New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[ZeruSlayer]

I agree we should get off of Smash 4, but just because I still have something to say regarding her, I'm going to link to the thread where they're debating it. I didn't make all these gifs just to not use them.

Anyone who wants to continue talking about Lucina, please do so there.

http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-separate-character-or-costume.361091/page-4

I'm afraid to click on the link. Why does it even exist? The announcement trailer even implied Lucina was a seperate character by having Robin and her juxtaposed against Marth and Ike. I don't even...

 

[Solbliminal]

Eh, just because he has it as an assist trophy doesn't mean we should use it. Move is just a push, not that exciting.

I can actually agree with this. I've asked my friend who is a big Golden Sun player about what he would think about Isaac in Smash. He mentioned that move was a terrible thing to use as an attack, as it is only a minor function in the game with hardly any relevance to the game's combat.

 

[Shin F.]

I can actually agree with this. I've asked my friend who is a big Golden Sun player about what he would think about Isaac in Smash. He mentioned that move was a terrible thing to use as an attack, as it is only a minor function in the game with hardly any relevance to the game's combat.

It's a move that's actually only used for puzzle solving. No combat use at all in the games. Granted, that doesn't mean it can't be used for that, but I'd rather his Psynergy Hand attacks were limited to his grab.

 

[Jonas Yoon]

So you're accepting votes?
+1 Pokemon Trainer
+1 Isaac
+1 Ganondorf/Black Shadow

-1 Ridley
-1 Skapon
-1 King K Rool

 

[ZeruSlayer]

I can actually agree with this. I've asked my friend who is a big Golden Sun player about what he would think about Isaac in Smash. He mentioned that move was a terrible thing to use as an attack, as it is only a minor function in the game with hardly any relevance to the game's combat.

So you're accepting votes?

-1 Ridley
-1 Skapon
-1 King K Rool

Reasons must be given for negative votes

 

[Solbliminal]

F.L.U.U.D. Had combat relevance in Mario Sunshine. Your point does not hold firm.

 

[arcticfox8]

And for some reason it's not in PM, weird

 

[Solbliminal]

And for some reason it's not in PM, weird

I never said it was a design choice I enjoyed. It is still relevant though.

Edit: I derped. Sorry about that Arctic. I thought that statement was aimed at me.

 

[Jonas Yoon]

@ ZeruSlayer
Ohp sorry, I'm a noob on this site. But I find Ridley to be one of the worst ideas for a smash game. Not just cause of the whole, "He's too big" thing, I just don't think it's a good idea. It's like putting some character like Rayquaza or Andross in the game.
Next Skapon, it's not an iconic character that many will recognize. Hmm... I'm not too sure about this guy.
& Finally King K Rool. I've always hated him. I don't wanto see his face. Sorry to you KKR fans ;3;

 

[ZeruSlayer]

F.L.U.U.D. Had combat relevance in Mario Sunshine. Your point does not hold firm.

I meant if Isaac's hand was used in Project M it would be similar to that of F.L.U.U.D. Sorry for the misunderstanding

@ ZeruSlayer
Ohp sorry, I'm a noob on this site. But I find Ridley to be one of the worst ideas for a smash game. Not just cause of the whole, "He's too big" thing, I just don't think it's a good idea. It's like putting some character like Rayquaza or Andross in the game.
Next Skapon, it's not an iconic character that many will recognize. Hmm... I'm not too sure about this guy.
& Finally King K Rool. I've always hated him. I don't wanto see his face. Sorry to you KKR fans ;3;

Welcome to Smashboards . I don't tally the votes but all your reasons seem fine except for King K. Rool. I think Shin F. tallies the votes so expect a reply

 

[Solbliminal]

I meant if Isaac's hand was used in Project M it would be similar to that of F.L.U.U.D. Sorry for the misunderstanding

Not trying to come off as snarky but.... Why would anyone want that? Especially given this:

And for some reason it's not in PM, weird

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

When I saw the F.L.U.D.D. update on the Smash Dojo so long ago, I imagined the possibilities.

