New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Tingle would be hilarious. I'll give him a half-vote. Definitely the best pick for a Zelda representative, IMO. He's got tons of trolling potential, and unlike many of the other suggestions, he's actually been in more than one game.

 

[Kally Wally]

Because Project M is a mod of another company's work. This is only possible because of certain laws protecting transformative works, and because Nintendo would face a lot of backlash if they tried to shut it down in it's current state. Including any characters that weren't in Brawl could push Project M further out of the grey area that it's in, which the PMBR wants to avoid.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Revising my votes:

+vote:
Issac
Ridley
Goroh
Dixie
Pichu

Issac because Golden Sun could use some Smash Bros. Love. Goroh, Dixie, and Ridley, because their games don't have too many playable characters represented. Pichu because Melee, and he could be interesting, funny, and a thrill to play if revamped properly. P:M is the PERFECT chance to rescue Pichu from the scrappy heap.

1/2 vote:
Paper Mario
Lyn
Tingle
Lip
Knuckles

Paper Mario and Lyn are great choices that just barely missed the plus vote since their franchises are pretty well-represented as-is.

Spoiler

Tingle would be a pretty funny joke character and he's definitely the best Zelda choice IMO. If Lip doesn't make Smash 4, I think she's also long overdue for an appearance in Smash as well. I don't think Sonic really needs any more characters, but if anyone else gets added, I think Knuckles would be the best pick.

Neutral:
Andy/Sami
Toad
Tom Nook

I'm not for these characters, but I'm not against them either. If the PMBR can do a great job with these fighters (which I'm sure they can), then more power to them!

Though let's be real-- as it's been mentioned, the PMBR has probably already picked their choices for upcoming clone engine characters by now...

 

[yogurtgun1245]

Full vote:
Pichu
Dark Samus
Paper Mario
Dixie
Issac

Half Vote:
King K Rool
Ridley
Lip
Tom Nook

Negative Vote:
Krystal
Toad
Any Additional Third Party Characters

 

[ChronoBound]

Though let's be real-- as it's been mentioned, the PMBR has probably already picked their choices for upcoming clone engine characters by now...

They are supposedly still reading this thread though. I guess if they have picked their choices, its more along the lines that they have a pool of characters they are thinking on, and are mostly looking for to see which of those characters are supported or hated among the fanbase.

 

[Thanasiomedes]

Id vote for
Lyndis
Isaac
Dark samus
Kat/ana (like ice climbers)
Ray (doesn't really matter which to me.)

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Were my votes counted from the original thread? If not, I can find my post (will edit this post later with it).

My votes:
Pichu
Ridley
Sukapon
Lyn
Issac

1/2 point votes:
Tails
Andy
Sami
Dark Samus
Samurai Goroh

 

[Kix]

Why no Little Mac?

 

[ChronoBound]

Why no Little Mac?

Little Mac is one of three characters highly rumored to be in Smash 4.

Before the unveil, someone put out a list of characters:
- Animal Crossing Villager
- Wii Fit Trainer
- Mega Man
- Mii
- Pac-Man
- Little Mac

to be at E3.

I guess Sakurai ended up withholding the latter three. The fact that he got things like Wii Fit Trainer and Villager right, means that this was probably a legitimate leak.

Also, there is the fact that one of the stages in Smash 4 is a boxing ring.

 

[Chzrm3]

I actually have a theory that when someone said "these six will be at E3", the info was a bit mangled and what was actually meant was "these three will be at this year's E3, and the other three will be at next year's E3".

That makes more sense, right? You gotta figure Smash 4 will be in full-tilt hype mode when the next E3 runs around (since it's pretty certain it's not releasing before then), so they'd probably want to do something big and exciting for next year's E3 too.

The other alternative is that those six characters are the only newcomers, and the leaker got that confused with "all being announced at E3".

 

[Xinc]

Little Mac is one of three characters highly rumored to be in Smash 4.

Before the unveil, someone put out a list of characters:
- Animal Crossing Villager
- Wii Fit Trainer
- Mega Man
- Mii
- Pac-Man
- Little Mac

to be at E3.

I guess Sakurai ended up withholding the latter three. The fact that he got things like Wii Fit Trainer and Villager right, means that this was probably a legitimate leak.

Also, there is the fact that one of the stages in Smash 4 is a boxing ring.

