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Well then, I guess it's not much of a surprise that I think I'm not wrong. Here's why:
OoT: Ganondorf opens with some sort of magically imbued punch (which can be likened to his current fair), which causes the floor to collapse. This is the first combat maneuver we've ever seen him perform. So a decent start. His other abilities are represented by two different magical attacks and a transformation into an uncontrollable beast that shows no semblance of magical ability and uses swords that would be unimplementable on any Smash version of Ganon.
Wind Waker: Cutscene before the final battle, Ganondorf attacks Link with a series of powerful punches. He also knocks Zelda out with a single backhand. His sword techniques are also rather limited, even compared to the number of recognizable unarmed attacks he uses throughout the series. Again, all aspects of magic used by Ganondorf in this game or less direct-combat-oriented, and would translate poorly to any Smash Ganon, brawler or not.
Twilight Princess: He kills a sage with his bare hands, while impaled with a conveniently reachable sword. Also, I already went over the elbow and kick attacks. Seems pretty brawlerish to me, to kick your opponent's shield out of the way in a swordfight because the sword just isn't cutting it (pun intended). Using a sword as Zelda is akin to picking up the nearest weapon to fight, since Zelda's body is hardly fit to perform the same feats of strength that Ganondorf's could.
Everything else tends to fall under Trident Ganon or assorted alternate forms, which would be difficult enough so that it probably wouldn't be implemented on a new Ganon anyways (Fire keese and his boomerang trident, maybe? Why use either over the Volleyball of Doom? You'll have to bring something up if I've missed it).
I think you're looking at my argument the wrong way. I'm simply saying that physical attacks are very much supported by Zelda canon, as I've discussed, and thus, I don't get why the idea seems to be that it has no place in his moveset. I wouldn't make a single negative comment if Ganon were given a few "more canon" moves, but I certainly frown at the idea of bringing in Black Shadow to do the job.
OoT: Keywords there: Magically imbued. The entire fight was magic-based, with one punch thrown in (and even that was magic). As for Beast Sword Ganon - yes, that would be fairly hard to do. However, the very fact that he uses swords when he's in such a monstrously powerful form (where he certainly doesn't need them, with all the brutish strength that thing shows) shows that he favors using them as weapons even when he doesn't need to.
WW: Yes, he does use some punches instead of his sword before the fight. Because he didn't want to kill them at the time. His line right after those attacks were, "Do not fear. I will not kill you. I merely have need of the power that dwells within you." He very specifically used non-lethal attacks. If he'd used his swords or magic like that, Link would have been dead, and he didn't want that yet.
TP: Conveniently within reach? He was impaled on it. Maybe Dante can casually pull a sword out of his torso and use it, but I've certainly never seen Ganondorf do that. Not to mention the fact that he was clearly too enraged and drunk on the Triforce's power to think clearly. And yes, he did use a couple of kicks and elbows - as supplements to his sword style. Not as a fighting style all its own.
Trident Dorf: The point of bringing him up wasn't to say he should specifically use his trident and fire bats, but to show that even in forms where his physical strength is vastly superior, he still prefers to use weapons and magic.
And again, I repeat that I respect the fact that his mains are used to his current moveset, but there's no way that it's canon. Ganondorf uses punches and kicks as supplements to his fighting at best, but primarily focuses on weapons and magic even when he could easily just step on Link and be done with it.
So you're saying that people who like current Ganondorf aren't posting here cause they don't care for P:M but their opinion on how Ganondorf should play should still be counted for P:M because . . .
This is an especially good point. Besides, if it's what you say and alot of the players not posting are competitive players who don't really care about new characters, giving Ganon's moveset to someone else, while having it play exactly the same isn't really a change to them. They'd just go from being Ganon mains to Black Shadow mains.
I think people are overreacting about the ramifications this change could potentially have.
So you're saying that people who like current Ganondorf aren't posting here cause they don't care for P:M but their opinion on how Ganondorf should play should still be counted for P:M because . . .
Sorry, but you're messing with my wording a little bit.
You said that people outside of PM wouldn't share my opinion, but they obviously would, given the history of Smash.
And yes, given straight up democracy, anyone who participates would have their opinion counted even if they don't care for the game. Everyone's vote counts, that's just how Democracy works.
