New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[trojanpooh]

Oh I didn't mean I wanted Pichu to have a new Up Smash. I was saying that Pikachu and Pichu's Up Smashes are already different moves as in Melee.

Ooh, I see. Pikachu is one of my least favorite characters so I didn't realize up smash was unique.

 

[geno]

Pichu has the Static ability in game, right? What if when he gets hit by physical attacks the attacker gets damaged kinda like Static.

I think maybe he could use that as an incorporation as his self-damaging mechanism. Like, if Pichu has done a certain amount of damage to himself that stock, the opponent takes a couple percent each successfully landed physical hit (in addition to Pichu doing that couple extra percent per physical attack).

Also, in regards to side-B. How do you guys feel about it? I think it'd be cool as Iron Tail (Charge similar to current side-B, but you can hit A/B at any time during the move to release your tail (flying forward portion wouldn't damage, just the actual Iron Tail part) or something to that effect). Or possibly switch thunder jolt over to side-B for a charged thunder jolt like Diddy Kong was talking about, and then have neutral-B open for Charge (works similarly to Lucas's).

 

[TheTuninator]

Guess I'll toss my votes in.
Votes:
Sami
Ridley
Lyndis
Hector
Andy

Half-votes:
Paper Mario

Negative votes:
Knuckles
Tails
Shadow
Bowser Jr.
Krystal

 

[arcticfox8]

I was thinkin' Pichu's skull bash could get a Green Missile misfire. I think Pichu could be a really cool Luigichu-type character in PM. You can take a lot of concepts from Mario to Luigi and apply them to Pikachu to Pichu.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Honestly i'd scrap skull bash in favour of a new move. Skull bash is useless enough. Besides Luigi, and pikachu already have a variant of that move, does the game really need three skull bash esc moves?

 

[TheTuninator]

Skull Bash was Pichu's most entertaining move. Scrapping it would be a huge mistake.

 

[trojanpooh]

Honestly i'd scrap skull bash in favour of a new move. Skull bash is useless enough. Besides Luigi, and pikachu already have a variant of that move, does the game really need three skull bash esc moves?

Nah, Pichu needs skull bash unless you plan on buffing the hell out of quick attack. It's too important for recovery to just scrap. Besides, all 3 attacks behave differently. It's not like anyone complains that Yoshi, Squirtle, Jigglypuff, and Sonic all have spins or the spacies all have lasers.

 

[GunBlaze]

Nah, Pichu needs skull bash unless you plan on buffing the hell out of quick attack. It's too important for recovery to just scrap. Besides, all 3 attacks behave differently. It's not like anyone complains that Yoshi, Squirtle, Jigglypuff, and Sonic all have spins or the spacies all have lasers.

Or Fire Emblem Counters for that matter,

 

[Diddy Kong]

Speaking of, Lyn should also have a Counter of coarse.

 

[Xebenkeck]

ehhh, I just think Pichu has way more to offer in terms of moves, some of which others have mentioned already like static and thunder wave, then to keep skull bash.

If you want to keep a similar move, I would suggest getting rid of Skull Bash but putting in something like Volt Tackle in it's place. Volt Tackle is a signiture move for the pikachu evolutionary line, so it could be descent.

Just for reference sake the list of electric moves Pichu can learn is:
Thunder Shock
Thunder Wave
Thunder Bolt
Thunder
Charge Beam
Volt Switch
Wild Charge
Charge
Thunder Punch
Volt Tackle

 

[TheMasonOrder]

I'd like to vote.

Full Vote
Toon Zelda
Hector
Pichu
Sami

Half Votes
Lyn
King K Rool


Anti Votes
Krystal
Skapon

 

[MagnesD3]

So much Krystal hate, le sigh...

