New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Saito]

Edit: Does anyone know why sigs sometimes only show for our first post on the page?

Pages take longer to load.

Probably some of the moderators did this.

At least mobile browsing and slower internet connections suffer less.

 

[Bleck]

Turn off sigs and never look back.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

This thread needs a kick in the pants again, so time to bring up something controversial

You know how some of us want to see a canonical Ganondorf to fight as, but it would involve alienating past Ganondorf mains? Even if we kept the original moveset in the form of reskinning the old Ganondorf as Black Shadow?

Here's an idea: how about we keep Ganondorf completely the same, and we add Black Shadow as his own original character? Only not really--Black Shadow would actually play like a canonical Ganondorf would.

As in, Black Shadow would use a sword, use OoT Ganondorf's light ball attack, perhaps hover, etc.

I know this sounds like a dumb idea, but to me it's kinda poetic and ironic in a rather appropriate way. A lot of people already use Black Shadow skins over Ganondorf because frankly it fits much better, so people would be able to do the same with a Canondorf styled Black Shadow. His inclusion in this manner would be a nice wink towards peopke who want another F-Zero rep and a more appropriate-playing Ganondorf-ish moveset without pissing off all of the current Ganondorf mains.

I dunno, I personally think this is a cool idea that could satisfy both sides of the Black Shadow / Ganondorf debate. Nonetheless, I can foresee this being an unpopular idea nonetheless, so I'll see how people end up discussing the idea.

 

[Shin F.]

This thread needs a kick in the pants again, so time to bring up something controversial

You know how some of us want to see a canonical Ganondorf to fight as, but it would involve alienating past Ganondorf mains? Even if we kept the original moveset in the form of reskinning the old Ganondorf as Black Shadow?

Here's an idea: how about we keep Ganondorf completely the same, and we add Black Shadow as his own original character? Only not really--Black Shadow would actually play like a canonical Ganondorf would.

As in, Black Shadow would use a sword, use OoT Ganondorf's light ball attack, perhaps hover, etc.

I know this sounds like a dumb idea, but to me it's kinda poetic and ironic in a rather appropriate way. A lot of people already use Black Shadow skins over Ganondorf because frankly it fits much better, so people would be able to do the same with a Canondorf styled Black Shadow. His inclusion in this manner would be a nice wink towards peopke who want another F-Zero rep and a more appropriate-playing Ganondorf-ish moveset without pissing off all of the current Ganondorf mains.

I dunno, I personally think this is a cool idea that could satisfy both sides of the Black Shadow / Ganondorf debate. Nonetheless, I can foresee this being an unpopular idea nonetheless, so I'll see how people end up discussing the idea.

I like it. Sounds good to me.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I like it. Sounds good to me.

Cool, that's two who support it so far.

 

[Dr. Bran]

This thread needs a kick in the pants again, so time to bring up something controversial

You know how some of us want to see a canonical Ganondorf to fight as, but it would involve alienating past Ganondorf mains? Even if we kept the original moveset in the form of reskinning the old Ganondorf as Black Shadow?

Here's an idea: how about we keep Ganondorf completely the same, and we add Black Shadow as his own original character? Only not really--Black Shadow would actually play like a canonical Ganondorf would.

As in, Black Shadow would use a sword, use OoT Ganondorf's light ball attack, perhaps hover, etc.

I know this sounds like a dumb idea, but to me it's kinda poetic and ironic in a rather appropriate way. A lot of people already use Black Shadow skins over Ganondorf because frankly it fits much better, so people would be able to do the same with a Canondorf styled Black Shadow. His inclusion in this manner would be a nice wink towards peopke who want another F-Zero rep and a more appropriate-playing Ganondorf-ish moveset without pissing off all of the current Ganondorf mains.

I dunno, I personally think this is a cool idea that could satisfy both sides of the Black Shadow / Ganondorf debate. Nonetheless, I can foresee this being an unpopular idea nonetheless, so I'll see how people end up discussing the idea.

Good idea, but why would you give Black Shadow the sword/energy? Ganondorf mains could just play as black shadow.

 

[Dr. Bran]

I'm liking these ideas though!

