New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[JCOnyx]

+1 votes
Lyn
Isaac
Saki
Ridley
Shadow
Bowser Jr.

I don't quite follow your color coding, but the first thing I'm going to point out for you is that you can only have 5 full votes (+1). You'll have to change one of them to a 1/2 vote.

I like your list though, but someone will probably point out that it's missing a certain paper thin character...




Wow, I just realized I didn't give Paper Mario a 1/2 vote. If you could include him in my 1/2 votes that would be wonderful Anti Guy.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

In any case, in the anime (which the Pokemon in Smash are oft based on) preevolutions are frequently depicted as being faster than their evolved counterparts, and in the Pichu short before the 2nd(?) movie Pichu was shown using a much more powerful thunder attack than Pikachu but hurting himself in the process. Going by that logic it'd be perfectly logical and borderline canon for him to be faster and stronger. Oh look, I actually ended up talking about canon after all. Totally unintended but I guess it works.

That singular occurrence in which a singular Pichu used a powerful move in the anime probably carries less canon weight than the games, in my opinion, but hear me out, that's a small gripe and I'd rather discuss this part:

Pichu would be unique in that he'd be a glass canon as well as a high risk high reward character with the self damaging mechanic crippling some of his better moves. The premise would (in my vision) be that his all purpose moves that his meta game in Melee was built around would remain safe to use and some of his self damaging moves would be buffed to high hell. For example, maybe his f-smash would be easily his best kill move but it also damages him a hefty %; the player would have the choice to stick with combos and edge guarding/hogging or to speed up the process for a price. Damaging moves could also help in combos or such rather than just being pure power moves creating diversity.

Now you're bringing up some stuff that I can get behind a little more enthusiastically. I like that you want to keep his Melee self intact, but add the risk/reward as an additional layer of gameplay; I could legitimately see that as an incentive to use my best moves, but not spam them because they are the one and only best option (coincidentally the problem a lot of people have with certain P:M character designs). A few things I'd like to discuss on fine tuning his potential design are:
-Pichu needs power moves that can connect, not necessarily just more powerful moves. I think I've mentioned that the base knockback value of Fsmash is akin to Marth's tipper Fsmash (it might even be slightly higher). You could add something like a little more knockback growth, but it still requires negligence on your opponent's part to actually get that hit. Some moves should be powered up (off the top of my head: thunder, dair, skull bash, pummel) but buffing everything excessively will lead to an unhealthy polarization of the character. Then again, you seem to tone it down a bit by stating that not all self-damaging moves have to be KO moves, and I really like that idea. See my suggestion for powering up pummel: using a precious grab to deal a lot of damage at the cost of more self-damage. Same story for combo starters/extenders.
-Quick Attack Cancel is one of the biggest problems here. Agility moves slower than QA (not sure about invincibility data in comparison), so it will be less effective for on-stage cancelling and lower Pichu's overall speed in comparison to Pikachu. Answering by physics buffs or an Agility speed increas might be acceptable, but something that should be approached with caution because it will change the feel of the character. If agility still hurts Pichu as well, that's just a slap in the face. Whether Pichu can Agility Cancel or not (possibly for a nostalgic moveset or uniqueness) he has to have some sort of answer to QAC.

So yeah, he could be really cool. If nothing else Pikachu is an interesting character and a clone of him means a different twist on a unique moveset.

I've always liked having clones because they add some of the most fun matchups to the game. In competitive Melee, is there really a more iconic matchup than Fox vs. Falco? I find clone matches to be extremely enjoyable, moreso than dittos, because there are few easily exploitable strengths that my opponent can't use as well, but I have enough differences to hinge a strategy off of. They also add an interesting dynamic when played by other characters, since there is just enough matchup unfamiliarity to force a flexible playstyle on your opponent's part, but not so much that they won't know how to fight. I certainly wouldn't begrudge Pichu for being what you described here.

Unrelated:

pretty badass, I thought for a taunt you could have him pull a thorn.