There you go thinking your opinion counts more than someone else's.
Please, tell me more about all of the objectively good things this would bring, other than the fact that it would appease a select few people.
It would disrupt the meta, it would disrupt the fanbase, it's just all and all not a good idea.
This is an especially good point. Besides, if it's what you say and alot of the players not posting are competitive players who don't really care about new characters, giving Ganon's moveset to someone else, while having it play exactly the same isn't really a change to them. They'd just go from being Ganon mains to Black Shadow mains.
I think people are overreacting about the ramifications this change could potentially have.
You're twisting words. They may not care about new characters, but they care about their characters. Would Falco mains be fine with playing as James, would Cap mains be content with Blaziken? Wait, lets experiment, who's your main?
Howdy everyone~! Took a break from the forums for today to relax and play some Sonic. Letting myself cool down a bit to soak in the Ray discussion. Pretty damn impressed in seeing his tally add up like that for someone new on the board. Lets see more of that Ray support guys!!
You're twisting words. They may not care about new characters, but they care about their characters. Would Falco mains be fine with playing as James, would Cap mains be content with Blaziken? Wait, lets experiment, who's your main?
Well, the biggest alternatives to my mains are Louie/Alph and Dixie. As such, I'd love playing as them and am probably not a good example.
However, I see your point. In any case, I'm gonna suggest this discussion stop, because it's ultimately the PMBR's decision, and back and forths like this might go so far as to throw them off from the idea of new characters entirely, if it hasn't already.
I'm gonna suggest we get back to talking about good potential mega-clones.
Sorry, but you're messing with my wording a little bit.
You said that people outside of PM wouldn't share my opinion, but they obviously would, given the history of Smash.
And yes, given straight up democracy, anyone who participates would have their opinion counted even if they don't care for the game. Everyone's vote counts, that's just how Democracy works.
There you go thinking your opinion counts more than someone else's.
Please, tell me more about all of the objectively good things this would bring, other than the fact that it would appease a select few people.
It would disrupt the meta, it would disrupt the fanbase, it's just all and all not a good idea.
I'm not gonna answer for him, but I want to bring up 2 points in your argument.
1- "a select few"? There could be thousands of casual fans who can be drawn to PM if Ganon gets a canon moveset. It's a lot of hype just like adding Ridley to the game. Most Nintendo fans and LOZ fans were not and are not happy that Ganon is a clone so it's not just competitive players you should take into account.
2- "disrupt te meta"? Adding any extra character would change the meta game be it Issac or an original Ganon. And it would mostly disrupt the fan base of competitive PM players not for everyone who plays PM or Smash as a whole.
Anyway way I totally respect your opinion, and I think the best compromise would be like in my earlier posts, just to change Ganon (mostly) aesthetically to be more canon friendly.
Most were not happy that he was a clone, they didn't care that he didn't have a moveset based on his game appearance.
Anyone who did; failed to realize that he had like 3 moves in ocarina of time. I mean they could of drew inspiration from his pig beast form but that might of been a stretch.
I'm not gonna answer for him, but I want to bring up 2 points in your argument.
1- "a select few"? There could be thousands of casual fans who can be drawn to PM if Ganon gets a canon moveset. It's a lot of hype just like adding Ridley to the game. Most Nintendo fans and LOZ fans were not and are not happy that Ganon is a clone so it's not just competitive players you should take into account.
2- "disrupt te meta"? Adding any extra character would change the meta game be it Issac or an original Ganon. And it would mostly disrupt the fan base of competitive PM players not for everyone who plays PM or Smash as a whole.
Anyway way I totally respect your opinion, and I think the best compromise would be like in my earlier posts, just to change Ganon (mostly) aesthetically to be more canon friendly.
Those are fair points.
I would be perfectly okay with Ganon getting a few more canon moves, but like I said, this community is just so averse to change.
A complete overhaul like this is blasphemous for some people, and I really can't see it happening given all the ruckus it's causing, especially knowing that there are mods out there already trying to accomplish the same thing.
And yes, given straight up democracy, anyone who participates would have their opinion counted even if they don't care for the game. Everyone's vote counts, that's just how Democracy works.
