New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Saito]

My only thing I have against Pichu is the fact that we already have an extreme amount of Pokemon representation in Project M.

But, I am genuinely interested to see what the PMBR would do with Pichu if they did pursue that.

 

[Fortress]

Well, the thing is, he'd have to keep his old self-damaging mechanics. There's no way he could be balanced such that he doesn't hurt himself and still performs differently than Pikachu. I mean, what could they do to make the characters that much different? I guess you could have a faster and stronger Pikachu who also gets killed faster without damaging itself, but, it'd just sound like a better Pikachu at that point.

 

[ChronoBound]

I think the huge difference between Doc and Pichu was the fact that Doc was up there in a lot of Melee tier lists; better than Mario in many regards, on the whole. Pichu, on the other hand, was just at the bottom. Just bad.

I think that is the main reason why Dr. Mario was more popular than Young Link and Pichu despite being an alterego clone. There is also the fact that for many people, they found Doc aesthetically "cooler" than regular Mario, and spamming pills to be "funnier". Aside from the return of Mewtwo and Roy, how they handled bringing back Doc is one of the biggest high points for Project M (tweaking Mario to be more like Doc, while having the Doc costume being able to throw pills with even the same sound effect). It was really a good solution all around, and this is coming from someone that actually likes Dr. Mario.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

20% damage nairs.........cannonballs ALL DAY

 

[Rhinevalcke6]

Some people would argue that representation shouldn't matter if the character can bring something really good to the table, which I'm kind of in between about, to be honest.

But, Pichu is still Pichu. So, still bad.

I would agree with this also (I support Wolf Link w/Amaterasu moveset after all, and LoZ already has 5 characters), but when a character is both a Joke and a Clone, it's not worth it in my opinion

 

[trojanpooh]

You also get angry when its brought how unpopular Pichu is relative to the rest of the Smash Bros. cast. Dr. Mario was in a similar boat (an extremely divisive veteran), but unlike Pichu, there was a tight rope that was successfully crossed that was able to satisfy all parties in regards to him.

I get angry at that? Thanks for the update, because last I checked I didn't really care.

The costume option probably won't work for Pichu since even if they manage to get the hitboxes for him to be the same as Pikachu, and change Pikachu to have Pichu's few advantages (more speed, more power for some moves), the whole point to the character in Smash Bros. was to be purposely terrible and basically utilizing its very small size and high speed to avoid getting hit and grabbing items.

And the purpose of Smash Bros was to be played as a party game. The intent of the creator never was and never will be a good argument.

With Pichu, there is an even narrower rope to walk, and even if you fix Pichu from being a purposely bad character, you might also end up alienating those who like Pichu being terrible and him being a character to troll your friends with due to his purposeful terribleness. Even Mewtwo and Roy, kept a lot of their Melee selves in their Project M movesets (Mewtwo keeps most of his moves, while Roy still keeps his middle-sword sweetspot gimmick), with Pichu, suggesting to take away the gimmick of him being purposely bad may take away from Pichu being Pichu.

Nothing in this paragraph is even worth responding to it's so misguided and wrong.

I am personally neutral on Pichu, but in general with the character there is a lot of potholes. You might also risk Dr. Mario and Young Link fans becoming agitated their characters did not get slots of their own, while less popular Pichu did.

[/quote]
Frankly I did support the return of Dr. Mario and Young Link before it became clear they didn't stand a chance. Not because I wanted them, but because I know that there must be other people out who do. Dr. Mario and Young Link fans will be bummed regardless of who else gets in be it Pichu or Isaac or Shadow or Ridley or Bill Cosby, that's how being a fan works. There is only space for 5 more characters, that leaves a 0% chance of not agitating anyone.

 

[Fortress]

A bad clone. You forgot to mention bad clone. TLink is, in a way, a clone. Luigi is a clone. Captain Falcon (Ganondorf wuz here) is a clone.

But they're solid.

that's how being a fan works.

Being a fan is toxic. It's not conducive of very objective thinking, I think. I don't see any reason that anybody has mentioned for Pichu should be in other than nostalgia. I mean, even Melee didn't want Pichu.

 

[ChronoBound]

I get angry at that? Thanks for the update, because last I checked I didn't really care.

And the purpose of Smash Bros was to be played as a party game. The intent of the creator never was and never will be a good argument.

.

You have berated me in the past for bringing up his lack of popularity, so its good you have had a change of heart.

Secondly, how Pichu actually was in Melee is a good argument to use considering that large facets of who Mewtwo and Roy actually were in Melee were retained for Project M. For Pichu, its tough because unlike Mewtwo and Roy who were made bad by poor design choices, Pichu was supposed to be terrible.

