New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[GeZ]

That would pretty much be the best of both worlds . Black Shadow and Ganondorf are similar in physique so it would be easier to adjust to the character if Blackendorf is included. Unfortunately, it's impossible to make everyone acknowledge the idea...status quo, anti-change, and all that

I'll be boo'd out of the room if I talk about it but rest assured that I understand the point, I just think that you'd find less dedicated, tourney attending Ganon mains to be on board with this. I have a friend who plays this game casually and only plays Ganondorf and when he heard about the Black Shadow/ Ganon thing he said if that happened he'd drop the game.

 

[TheKk-47]

Can't we just use stance changes on Ganondorf? I haven't seen an actual Ganon main say they want him to change, with stance changes Ganon mains don't have to use it. This is the best option imo. Ganon mains aren't forced to switch to a new char, Ganon gets an original moveset and needed buffs, and if Black Shadow gets in he can get his own moveset rather then just rip Ganon's. If you want an example look at Triforce Ganon, it can use some balancing work but it's great.

 

[PlateProp]

Dude, just because he chose to make them similar does not mean that's wrong. It's more the fact that most of his fanart choose to make them different. Ninten's art never has him officially wearing that bandana or having different clothes. That whole rendering is a fan creation.

and

Those are the official pictures. The only major difference is the hat direction (left vs right...) and the backpack.

And Shin's render is proof enough that it are not different enough. Like I said before, just look at IGN the other day. One of their headline Smash Bros images used Shin's Ninten render right in the middle -- because they thought he was Ness. Just because they're ignorant about it is besides the point. They represent the average Nintendo gamer still.

Dude, just because he chose to make them similar does not mean that's wrong. It's more the fact that most of his fanart choose to make them different. Ninten's art never has him officially wearing that bandana or having different clothes. That whole rendering is a fan creation.

and

Those are the official pictures. The only major difference is the hat direction (left vs right...) and the backpack.

And Shin's render is proof enough that it are not different enough. Like I said before, just look at IGN the other day. One of their headline Smash Bros images used Shin's Ninten render right in the middle -- because they thought he was Ness. Just because they're ignorant about it is besides the point. They represent the average Nintendo gamer still.

Links please

Also i'm pretty sure IGN is one of those networks that hates Nintendo because it's "cool" to hate them

 

[Sour Supreme]

Dude, just because he chose to make them similar does not mean that's wrong. It's more the fact that most of his fanart choose to make them different. Ninten's art never has him officially wearing that bandana or having different clothes. That whole rendering is a fan creation.

and

Those are the official pictures. The only major difference is the hat direction (left vs right...) and the backpack.

And Shin's render is proof enough that it are not different enough. Like I said before, just look at IGN the other day. One of their headline Smash Bros images used Shin's Ninten render right in the middle -- because they thought he was Ness. Just because they're ignorant about it is besides the point. They represent the average Nintendo gamer still.

But you're forgetting that Ninten has American artwork that is official and was made to allow people to easier distinguish him from Ness. If Ninten became a playable character the PMBR wouldn't make him based off of his appearance that is closer to Ness. That's ridiculous.

 

[GeZ]

Can't we just use stance changes on Ganondorf? I haven't seen an actual Ganon main say they want him to change, with stance changes Ganon mains don't have to use it. This is the best option imo. Ganon mains aren't forced to switch to a new char, Ganon gets an original moveset and needed buffs, and if Black Shadow gets in he can get his own moveset rather then just rip Ganon's. If you want an example look at Triforce Ganon, it can use some balancing work but it's great.

Triforce Ganondorf is actually silly as hell. That's pretty unanimous for Ganon mains, from what I've seen.

 

[PlateProp]

Dude, just because he chose to make them similar does not mean that's wrong. It's more the fact that most of his fanart choose to make them different. Ninten's art never has him officially wearing that bandana or having different clothes. That whole rendering is a fan creation.

and

Those are the official pictures. The only major difference is the hat direction (left vs right...) and the backpack.

And Shin's render is proof enough that it are not different enough. Like I said before, just look at IGN the other day. One of their headline Smash Bros images used Shin's Ninten render right in the middle -- because they thought he was Ness. Just because they're ignorant about it is besides the point. They represent the average Nintendo gamer still.