Nice. Two more: he takes the fencing stance right before he does the jump attack in the video and the eyepiece on his mask glows. If he doesn't otherwise have the series of swipes he uses when shooting lightning, that can also be one. Or they could make it a taunt even if it's included, saves animation time.

 

[GunBlaze]

Pichu's F-Smash has the highest base knockback in the game (90), followed by Marth's Tipper F-Smash (80)

 

[CardiganBoy]

Spoiler

pretty badass, I thought for a taunt you could have him pull a thorn.

Dont forget the Pigmask Army Salute!

 

[red9rd]

There we go, got some unique votes there.

Did you change your pic? or were those things always in it.

 

[Solbliminal]

I'm afraid it has been awhile since I've last played Sonic Advance; is this move similar to the forward special in SSF2?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DVL5mrm4SNk

It is the only move this guy does off the ramp.

 

[Sobreviviente]

I dont really want a new character in PM, sorry, just pichu pls.
But vaporeon from smash land could be nice.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I don't quite follow your color coding, but the first thing I'm going to point out for you is that you can only have 5 full votes (+1). You'll have to change one of them to a 1/2 vote.

I like your list though, but someone will probably point out that it's missing a certain paper thin character...

Alright, fixed my votes a little as promised.

 

[Friesnchip]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DVL5mrm4SNk

It is the only move this guy does off the ramp.

Ah, I see. While I'm not sure if I'd like the move as a special, being able to aerial attack out of a spin into that move would be quite interesting.

 

[Diddy Kong]

As promised, my Isaac moveset:

Spoiler

B: Ragnarok. Isaac / Matthew charge up their blade similary in fashion like the FE characters would (but with no freedom of letting go like them) and casts a huge sword-like projectile out of it about a Bowser and a half wide (with an awesome sweetspot in the very middle) about 2 characters in front of him. The move would be as slow almost as Ganondorf's Warlock Punch, but has around the same knockback (weaker still) and does a whopping 28~32% when sweetspotted. 19~22% if a little off, 10~14% at the very end of the move). The move would probably have some super armor as well at the last few frames of the move.


Up B: Growth. Plants grow out of the ground to attack, or grow around a ledge for Isaac to climb back to the stage (working similary to a ladder). The plants would cause a slight sort of trapping effect, and do around 5% damage, but could be a good set up for a stronger attack. The higher the other character's %, the longer they stay trapped kinda similar to how ZZS's stun works, but this one is somewhat weaker. You can escape the plants by jumping.


Side B: I'd want to put Move here, but I kinda dislike the idea of it being an attack for him so... I say this should be Stone Spire, a ranged charge up move involving stone spires falling out of the sky on an opponent. If charged for a little, just one Spire comes out, and does about 12~14% damage, and could be considered as Isaac's main projectile, as it'd be coming out as fast as PK Fire would (except it being slightly stronger and with shorter range). Charged up somewhat longer and Isaac would cast 2 Spires next to each other, each doing about 12~14% damage. Charged up fully Isaac would cast a total of 4 Spires, and the effect would be similar to Charizard's Rock Smash on earlier %s, and would have nice knockback.


Down B: Gaia. A moveable projectile you can aim at the ground, where you can create an earthy erruption out of when releasing B. Like Stone Spire, you can actually build up damage as well when holding B, but this one lacks the sheer power you can build up with Stone Spire, but it can trap better, and requires a little more skill even. It's a option only usable on SOLID ground, so not on small platforms, it can also be done around edges, but not OVER the edges as it needs ground to be preformed. And it's strongest or most effective when a character is on the ground as well. It's actually like a moveable mine of sorts, and can be as strong depending on how long you hold B. It's the same kind of story with Stone Spire, hold B briefly and release and Gaia would be a small erruption, covering about 1.5 a Mario wide and does 11~14% if the opponent gets trapped in fully. Hold it longer and you'd have Mother Gaia which'd already cover 3 Mario's wide and could do 16~18%, hold if for the longest and you have Grand Gaia, which is a massive attack doing 23~27% and delivers great knockback if the opponents gets trapped in the move fully. As a general rule with this move, the stones comming out of the erruption do the building up damage, would work KIND OF similar to the Smart Bombs.