 

[Saito]

Well, the thing is, he'd have to keep his old self-damaging mechanics. There's no way he could be balanced such that he doesn't hurt himself and still performs differently than Pikachu. I mean, what could they do to make the characters that much different? I guess you could have a faster and stronger Pikachu who also gets killed faster without damaging itself, but, it'd just sound like a better Pikachu at that point.

It's not like they couldn't change him (her if it is spiky eared Pichu)

Let me grab a quote on clones from the project m site

Think of Luigi – he shares many similar moves and animations with Mario, his base, but over time has been given more unique traits. Furthermore, his unique physics instantly shift his entire play style. Creating new play experiences in a polished manner as efficiently as possible is really the name of the game.

While he may be a Veteran, that doesn't limit them from being able to change Pichu entirely while keeping the gimmick of self damage. They definitely aren't limited to what Pichu has as they made Roy new animations and new tricks while keeping his core intact. I don't know much of mewtwo, but I'm sure that the Hover they gave him will completely change what he can and will do.


Once again, I'm very interested to see what they would do with Pichu if they did pursue that.

 

[Malion]

Coming from someone who mains Servbot on MvC2 I respect a good joke character... a character of ridiculous qualities that people expect nothing from... they can be good for catching people unaware... or maybe just for a laugh. Or a good troll pick if you're picking each other's characters.

I feel like Pichu is a pretty good lame pokemon but I feel he could be better... Rattata anyone?

I'll give you guys a while to think about it... he can be a Pikachu clone but without the electricity. Maybe have a Pokemon trainer in the background dressed as Joey when he's out?

I think we can all agree that Route 1 pokemon are underrepresented.

Give me your PM number and I can talk to you personally about my great top tier rattata.

 

[Fortress]

Give me your PM number and I can talk to you personally about my great top tier rattata.

Fear Rattata? No thanks.

 

[trojanpooh]

Being a fan is toxic. It's not conducive of very objective thinking, I think. I don't see any reason that anybody has mentioned for Pichu should be in other than nostalgia. I mean, even Melee didn't want Pichu.

Pichu actually has a base in the Smash Bros universe. I'd argue that the points made for Pichu are far more objective than any request for any new character because they are 100% baseless while Pichu supporters have something tangible to point towards.

You have berated me in the past for bringing up his lack of popularity, so its good you have had a change of heart.

If that's how you interpreted my posts I can hardly be blamed for that. Seems to me like you're seeing aggression where there is none.

Secondly, how Pichu actually was in Melee is a good argument to use considering that large facets of who Mewtwo and Roy actually were in Melee were retained for Project M. For Pichu, its tough because unlike Mewtwo and Roy who were made bad by poor design choices, Pichu was supposed to be terrible.

How Pichu actually was in Melee is a good argument. How Pichu was "supposed to be" is not.

 

[Fortress]

Pichu actually has a base in the Smash Bros universe. I'd argue that the points made for Pichu are far more objective than any request for any new character because they are 100% baseless while Pichu supporters have something tangible to point towards.

Where was this fanbase? Was there a box in that office I posted a picture of with Pichu's four fans hiding inside?

And how are arguments against Pichu 'baseless'? Pichu. Was ****ing. Awful. How are you not seeing that.

 

[ChronoBound]

If that's how you interpreted my posts I can hardly be blamed for that. Seems to me like you're seeing aggression where there is none.

I don't appreciate lying.

 

[trojanpooh]

Where was this fanbase? Was there a box in that office I posted a picture of with Pichu's four fans hiding inside?

And how are arguments against Pichu 'baseless'? Pichu. Was ****ing. Awful. How are you not seeing that.

Not arguments against Pichu. Arguments for any character who wasn't in Melee. Last I checked Mewtwo and Roy were also awful and character preference is opinion based. How are you not seeing that?

I don't appreciate lying.

Non sequitur much?

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I don't appreciate lying.

Crowd Track: "Ooooooooooooooooooooooo"

 

[Fortress]

Not arguments against Pichu. Arguments for any character who wasn't in Melee. Last I checked Mewtwo and Roy were also awful and character preference is opinion based. How are you not seeing that?

Mewtwo and Roy were only bad because of design oversight. Roy was just a sloppy clone of Marth, where Mewtwo was... whatever in the Hell he was. Pichu was meant to be bad from the get-go; design intended, straight off of the drawing board. Mewtwo and Roy were able to be salvaged because they weren't made to be bad.

Point Fortress.

 

[Malion]

I don't appreciate lying.

Well I do...


... no I don't sorry.

