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New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

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PsionicSabreur

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I believe they actually made Mewtwo heavier, since he was so ludicrously light in Melee. Just wanted to point that out.
They did? Well, that would make sense, but I definitely haven't seen it anywhere (not to say I doubt it, that's one of the first things people wanted changed on Mewtwo). Mewtwo and Roy share the same weight as Young Link in Melee, which is pretty bizarre in itself. I will point out that I mostly was referring to movement physics, and even though Mewtwo's low falling speed makes him easy to KO vertically (it actually matters more than weight) they kept it the same to retain his movement and overall feel. All the same, point taken. Small statistical tweaks are probably not unheard of.
 

red9rd

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The only issue with Krystal using a spear is that it's a two handed weapon. What about when she grabs an item?

It wouldn't be like Link where the item replaces the sword she'd have to either ditch the spear or hold it in the other hand drastically altering her attack animations... or would this not be an issue I honestly have no idea but it came to mind and I figured I'd say something.

If they could make it work it'd be cool and something different.. the spear could in theory be used sparingly with her having the gun usually? Or the spear could be dropped altogether and her be more like she was in Assault... very similar to Fox though with her own flairs obviously and her own custom tricked out Landmaster "Personally I prefer the Triceratops!"
Think about how the Links grab things.
I don't really care for Krystal though.
 

Xebenkeck

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There is a lot of good stuff in this post and I think it highlights something important in that there are two things that make a character's playstyle.

1st there is their physics and this can drastically change the way a character is played. Imagine if zelda has luigi's traction but Fox's fall speed. The way you would play her would be a lot different then the way she plays now.

2nd they're are a characters moves. If someone has a really good bair then you can bet their metagame will evolve around that move. I like how you pointed out that Pichu is played the way he is, not because he has different physics then pikachu, but rather pichu's moveset is so ****acular that it forces you to develope a metagame around different moves.

So in terms of Pichu, what would be the better way to buff him? Ajust his physics to better augment his current moveset, or change his moveset so his metagame developes around "better" moves.

I'm in favor of changing the moveset personally.
 

trojanpooh

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There is a lot of good stuff in this post and I think it highlights something important in that there are two things that make a character's playstyle.

1st there is their physics and this can drastically change the way a character is played. Imagine if zelda has luigi's traction but Fox's fall speed. The way you would play her would be a lot different then the way she plays now.

2nd they're are a characters moves. If someone has a really good bair then you can bet their metagame will evolve around that move. I like how you pointed out that Pichu is played the way he is, not because he has different physics then pikachu, but rather pichu's moveset is so ****acular that it forces you to develope a metagame around different moves.

So in terms of Pichu, what would be the better way to buff him? Ajust his physics to better augment his current moveset, or change his moveset so his metagame developes around "better" moves.

I'm in favor of changing the moveset personally.

It's possible to do both in a way that stays true to the original character.
 

PsionicSabreur

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So if Masked Man was added what do you guys think his moves would be?
Here’s a decent video for showcasing the Masked Man, no story spoilers and it should show you what I’m visualizing for some things; it does lack the flashier intense bolt of lightning and PK Love animations, as well as the jetpack, but those are shown in more spoilerish story points so I’ve decided not to include them:


-Usmash: Lucas’s with possible slight changes to power, speed, etc, as balance and character variance dictates.
-Dsmash: Shoots an electric blast at the ground from his arm cannon, similar to Lucas. I’m visualizing a similar animation, as well. Could have an optional second hit, like Lucas, or just a single one.
-Fsmash: 2 possible ideas:
Cloned version: Lucas’s Fsmash, pretty much. They’d both swing it left-handed, so little animation work.
Original version: An overhead slash with a lunge forward, similarly to his battle opener in the video. The lunge would probably need to be less of a jump and more of a step forward.