Actually, Bandana and the redblue white shirt come from the Mother Commercial

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HTX8cjhY0wM

So yeah, Bandana + Shirt is official

 

[TheKk-47]

Links please

Also i'm pretty sure IGN is one of those networks that hates Nintendo because it's "cool" to hate them

Trust me, IGN doesn't hate Nintendo. They've made articles for PM twice (how I found out) and I can't name a single Ninty game that got less than an 8/10.

 

[Anti Guy]

Links please

Also i'm pretty sure IGN is one of those networks that hates Nintendo because it's "cool" to hate them

Can't link anymore. The headline has been out of rotation for the last couple days (I think since the Captain Toad one came in)

Actually, Bandana and the redblue white shirt come from the Mother Commercial

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HTX8cjhY0wM

So yeah, Bandana + Shirt is official

...a live-action commercial is official? Alright then, by that logic, Ninten should be a brown-haired white kid.

 

[TheKk-47]

Triforce Ganondorf is actually silly as hell. That's pretty unanimous for Ganon mains, from what I've seen.

Yeah, but it gives an example on how Ganon can be unique and more true to himself without sacrificing his original moveset that Ganon mains use.

 

[PlateProp]

Can't link anymore. The headline has been out of rotation for the last couple days (I think since the Captain Toad one came in)



...a live-action commercial is official? Alright then, by that logic, Ninten should be a brown-haired white kid.

Well he was already white, and brown hair would differentiate him more from Ness which is what you want :D.

Also poo, I really wanted to see the IGN screw up

 

[GeZ]

Yeah, but it gives an example on how Ganon can be unique and more true to himself without sacrificing his original moveset that Ganon mains use.

This is its own long conversation, but suffice to say when Samus got the stance change, I had a long LONG conversation with a longtime Samus main who stopped maining Samus in P:M because of the effect of stance changes on a characters core wants. Like, it's just not as simple as a lot of people think, but we should stop, cause this has been talked out in every direction really. It's just an agree to disagree thing.

 

[Shin F.]

Well he was already white, and brown hair would differentiate him more from Ness which is what you want :D.

Also poo, I really wanted to see the IGN screw up

I'd like to see it, too. I had no idea IGN was using one of my renders, lol. It would be fun to see.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

I'll be boo'd out of the room if I talk about it but rest assured that I understand the point, I just think that you'd find less dedicated, tourney attending Ganon mains to be on board with this. I have a friend who plays this game casually and only plays Ganondorf and when he heard about the Black Shadow/ Ganon thing he said if that happened he'd drop the game.

I don't think you should be ostracized for giving your opinion. It depends on your delivery of your post, so feel free to disagree or agree with something .

I can't speak for the tourney Ganondorf mains but there is already a minimal amount of them since as you said before. Ganondorf is a bad character (tier-wise). Not to say they should be excluded but some might be okay for the change so it's a bit of a moot point.

I'm curious as to why your friend is so adamant in dropping the game over a "costume change". Is it because he is so resistant to change he can't cope with it or he truly feels that Ganondorf should be this way because he can't imagine him any other way (hasn't played a Legend of Zelda game)?

 

[PlateProp]

I'd like to see it, too. I had no idea IGN was using one of my renders, lol. It would be fun to see.

I'm actually kind of curious now, would you mind whipping up a brown haired Ninten render?

 

[Malion]

Actually, Bandana and the redblue white shirt come from the Mother Commercial

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HTX8cjhY0wM

So yeah, Bandana + Shirt is official

Him having high waisted shorts and a belt is also official, we need that man! lol

psst, promise me a youngster joey alt colour and that sweet 1/2 is all yours ninten brah

 

[Shin F.]

I'm actually kind of curious now, would you mind whipping up a brown haired Ninten render?

Sure.

Spoiler

 

[arcticfox8]

Ganondorf's moveset is very much canonical
All of his attacks that have dark magic effects represent his magic side
His stomp and Foot are like the ground pound, but not exact because nothing translates exactly.
His Flame Choke comes from I know at least Wind Waker
His upB works because he flies and uses magic
His nB comes from his immense physical strength that comes from lifting the Triforce of Power
His overall playstyle represents that.
If anyone of those clones have a non-canon moveset, it's Falcon, who does nothing but drive a car. I understand you can't do much with that, but it's not fair to claim it's not canon on Ganon but just ignore that it's the same for Falcon.