 

[trojanpooh]

Mewtwo and Roy were only bad because of design oversight. Roy was just a sloppy clone of Marth, where Mewtwo was... whatever in the Hell he was. Pichu was meant to be bad from the get-go; design intended, straight off of the drawing board. Mewtwo and Roy were able to be salvaged because they weren't made to be bad.

Point Fortress.

Brawl was meant to be casual. Melee was meant to be casual. Ken was meant to play 100% like Ryu. Firebrand was meant to be a generic enemy. The list goes on. I don't see what your point is.

 

[Fortress]

That... doesn't mean anything in regards to what we were talking about. Reel it in.

The point was what it always was. Pichu was garbage. Why do you want a piece of trash like Pichu back besides nostalgia? Is there a real reason? An actual way to make Pichu playable?

 

[trojanpooh]

That... doesn't mean anything in regards to what we were talking about. Reel it in.

Change. Things can change. Pichu may have been intended to be a joke, but he still has good aspect which shine through if you spend a little time playing as him. Aspects that, given the proper attention, would add to the Project M meta game.

 

[Fortress]

Oooookay, Brobama. Let's talk change. I'm sure Pichu could amount to more than a punching bag. Just balance him out a bit, make him not hurt himself, step up his longevity, and we-- what? We already have Pikachu?

I must be behind.

 

[trojanpooh]

Except they play nothing alike and he can be made a good character without removing the self infliction mechanic. You're either playing dumb or don't have much of an imagination for game design.

 

[Fortress]

Level design, actually, and I'm sure Pichu would turn out garbage no matter which way you slice it. Really, what can you think of for him, specifically, to make him viable. That doesn't include nostalgia.

And I don't need to play.

 

[red9rd]

whoa whoa guys this discussion thread is getting to duscussiony, remember what happened when the social thread got to social.

 

[Fortress]

No? We're rapping about Pichu, I don't get what's so wrong about it. It's not like anybody's starting a flame war.



........Did I mention Pichu is garbage?

 

[Saito]

Mewtwo and Roy were only bad because of design oversight. Roy was just a sloppy clone of Marth, where Mewtwo was... whatever in the Hell he was. Pichu was meant to be bad from the get-go; design intended, straight off of the drawing board. Mewtwo and Roy were able to be salvaged because they weren't made to be bad.

Point Fortress.

Why should someone who was designed to be bad have to live that life if they are able to be given another chance?
The PMBR could literally salvage this veteran and give it the second chance that it deserves.

Random thoughts time.
If Pichu was designed with items in mind, and we are playing in a game that completely went the opposite intended direction of where Sakurai probably thought it would go, then this character would end up being even worse off than expected right?
-------
If Pichu was designed to be this nimble character that could get items the fastest why is it the 6th fastest character in Melee? They even made it's "intended purpose" of scurrying around to get items to win a low point by not making him the fastest, and putting him near the bottom of item throws.
-------
Making something purposely bad doesn't mean that it can't be corrected for the best.

I don't get why Pichu has to be bad just because he was designed to be bad.
It's almost like saying smash has to be a party game because it was designed to be a party game.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

There's quite a bit of talk about changes for Pichu a few pages back, and how he differs from Pika, if anybody would care to take a look instead of beating this argument to death.

So how 'bout that Isaac, folks? Now there's a likeable fellow! And such impressive moveset potential, too!
BlatantSubliminalMessageMaskedManNeedsYourVotes

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Except they play nothing alike and he can be made a good character without removing the self infliction mechanic. You're either playing dumb or don't have much of an imagination for game design.

Pikachu: Cannonballs, Jab spam, Up throw chain grabs, thunder jolt spacing, QAC, Thunder smash edgehogs

Pichu: Cannonballs, Cannonballs, Cannonballs, Cannonballs

Speaking from personal experience, btw

 

[trojanpooh]

Level design, actually, and I'm sure Pichu would turn out garbage no matter which way you slice it. Really, what can you think of for him, specifically, to make him viable. That doesn't include nostalgia.

And I don't need to play.

Assuming you're not just pulling that out of your ass to look knowledgeable then I'll simply point out that level design and character design for a fighting game are nothing alike. And I've already given numerous thorough write ups on how to make him viable. If you honestly want to know then reread the thread, but I'm not going to waste my time explaining myself again to someone who clearly doesn't want to listen.

Pichu: Cannonballs, Cannonballs, Cannonballs, Cannonballs


Speaking from personal experience, btw

Doesn't sound like you're very good with Pichu, then. Sorry, I don't mean to be mean but if that's you got from your time playing him you missed the vast majority of his meta.