General playstyle of Isaac would be harder to learn than most characters, as his ranged attacks are his biggest assets. His Psynergy is rather slow, but are very good setups, a small Gaia spell could be cast into a stronger Spire spell, or otherwise. He'd be highly unpredictable, but at the same time, rather slow and furnable while casting spells. He wouldn't like projectile spam himself either, but Isaac has a strong big shield to protect himself with (like, Mewtwo's big shield but slightly smaller) and a normal Spire would be fast enough to counter back with most of the time.

He's highly versitale in his B moves, and his A moves would mostly consist of sword attacks. His sword would be a little longer than Toon Link's, and are mostly swift attacks with only a few moves you can effectively kill with. As a Venus Adept he fights the best on the ground, and would perhaps have a below average aerial game and jumps. He also would be a tad lighter than Marth, but shorter as well. He would mainly be good at egdeguarding, and KOing characters from the side of the screen, not from the top. His grab game is above average though and his throws go far and do good damage, and could possibly be ranged if they implenent the Move ability from him in it (it wouldn't go as far as in Brawl, but rather about a character in front of him) to counter these seeminly broken grabs, if Isaac would miss a grab, there is some serious lag involved. His running speed is about as fast as Luigi's, maybe a little faster even. Overall he's a character you have to play with smarts, but he can be highly effective if used well. His Psynergy is powerful and great for setting up combos, but he's still rather fragile, and even though he has some speed you have to watch out for lag often.

As a Final Smash, it must be Judgement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iHwgkwtMUY

I feel Djinni could also make part of Isaac's Smash moves, having their own gimmick that they need to 'recharge' to use the move as strongly as before. Isaac should have a dangerous ground game, but he'd be weak in the air. His aerials are similar to Roy's in usage, yet not quite as fast, but with a little better reach (counting Roy's sweetspots, otherwise they have lower overall range). And his air speed would also be rather sluggish.

Any critique is welcome!

For other movesets, or general inspiration / hype: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-golden-earth-shaking-adept-isaac-for-ssb4.324274/

 

[Starcutter]

just looked at the OP as well as the poll. how the heck does tails have negative 11 votes?

he would be a great character, an aerial sonic clone would be very interesting to play as.


anyways that's besides my point.....

great now I forget my point since I spent so long looking at the OP. oh well, I'm sure it will come up soon enough.

 

[AnOkayDM]

just looked at the OP as well as the poll. how the heck does tails have negative 11 votes?

he would be a great character, an aerial sonic clone would be very interesting to play as.


anyways that's besides my point.....

great now I forget my point since I spent so long looking at the OP. oh well, I'm sure it will come up soon enough.

Lots of people don't want more third-party characters.

Personally, I don't think MGS or Sonic should get more characters. If Simon Belmont or another Castlevania characters were available, I'd love for them to be in. I also think Rayman would be a great addition to Smash.

 

[Starcutter]

Lots of people don't want more third-party characters.

Personally, I don't think MGS or Sonic should get more characters. If Simon Belmont or another Castlevania characters were available, I'd love for them to be in. I also think Rayman would be a great addition to Smash.

well, that's your problem. I don't see why it should get in the way of such a great character idea. (but of course it's going to factor in and make it not happen anyways)

 

[AnOkayDM]

well, that's your problem. I don't see why it should get in the way of such a great character idea. (but of course it's going to factor in and make it not happen anyways)

Okay, be hostile. Good. Like it was going to happen anyway?

 

[Starcutter]

Okay, be hostile. Good. Like it was going to happen anyway?

oh sorry was that "well that's your problem" bit too harsh? wasn't meant to be like that. maybe "that's your opinion" may have been a better choice of words? oh well. I digress.