 

[Halfhead]

I'm not sure I understand the whole "alienating past Ganondorf mains" thing. Why would they care when they essentially have the same exact character to use?

 

[NisforSmash]

I'm not sure I understand the whole "alienating past Ganondorf mains" thing. Why would they care when they essentially have the same exact character to use?

Just fyi most fighting games aren't as canon as they could be to keep things on a level playing field and for balance etc. To those people who maybe didn't play the canon LoZ and are now maining the ganon from smash, changing the character would result in backlash because you are now catering to LoZ fans as opposed to those who liked/mained the ganon from smash.
It would be the same as giving ridley charizard's moveset then giving zard a different moveset. While zard currently has a pretty good moveset which does reference the games he's from, it would upset smash zard fans and ridley fans alike. Just another fyi, if ridley is going to be included he needs to be done right and just throwing a previous moveset on him is a gut jab to the metroid fans. It'd be easier to just not include him at all at that point.

@ E EdgeTheLucas was suggesting that because people want a true ganon moveset and another f-zero rep, why not include said moveset over the f-zero rep? Honestly this sounds even better than the original blackendorf idea to me just because both fanbases are somewhat satisfied without chanigng previous characters.
I can possibly see LoZ fans being butthurt because the moveset that should originally be on ganon is now on black shadow who doesn't have nearly as much personality or popularity as the dorf but it would certainly be a creative and tasteful way to satisfy all parties especially since if shadow were going to be included his moveset options are very limited.


A thought.....

I dunno about you guys but i think it's more likely that characters will be added to ongoing series'. Not saying that it can't be done but I'd rather see the inclusion of say dixie, krystal/slippy, lyn/chrom, ninten/paula/poo, black shadow, ridley, or pichu over the inclusion of ray, sukapon, isaac, saki, sami/andy. What do you think?

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

@ E EdgeTheLucas was suggesting that because people want a true ganon moveset and another f-zero rep, why not include said moveset over the f-zero rep? Honestly this sounds even better than the original blackendorf idea to me just because both fanbases are somewhat satisfied without chanigng previous characters.
I can possibly see LoZ fans being butthurt because the moveset that should originally be on ganon is now on black shadow who doesn't have nearly as much personality or popularity as the dorf but it would certainly be a creative and tasteful way to satisfy all parties especially since if shadow were going to be included his moveset options are very limited.


A thought.....

I dunno about you guys but i think it's more likely that characters will be added to ongoing series'. Not saying that it can't be done but I'd rather see the inclusion of say dixie, krystal/slippy, lyn/chrom, ninten/paula/poo, black shadow, ridley, or pichu over the inclusion of ray, sukapon, isaac, saki, sami/andy. What do you think?

Implying Ganondorf has an appealing personality.

As for the other thing you said, I don't think we should discriminate against dead franchises like that, I think it's too unnecessary. Advance Wars is Fire Emblem's sister series, I think it at least deserves one character (Andy).

Edit: and according to Q Advance Wars isn't really dead.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Just fyi most fighting games aren't as canon as they could be to keep things on a level playing field and for balance etc. To those people who maybe didn't play the canon LoZ and are now maining the ganon from smash, changing the character would result in backlash because you are now catering to LoZ fans as opposed to those who liked/mained the ganon from smash.
It would be the same as giving ridley charizard's moveset then giving zard a different moveset. While zard currently has a pretty good moveset which does reference the games he's from, it would upset smash zard fans and ridley fans alike. Just another fyi, if ridley is going to be included he needs to be done right and just throwing a previous moveset on him is a gut jab to the metroid fans. It'd be easier to just not include him at all at that point.

@ E EdgeTheLucas was suggesting that because people want a true ganon moveset and another f-zero rep, why not include said moveset over the f-zero rep? Honestly this sounds even better than the original blackendorf idea to me just because both fanbases are somewhat satisfied without chanigng previous characters.
I can possibly see LoZ fans being butthurt because the moveset that should originally be on ganon is now on black shadow who doesn't have nearly as much personality or popularity as the dorf but it would certainly be a creative and tasteful way to satisfy all parties especially since if shadow were going to be included his moveset options are very limited.