Where's the source for Pac-Man? (And tbh, I don't think it's that feasible to have PacMan in a Smash. Maybe I'm just not feeling imaginative)

There's also been a leak about Ness returning, but it's unconfirmed and doesn't have anything to do with P:M's worries about C&C

 

[trojanpooh]

I wouldn't say 40+ people is a "handful"

Total downloads: 69549

 

[Chzrm3]

Total downloads: 69549

Awesome, I hadn't realized it had gotten that high! : D

That's just the downloads on 2.6b, right? I think I remember 2.0 passing 100,000, although I could be wrong.

 

[ChronoBound]

Total downloads: 69549

You know that polls for elections use much smaller sample sizes than what happens on election day, and yet usually give an assessment on what the election outcome is going to be (except in the case of tight races).

As it stands, this poll basically gives off what you would see from the wider Smash Bros. fanbase.

Venture outside the competitive subset, you will definitely find that Pichu is by far the least popular character to ever enter Smash Bros. (I think that is your primary beef with this poll).

You will also find most people think Waluigi is less important to the Mario franchise than Toad, Bowser Jr., and Paper Mario, and is overall a filler character.

You will also find that most people want few third-party characters in Smash Bros., and the one third-party character newcomer with the most support (Pac-Man) has less support than many other Nintendo characters (which says a lot considering how shallow the Nintendo newcomer pool is), which explains partially why the idea of a second Sonic character is so unpopular.

So to merely throw out the results to this, merely because the results aren't as big as you would like is to a bit disingenuous.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Statisticians usually work to find a population that's as close to perfectly representative of the population group (P:M players), especially in the case with voting predictions. They use demographics to pick people for their sample, and even then, they use a lot of people.

In this case, I'm not sure how they'd do it. There's not cleanly marked demographics for Smash players. This poll could be heavily biased, and we could all never know that it were so. It's pretty complicated, mathematically speaking.

 

[ChronoBound]

Statisticians usually work to find a population that's as close to perfectly representative of the population group (P:M players), especially in the case with voting predictions. They use demographics to pick people for their sample, and even then, they use a lot of people.

In this case, I'm not sure how they'd do it. There's not cleanly marked demographics for Smash players. This poll could be heavily biased, and we could all never know that it were so. It's pretty complicated, mathematically speaking.

It seems to me its the same types of people whining about the poll results, which are either:
- Pichu supporters
- 2nd Sonic character supporters.

The fact is that:
1. Pichu is the least popular character to ever become playable in Smash Bros. (put up a poll anywhere asking who is their least favorite character to have ever entered Smash Bros. and the Top 3 is pretty much going to be Pichu, Doc, and Young Link).

2. Most of the Smash Bros. fanbase is very conservative about third-party characters to the point there are very strong debates whether even freaking Pac-Man deserves to be in, and whether Snake deserves to return despite already having been in.

 

[PseudoTypical]

^ I personally don't care for Pichu, and as I've said earlier, while I support the Sonic characters, fair is fair if they don't get in.

However, that doesn't make all of the math sound. I'm on mobile and going to class pretty soon, but there's plenty I could say about how to create a list of potential characters if you'd like. I just don't know how I'd run representative polling numbers; it's a big obstacle.

 

[ChronoBound]

The thing is though with at least the Sonic characters, they are pretty much strongly dominating the hate list. The hate for them is far stronger than the votes in support of them.

While Pichu is more divisive and has more support than any of the three Sonic characters, I guarantee you that Pichu is amongst the least popular characters to ever enter Smash Bros.

 

[PseudoTypical]

I'm not disagreeing with you, at least when it comes to what I think the general P:M population likes. It still doesn't make our data any more sound.

 

[Anti Guy]

You know that polls for elections use much smaller sample sizes than what happens on election day, and yet usually give an assessment on what the election outcome is going to be (except in the case of tight races).

As it stands, this poll basically gives off what you would see from the wider Smash Bros. fanbase.

Venture outside the competitive subset, you will definitely find that Pichu is by far the least popular character to ever enter Smash Bros. (I think that is your primary beef with this poll).

You will also find most people think Waluigi is less important to the Mario franchise than Toad, Bowser Jr., and Paper Mario, and is overall a filler character.

You will also find that most people want few third-party characters in Smash Bros., and the one third-party character newcomer with the most support (Pac-Man) has less support than many other Nintendo characters (which says a lot considering how shallow the Nintendo newcomer pool is), which explains partially why the idea of a second Sonic character is so unpopular.

So to merely throw out the results to this, merely because the results aren't as big as you would like is to a bit disingenuous.

Likewise, research studies sometimes use sample sizes of like 20-50, which end up being precursors to changing the medical guidelines that determine people's lives.