-Neutral B: 3 possible ideas:
-Cloned version: Take offense up or a version thereof because powering up smashes is frankly quite cool. Not really supported by in-game events, but neither are half of Lucas’s moves. If another move is chosen instead, it would certainly make sense to place the Masked Man's power for each smash in between Lucas's base power and offense up power.
-Cloned version-Ness: Think similar to Ness’s, but goes slightly higher and on detonation, a lightning bolt is released towards the ground, causing blast of energy. My perceived problems with this would be really dumb edge guarding situations. Uses the little sequence of sword swipes as the charging animation, probably.
-Original version: Charges up lightning in his sword, which upon full charge can be released as a lightning bolt that strikes in front of him, hitting enemies in an area in front of him, or possibly out from him in a straight line. The lightning bolt could be an extended hitbox, or an article/projectile sort of object. An article might be possible if the vBrawl PK freeze is still available for modification along with offense up. Another possibility would be to pull PK thunder off of up-b and use it for this move, if that is at all possible.
-Combination: Charges up lightning in his sword, which can be released as the previously discussed lightning bolt, like a powerful variation of Lucas’s little offense-up burst attack, but also powers up his sword and/or gun smashes.
Possible balance tweaks:
Upsmash could possibly remain unaffected (but remain in-between normal Lucas and offense up Lucas)
Longer charge time
Lightning bolt uses up the charge even on hit

-Up B: Jetpack
I was personally thinking like Lucario’s Up B, except slower and greater distance.
Could also be:
Like Diddy’s recovery
A toned-down version of Rob’s vBrawl recovery
Similar to the spacies' recovery
This will probably need a new animation, and the difficulty will likely lie in the wings folding out for flight, but beyond that the Masked Man will not move much and take on a relatively simplistic pose.
Edit: This video has the jetpack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcbGp2VgJbM

-Side B: Shoots a beam from his arm cannon.
Similar in behavior to Lucas’s PK Freeze but likely with more range and power in exchange for startup/endlag. Speed will probably be similar.
Other ideas:
Possibly can shoot two in quick succession as a reference to his ability to attack twice in one turn in-game?
Can hold B to charge up the move?

-Down B: Shield killer- 2 possible ideas
-Cloned version: Same graphic as Lucas’s PSI magnet, except it extends from the end of his arm cannon and is orange. The repeated hitbox while holding the move (PSI magnet does that now, right?) does slightly more shield damage than PSI magnet, but not very much to avoid balance issues. The hitbox on release does moderate shield damage.
Possible balance tweaks: Magnet pull distance is reduced and release has 1-2 extra startup frames. Possibly different knockback or knockback angle.
Is restricted to blocking projectiles instead of absorption, or even ignores projectiles altogether.
-Original version: A little less sure about this. Purely offensive, perhaps a new graphic involving psychedelic orange lines, and nukes shields. Moderate startup or endlag, probably less of a shield pressure tool than a punishment on shields.

Haven’t thought much over normals or aerials yet, but here’s a few:
-Dair: Aims arm cannon below him and shoots a Samus-dtilt-esque electric blast, possibly while swinging the cannon to give a “trail effect” and require precision for a meteor or some other good knockback. Could function as a bair instead, except behind him instead of below.
-Upair: Sword sweep above him, think Meta Knight
-Ftilt: Sword slash with an optional follow up slash, like his ability to attack twice in one turn shown in the video. Somewhat like Meta Knight, again, but slower and not as weak.

This is just what I've come up with for moveset ideas (not to say nobody else has had similar ones), and hopefully it is capable of showing the Masked Man's potential.
 

Malion

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Anyone thought of maybe James McCloud?
He's a cross-franchise character and he could cover StarFox and FFZero
 

arcticfox8

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Pichu could get some changes in both physics and moveset honestly. Most/all of the normals could stay the same, while his specials could get some utility changes. Then the physics should be adjusted to support the new move changes/differentiate from Pika. Any physics differences Pichu had on Pika should be retained while any place they were the same(which is apparently a lot) can be changed to match our favorite babymon.
 

Xinc

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Think about how the Links grab things.
I don't really care for Krystal though.
I'll think Krystal handles a spear like how knights use lances: with a single hand.
 

Starbound

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I'll throw in some votes.