 

[PlateProp]

Ganondorf's moveset is very much canonical
All of his attacks that have dark magic effects represent his magic side
His stomp and Foot are like the ground pound, but not exact because nothing translates exactly.
His Flame Choke comes from I know at least Wind Waker
His upB works because he flies and uses magic
His nB comes from his immense physical strength that comes from lifting the Triforce of Power
His overall playstyle represents that.
If anyone of those clones have a non-canon moveset, it's Falcon, who does nothing but drive a car. I understand you can't do much with that, but it's not fair to claim it's not canon on Ganon but just ignore that it's the same for Falcon.

Falcon has been mentioned to be aBounty Hunter though, so it makes sense that he would fight.

Though thw fire effects are questionable.

Sure.

Spoiler

View attachment 20313

I like it.

 

[arcticfox8]

Falcon has been mentioned to be aBounty Hunter though, so it makes sense that he would fight.

That's not really an argument since everyone is fighting in Smash

 

[PlateProp]

That's not really an argument since everyone is fighting in Smash

I meant in his own series.

Dont Falcon and Ganon only share simular B moves anyways?

 

[ZeruSlayer]

Ganondorf's moveset is very much canonical
All of his attacks that have dark magic effects represent his magic side
His stomp and Foot are like the ground pound, but not exact because nothing translates exactly.
His Flame Choke comes from I know at least Wind Waker
His upB works because he flies and uses magic
His nB comes from his immense physical strength that comes from lifting the Triforce of Power
His overall playstyle represents that.
If anyone of those clones have a non-canon moveset, it's Falcon, who does nothing but drive a car. I understand you can't do much with that, but it's not fair to claim it's not canon on Ganon but just ignore that it's the same for Falcon.

But the thing is Ganondorf from Melee was essentially a clone of Captain Falcon. Some of your examples are grasping at straws. I haven't finished Ocarina of Time so I can't exactly counter any of your examples but I can assume that in Legend of Zelda Ganon's Triforce of Power wasn't used in such a fashion as Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch. The Up B doesn't depict anything flying or magic related unless it's the sound effect while using it (which isn't delivered properly because it looks like an extra jump, imo).

This brings me to Captain Falcon, I watched the F-Zero anime when I was younger which I believe is what most of the inspiration of Melee Captain Falcon came from because it showed Captain Falcon's signature move, Falcon Punch, as well as his Forward B, Raptor Boost. Everything else was made through Sakurai's creativity which revolved around the two moves I stated as well as the character's lore. Captain Falcon was one of the fastest racers in the F-Zero franchise so he became a speedy character and all his moves even though some weren't shown in his franchise of origin (ex. lightning knee (F-air)) makes sense to the character without going past the boundaries of his franchise whether it be the anime or the game.

 

[arcticfox8]

I meant in his own series.

Dont Falcon and Ganon only share simular B moves anyways?

Their sideBs and upBs have significant differences but are still similar
For the most part their a moves are the same, but for example their jabs, ftilts, fairs, and dtilts have different animations.
But as with all clones even the similar animations work very differently

 

[arcticfox8]

But the thing is Ganondorf from Melee was essentially a clone of Captain Falcon. Some of your examples are grasping at straws. I haven't finished Ocarina of Time so I can't exactly counter any of your examples but I can assume that in Legend of Zelda Ganon's Triforce of Power wasn't used in such a fashion as Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch. The Up B doesn't depict anything flying or magic related unless it's the sound effect while using it (which isn't delivered properly because it looks like an extra jump, imo).

In regards to the Pawnch: I'm saying when you combine his already immense physical strength with his dark magic, it makes sense.
Most characters in Smash use things they wouldn't normally use in Smash. Most characters don't use every possible thing they can do in Smash. Ganon is no exception or extreme.