But they didn't vote cause they don't care and it doesn't affect them. As an extension try this analogy: Imagine in an election there are two candidates you think one candidate is better than the other but you don't vote because you live in another country and it doesn't matter to you. The analogy goes nowhere because it doesn't matter just like it doesn't matter what the Ganondorf mains who don't play P:M think about how Ganondorf should be because they're not going to play the game where he would be changed.
I take great exception to these accusations you make but the only things I'm going to say is that firstly right here I was never arguing why the switch around would be a good idea but to the accuracy of the data that has been collected in this thread. Secondly that in the case that the data is correct which if you haven't figured it out already is what I believe then the people it would be "appeasing" are by far in the majority.
Really that you have the gall to falsely claim that I'm messing with your wording then immediately misrepresent me is pretty insulting and it more than reveals that you are grasping at straws. Generally it's pretty childish to declare the argument over and march off like you're the winner but I really don't want to deal with you any more so if you have anything else to say to me I'm going to ignore it unless it really raises a valid point on something.
Really that you have the gall to falsely claim that I'm messing with your wording then immediately misrepresent me is pretty insulting and it more than reveals that you are grasping at straws. Generally it's pretty childish to declare the argument over and march off like you're the winner but I really don't want to deal with you any more so if you have anything else to say to me I'm going to ignore it unless it really raises a valid point on something.
I didn't declare myself the winner, nor did I say the argument was over.
You said their opinions didn't count, even though in the scenario I brought up, they definitely would have counted.
You saying their opinions don't count kinda makes it sound like you feel your opinion is superior, and I wanted to point that out.
It seems that we are having continued miscomunications.
I didn't march off because I thought I won, I marched off to play Smash with some friends.
If you don't respond that's fine by me, but it's kind of hypocritcal of you to say that I marched off like a winner then proceed to immediately end the conversation on your terms only.
OoT: Keywords there: Magically imbued. The entire fight was magic-based, with one punch thrown in (and even that was magic). As for Beast Sword Ganon - yes, that would be fairly hard to do. However, the very fact that he uses swords when he's in such a monstrously powerful form (where he certainly doesn't need them, with all the brutish strength that thing shows) shows that he favors using them as weapons even when he doesn't need to
Ganon's attacks in Smash are magically imbued as well, so I don't see the argument there.
When he doesn't have access to a weapon, his isn't fazed by the switch to punches and kicks. That's the thing, his weapons are merely varied tools (aside from maybe the trident), unlike the Master Sword, Falchion, Ragnell, Sword of Seals, etc. The most implementable choice of sword would be the execution sword, but that is possibly the only weapon that Ganondorf actively despises, so it loses out on the "preference" argument a fair bit (I'd at least question the canon behind using it as the base for an entire moveset. When you can't even implement any of his swords into a well designed character, it makes sense to me that he would fall back on what he's always been able to depend on: his fists.
WW: Yes, he does use some punches instead of his sword before the fight. Because he didn't want to kill them at the time. His line right after those attacks were, "Do not fear. I will not kill you.I merely have need of the power that dwells within you." He very specifically used non-lethal attacks. If he'd used his swords or magic like that, Link would have been dead, and he didn't want that yet.
Fair enough. I guess my line of thinking was that we know he could kill without a weapon anyways. Just because nonlethal punches were used doesn't mean all of his punches would be nonlethal (also, I know cutscene vs. gameplay is a bit of a lame argument, but just how lethal were those swords exactly? Not very). Ganondorf is clearly capable of fighting without a weapon, so doing the same in Smash doesn't specifically go against canon.
TP: Conveniently within reach? He was impaled on it. Maybe Dante can casually pull a sword out of his torso and use it, but I've certainly never seen Ganondorf do that. Not to mention the fact that he was clearly too enraged and drunk on the Triforce's power to think clearly. And yes, he did use a couple of kicks and elbows - as supplements to his sword style. Not as a fighting style all its own.
I'm not so sure it's safe to assume that he couldn't have used the sword at the time. What was stopping him from pulling the blade out? It had absolutely zero power to actually kill him.