I was just trying to make a point is that if the only thing that's holding a character back is the "third party rule" and NOTHING ELSE (seeing as tails was in brawl as a trophy and a background character) it really shouldn't hold anyone back. besides, isn't all this hacking not really legal? using someone else's stuff isn't going to make it any less legal. plus, sonic's already in.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

oh sorry was that "well that's your problem" bit too harsh? wasn't meant to be like that. maybe "that's your opinion" may have been a better choice of words? oh well. I digress.

I was just trying to make a point is that if the only thing that's holding a character back is the "third party rule" and NOTHING ELSE (seeing as tails was in brawl as a trophy and a background character) it really shouldn't hold anyone back. besides, isn't all this hacking not really legal? using someone else's stuff isn't going to make it any less legal. plus, sonic's already in.

Sonic`s already in is the excuse people use to say tails CAN`T get in. Also, it`s not illegal if they still have to pay for the game to play the mod and if we don`t use anything that isn`t already featured in smash bros. already in some shape or form. I still disagree that tails should be a character because it`s a nintendo crossover fighting game, not Nintendo X Sega X Capcom X Marvel Ultimate Cage Fight Battle Tournament 3 Ultra Arcade Edition Deluxe.

 

[AnOkayDM]

oh sorry was that "well that's your problem" bit too harsh? wasn't meant to be like that. maybe "that's your opinion" may have been a better choice of words? oh well. I digress.

I was just trying to make a point is that if the only thing that's holding a character back is the "third party rule" and NOTHING ELSE (seeing as tails was in brawl as a trophy and a background character) it really shouldn't hold anyone back. besides, isn't all this hacking not really legal? using someone else's stuff isn't going to make it any less legal. plus, sonic's already in.

Yeah, and Sonic deserves to be in. Tails...eh. I'm not denying he could be interesting, but there are unrepresented (or underrepresented) Nintendo franchises that many people feel deserve slots more than a guest franchise. Tails doesn't have the star power that Sonic does, nor is he anywhere near as important to Nintendo and its history as Sonic himself. The fact that Tails is a third-party character does matter, whether it should or not. Some people (myself included) simply feel that there are more important characters over Tails. Hell, even if I did support another Sonic character, there are at least four I would pick before Tails, and most of them would be easier to make.

 

[Starcutter]

joke's on you tails isn't really even high up there on my want list. it was just that you guys were talking about being third party took away from a good character that kinda upset me a bit.

(even if that wasn't exactly what you meant.)

 

[Paradoxium]

Are you really going to try to bring up canon in relation to Smash? I'm not even going to bother trying to respond to that portion of your post because it's absurd and there are plenty of contradictions in the Smash universe already.

In any case, in the anime (which the Pokemon in Smash are oft based on) preevolutions are frequently depicted as being faster than their evolved counterparts, and in the Pichu short before the 2nd(?) movie Pichu was shown using a much more powerful thunder attack than Pikachu but hurting himself in the process. Going by that logic it'd be perfectly logical and borderline canon for him to be faster and stronger. Oh look, I actually ended up talking about canon after all. Totally unintended but I guess it works.

Pichu would be unique in that he'd be a glass canon as well as a high risk high reward character with the self damaging mechanic crippling some of his better moves. The premise would (in my vision) be that his all purpose moves that his meta game in Melee was built around would remain safe to use and some of his self damaging moves would be buffed to high hell. For example, maybe his f-smash would be easily his best kill move but it also damages him a hefty %; the player would have the choice to stick with combos and edge guarding/hogging or to speed up the process for a price. Damaging moves could also help in combos or such rather than just being pure power moves creating diversity.

Another potential mechanic could be a timing mechanic on smash moves where a fully charged smash does more % to Pichu. The trick would be that if you release just before the smash is done charging it would be just as strong but wouldn't hurt you as much/at all. Obviously this window would need to be very small, but it would help the risk/reward system comply with the "don't get hit" mantra that is so important to Smash.

So yeah, he could be really cool. If nothing else Pikachu is an interesting character and a clone of him means a different twist on a unique moveset.