Would Mario switch nozzles for different purposes? Turbo Nozzle for horizontal recovery, Rocket Nozzle for vertical, and normal for a quick push to lead into other attacks for Mario to follow up with.

Come Brawl's release and I get a damn useless pushing move that you have to charge first, for no good reason since the payoff for all that charging is a useless pushing move that doesn't interrupt attacks or hurt people or can be canceled out of to allow for followups.

Sorry I was having a moment~

 

[arcticfox8]

@ ZeruSlayer
Ohp sorry, I'm a noob on this site. But I find Ridley to be one of the worst ideas for a smash game. Not just cause of the whole, "He's too big" thing, I just don't think it's a good idea. It's like putting some character like Rayquaza or Andross in the game.
Next Skapon, it's not an iconic character that many will recognize. Hmm... I'm not too sure about this guy.
& Finally King K Rool. I've always hated him. I don't wanto see his face. Sorry to you KKR fans ;3;

I don't know if that Skapon reasoning is sound considering the same can be said for most of the names in the OP and half of the PM's current roster.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

Not trying to come off as snarky but.... Why would anyone want that?

Lol, I wasn't trying to combat against your post. I was agreeing with you . That picture was just to reinforce your claim. I guess less picture more text will suffice next time.

I don't know if that Skapon reasoning is sound considering the same can be said for most of the names in the OP and half of the PM's current roster.

You're right, I guess I'm starting to get a little soft

 

[Solbliminal]

I don't know if that Skapon reasoning is sound considering the same can be said for most of the names in the OP and half of the PM's current roster.

The same could be honestly said about any characters in the official Smash roster too. Given Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., Wii Fit Trainer, and few select others, it is safe to assume being an icon is not nearly as important as the desire to have an interesting Nintendo character from an unrepresented franchise.

 

[Solbliminal]

Lol, I wasn't trying to combat against your post. I was agreeing with you . That picture was just to reinforce your claim. I guess less picture more text will suffice next time.

Hey a picture is worth 1000 words. That is what makes it hard to understand if you just post the picture.

 

[Jonas Yoon]

@ arcticfox8
You sure? I know all of these characters, but him. But, I guess that's just me ; A ;
Okay then, sorry for that mistake. Didn't know it was reasonable enough. ^__^'
In never says in the rules that I can take away a negative vote, right? :0

 

[Solbliminal]

@ arcticfox8
You sure? I know all of these characters, but him. But, I guess that's just me ; A ;
Okay then, sorry for that mistake. Didn't know it was reasonable enough. ^__^'
In never says in the rules that I can take away a negative vote, right? :0

We have to go through a vote validation before anything usually gets confirmed. Just be completely honest with your reasoning and we will talk you through it if there is any confusion.

 

[Jonas Yoon]

We have to go through a vote validation before anything usually gets confirmed. Just be completely honest with your reasoning and we will talk you through it if there is any confusion.

Alright thanks for the info! And yes, of course, I'm not lying one bit. ^__^

 

[Shin F.]

@ arcticfox8
You sure? I know all of these characters, but him. But, I guess that's just me ; A ;
Okay then, sorry for that mistake. Didn't know it was reasonable enough. ^__^'
In never says in the rules that I can take away a negative vote, right? :0

The only thing you can't really take back is your up-votes. As for the reasonings, ZeruSlayer mentioned your K Rool reasoning. Just know that I think very strongly disliking a character is sufficient for a down-vote. I'm pretty sure we've allowed that before.

Am I right about that, Sol?

 

[arcticfox8]

@ arcticfox8
You sure? I know all of these characters, but him. But, I guess that's just me ; A ;
Okay then, sorry for that mistake. Didn't know it was reasonable enough. ^__^'
In never says in the rules that I can take away a negative vote, right? :0

Well I know them, too. Because they're in the game. Before playing I was like "who diss" as I unlocked them.