Part of what made Ganondorf's style impressive in any sense of the word was the combination with physical attacks. We already have the physical attacks on a character, why not just add a few swords, primarily for those "killing blow" sort of moves? I've expressed plenty of interest for this sort of change. Throwing in an entire sword set will only make Ganon play with a lot more zoning that would honestly feel more "off" to me than the aesthetic problems with an unarmed style.
Also, I guess what I like about Smash Ganon is that it reflects that when Ganondorf really gets a hit from the Triforce of Power, he doesn't bother with swords so much. He's a mixture of sheer fury and careful plotting that really sets him apart. Maybe that's not technically as canon on the surface, but it feels more canon to me as far as playstyle fitting the character goes that I'm not so sure could be recreated in quite the same way.
Trident Dorf: The point of bringing him up wasn't to say he should specifically use his trident and fire bats, but to show that even in forms where his physical strength is vastly superior, he still prefers to use weapons and magic.
Alright, I probably looked at that wrong in my head. Still, see my comments on OoT Ganon.
And again, I repeat that I respect the fact that his mains are used to his current moveset, but there's no way that it's canon. Ganondorf uses punches and kicks as supplements to his fighting at best, but primarily focuses on weapons and magic even when he could easily just step on Link and be done with it.
Firstly, it doesn't sound as if you're disrespecting my fondness for the playstyle, rest assured of that.
What I don't like about this is that you seem to be saying that just because an attack doesn't conform precisely to what Ganon would prefer in a hypothetical situation immediately makes it anti-canon to the point of requiring a whole new character to fix it. I don't even know if I agree about the preference thing entirely, at one turn, preference for unarmed attacks is discredited as unclear thinking, but it's just fine that Ganondorf wields the execution sword for practically no reason other than spite to ye gods or whatnot. If we're talking in general and not strictly in implementable material I suppose you'd have the advantage, though.
So, I think I would still say that the moves are, in fact, canon, even if the fighting paradigm isn't so much (seems to me this was the major discrepancy). This seems like something a few moves and adjustments could fix rather than a new character.
Also, if I ever get Dthrow chain grabbed to death as Roy by Black Shadow, just believe me when I say I don't like my chances for living peacefully after that.
So I went over to look at the tally again and I noticed a change with Toad. He's moved up! He's still just barely in the bad tier, though. Just like last tally, lol.
Sarcasm detector is not working I REPEAT, SARCASM DETECTOR IS DOWN!
And honestly, Black Shadowdorf would just piss me off and reminds me that despite some genuine good ideas, this topic should not be considered at all.
This topic shouldn't be considered at all because a majority of voters don't agree with you on one character? Okay. And people criticize the people wanting Ganon/BS as being entitled?
We are also once again beating the dead horse again, and as I've already stated, it's the same people. We're not adding anything here.
He's not too big ya dinguses, they can adjust his model to make it look right. He'd be fun as hell to play and Dark Samus is too cheesy to make a seperate character imo. (I love the character but I can't see her being too different from Samus to deserve a spot)
+1 Skull Kid
He's a really interesting character and would be an amazing addition. There's so much potential for his moveset and so much material to pull from as well.
+1 Black Shadow/Ganondorf
Black Shadow would be an easy addition because all he would need is a model and SFX swap. Worse comes to worse they can add in a Ganon alt costume if there's a lot of flak. As far as Ganon, a moveset based off of his N64 appearance would be awesome and there's a lot of material for him that they could use
+1 Waluigi
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Enough said. He'd be a goofy and interesting addition, there's a REALLY good PSA to pull from. He is divisive but hey you can't please everyone.
-1 Pichu
This would be the 8th Pokemon character, if you're gonna use one you should give it to a Pokemon that is a different typing than the rest (Garchomp pls). Thematically he's Pikachu, but younger. He'd just be a clone with self damage and possibly a gimmick to work with but it's just too hard to differentiate him from Pikachu imo. It'd be like adding Demise to the roster, he's not Ganon technically but he occupies the same design space.
The only things Skull Kid ever actually did onscreen was steal Link's ocarina, steal Link's horse, turn Link into a Deku Scrub, smack his behind in Link's general direction, and make the moon fall. Not exactly enough to make a compelling moveset out of.
The only things Skull Kid ever actually did onscreen was steal Link's ocarina, steal Link's horse, turn Link into a Deku Scrub, smack his behind in Link's general direction, and make the moon fall. Not exactly enough to make a compelling moveset out of.