A thought.....

I dunno about you guys but i think it's more likely that characters will be added to ongoing series'. Not saying that it can't be done but I'd rather see the inclusion of say dixie, krystal/slippy, lyn/chrom, ninten/paula/poo, black shadow, ridley, or pichu over the inclusion of ray, sukapon, isaac, saki, sami/andy. What do you think?

Intelligent Systems said they want to make a new Advance Wars game in mid-April.

 

[NisforSmash]

Implying Ganondorf has an appealing personality.

As for the other thing you said, I don't think we should discriminate against dead franchises like that, I think it's too unnecessary. Advance Wars is Fire Emblem's sister series, I think it at least deserves one character (Andy).

I didn't say his personality was appealing ;_;
I just said he had more personality than shadow does. I'd rather play a character with a bit of depth to them as opposed to a shell(not implying shadow is a shell). Wouldn't you agree?

I'm certainly not trying to discriminate against franchises that maybe weren't as well received as the big ones (hopefully i phrased that right) but I'm just suggesting that maybe adding characters to series' which already have playable characters is a slightly more professional move than adding a bunch of characters from slightly dead series'. I think there is definitely room for a new character from a new series but the max i would like to see is 2 that fall under that category. I feel that the idea behind smash is taking the core characters of a well known series' and letting them duke it out. Adding 5 characters from 5 new series' seems to me like the devs either heavily favored these characters or picked a series that can be summed up by one character which doesn't really appeal to me as much as it might to others.

I guess overall i would just rather see the series' that are already represented buffed up before introducing new ones. That's partially why i would prefer dixie/slippy/krystal/ridley over ray/isaac/sukapon/andy.

I'm gonna make an assumption here and I'm expecting if I'm wrong for someone to correct me.

Ray/Sukapon/Andy are wanted in the game to represent a popular game/series that had little to no representation in smash even though the game had a significant impact?

Intelligent Systems said they want to make a new Advance Wars game in mid-April.

Really? Didn't know that, but in the context of my statement i was talking about series' in smash that have playable character.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Really? Didn't know that, but in the context of my statement i was talking about series' in smash that have playable character.

I know, I just wanted to make that point. Andy or Sami are the last people I want to see in Smash. I love Advance Wars, and I mean I LOVE those games, but they aren't something I'd deem worthy of being in a Nintendo All-Stars game.

 

[Saito]

I dunno about you guys but i think it's more likely that characters will be added to ongoing series'. Not saying that it can't be done but I'd rather see the inclusion of say dixie, krystal/slippy, lyn/chrom, ninten/paula/poo, black shadow, ridley, or pichu over the inclusion of ray, sukapon, isaac, saki, sami/andy. What do you think?

It's more likely that existing series will be added on.
This is because very similar clones but functionally different tend to come from the same game.

Characters like Issac and the like are going to require creative thinking as opposed to just balancing.


I'd rather see the inclusion of whoever the PMBR makes that can add something to the game.

That's why we had a voting system and why I voted for those characters that I think can give a flavor not found in other characters.

 

[ThreeSided]

Why are we talking about this Ganon-Blackshadow thing as though it were a new idea? This is literally one of the voted-on and considered options explained on the front page. =P

Misread. My bad!

 

[Saito]

Implying Ganondorf has an appealing personality.

He does.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

What if we had Black Shadow replace Captain Falcon and give Captain Falcon Ganon's moveset and then give Ganon Zelda's moveset and give Zelda Toon Link's moveset and give Toon Link an original moveset instead of being another Link?

 

[Solbliminal]

He does.

I'm not seeing it. If anything, he lacks personality altogether.

 

[NisforSmash]

What if we had Black Shadow replace Captain Falcon and give Captain Falcon Ganon's moveset and then give Ganon Zelda's moveset and give Zelda Toon Link's moveset and give Toon Link an original moveset instead of being another Link?

 

[Saito]

What if we had Black Shadow replace Captain Falcon and give Captain Falcon Ganon's moveset and then give Ganon Zelda's moveset and give Zelda Toon Link's moveset and give Toon Link an original moveset instead of being another Link?