This brings me to Captain Falcon, I watched the F-Zero anime when I was younger which I believe is what most of the inspiration of Melee Captain Falcon came from because it showed Captain Falcon's signature move, Falcon Punch, as well as his Forward B, Raptor Boost. Everything else was made through Sakurai's creativity which revolved around the two moves I stated as well as the character's lore. Captain Falcon was one of the fastest racers in the F-Zero franchise so he became a speedy character and all his moves even though some weren't shown in his franchise of origin (ex. lightning knee (F-air)) makes sense to the character without going past the boundaries of his franchise whether it be the anime or the game.

Falcon Punch comes from Smash 64
I believe the anime came after Melee anyways, the Falcon there was based on Falcon in Smash

 

[Malion]

I made a quick sketch of what Ninten could potentially look like based entirely on the guy from the commercial... I don't think it looks too bad.

Spoiler

 

[ZeruSlayer]

In regards to the Pawnch: I'm saying when you combine his already immense physical strength with his dark magic, it makes sense.
Most characters in Smash use things they wouldn't normally use in Smash. Most characters don't use every possible thing they can do in Smash. Ganon is no exception or extreme.

Agreed, that makes sense so I acknowledge the neutral B as representing Ganondorf's Triforce of Power. But the way it was designed was to blatantly rip-off Falcon Punch, but clones will be clones .

Falcon Punch comes from Smash 64
I believe the anime came after Melee anyways, the Falcon there was based on Falcon in Smash

Well...damn, that shoots my argument down . But if that's the case then Captain Falcon cannot be compared with Ganondorf in your previous post because Captain Falcon did not have an established movepool in the F-Zero racing series so they took his lore of being a fast racer and a bounty hunter and established a canonical moveset for him which is confirmed with the anime that came after. So Falcon's fighting debut was Smash so it can't be argued if his moveset is or not canon.

With Ganondorf, he originated from a game that has fighting in it so his moves should not be similar to Captain Falcon's unless you're claiming that Ganondorf and Captain Falcon were taught by the same teacher or that Captain Falcon was a clone of Ganondorf all along...but he came before...yeah, at this point I have no idea what the heck Sakurai was thinking.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Yeah, I'm just explaining my vote now.



That doesn't make sense. You're saying they look different enough to be a different character (for anyone that does, I think you need to take a step back and look at it from a non-Mother fan's perspective), but it's okay because Link's costume is similar? If anything, Ninten could be a costume for Ness, but he'd hardly look like anything more than a palette swap.

You misinterpreted my post. I was trying to make two points.
1. It shows that the PMBR isn't going to not add something just because it looks similar to something else.
2. Despite the fact that both costumes look similar it hasn't presented a problem. The minor defining features are enough. So why would two similar looking characters be any different?

 

[shinhed-echi]

Hey, long time!

I wanted to ask a question before I backed off about the whole Ganon/Black Shadow situation permanently.

IF SSB4 beat PM to the punch in making this (I mean, making a new Ganondorf and including Black Shadow as the Captain FalClone), would that mean PM:BR would be forbidden to use it here?


btw, dat Ninten render =

 

[Shin F.]

Hey, long time!

I wanted to ask a question before I backed off about the whole Ganon/Black Shadow situation permanently.

IF SSB4 beat PM to the punch in making this (I mean, making a new Ganondorf and including Black Shadow as the Captain FalClone), would that mean PM:BR would be forbidden to use it here?

Yes, it would indeed, lol.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Yes, it would indeed, lol.

Alright, thanks!

Oddly enough, I'm more welcome to the idea of that happening over there.
Great Ninten render. Makes me wish Ninten was playable.
-

Anyway, same rules apply as always?

Updating:

FULL
Ninten
Takamaru
Samurai Goroh
Isaac
Saki

HALF
Sukapon
Lip
Andy
Pichu
Toad
Mach Rider
Ridley
Dark Samus
Krystal
Slippy

MINUS:
Black Shadow / Ganondorf: (I really hope I don't have to bring it up again, I think the first two pages of this thread covered my POV on this, lol)

 

[Solbliminal]

If I could weigh in on this Ninten discussion...The best way to go about that is to take every possible, and even small design differences and mesh them together. One I keep noticing is that Ninten is actually somewhat taller than both Ness and Lucas, and slimmer. His face is also slightly longer, like how Luigi is to Mario. Another detail I notice that Ness's official hat has changed in Smash. It looks like Ness ended up with a hat similar to that of Ninten's. So alternatively, he should receive the difference that is no longer present in Ness' design.

