOTHING else?

Spoiler

We already have a character that works...why change him for the sake of gameplay, and NOTHING else?

See? It works the other way, too.

Childhood nostalgia? No. I don't care about that. If I did, I'd be running around watching Little Nemo and Power Rangers. If I start doing that, feel free to punch me where the sun doesn't shine.

Accuracy to the character? Yes! Every other character moveset has at least some basis in their canonical abilities, aside from those who didn't have attacks at all when they became Smash characters. Those, I'm fine with because the lack of material makes it necessary, and I'm also fine with moves being borrowed from their allies like Ness and Zelda. What I don't like is when characters with perfectly valid forms of attack have moves that neither they nor their allies ever used, like Ganondorf.

If anything, it's peoples' Smash nostalgia (or the fact that they main him, which I actually see as valid) that causes them to want to keep Ganondorf's moveset as it is, rather than correcting it to be the way it should have been in the first place.

tl:dr, Same argument, more fleshed out.

Anyways... I think the conversation here has run dry. There's really no need to rehash it more, so I won't bring it up again... Like with Pichu, I think both sides have been presented well enough, and now it's just a matter of preference.

Oh, since Vaati's no longer eligible, I'd like to change my +1 vote for him to Tetra. I really like the idea of her WW based moveset.

 

[ChronoBound]

I said Masked Man would be a clone. I've said it plenty of times before, too.
.

Considering how many people whined about there being three spacies, I don't think it would be a good idea to have three psychic little boys, especially considering how Ness/Lucas are far less popular characters than the likes of Falco/Fox both inside and outside the Smash Bros. fanbase.

Personally, I would like to see other characters explore for another clone concept, instead of having a third arche-type for the same character.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

We already have a character that works...why change him for the sake of gameplay, and NOTHING else?

See? It works the other way, too.

No........not really.
The way you worded it is kind of contradictory to what you were getting at, but I'll let it slide.

 

[trojanpooh]

No........not really.
The way you worded it is kind of contradictory to what you were getting at, but I'll let it slide.

Your profile icon just drives home your reaction to his comment.

 

[arcticfox8]

I actually enjoyed the Slippy talk we had right there. It was a lot better than I thought it would be if anybody ever actually talked about. Hell of a lot better than the discussion about Pich-*shot*

 

[ChronoBound]

To be fair to Slippy, he actually was in a good Star Fox game, and he at least performed a useful function on the team (giving away enemy health bars).

Contrast that with Krystal, whose primary purpose seems to be (furry) fanservice and creating unnecessary drama (especially evident in Command), not to mention all the post-64 games have even been mediocre or sub-par.

However, that being said, Star Fox already has all the characters it needs already playable.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Your profile icon just drives home your reaction to his comment.

All hail Giga-Boozer and his endless confusion

 

[trojanpooh]

However, that being said, Star Fox already has all the characters it needs already playable.

The same could be said about Advance Wars