Link is link.

I'd rather them give TLink a 4th jab to go with his wind waker self.

HELL, a spin attack out of a jab would b cool.

And they missed the perfect opportunity to give him a counter aka his parry.

 

[Saito]

I'm not seeing it. If anything, he lacks personality altogether.

Forever in disagreement.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Link is link.

I'd rather them give TLink a 4th jab to go with his wind waker self.

HELL, a spin attack out of a jab would b cool.

And they missed the perfect opportunity to give him a counter aka his parry.

Spin attack out of jab... NO! NO! NONONONONONONO! Toon Link would break my Shins.

 

[Shin F.]

Spin attack out of jab... NO! NO! NONONONONONONO! Toon Link would break my Shins.

I'd be okay with that Let's also make Spin Attack cancel into jab!

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

I'd be okay with that Let's also make Spin Attack cancel into boomerang!

fix'd

 

[Solbliminal]

Forever in disagreement.

Well it is my opinion. I just personally find him far less appealing than almost every one-off villain from that series. Most notably Vaati, Ghirahim, and Skull Kid (Majora).

 

[Saito]

Well it is my opinion. I just personally find him far less appealing than almost every one-off villain from that series. Most notably Vaati, Ghirahim, and Skull Kid (Majora).

I like all of those guys though.

Ghirahim had one of the best personalities and gave me chills while I was fighting him.

Majora was literally a kid with too much power. Made for a VERY DANGEROUS person. I loved the way he just wanted to "have fun"

Vaati didn't really give me any feeling except in Minish cap. But in Minish cap, I'd say he deserves a spot.

Ganondorf has tons of personality for me thanks to playing wind waker.

My country lay within a vast desert. When the sun rose into the sky, a burning wind punished my lands, searing the world. And when the moon climbed into the dark of night, a frigid gale pierced our homes. No matter when it came the wind carried the same thing... Death. But the winds that blew across the green fields of Hyrule brought something other than suffering and ruin.

I coveted that wind, I suppose.

 

[Shin F.]

I like all of those guys though.

Ghirahim had one of the best personalities and gave me chills while I was fighting him.

Majora was literally a kid with too much power. Made for a VERY DANGEROUS person. I loved the way he just wanted to "have fun"

Vaati didn't really give me any feeling except in Minish cap. But in Minish cap, I'd say he deserves a spot.

Ganondorf has tons of personality for me thanks to playing wind waker.

Same. Wind Waker really brought out what humanity Ganondorf had. It made him more than just a King of Evil. It gave his character a depth that none of the other games did.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Just wondering, didn't you agree to refer to Sukapon as "it" earlier?

That was for when I wasn't sure of what Joy Mech Fight said.
"It" can make the antecedent ambiguous, and just "Sukapon" is too long and repetitive. I suppose, instead of pronouns, I could use "Sue."

Ray/Sukapon/Andy are wanted in the game to represent a popular game/series that had little to no representation in smash even though the game had a significant impact?

That and they're liked as characters and, at least for Ray and Sukapon, because they have great potential as new, interesting playstyles.
And I feel the exact opposite about Smash. I think of Smash as a crossover and celebration of Nintendo's history. Filling the roster with a handful of series narrows the view of both Nintendo and history, and fails as a crossover since you get to see such characters together all the time, hence it's better to choose A-rate characters from B-rate series over C-rate characters from A-rate series.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I like all of those guys though.

Ghirahim had one of the best personalities and gave me chills while I was fighting him.

Majora was literally a kid with too much power. Made for a VERY DANGEROUS person. I loved the way he just wanted to "have fun"

Vaati didn't really give me any feeling except in Minish cap. But in Minish cap, I'd say he deserves a spot.

Ganondorf has tons of personality for me thanks to playing wind waker.

Same. Wind Waker really brought out what humanity Ganondorf had. It made him more than just a King of Evil. It gave his character a depth that none of the other games did.

I guess I just have a different opinion, but one little paragraph didn't make him automatically deep and intersting and layered to me.