 

[TimeSmash]

Isaac just does have so much potential as a character. Quake could be used kind of like DK's Down B, and things like Spire could be really interesting projectiles. Let's not forget that Isaac is also privy to other Psyenergy in the Mars, Jupiter, and Mercury elements, which probably would be used less, but still. Things like Djinn could also be incorporated into his moves, as well as weapon unleashes. His Final Smash could be a summon (maybe even voted on by the community, wouldn't that be nice) and has the potential to be the most beautiful one in the game

 

[Friesnchip]

I meant if Isaac's hand was used in Project M it would be similar to that of F.L.U.U.D. Sorry for the misunderstanding

?
Wouldn't unique implementation in P:M of Isaac's most iconic ability negate complaints that 'Move' and related psynergies aren't used in combat? Do you think Wario's farts, G&W's ball juggle, Peach's umbrella, ROB's gyro disc, etc. etc. were originally combat oriented abilities in their respective franchises? No, but Nintendo (and subsequently the P:M team) made creative use of what was available to those characters.

The same can be done with Isaac, without being lame like Mario's F.L.U.D.D.

 

[Jonas Yoon]

Well I know them, too. Because they're in the game. Before playing I was like "who diss" as I unlocked them.

LOL but I knew all these character outside of smash (except for Roy)

 

[Shin F.]

?
Wouldn't creative implementation in P:M of Isaac's most iconic ability negate complaints that 'Move' and related psynergies aren't used in combat? Do you think Wario's farts, G&W's ball juggle, Peach's umbrella, ROB's gyro disc, etc. etc. were originally combat oriented abilities in their respective franchises? No, but Nintendo (and subsequently the P:M team) made creative use of what was available to those characters.

The same can be done with Isaac, without being lame like Mario's F.L.U.D.D.

I'm thinking keeping it for just his grabs and throws would be best. It's not the way it's traditionally used, but it'd be a good implementation. He could use Catch to grab enemies and throw them around with Move.

Any other way would be hard to balance without it becoming useless like FLUDD or OP like his AT. There's a PSA that has it mapped to his B move. Literally the only thing about him I never use.

 

[Solbliminal]

LOL but I knew all these character outside of smash (except for Roy)

Yes, but other people are familiar with these characters that you are not familiar with. It has nothing to do with being iconic as I stated before. I'm pretty sure a lot of people had no clue who a lot of the characters in Smash Melee the first time around. Especially not Marth and Roy.

 

[Friesnchip]

I'm thinking keeping it for just his grabs and throws would be best. It's not the way it's traditionally used, but it'd be a good implementation. He could use Catch to grab enemies and throw them around with Move.

Any other way would be hard to balance without it becoming useless like FLUDD or OP like his AT. There's a PSA that has it mapped to his B move. Literally the only thing about him I never use.

I agree, a command grab special move would work as well. My point is though, unlike that PSA you mentioned, non-combat psnergy can be used effectively in P:M, just like non-combat abilities for other characters. We just have to think outside the box.

 

[TimeSmash]

?
Wouldn't unique implementation in P:M of Isaac's most iconic ability negate complaints that 'Move' and related psynergies aren't used in combat? Do you think Wario's farts, G&W's ball juggle, Peach's umbrella, ROB's gyro disc, etc. etc. were originally combat oriented abilities in their respective franchises? No, but Nintendo (and subsequently the P:M team) made creative use of what was available to those characters.

The same can be done with Isaac, without being lame like Mario's F.L.U.D.D.

Fun Fact Peach's Umbrella was first used in Super Mario RPG as a weapon haha, albeit blue. I think Move could be used in combat as an interesting edgeguard, I could definitely see it benefitting from windboxes

Edit: Interesting idea, you could make it so that the fingertips of the hand used for Move were sweetspots of it or something, and provided high vertical knockback. Maybe the hand could linger? It sure did in the GBA games at points haha

 

[Shin F.]

I agree, a command grab special move would work as well. My point is though, unlike that PSA you mentioned, non-combat psnergy can be used effectively in P:M, just like non-combat abilities for other characters. We just have to think outside the box.

Oh, I agree completely. Any unique technique or property can be a weapon in Smash. Just look at Villager.

Actually, though, I was thinking of his normal grabs and throws being Catch and Move rather than a special Command Grab.

 

[Friesnchip]

Oh, I agree completely. Any unique technique or property can be a weapon in Smash. Just look at Villager.