So brief statistics lesson for those who think this is a "handful": The only relevant thing here a small sample sizes changes is your CONFIDENCE in making a conclusion - for example "at least 70% of the population means that this character is really favored." Well, for Isaac, with 46 out of 47 voters supporting him, we can say with 95% confidence that 88.6% to 99.9% of the population support him... or with 99% confidence that 85.1% to 99.9% support him. Either of those are way above the 70% mark. Having a smaller sample size would make those numbers go down, but because his percentage is so high, it doesn't matter.

I'm not disagreeing with you, at least when it comes to what I think the general P:M population likes. It still doesn't make our data any more sound.

^ If you do the calculations, the data is statistically sound for the extreme cases.

 

[PseudoTypical]

^ Yup, so long as the population is representative. Confidence intervals are great, but we need to know that one fact first to determine what demographics to represent.

 

[ChronoBound]

I'm not disagreeing with you, at least when it comes to what I think the general P:M population likes. It still doesn't make our data any more sound.

Outside of Project M population, Pichu is among the Top 3 least popular Smash fighters (the only other two down there with him is Dr. Mario and Young Link), and most Smash Bros. fanbase (including Sakurai himself) have very conservative ideals on what kind of third-party characters should be in Smash Bros.

Like I said, the fact that Pac-Man is the most supported third-party newcomer for Smash 4, and is outside the Top 10 most wanted newcomers, shows that there are very high parameters among the Smash Bros. fanbase on who they would like to see enter Smash Bros. in regards to guests. That even SNAKE has heated debates on whether he should return shows the extent to this. I think Sakurai himself put it best when he said that only particularly legendary non-Nintendo characters are worthy enough to enter Smash Bros. (he used this line when talking about Mega Man being added in).

 

[Anti Guy]

^ Yup, so long as the population is representative. Confidence intervals are great, but we need to know that one fact first to determine what demographics to represent.

And like I said in an earlier post, given the nature of this being a MOD (i.e. favors more competitive players) and that this is the only forum for P:M, it's fairly representative as we're talking about a narrow demographic representing a narrow demographic.

 

[PseudoTypical]

And like I said in an earlier post, given the nature of this being a MOD (i.e. favors more competitive players) and that this is the only forum for P:M, it's fairly representative as we're talking about a narrow demographic representing a narrow demographic.

I think it ought to encompass casual players in some respect. My presence here doesn't represent the 10-15 people I play the game with that have never looked at sites like this as far as I know. I think you're underestimating their size.

 

[PseudoTypical]

^ lol I'm not saying you're wrong! We just need good numbers to ensure what people want. They could have terrible reasons for wanting them, but it doesn't change what they want.

 

[ChronoBound]

I think it ought to encompass casual players in some respect. My presence here doesn't represent the 10-15 people I play the game with that have never looked at sites like this as far as I know. I think you're underestimating their size.

The casuals hate Pichu even more.

 

[Anti Guy]

I think it ought to encompass casual players in some respect. My presence here doesn't represent the 10-15 people I play the game with that have never looked at sites like this as far as I know. I think you're underestimating their size.

Another thing... what differentiates casuals from people posting on this board? By definition it's mainly the level of skill and how much they actually care about the game (to go out of their way and post on forums... or in this case, not at all). And secondarily, probably a smaller knowledge of Nintendo games and characters, as that person won't be going around posting on video game forums. Level of skill has no effect on what characters people like. One of your 10-15 friends may be asked if he'd like Isaac, and if he was a Golden Sun player too, he'd say yes. Otherwise, most likely they won't care. And for those who know less about Nintendo characters, it's more going to be "don't care either way" rather than being an anti-vote. So ultimately, this group of casual players likely won't care enough to even cast votes in a poll like this (and if they do care, would most likely mimic what we've seen so far), and would just be happy with any additional characters.

 

[PseudoTypical]

^ I'd rather not take your word for it.

You're probably right, but don't they also deserve some sort of weight in the decision?

 

[Anti Guy]

^ I'd rather not take your word for it.

You're probably right, but don't they also deserve some sort of weight in the decision?

Sure. But just like any voter in the US, it's up to them if they want to vote. Like I said, they probably don't care enough to. If we're using the term "casual" to define people who didn't vote in this, then it's likely most of them don't care enough either way. And also, having "weight in the decision" is a little bit of a misnomer... all the weight in the decision is in the PMBR.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Sure. But just like any voter in the US, it's up to them if they want to vote. Like I said, they probably don't care enough to. If we're using the term "casual" to define people who didn't vote in this, then it's likely most of them don't care enough either way. And also, having "weight in the decision" is a little bit of a misnomer... all the weight in the decision is in the PMBR.