Especially since, during that scene, I was expecting Nintendo to go on. That paragraph was already a good start, but they stopped there because of a release date they had to meet. Which was a shame--I've wanted a fleshed-out Ganondorf for quite a while now since in Ocarina he was just a regular old Card Carrying Villain, and Twilight Princess just needlessly shoehorned him in when Zant could've been a great villain all on his own.

Besides, tons of other villains outclass him, especially out of the context of the Zelda series.

Well it is my opinion. I just personally find him far less appealing than almost every one-off villain from that series. Most notably Vaati, Ghirahim, and Skull Kid (Majora).

Pretty much how I feel.

 

[Shin F.]

I guess I just have a different opinion, but one little paragraph didn't make him automatically deep and intersting and layered to me.

Especially since, during that scene, I was expecting Nintendo to go on. That paragraph was already a good start, but they stopped there because of a release date they had to meet. Which was a shame--I've wanted a fleshed-out Ganondorf for quite a while now since in Ocarina he was just a regular old Card Carrying Villain, and Twilight Princess just needlessly shoehorned him in when Zant could've been a great villain all on his own.

Besides, tons of other villains outclass him, especially out of the context of the Zelda series.

Pretty much how I feel.

Length and quality aren't really the same thing - Twilight being one book longer doesn't make it better than Lord of the Rings. Sometimes, it's what you aren't shown that can make it more interesting. Wind Waker shows us a part of Ganondorf we've never seen before - a part other than the evil Dark Lord, and that adds an extra dimension to his character while allowing us to fill in the rest for ourselves. One paragraph isn't much, but taken into the context of the rest of the series, it does add an extra layer to the character. It gives us a whole new light to re-examine his other appearances in.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Length and quality aren't really the same thing - Twilight being one book longer doesn't make it better than Lord of the Rings. Sometimes, it's what you aren't shown that can make it more interesting. Wind Waker shows us a part of Ganondorf we've never seen before - a part other than the evil Dark Lord, and that adds an extra dimension to his character while allowing us to fill in the rest for ourselves. One paragraph isn't much, but taken into the context of the rest of the series, it does add an extra layer to the character. It gives us a whole new light to re-examine his other appearances in.

I never said that length=quality. All I'm saying is that in the context of the game it wasn't handled well. It was one paragraph, and it came out of nowhere before the final battle. Especially since before that moment he was still acting like the same old Card Carrying Villain from OoT.

It could've been handled better than that.

Edit: but now I realize I've been mixing up personality and character. Ganondorf's mad, imposing figure in Wind Waker and the other games are appealing enough on their own, and do lend to his personality.

But yeah, I just want his character handled better, to me it's not really enough what they did with him in Wind waker.

 

[Shin F.]

I never said that length=quality. All I'm saying is that in the context of the game it wasn't handled well. It was one paragraph, and it came out of nowhere before the final battle. Especially since before that moment he was still acting like the same old Card Carrying Villain from OoT.

It could've been handled better than that.

I think that the way it wasn't made into a big part of the game made it feel more genuine, like it was a part of himself he chose not to show and it just slipped out at the end. They couldn't just totally change his character - that would be confusing and contradict what we've already seen of him. Any development that was shown had to be subtle. You play the game, and he seems the same Dark Lord he always was, but then this little line is slipped in and it makes you question what you thought you knew about him. Twilight Princess went a bit backwards by making him into the same Card Carrying Villain, but Wind Waker handled it beautifully in my opinion. They could have shown more depth to him the whole game, but it wouldn't mesh with the Ganondorf we'd seen in OoT.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I think that the way it wasn't made into a big part of the game made it feel more genuine, like it was a part of himself he chose not to show and it just slipped out at the end. They couldn't just totally change his character - that would be confusing and contradict what we've already seen of him. Any development that was shown had to be subtle. You play the game, and he seems the same Dark Lord he always was, but then this little line is slipped in and it makes you question what you thought you knew about him. Twilight Princess went a bit backwards by making him into the same Card Carrying Villain, but Wind Waker handled it beautifully in my opinion. They could have shown more depth to him the whole game, but it wouldn't mesh with the Ganondorf we'd seen in OoT.

Maybe it works for some people like you, but about this part:

it wouldn't mesh with the Ganondorf we'd seen in OoT.