Actually, though, I was thinking of his normal grabs and throws being Catch and Move rather than a special Command Grab.

No I get that, I'm just saying there are other possibilities (most grab related considering, you know, its a giant hand) available as well. I do like the idea for him to have long range grab potential, making for a very strong ground game as people have been mentioned he should have since he is an Earth adept.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

?
Wouldn't unique implementation in P:M of Isaac's most iconic ability negate complaints that 'Move' and related psynergies aren't used in combat? Do you think Wario's farts, G&W's ball juggle, Peach's umbrella, ROB's gyro disc, etc. etc. were originally combat oriented abilities in their respective franchises? No, but Nintendo (and subsequently the P:M team) made creative use of what was available to those characters.

The same can be done with Isaac, without being lame like Mario's F.L.U.D.D.

Here's the thing about Isaac's "Move" when I used to play Golden Sun. It was only utilized for solving puzzles and it could be used to push and pull form a distance. In terms of damage potential...it's non existent. The pushing factor makes it similar to F.L.U.D.D which is a move that's used specifically for pushing players off the edge and preventing them from going back to the stage. The only thing that is creative is the pull ability which can be used to bring enemy's in or perhaps block opposition from recovering from the ledge. Isaac has the most unique potential in the game even if you neglect "Move" as a special move. I feel "Move" should be a grab animation but Isaac can be done multiple ways by the PMBR which is why he's my top favourite potential clone engine rep. My point is that creativity is one thing but viability is another (ex.Lucario getting stronger depending on how much damage he takes was a creative mechanic. Was it right? I don't think so, it ruins the base of fighting games which was about dealing damage to the opponent while taking little to no damage in return).

P.S. I just realized that "Move" can potentially be used as an up b to launch Isaac higher in the air. So much potential...such wow *_*. But in terms of combat...no chance unless it's a grab

 

[Exodo]

Eh, just because he has it as an assist trophy doesn't mean we should use it.

Move is just a push, not that exciting.

Also, even though I suggested using Growth as a tether grab, now that I think of it maybe Catch and Carry would be cooler, if more trollish. In Golden Sun, Catch is a giant hand that so far only catches Nut items (replenishes 200 HP) out of trees, but I can imagine it as a long-distance grab, too. Carry is when two hands come in to, well, carry something across the screen, and the animation could be used for the throws.



Yeah.

I guess you are right, im not a golden sun expert but yeah he could use some other cool stuff instead

 

[Solbliminal]

What do you guys think about Isaac using Marth's old charge stab animation for an attack?

 

[Shin F.]

P.S. I just realized that "Move" can potentially be used as an up b to launch Isaac higher in the air. So much potential...such wow *_*. But in terms of combat...no chance unless it's a grab

Lol, Edge already suggested that. It's a cool idea, though.

I think an awesome Up-B would be Ragnarok. His sword glows with yellow flames and he leaps high into the air, before coming back down with a powerful slash. And maybe even a wave of energy could come out on impact.

So yes, it would be like a more horizontally capable Final Cutter with a downwards sword slice on the way down. The animation would be similar to his critical attacks in the game.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

What do you guys think about Isaac using Marth's old charge stab animation for an attack?

Maybe as a forward smash but I feel that the special "b" moves should be reserved for only psyenergy related moves

Lol, Edge already suggested that. It's a cool idea, though.

I think an awesome Up-B would be Ragnarok. His sword glows with yellow flames and he leaps high into the air, before coming back down with a powerful slash. And maybe even a wave of energy could come out on impact.

So yes, it would be like a more horizontally capable Final Cutter.