 

[GunBlaze]

Now I realized I haven't voted

Support
Isaac
Dixie
Lyn
Hector
Shadow

Half-votes
Ridley
Sami
Saki
King K Rool
Samurai Goroh
Paper Mario
Toad
Krystal
Pichu
Tails
Knuckles

Denials
Ganondorf / Black Shadow:
Tetra
Toon Zelda
Waluigi

 

[arcticfox8]

So much Krystal hate, le sigh...

Why have Krystal when you can have Slippy?

If thats not a BAMF I don't know what is.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I've never really been anti-Pichu; I always loved playing as him and he was my favorite character while growing up, but I thought I'd throw in a few things to consider.

Pichu's advantages over Pika were largely small tweaks in physics. I'd call the momentum from his jump squat the most important of these changes. You also have a slightly higher grab range, smaller frame, much less weight, much less range, but slightly more protective hitboxes in general. I'm a little unsure about him actually being quicker than Pika, though. I don't think he dashes faster or anything, but if someone could point me to a movement advantage he has besides the jump momentum (which is a little situational with the addition of QAC) I'd be fine with that.
Overall, he did play different, but I wouldn't say vastly different. Pika and Pichu were still closer to each other in playstyle than most other characters. (that may just be my own personal strategy of using lots of SH Nair approaches)

Let's take a look at self-damaging:
Aerials: Nair is pretty much the go-to aerial for both of the 'chus. Punishing Pichu for using electric aerials won't matter much for differentiating playstyles because Pika doesn't use them as much either.
QA/Agility: Unless you don't want Pichu to Agility cancel (which would lead to inferiority problems with speed, range, combos, and probably additional stuff) Tacking damage onto agility is going to rack up the damage like none other. Is that really something that makes it interesting or just a useless feature? Pichu's lower KO% probably merits a better recovery anyways, I'd say.
Grab: The 1% pummel damage is ridiculous. Enough said.

I find it amusing that USmash is touted as such a unique power move from Pika when it still has less power, range, and speed than Pika's.
No buff should be given to his forward smash if it doesn't involve making it less SDI-able. That thing already has more base knockback than a Marth tipper Fsmash. It was pretty much the only move that had any sort of power advantage over Pika's counterpart, though, so I don't get where the "more powerful Pika" claims ever came from a while back.
Personally, I'm neutral for his inclusion. I play him all the time in Melee, and it certainly is a hoot, but I feel like if you keep that self-damaging aspect to make him unique, you'll open up a lot of problems and end up making a pretty massive overhaul to the character. Just don't expect the same playstyle if we ever get him, I guess. At that point I'd rather just have a different character, myself.

 

[fatman667]

Full support:
Black Shadow
Ridley
Lyndis
Samurai Goroh

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Support
Shadow

Denials
Shadow

Just thought I'd point that out for ya. Its taking a lot of self control not to suggest who you should give that 5th vote to.

 

[Solbliminal]

So much Krystal hate, le sigh...

Not nearly as much hate as Shadow.

 

[arcticfox8]

Psst
GunBlaze
#UnleashSlippy

 

[Rhinevalcke6]

So much Krystal hate, le sigh...

le

This is the kind of person that likes Krystal.

 

[trojanpooh]

ehhh, I just think Pichu has way more to offer in terms of moves, some of which others have mentioned already like static and thunder wave, then to keep skull bash.

If you want to keep a similar move, I would suggest getting rid of Skull Bash but putting in something like Volt Tackle in it's place. Volt Tackle is a signiture move for the pikachu evolutionary line, so it could be descent.

Just for reference sake the list of electric moves Pichu can learn is:
Thunder Shock
Thunder Wave
Thunder Bolt
Thunder
Charge Beam
Volt Switch
Wild Charge
Charge
Thunder Punch
Volt Tackle

I guess I should have been more specific. Personally I'm not attached to Skull Bash for anything but it's help with recovering. The way I see it it takes too long to charge for too little pay out. So long as whatever replaces it serve the same purpose in recovery I'd be okay with something new.