 

[Fortress]

Quit thinking reasonably. I'm here trying to blast Pichu, and you come in here... reasoning.

snip

Anyway, yes, if Pichu were to come back, it'd probably just be a faster, stronger Pikachu. It would hit harder at the expense of hurting itself, of course, but I don't see what it would do beyond that that would separate it from Pikachu..

Assuming you're not just pulling that out of your *** to look knowledgeable

I'm not, I promise. Started back in Unreal, worked my way into Hammer, got back into UDK, got involved in Forge for a while... it's been a trip.

Okay, sweet lovable Christ. What in the Hell is going on with my post. Why can't I get rid of these quotes.

 

[Fortress]

-****ing double-post.

 

[Malion]

I'd like if Pichu was sort of... you know.. to scale? It always seemed to me that his head was twice of size of Pikachu.
If he was a truly tiny spry little guy dodging around nipping at the oppenents heels I think I could get behind that. Him never going on all fours was kind of weird too (unless I'm remembering wrong) which only made him keeping items in his mouth all the weirder.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Doesn't sound like you're very good with Pichu, then. Sorry, I don't mean to be mean but if that's you got from your time playing him you missed the vast majority of his meta.

Fair enough, that's just all I found useful with him.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Hey, for whatever it's worth from the noob with <100 posts, I think it might be a good idea to cool it down at the moment.

Most of this argument has already been brought up--
One side contending that P:M is the perfect chance to do a better job with Pichu,
and the other side saying that he should stay gone because he was bad/unpopular in the last game.

Both sides have already cited numerous examples, and it's starting to feel like we're just arguing emotions at this point.

The funny thing about emotion is that it's far stronger than logic-- even when we know things logically (taking my own personal view on the Pichu thing out of it for the moment), our emotions can still keep us rooted in our views. (This can apply to anything, not just Smash.)

When people subconciously wire themselves a certain way, nobody else except them can change that. Using logic will not affect the other party if they're emotionally wired into that view-- nobody under the sun can convince them, because that person won't believe anything they have to say regardless.

None of this is written to attack or put anybody down in any way. I just hope this will prevent things from getting ugly-- and besides, we've already been through this discussion before anyways. Why go in circles?

 

[Fortress]

Seriously. Why did my post explode. All I did was try and fix it.

 

[ChronoBound]

I think everything that needs to be said about Pichu has already been said.

Personally, I am expecting Isaac and Lyn for Project M. Dixie Kong and a Metroid newcomer (hopefully Ridley) are also good prospects. Fifth slot could be anyone from the non-conventional character like Sami/Sukapon or Black Shadow/de-cloned Ganondorf, and possibly even Pichu.

 

[Fortress]

Assuming you're not just pulling that out of your *** to look knowledgeable

But, to put something behind my words, yes, I do know what I'm doing.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

So, to answer any questions: yes, I do know my way around an editor. Yes, I do know my dos-and-don'ts for how to make a working map, no I'm not trying to be facetious and, yes, I have been doing it for a while.

And, yes, Unreal does look like ass.

 

[Saito]

OSG is right. but I still have one last thing to say about Pichu.

They don't have to make him exactly like his Melee iteration. They have changed many of the Brawl characters to have completely new styles, but why is Pichu exempt from this treatment? If it's "Bcuz Melee" then just stop thinking that because it's hindering a lot of hidden potential.

Melee players know that Pichu was bad, that alone justifies changing him significantly if they were to bring him back. They don't have to keep him true to his Melee incarnation because of the fact that it was bad. They could completely rebuild this character into something that if in the right hands could be fierce, and dangerous while keeping the core of him being easy to KO, yet nimble with a surprising amount of power as well. And an interesting gimmick.

It would be a character that could be completely reinvented that probably wouldn't be anything like we are expecting a PMBR Pichu would be.

That is why it interests me so much to see what the PMBR would do with a character that was looked down upon as a joke, a hasbin, or any other derogatory term you could use to describe just how bad Pichu was in Melee.

I just don't see him being able to be remade and be different than Pikachu. I mean, you have to make him a bit tougher, a bit harder to kill, possibly remove self-harm, and what do you have? Pretty much Pikachu. They'd have to tear him down and build him from the ground up to make him not a carbon copy.

That's what makes it so interesting! We have no idea what they would do to make this character unique and different from the rest of the cast.

 

[Fortress]

I just don't see him being able to be remade and be different than Pikachu. I mean, you have to make him a bit tougher, a bit harder to kill, possibly remove self-harm, and what do you have? Pretty much Pikachu. They'd have to tear him down and build him from the ground up to make him not a carbon copy.