To be honest, he already was meshing well even up to that point. He was acting like a regular villain all throughout the game, like in OoT, and that meshed well imo.

And besides, characters suddenly become more interesting in later installments anyway. If Ganondorf got more subtle and developed beyond a paragraph of text, who cares if it's meshes well with his bland character in OoT? I'd enjoy him and call him a favorite villain of mine purely based on his WW appearance.

Basically what they did was okay, for most people, but for me it wasn't the best they could do. And I agree, I don't like his TP depiction either.

Anyway, in hindsight I now realize that I've been attacking his character, not his personality, which was what I originally said. Yeah I made a mistake. His laughing mad, imposing personality is fine enough for me.

 

[Solbliminal]

Ghirahim had one of the best personalities and gave me chills while I was fighting him.

But because of this, it leaves me to desire more from Ganondorf. Ghirahim wasn't just some power hungry nut job. He was a dedicated servant of a death god. He is cold and his personality can be seen and felt through his words and actions.

Majora was literally a kid with too much power. Made for a VERY DANGEROUS person. I loved the way he just wanted to "have fun"

Of course. It is the biggest reason people loved Skull Kid.

Vaati didn't really give me any feeling except in Minish cap. But in Minish cap, I'd say he deserves a spot.

But that is because they didn't introduce a personality until Minish Cap. 4SA was a very different case than most Zelda games though. It was a lot less story driven. It almost felt like the plot was non-existent.

Ganondorf has tons of personality for me thanks to playing wind waker.

Like I said before. Ghirahim pretty much made me wish Ganondorf had more depth as a villain.

 

[NisforSmash]

That was for when I wasn't sure of what Joy Mech Fight said.
"It" can make the antecedent ambiguous, and just "Sukapon" is too long and repetitive. I suppose, instead of pronouns, I could use "Sue."


That and they're liked as characters and, at least for Ray and Sukapon, because they have great potential as new, interesting playstyles.
And I feel the exact opposite about Smash. I think of Smash as a crossover and celebration of Nintendo's history. Filling the roster with a handful of series narrows the view of both Nintendo and history, and fails as a crossover since you get to see such characters together all the time, hence it's better to choose A-rate characters from B-rate series over C-rate characters from A-rate series.

All of that makes sense.
Not sure i agree completely but at that point it's just a matter of opinion and this thread already has plenty of those so i'll spare it an extra.

 

[NisforSmash]

Like I said before. Ghirahim pretty much made me wish Ganondorf had more depth as a villain.

I've played oot and majoras mask and this sums up how i feel.

I'd love to see nintendo make a zelda game where the first half you start off playing as ganon in the gerudo valley then you start gaining power and taking over hyrule. Then in the second half you play as whatever link is in that universe and stop ganondorf.

It would certainly give ganon some depth.

 

[Wolf_]

I like all of those guys though.

Ghirahim had one of the best personalities and gave me chills while I was fighting him.

Majora was literally a kid with too much power. Made for a VERY DANGEROUS person. I loved the way he just wanted to "have fun"

Vaati didn't really give me any feeling except in Minish cap. But in Minish cap, I'd say he deserves a spot.

Ganondorf has tons of personality for me thanks to playing wind waker.

Really? I thought Ghirahim was a bitchass lol

 

[Banjodorf]

Anybody who doesn't like Ganondorf is wrong and that's just how its going to be.

But like someone said above, I'm not sure why were talking about Shadowdorf, since we've already talked it to death. Then again, I guess we're sort of talking in circles until the PMBR announces something.

I think they'll do Isaac at the very least, with the rest being existing series. I'd love to be wrong. I don't think they'll do Shadowdorf though.

 

[Solbliminal]

Really? I thought Ghirahim was a *****ass lol

Pretty sure pants were loaded when this happened. I don't care who you are.

And even more so when this happened.

 

[Banjodorf]

...In all seriousness I was waaaaay too upset at the motion control issues to enjoy that particular boss fight.

I got used to it later, and enjoyed his character quite a lot, but still, blurgh.

...Y'know speaking of awesome characters, y'know who would be great? Zant.