 

[GunBlaze]

Just thought I'd point that out for ya. Its taking a lot of self control not to suggest who you should give that 5th vote to.

My apologies. I hope it makes more sense now.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Up Vote:
Isaac
Sami
Ridley
Saki
Sukapon

Half vote:
Lyn
Ganondorf (does he come with black shadow? I'm voting them anyway if they're together)

Down vote:
Waluigi
Bowser Jr

 

[Saito]

On the subject of Pichu.

If the PMBR did take up Pichu, they could easily change skull bash into volt tackle. Just like in the game it does do self inflicted damage (On contact but still)
It would be glorious with an awesome animation.

Pikachu got his Bair from Smash 64 so Pichu would have his unique Bair which I always loved far more than Pikachu's in the other smash games.

So much Krystal hate, le sigh...

I bet everyone thinks krystal will play similar to fox/falco/wolf

No one wants more of that.

 

[red9rd]

So if Masked Man was added what do you guys think his moves would be?

 

[Deleted member]

I bet everyone thinks krystal will play similar to fox/falco/wolf

No one wants more of that.

I think the problem with Krystal is that, WHO do put her over? I mean, there are no spear/staff users in Smash, that goes for any character using an article not already in the game.

Then again, I know squat about programming, so what do I know... Just my two cents though.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I think the problem with Krystal is that, WHO do put her over? I mean, there are no spear/staff users in Smash, that goes for any character using an article not already in the game.

Then again, I know squat about programming, so what do I know... Just my two cents though.

I'm pretty sure things like swords and staves aren't articles, but parts of the character model with no hurt boxes.

 

[Malion]

Alright gon make some enemies righ chere.

Votes!
Toon Zelda
Tetra (with Toon Shiek alt costume or not whatevs)
Waluigi
Slippy (ah yeah son)
Tails

Half Votes
King K. Rool
Dixie
Bowser Jr.
Paper Mario

Down Votes
Shadow
Dark Samus

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Alright gon make some enemies righ chere.

Votes!

There we go, got some unique votes there.

 

[trojanpooh]

Pichu's advantages over Pika were largely small tweaks in physics.

You could say this about just about any of the clones that aren't Ganondorf.

 

[cmart]

I'm pretty sure things like swords and staves aren't articles, but parts of the character model with no hurt boxes.

This is mostly correct. Weapons that require dynamic movement ( whips/vines ) are typically articles tho I don't see how that would apply in Krystal's case.

 

[Malion]

The only issue with Krystal using a spear is that it's a two handed weapon. What about when she grabs an item?

It wouldn't be like Link where the item replaces the sword she'd have to either ditch the spear or hold it in the other hand drastically altering her attack animations... or would this not be an issue I honestly have no idea but it came to mind and I figured I'd say something.

If they could make it work it'd be cool and something different.. the spear could in theory be used sparingly with her having the gun usually? Or the spear could be dropped altogether and her be more like she was in Assault... very similar to Fox though with her own flairs obviously and her own custom tricked out Landmaster "Personally I prefer the Triceratops!"

 

[PsionicSabreur]

You could say this about just about any of the clones that aren't Ganondorf.

Pichu's changes were also less significant for the most part, or at least the changes that gave him an advantage. Falco and Young Link were changed vastly by physics tweaks, not just Ganondorf. Roy was pretty close to being in Pichu's boat, but even then greater gravity and a lower short hop were more applicable in his changing up his movement than Pichu's jump momentum. Even Doc had different air speed than Mario, Pichu didn't even have that. His air speed, gravity, falling speed, and dashing speed are all identical to Pikachu. When I said small physics tweaks, I meant small compared to just about every other clone.

I'd love to discuss Pichu more, I mean, I'd love to have my mind changed on his inclusion because it would be nice to have him back. The way I see it is that no other clone has such a size difference or jump momentum difference (which I'm now beginning to doubt slightly, since I'm unsure if this is a standalone trait), but my indifference mostly boils down to the fact that he is a different kind of clone, not a different kind of character.