+1
Pichu
Bowser Jr.
Paper Mario
Dixie Kong
King K. Rool

+0.5
Dark Samus
Skapon
Toad

-1
Isaac
Ridley
Ganondorf / Black Shadow
Sami
Saki
Samurai Goroh
Lyn
Andy
Krystal
Tetra
Hector
Toon Zelda
Waluigi
Tails
Knuckles
Shadow
 

EdgeTheLucas

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In the cutscene right before the video's battle the Masked Man tries blowing up a door with a bomb with the Pigmask Army's insignia on it. I think a bomb like that could be one of his specials, they could obviously take the move's base from Link's down-B
 

PsionicSabreur

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In the cutscene right before the video's battle he tries blowing up a door with a bomb with the Pigmask Army's insignia on it. I think a bomb like that could be one of his specials, they could obviously take the move's base from Link's down-B
That would definitely be cool, but I think you would actually have to clone Link to get that article, assuming the game treats it as a modifiable article and not an item. Cloning from Lucas seems the most likely, and his down-b isn't an article (at least I think so).

I'll think Krystal handles a spear like how knights use lances: with a single hand.
Krystal's a cavalry fighter? Knights could carry lances in one hand because they weren't running around with them.
 

l3thargy

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Krystal's a cavalry fighter? Knights could carry lances in one hand because they weren't running around with them.
A real life example of soldiers/warriors/whatever you'd like to call them using lance type weapons would be ancient greeks like the ones in this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite

yes but that doesn't mean using one with one hand is impossible, take Hilde from soulcalibur as an example, she uses a lance and doesn't need a horse to use it in one hand
the attacks at 0:30-0:50 being 100% possible irl.

The only issue with Krystal using a spear is that it's a two handed weapon. What about when she grabs an item?
well she would probably just do the same thing as Dedede and just hold both the item and her staff.
 

Vilain

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I'd like to vote.

+1
Ganondorf / Black Shadow
Andy
Dark Samus
Sukapon
Isaac

1/2
Pichu
Paper Mario
Lyn
Hector
Ridley
Samurai Goroh
Krystal

-1
Waluigi
Dixie Kong
Sami
Saki Amamiya
Tails
Knuckle
Shadow
 

GunBuster

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Oh hey, I have an account from God knows when. I think I'll cast my vote.

+1 votes
Lyn (she has the status of being a main character from the first game of the series released in the west... she'd also probably have very diverse gameplay compared to existing FE characters)
Isaac
Dark Samus (simple enough for the clone engine, and the Prime games are great.)

1/2 votes
saki
bowser junior
samurai goroh
dixie kong

1-votes
Ridley (still too big, reaally not fond of what happens to his proportions when resized.)
Ganon/black shadow (as much as I know it's not representative of him in his actual games, I happen to LIKE my notcpt.falcon moveset on Ganon)
Sonic characters
Hector (as much as i like the guy, and going against what i typed for Lyn, he'd be far too much of a hassle... plus he was essentially newgame+ in FE.)
 

arcticfox8

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You have 2 normal votes left, Green Eyes.
#SlippyJoinstheBrawl

I think its dumb to antivote. Especially since if there wasn't a list on the first page there wouldn't be antivotes on characters. Overall its just a flawed system
 

GunBuster

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>Each unique poster can vote up to 5 characters.
>characters you're indifferent on... just don't vote.

I don't need them.
 

Paradoxium

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I'm not so sure I agree with you on how small the changes are but I've also never looked at the internal numbers of the game so you may be right. What I do know, though, is that they feel drastically different, which in the grand scheme of things is all that matters. I know that there are people out there (myself included) who don't like playing as Pikachu but do like Pichu because of how different they are and I know he fits an interesting archetype that would add to the metagame. Plus any stats that are identical (assuming you are right, which I'm still unsure of) could be tweaked. Mewtwo got buffs, it goes without saying that Pichu would get them too.
Just out of curiosity if they added pichu what would he possibly have that would make him unique and viable. In the actual game pokemon he is slower and weaker than pikachu, i dont think it would make any sense to make him stronger or faster, in melee he was an inferior pikachu, like he was supposed to be
 

trojanpooh

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Are you really going to try to bring up canon in relation to Smash? I'm not even going to bother trying to respond to that portion of your post because it's absurd and there are plenty of contradictions in the Smash universe already.