Firstly, I'll note that you didn't mention his ability to hover. Second, you're not taking into account the Skull Kids from Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess. Like Link, Skull Kid would be a composite character. The focus would be Majora's Mask, but he would also borrow from the others. Further, there are also the various things he was known to do that weren't actually shown, such as breaking the Great Fairies and cursing Kafei. Because the focus would be Majora's Mask, the mask itself could also have some part in whatever moveset is come up with. Finally, not having enough things to make a moveset from is no obstacle, as seen from characters like Captain Falcon.
The only things Skull Kid ever actually did onscreen was steal Link's ocarina, steal Link's horse, turn Link into a Deku Scrub, smack his behind in Link's general direction, and make the moon fall. Not exactly enough to make a compelling moveset out of.
He can also: float, teleport, use dark magic, and with Majora's Mask he has all of the abilities of Majora's Wrath and Incarnation. You can pull any of the abilities from those boss fights as well.
The only things Skull Kid ever actually did onscreen was steal Link's ocarina, steal Link's horse, turn Link into a Deku Scrub, smack his behind in Link's general direction, and make the moon fall. Not exactly enough to make a compelling moveset out of.
You would actually be controlling Majora's Mask which puppeteers Skull Kid to move around the stage. While it appears you're controlling Skull Kid, he is completely under Majora's control. Thus, the character is capable of all things Skull Kid AND Majora.
Edit: WOW, double ninja tag-team rebuttal in favor of Skull Kid. Go team! Literally within seconds three of us explain why Skull Kid is a must. We gotta rally this ****, he's gotta be made!
Since we're talking about Skull Kid, I'd like to say that my main reason for supporting SK is because he was confirmed as a non-fighter in Sm4sh, so this would be his only shot at being playable in Smash for a long while
Since we're talking about Skull Kid, I'd like to say that my main reason for supporting SK is because he was confirmed as a non-fighter in Sm4sh, so this would be his only shot at being playable in Smash for a long while
I can't say that Skull Kid would be my top pick for another Zelda character (I would probably take Tetra instead since she's played important roles in multiple games), but I'm sure the PMBR would do a great job with him and I'd be happy for his fans.
Skull Kid: I only gave him a half-vote before. I think his potential is so great that no matter what the PMBR does with him, they'll deliver a fantastic character.
Ridley: Self-explanatory
+1/2:
Lyn
Ray
K. Rool
Downvote:
Black Shadow/Ganondorf: I just realized that despite my opposition to the idea, I had never downvoted it. Here goes. Like many have said it, I like Ganon the way he is and feel as though his moveset makes sense to his character. I do not want to play as BS with Gdorf's moveset. I'd rather they change some moves to better reflect canon if that's the issue.
Ridley: I think it would be interesting to see a character that relies solely on aerials, and who better than a flying space dragon? It would make sense to clone him off Charizard, with all his ground moves sending the opponent in the air. Replace neutral B with fireballs and increase the range of most moves, with a few tweaks here and there, and I think it would be enough. And even though I don't really care about franchise representation, it cant be denied that only 2 reps from Metroid (who are essentially the same character) is underwhelming.
I'll add more later, I can't really think of another character who I would absolutely love to see at this point.
+1/2 Vote:
Lyn: Another sword user is always a plus in my book. Don't really understand what all the fuss is about. And plus, it's a damn katana!
K. Rool: While I have trouble seeing who he can be based off, he's definitely someone who is bound to be very interesting if the PMBR gave him a shot.
Skull Kid: The ideas and movesets suggested for him by people here have managed to convince me that he could be a worthy addition to the roster. It would be very cool to have a "crazy" character.
As for downvotes, seeing as all of my choices are already ranking pretty low, I don't want to stomp them further down the ground.
I have some ideas for Ridley and other characters but I will post them later, I have an exam to study...
The Skull Kids from Ocarina of Time do two things; toot away on flutes and shoot you with blowdarts. Something tells me that when people think of a character whose primary offensive abilities would come from a horrifying and magical evil mask, shooting little darts at you is not exactly what they have in mind. And the Twilight Princess Skull Kid just summons puppets - that's it.