 

[trojanpooh]

I'm not so sure I agree with you on how small the changes are but I've also never looked at the internal numbers of the game so you may be right. What I do know, though, is that they feel drastically different, which in the grand scheme of things is all that matters. I know that there are people out there (myself included) who don't like playing as Pikachu but do like Pichu because of how different they are and I know he fits an interesting archetype that would add to the metagame. Plus any stats that are identical (assuming you are right, which I'm still unsure of) could be tweaked. Mewtwo got buffs, it goes without saying that Pichu would get them too.

 

[ChronoBound]

I bet everyone thinks krystal will play similar to fox/falco/wolf

No one wants more of that.

There is also that a lot of people just don't like her as a character.

 

[Paradoxium]

Up votes-
Shadow(bias)
Isaac
Ridly
Sami
Lyn

Half Vote-
samurai goroh

Down votes-
toad
waluigi
dixie kong
bowser jr
tails
knuckles
ganonshadow
Pichu
Krystal
any mario character i forgot
any pokemon i forgot
any sonic character (except shadow) any sonic character i forgot

 

[arcticfox8]

Slippy (ah yeah son)

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I'm not so sure I agree with you on how small the changes are but I've also never looked at the internal numbers of the game so you may be right. What I do know, though, is that they feel drastically different, which in the grand scheme of things is all that matters. I know that there are people out there (myself included) who don't like playing as Pikachu but do like Pichu because of how different they are and I know he fits an interesting archetype that would add to the metagame. Plus any stats that are identical (assuming you are right, which I'm still unsure of) could be tweaked. Mewtwo got buffs, it goes without saying that Pichu would get them too.

Well, feel free to verify my numbers if you don't believe me, and check that jump momentum stuff while you're at it. There are easily accessible records for physics data, and I've checked facts myself. Pichu has very few physics tweaks, whether you believe me or not. When I play the two, which is often - I'm not just an outsider to the Ways of Chu, Pichu does feel different, but that mostly stems from having no range and being forced to move differently, not from actually having different movement properties. As it stands in Melee, Pichu neither fits the "Pika except more power" nor the "Pika except faster" archetypes. No matter how much it may change his feel, his archetype is just what would naturally stem from being a mini-Pika that damages itself for next to no reward, not from being designed as a unique character.
Mewtwo got buffs, but they left his physics alone. I'm reasonably sure they have avoided altering the character physics of Melee vets as much as possible. Considering Pika and Pichu are slightly above-average in their identical stats, Pichu's stats will have to be tweaked quite a bit to feel noticable at all. If such small differences from Pika made Pichu feel different before, than what they'll have to adjust to make him feel truly unique from, not even considering viable compared to, Pika will almost certainly be noticeable to fans of his playstyle. Pichu as a character has next to no priority on a Smash roster, as many people have pointed out, but his old feel and playstyle (i.e. appearance in Melee) is what could very well be his salvation. I'm just a little skeptical of making the claim that Pikachu just isn't the same because of extremely minor differences, but then requesting that Pichu be given huge playstyle changes to fit with the new roster. As of yet I haven't seen any suggested buffs that avoid this mindset, besides maybe just putting ridiculous damage on all of his moves to balance his fatal flaws, which I object to somewhat subjectively and have thus avoided arguing over.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Mewtwo got buffs, but they left his physics alone.

I believe they actually made Mewtwo heavier, since he was so ludicrously light in Melee. Just wanted to point that out.

 

[Anti Guy]

Up votes-
Shadow(bias)
Isaac
Ridly
Sami
Lyn
samurai goroh

Down votes-
toad
waluigi
dixie kong
bowser jr
tails
knuckles
ganonshadow
Pichu
Krystal
any mario character i forgot
any pokemon i forgot
any sonic character (except shadow) any sonic character i forgot

That's 6 upvotes. One of them has to be a half.