What's worse than getting Greninja'd? Getting Greninja'd and not even knowing it . It's been 12 years since I last played Golden Sun, I don't remember ever beating it so I'm not much of an expert. I'll do some research on it. But thanks for explaining Ragnarok for me

 

[Friesnchip]

Here's the thing about Isaac's "Move" when I used to play Golden Sun. It was only utilized for solving puzzles and it could be used to push and pull form a distance. In terms of damage potential...it's non existent. The pushing factor makes it similar to F.L.U.D.D which is a move that's used specifically for pushing players off the edge and preventing them from going back to the stage. The only thing that is creative is the pull ability which can be used to bring enemy's in or perhaps block opposition from recovering from the ledge. Isaac has the most unique potential in the game even if you neglect "Move" as a special move. I feel "Move" should be a grab animation but Isaac can be done multiple ways by the PMBR which is why he's my top favourite potential clone engine rep. My point is that creativity is one thing but viability is another (ex.Lucario getting stronger depending on how much damage he takes was a creative mechanic. Was it right? I don't think so, it ruins the base of fighting games which was about dealing damage to the opponent while taking little to no damage in return).

It seems your view is constricting the uses of Isaac's Move related abilities. Yes, if done incorrectly the move could be made similar to F.L.U.D.D. and nobody would agree with that decision, but there are so many possibilities outside that. He can have a long range grab, short range command grab, use it to grab the ledge for recovery, spawn it as a short-lived moving platform for recovery or to trap opponents against a wall, throw it out as slow moving special like Lucario's spirit bomb, a charged projectile forward smash like Megaman's in Smash 4, it can be his down smash to push close opponents in combo range, and even more!

I agree that Isaac has the most unique potential when compared to other characters, but don't neglect the the versatility Move could have in his moveset.

 

[Solbliminal]

Maybe as a forward smash but I feel that the special "b" moves should be reserved for only psyenergy related moves

I'm not saying it can't be modified to be a synergy based attack. Hell. If you guys give me enough resource information about what you would like to see out of Isaac, I could likely Frankenstein a nice moveset together.

 

[Shin F.]

What's worse than getting Greninja'd? Getting Greninja'd and not even knowing it . It's been 12 years since I last played Golden Sun, I don't remember ever beating it so I'm not much of an expert. I'll do some research on it. But thanks for explaining Ragnarok for me

Well, I took some creative liberties with it admittedly, but hey, what Smash moveset doesn't do that? In-game, it's actually a giant energy sword that comes crashing down from the sky. But the way I see it used in Smash is Isaac charging his own sword with the energy, then leaping up and coming down with it.

Edit: Now that I think of it, there's already a move with the exact effect I just described that I completely forgot about - the Djinn Flint.

It's at about 1:05. This is exactly what I was thinking, but with maybe a higher leap.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

It seems your view is constricting the uses of Isaac's Move related abilities. Yes, if done incorrectly the move could be made similar to F.L.U.D.D. and nobody would agree with that decision, but there are so many possibilities outside that. He can have a long range grab, short range command grab, use it to grab the ledge for recovery, spawn it as a short-lived moving platform for recovery or to trap opponents against a wall, throw it out as slow moving special like Lucario's spirit bomb, a charged projectile forward smash like Megaman's in Smash 4, it can be his down smash to push close opponents in combo range, and even more!

I agree that Isaac has the most unique potential when compared to other characters, but don't neglect the the versatility Move could have in his moveset.

I have to be constricting at least a little because we only have Golden Sun games as a reference point for Isaac. Potential is there in "Move" but I'm thinking of it as a combat tool...not as aesthetic fluff if you will.

Grabs: Sure
Ledge Recovery: Fluff
Spawn Platform: Fluff
Corner Trap: Ineffectual since most stages don't have walls like Shadow Moses
Slow moving special move: If causes damage, poorly represents the game but effective; does game justice while remaining effective if Fast moving (same speed as a Waddle Dee being thrown i guess) and no damage
Pull enemy closer: Why not just run towards them? How big will the hand be? Why not just jump over the hand? Speed?

A lot of potential but a lot of questions rise with each potential implication of the move.

 

[TimeSmash]

It's been 12 years since I last played Golden Sun, I don't remember ever beating it so I'm not much of an expert. I'll do some research on it. But thanks for explaining Ragnarok for me

Christ, don't make me feel old like that.

I would LOVE a taunt where the Move hand waggles its finger at the screen or does the peace sign. It would be pretty trolly haha

Edit: There is also another gesture the hand could do that's quite funny, but would up this game's ranking to M in a millisecond