It's probably true that there's some significant part of the casual base (I agree to use your definition) that doesn't care. That doesn't necessarily mean that there's an insignificant amount that does care. The non-caring proportion could be a supermajority, but there'd still be 1/3 of the causal base, which I believe we both agree is quite large, that cares about the results.

 

[Anti Guy]

And like I said, that 1/3 of them that DO care would most likely fall in line with the rest of the votes here Unless you're aware of some key difference between them and the people that have posted here that would make them think differently

 

[Deleted member]

No, it looks like a handful of people in this thread want Isaac and Ridley to be in PM, don't get the two confused. In the end the PMBR are still going to pick who they want to do, keeping in mind the limitations of the clone engine. The population of this thread is a small fraction of the people active on the PM forums let alone the entire PM fanbase. Don't take the votes as scripture because ultimately you never know what is going to happen.

Edit: Also we don't even know if the PMBR is going to include 5 more characters, they may stop at a handful or even just leave it at Roy and Mewtwo.

The PMBR has thoroughly hinted at the idea of adding original characters now that the clone engine is in place, but you never know, they might just pull back in that.

I wouldn't say 40+ people is a "handful"

It is man... In contrast to how many people have played PM, that's less than 0.1%. Granted, the views here problably wouldn't deviate much more the whole.

On the other hand, the votes here aren't gonna determine the final decisions made by the PMBR.

So why is there the limitation of the character having had to appear in brawl?

Legal issues.

I don't think the PMBR wants their precious mod to be taken down by the Big N.

 

[PseudoTypical]

And like I said, that 1/3 of them that DO care would most likely fall in line with the rest of the votes here Unless you're aware of some key difference between them and the people that have posted here that would make them think differently

All I'm saying is that, since they do care, we shouldn't assume their vote. Reminds me of the idea of virtual representation from American history...

 

[ChronoBound]

It is man... In contrast to how many people have played PM, that's less than 0.1%. Granted, the views here problably wouldn't deviate much more the whole.

On the other hand, the votes here aren't gonna determine the final decisions made by the PMBR.

I think characters that are doing very highly on this poll like Isaac, Dixie, Lyn are characters that probably were already on the table prior to this poll as far as the PMBR team are concerned.

The only character I could see ending up being the "Sonic" (as in a character never originally considered by the developers, but got in through sheer massive demand) would be Ridley, and I am not sure if fan demand would be enough put him through the top.

I am also sure they already knew Pichu was going to be something very divisive.

I think what they possibly found more intriguing is the hate list rather than the popular list.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Can you explain the legal issues?

 

[Deleted member]

I think characters that are doing very highly on this poll like Isaac, Dixie, Lyn are characters probably thay were already on the table prior to this poll as far as the PMBR team are concerned.

The only character I could see ending up being the "Sonic" (as in a character never originally considered by the developers, but got in through sheer massive demand) would be Ridley, and I am not sure if fan demand would be enough put him through the top.

I am also sure they already knew Pichu was going to be something very divisive.

I think what they possibly found more intriguing is the hate list rather than the popular list.

No, I agree. I'm merely saying it for the people who see the likes of a character they support doing good or bad, and more get their hopes up/discouraged.

Overall, it's not definitive, but it's a nice indicator.

Can you explain the legal issues?

Look up what Nintendo did to the Pokemon MMO, and the Super Mario Bros, level editor.

 

[Rikana]

We are only sticking with characters that have made an appearence in Brawl (whether it be via trophy, sticker, background, etc).

 

[ChronoBound]

Dixie is doing well in this poll due to being a popular character that is feasible enough to be at least a luigi-fied clone, however, I wonder if K. Rool might also potentially be clone material.

There have been hacks of him as a model swap for King Dedede, with his blunderpuss in place of the hammer.

There are obviously a lot of problems with the hack. However, thinking about it. It might work.

Neutral B could be the suction ability from the blunderpuss instead of inhaling like Dedede.
Side-B could be him throwing Klap Traps instead of Waddle Dees.
Up-B could be based off of his jumping ground pound from DK64.
Down-B could just be an exactly cloned special with some effect and damage differences.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

We are only sticking with characters that have made an appearence in Brawl (whether it be via trophy, sticker, background, etc).

What I don't understand is why those are okay, but the others aren't.

 

[Rikana]

Because the characters on the Brawl disc have legal rights to be used in Brawl.