In any case, in the anime (which the Pokemon in Smash are oft based on) preevolutions are frequently depicted as being faster than their evolved counterparts, and in the Pichu short before the 2nd(?) movie Pichu was shown using a much more powerful thunder attack than Pikachu but hurting himself in the process. Going by that logic it'd be perfectly logical and borderline canon for him to be faster and stronger. Oh look, I actually ended up talking about canon after all. Totally unintended but I guess it works.

Pichu would be unique in that he'd be a glass canon as well as a high risk high reward character with the self damaging mechanic crippling some of his better moves. The premise would (in my vision) be that his all purpose moves that his meta game in Melee was built around would remain safe to use and some of his self damaging moves would be buffed to high hell. For example, maybe his f-smash would be easily his best kill move but it also damages him a hefty %; the player would have the choice to stick with combos and edge guarding/hogging or to speed up the process for a price. Damaging moves could also help in combos or such rather than just being pure power moves creating diversity.

Another potential mechanic could be a timing mechanic on smash moves where a fully charged smash does more % to Pichu. The trick would be that if you release just before the smash is done charging it would be just as strong but wouldn't hurt you as much/at all. Obviously this window would need to be very small, but it would help the risk/reward system comply with the "don't get hit" mantra that is so important to Smash.

So yeah, he could be really cool. If nothing else Pikachu is an interesting character and a clone of him means a different twist on a unique moveset.
 

Xebenkeck

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The best thing about P:M. The devs try to implement as much "canon" stuff they can. Lke diddy's juggling and boombox, or all of wario's new moveset.

Smash is indeed terrible for canon, but the closer they actually are, the more you feel like your actually playing Samus, or Diddy, or Peach, etc.
 

Chzrm3

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Adding DK's roll was one of the best things they've done. imo. =) That one change makes the character feel 100% like DK.
 

Solbliminal

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Adding DK's roll was one of the best things they've done. imo. =) That one change makes the character feel 100% like DK.
Speaking of references, I would love if they did Sonic's spin kick stunt from Sonic Advance 2 as his Side B. That would be amazing.
 

trojanpooh

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The best thing about P:M. The devs try to implement as much "canon" stuff they can. Lke diddy's juggling and boombox, or all of wario's new moveset.

Smash is indeed terrible for canon, but the closer they actually are, the more you feel like your actually playing Samus, or Diddy, or Peach, etc.

But they only do it when it's a competitively viable/interesting decision. And it would be within a canon, just not that of the games.
 

red9rd

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Here’s a decent video for showcasing the Masked Man, no story spoilers and it should show you what I’m visualizing for some things; it does lack the flashier intense bolt of lightning and PK Love animations, as well as the jetpack, but those are shown in more spoilerish story points so I’ve decided not to include them:


-Usmash: Lucas’s with possible slight changes to power, speed, etc, as balance and character variance dictates.
-Dsmash: Shoots an electric blast at the ground from his arm cannon, similar to Lucas. I’m visualizing a similar animation, as well. Could have an optional second hit (Lucas still has 3, right?)
-Fsmash: 2 possible ideas:
Cloned version: Lucas’s Fsmash, pretty much. They’d both swing it left-handed, so little animation work.
Original version: An overhead slash with a lunge forward, similarly to his battle opener in the video. The lunge would probably need to be less of a jump and more of a step forward.