The only real problem I see with pichu is that there seems to be no reason for him to be in the game other than the fact that he was in melee. And I know that if pichu was in the game he would be an interesting character, but one thing you need to keep in mind is that any character the pmbr adds will be unique and interesting, so i don't believe that claim can really be used in justifying pichu. Anyway i don't really see any point in adding him, another pokemon whos evolved form is already in the game, he was worthless in his game as well. Pikachu was bad in his game as well but at least he is the mascot of pokemon, and Jiggly puff was bad too but she has been in every smash game thus far, not to mention she was one of the best in melee who was played as a lot, she is also in brawl, which puts her in by default. And what justifies Roy and Mewtwo over pichu was that they're playstyles we vastly different from there clones. Besides Doc and Mario, Pichu and Pikachu were the most similar clones in the game. And in my opinion pichu's playstyle was very boring, you just hoped your opponent would over commit so you can attempt to make a punish, but this is just my opinion. Any Brawl characters in the game have a spot in pm simply for the fact that they are in brawl, but the melee chars aren't guaranteed a spot. I understand mewtwo because he has a very unique style and is the god of pokemon, and roy is one of the fire emblem lords who also has a unique playstyle(although you can argue that he too is an inferior clone). Pichu is like nothing, i think he is only in smash to represent that pokemon generation.

That's why i don't want to see him back in the game, although i believe he has a very big chance of getting in because-
-The pmbr will have a character to start with
-aspects of his moveset were not incorporated into Pikachu(although this could be because none of his moves were good)
-He was in Melee

And if he was added i wouldn't mind at all, i would still play him a lot, i just don't think there is any reason for him to be in project m

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

What if Pichu's Agility (his up-B) had three teleports instead of Pika's two? I think that would be pretty boss.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

What if Pichu's Agility (his up-B) had three teleports instead of Pika's two? I think that would be pretty boss.

Only one problem, he doesn`t teleport.

 

[trojanpooh]

But is that really a problem? Project M is suppose to be a sequel to Melee. Pichu was in Melee. It figures to say that he'd be in the sequel. Doc was mixed with Mario and put in as an alt, Young Link was only replaced in name, Mewtwo and Roy are both back so the only one still being left out is Pichu. It hardly seems fair to the fans of the character, especially since the PMBR thought it'd be a good idea to tease his inclusion in the April Fools Turbo Mode trailer.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

But is that really a problem? Project M is suppose to be a sequel to Melee. Pichu was in Melee. It figures to say that he'd be in the sequel. Doc was mixed with Mario and put in as an alt, Young Link was only replaced in name, Mewtwo and Roy are both back so the only one still being left out is Pichu. It hardly seems fair to the fans of the character, especially since the PMBR thought it'd be a good idea to tease his inclusion in the April Fools Turbo Mode trailer.

I really hope he does get in, I never played Melee and I really want to know what Pichu is like.

 

[Fortress]

But is that really a problem? Project M is suppose to be a sequel to Melee. Pichu was in Melee. It figures to say that he'd be in the sequel. Doc was mixed with Mario and put in as an alt, Young Link was only replaced in name, Mewtwo and Roy are both back so the only one still being left out is Pichu. It hardly seems fair to the fans of the character, especially since the PMBR thought it'd be a good idea to tease his inclusion in the April Fools Turbo Mode trailer.

Just wanting to throw a few things out there:

• Project M isn't a sequel to Melee, per se
• Doc and Mario were mixed because they were both solid characters with little to no differences in most aspects
• TLink's not a fair argument since he's only been in one game, and is pretty different compared to YLink
• Mewtwo was a unique character
• Roy was just plain more popular than Pichu
• Pichu was just plain bad
• It was an April Fool's joke, and I don't understand why it would make more sense to include him if his supposed inclusion was a joke

I really hope he does get in, I never played Melee and I really want to know what Pichu is like.

A glass cannon who damaged himself with a large portion of his moveset, could be knocked off of the stage extremely easily, and was just all-around bad. The 'paper tiger' concept is cool, and has plenty of reason to be included for somebody, but... not Pichu.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Only one problem, he doesn`t teleport.