<-Ness with his old hat.

And all of this is a fair argument since Smash has been known to update / modify designs of Retro characters. So Anti Guy. If these changes aren't enough to make him different, then Luigi should be removed for being to similar to Mario. Just saying.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Alright, thanks!

Oddly enough, I'm more welcome to the idea of that happening over there.

Yeah, I've resolved that if it ever happens, it can't be in Project M anymore. It has to be in a new game. Like, what if Smash 4 came out and Falco was there on launch, still a Fox clone, but a year-later patch completely changed his moveset? You're disrupting the mains of a character in the middle of a game's lifespan rather than fundamentally changing it on launch, which would be much more understandable. It's too disruptive.

So if Ganondorf was ever unique, it has to be like that from the beginning of a game's lifespan, and we've gone WAY past Project M's beginning of its lifespan. Smash 4 is more ideal.

tl,dr: I agree, I am also more welcome to it happening in Smash 4.

 

[Sour Supreme]

If I could weigh in on this Ninten discussion...The best way to go about that is to take every possible, and even small design differences and mesh them together. One I keep noticing is that Ninten is actually somewhat taller than both Ness and Lucas, and slimmer. His face is also slightly longer, like how Luigi is to Mario. Another detail I notice that Ness's official hat has changed in Smash. It looks like Ness ended up with a hat similar to that of Ninten's. So alternatively, he should receive the difference that is no longer present in Ness' design.

<-Ness with his old hat.

And all of this is a fair argument since Smash has been known to update / modify designs of Retro characters. So Anti Guy. If these changes aren't enough to make him different, then Luigi should be removed for being to similar to Mario. Just saying.

So much this. Praise Sol. <3

 

[Saito]

I've tried to change many people who thought Pichu was too similar to Pikachu and the differences in appearance between those are even greater than the differences between Ness and Ninten.

I wish you good luck in this endeavor.

 

[Sour Supreme]

I made a quick sketch of what Ninten could potentially look like based entirely on the guy from the commercial... I don't think it looks too bad.

Spoiler

Impossible... He...

He Shinja'd Design Influence.

 

[Malion]

Impossible... He...

He Shinja'd Design Influence.
View attachment 20331

Eh not that similar don't worry.
When I get time I'll try to Photoshop shin's render to give him a belt and a boy scout bandana.

 

[Solbliminal]

Impossible... He...

He Shinja'd Design Influence.
View attachment 20331

I'll do you one better.

All the way down to the stripes all the way across instead of wrapped around the sleeves, to the nerdy pocket protector that likely no one noticed.

EDIT: I made some more significant changes to the hair. And if you look close enough in the medallion, you can see the Mother logo. Also removed the brows.

 

[Shin F.]

I'll do you one better.

All the way down to the stripes all the way across instead of wrapped around the sleeves, to the nerdy pocket protector that likely no one noticed.

I want to modify my Ninten model to match this now. It's perfect.

 

[Solbliminal]

I want to modify my Ninten model to match this now. It's perfect.

I actually made more significant changes just now.

 

[Malion]

I'll do you one better.

All the way down to the stripes all the way across instead of wrapped around the sleeves, to the nerdy pocket protector that likely no one noticed.

EDIT: I made some more significant changes to the hair. And if you look close enough in the medallion, you can see the Mother logo. Also removed the brows.

I like it. I also drew the medallion as a mother logo, but I wasn't sure if that's what it was going for or not.

I feel he should have his shirt full on tucked in with his shorts hoisted up though. It really sells the nerdiness. lol. Not that he needs to be nerdy but making him a total dork is always appealing. Like giving him some pens or putting a starman action figure in his pocket. lol

 

[Solbliminal]

I like it. I also drew the medallion as a mother logo, but I wasn't sure if that's what it was going for or not.

I feel he should have his shirt full on tucked in with his shorts hoisted up though. It really sells the nerdiness. lol. Not that he needs to be nerdy but making him a total dork is always appealing. Like giving him some pens or putting a starman action figure in his pocket. lol

Well Ninten in even his original art had his shirt partly tucked. The lazy bedhead hair and partly tucked shirt actually sells twice as much to the people who are familiar with the lore of the character. It makes him standout quite a bit.