-Neutral B: 3 possible ideas:
-Cloned version: Take offense up or a version thereof because powering up smashes is frankly quite cool. Not really supported by in-game events, but neither are half of Lucas’s moves. It could certainly be possible to not have these moves on the Masked Man, and place the base power somewhere in between offense up and normal smashes from Lucas.
-Cloned version-Ness: Think similar to Ness’s, but goes slightly higher and on detonation, a lightning bolt is released towards the ground, causing blast of energy. My perceived problems with this would be really dumb edge guarding situations. Uses the little sequence of sword swipes as the charging animation, probably.
-Original version: Charges up lightning in his sword, which upon full charge can be released as a lightning bolt that strikes in front of him, hitting enemies in an area in front of him, or possibly out from him in a straight line.
BRAINWAVE: Combination? Charges up lightning in his sword, which can be released as a lightning bolt, like a variation of Lucas’s little burst attack, but also powers up his sword and/or gun smashes. PK love would probably remain slightly stronger or equal to Lucas’s normal, for fairness and logic all in one.

-Up B: Jetpack
I was personally thinking like Lucario’s Up B, except slower and greater distance. Possibly could be like Diddy’s recovery, or a toned-down version of Rob’s vBrawl recovery.

-Side B: Shoots a beam from his arm cannon. Similar in behavior to Lucas’s PK Freeze but with different range, power, frame data, etc. Possibly can shoot two in quick succession as a reference to his ability to attack twice in one turn in-game?

-Down B: Shield killer- 2 possible ideas
-Cloned version: Same graphic as Lucas’s PSI magnet, except it extends from the end of his arm cannon and is orange. The repeated hitbox while holding the move (PSI magnet does that now, right?) does slightly more shield damage than PSI magnet, but not very much to avoid balance issues. The hitbox on release does moderate shield damage. In compensation the magnet pull distance is reduced and release has 1-2 extra startup frames, for example. Possibly different knockback or knockback angle.
-Original version: A little less sure about this. Purely offensive, perhaps a new graphic involving psychedelic orange lines, and nukes shields. Moderate startup or endlag, probably less of a shield pressure tool than a punishment on shields.

Haven’t thought much over normals or aerials yet, but here’s a few:
-Dair: Aims arm cannon below him and shoots a Samus-dtilt-esque electric blast, possibly while swinging the cannon to give a “trail effect” and require precision for a meteor or some other good knockback. Could function as a bair instead, except behind him instead of below.
-Upair: Sword sweep above him, think Meta Knight
-Ftilt: Sword slash with an optional follow up slash, like his ability to attack twice in one turn shown in the video. Somewhat like Meta Knight, again, but slower and not as weak.

This is just what I've come up with for moveset ideas (not to say nobody else has had similar ones), and hopefully it is capable of showing the Masked Man's potential.

pretty badass, I thought for a taunt you could have him pull a thorn.
 

Solbliminal

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You can, when you attack out of spin dash you essentially spin kick in the same way as Sonic Advance 2.
I know for a fact we're not talking about the same move. You are referring to the slide kick / somersault kick. I'm referring to the ramp stunt Sonic does in Sonic Advance 2 that propels him forward in mid-air.
 

Yomi's Biggest Fan

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Time to vote! This is going to be great and I've been waiting to do this for a while. I'll just say anyone that I didn't mention is obviously a negative vote.

+1 votes
Lyn
Isaac
Saki
Ridley
Bowser Jr.

1/2 votes
Dark Samus
Black Shadow/Ganon
Samurai Goroh
Dixie Kong
Shadow
 

Friesnchip

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I know for a fact we're not talking about the same move. You are referring to the slide kick / somersault kick. I'm referring to the ramp stunt Sonic does in Sonic Advance 2 that propels him forward in mid-air.
I'm afraid it has been awhile since I've last played Sonic Advance; is this move similar to the forward special in SSF2?
 

Diddy Kong

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Adding DK's roll was one of the best things they've done. imo. =) That one change makes the character feel 100% like DK.

This pretty much! I really liked how they removed the extremely awkward kick from all previous Smash games. I mean, Sakurai just wtf where you thinking? Luckily he did decide to give Diddy the cartwheel, which gives hope for a roll attack in the upcoming Smash but... Damn, it should've been in the FIRST Smash. Really, that move alone was the fact I choose to main Pikachu in N64 instead of DK (I was a kid back then, don't blame me).

Also, I will post my Isaac moveset I made earlier in the Smash 4 section soon.
 
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