I didn't mean literal teleports (like :MewtwoMelee ;u__u

By teleports, I was talking about those dashes (the same ones that Pikachu does when he uses Quick Attack).
I hope that makes a little more sense.

 

[Saito]

Sonic`s already in is the excuse people use to say tails CAN`T get in. Also, it`s not illegal if they still have to pay for the game to play the mod and if we don`t use anything that isn`t already featured in smash bros. already in some shape or form. I still disagree that tails should be a character because it`s a nintendo crossover fighting game, not Nintendo X Sega X Capcom X Marvel Ultimate Cage Fight Battle Tournament 3 Ultra Arcade Edition Deluxe.

I'd buy that if it played like Mortal Combat x DC x Tekken X Dragon Ball Z Extreme Battle Royal 69th Anniversary Edition with the Mass Effect DLC.

 

[Starcutter]

besides, the only one from pokemon worth it enough to become his own character is the trainer himself, with his own moveset.

am I right, guys?

 

[Diddy Kong]

But is that really a problem? Project M is suppose to be a sequel to Melee. Pichu was in Melee. It figures to say that he'd be in the sequel. Doc was mixed with Mario and put in as an alt, Young Link was only replaced in name, Mewtwo and Roy are both back so the only one still being left out is Pichu. It hardly seems fair to the fans of the character, especially since the PMBR thought it'd be a good idea to tease his inclusion in the April Fools Turbo Mode trailer.

This. Or add Plusle and Minun if Pichu isn't interessting enough by himself with similar gimmicks?

Blaziken also was very popular at a point. I'm pretty sure it's not that hard to make Blaziken fit in either? Just base him of Captain Falcon, like everyone always said he should be. And add some Falco-like characteristics, and boom: another character perfectly viable for the PM scene.

 

[Rhinevalcke6]

Please don't add anymore Pokemon than what we have, there's already enough. and if you do add one, please not Pichu, Pick a Popular one like Gardivoir, Gyarados, or even Blaziken.

 

[arcticfox8]

blah blah blah mewtwo is the god of pokémon

more like

or

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

more like

or

Well technically Arceus is the god of all pokemon, while mew is the fetus of all pokemon.

 

[arcticfox8]

Well technically Arceus is the god of all pokemon, while mew is the fetus of all pokemon.

Still closer to god than Mewtwo

 

[Paradoxium]

Still closer to god than Mewtwo

The god of pokemon was mewtwo's nickname back in the earlier generations, he was praised with having perfect stat placement

 

[arcticfox8]

The god of pokemon was mewtwo's nickname back in the earlier generations, he was praised with having perfect stat placement

Not anymore. He has no right to be praised as such when there's a Pokémon from his gen who fits the bill better.

 

[Malion]

They say 2 sega characters is too much... I say replace sonic with tails, problem solved.. :

In the 2d games Tails is just sonic that can fly and swim errbody who was errbody wanted to be tails... or Knuckles.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

They say 2 sega characters is too much... I say replace sonic with tails, problem solved.. :

In the 2d games Tails is just sonic that can fly and swim errbody who was errbody wanted to be tails... or Knuckles.

I WANNA BE THAT GUY!

 

[Malion]

Stick that 2nd controller in and you are tails the immortal. He will die and return to life and fly you to new heights! The 3d games never did tails justice and he always ended up doing silly things like piloting robots.

 

[Saito]

Stick that 2nd controller in and you are tails the immortal. He will die and return to life and fly you to new heights! The 3d games never did tails justice and he always ended up doing silly things like piloting robots.

Tails was solid in Sonic Adventure.

He ran as fast as sonic, flew, and had a crazy power up that pretty much made him a walking tank of destruction.

Do you know how many Chao's I destroyed using that infinite tail attack?

 

[red9rd]

Did someone say God?

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Did you change your pic? or were those things always in it.

It will remain a mystery to everyone.............