He can also: float, teleport, use dark magic, and with Majora's Mask he has all of the abilities of Majora's Wrath and Incarnation. You can pull any of the abilities from those boss fights as well.
You would actually be controlling Majora's Mask which puppeteers Skull Kid to move around the stage. While it appears you're controlling Skull Kid, he is completely under Majora's control. Thus, the character is capable of all things Skull Kid AND Majora.
So that gives us dancing, nonspecific projectiles, and whip-arms to work with. Still not exactly enough to make a compelling moveset worth putting the work into.
A new character in the game, considering the amount of work that has to go into it, should bring something to the table that makes the character interesting and unique from a gameplay sense - the primary draw of a character should be what they can do, as opposed to who they are.
That being said, what could Skull Kid do that would be interesting and different enough to warrant him being playable? Whose moveset would you base him off of, and what would you do to make it unique?
I voted +1 for skull kid initially pretty much cause I wanted to see a new Zelda rep but I've begun to think that he wouldn't be all that fun to play and If it's a Zelda rep I'd rather see Tetra anyway. Also when I was giving my initial votes I wanted to vote Ray but I saw he wasn't in the first post so I didn't bother because I felt he wasn't wanted at all. Since that's changed I did give him a 1/2 vote but I think I'd like to actually Swap my votes for these two around so Ray is +1 and Skull Kid is +1/2 as it does more accurately reflect how I feel.
After rewatching the Majora's Mask-Wrath fight I've already come out with a general idea for him. So we can split the character into two personalities, his normals will be done by the Skull Kid, and his specials and grabs will be done by Majora.
Neutral Special: The Skull Kid will screech and cause a shock wave around him, dealing a decent amount of damage and knocking enemies away. It will have a "rest" component where enemies touching Skull Kid during screech will be stunned similar to Mewtwo's Down B.
Side Special: (Taken from Majora's Wrath) - Tentacles shoot from the mask and grab the first person in a line horizontal from the Skull Kid. Once grabbing an opponent he can throw forward or back. The forward throw will slam the enemy down and bounce them away from Skull Kid. The back throw will throw them towards the Skull Kid in an arc. If used from the air the Skull Kid will grapple towards the first enemy he hits. This can grapple similar to Samus' Side B
I'll edit this post in a bit. I'll be driving home from work.
An ability that's already notably used by Peach and Mewtwo. Boring.
The Skull Kids from Ocarina of Time do two things; toot away on flutes and shoot you with blowdarts. Something tells me that when people think of a character whose primary offensive abilities would come from a horrifying and magical evil mask, shooting little darts at you is not exactly what they have in mind. And the Twilight Princess Skull Kid just summons puppets - that's it.
Just thought I'd point out that you forgot the TP Skull Kid's teleportation ability, and that there are plenty of ways the puppets could be implemented.
The point was that PMBR aren't limited to what he is shown doing, as he clearly has more abilities. Those specific ones naturally wouldn't be implementable, but the fact that he can use such magic is enough to justify a number of generic magical attacks. It's not like Zelda ever used a single one of her attacks in the games. But we know that she has powerful magic. That alone was enough to construct an entire moveset.
So that gives us dancing, nonspecific projectiles, and whip-arms to work with. Still not exactly enough to make a compelling moveset worth putting the work into.
A new character in the game, considering the amount of work that has to go into it, should bring something to the table that makes the character interesting and unique from a gameplay sense - the primary draw of a character should be what they can do, as opposed to who they are.
And again, not having enough moves to fill an entire moveset is no obstacle. Many, many characters have had entirely made up moves added to them. It is literally a non-issue. Captain Falcon, Ness, Lucas, Ice Climbers, ROB, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Pit, Fox, Falco, Wolf - I'm not positive on some of them, but I'm fairly sure these are all characters that have at least one move completely made up. Of them, Captain Falcon, Ness, Lucas, Ice Climbers, ROB, Zelda, Sheik, and (at the time) Pit are almost entirely made from scratch.
That being said, what could Skull Kid do that would be interesting and different enough to warrant him being playable? Whose moveset would you base him off of, and what would you do to make it unique?
It's hard to say which single character I would use. I sort of see him as a mix of the psychic characters (Ness, Lucas, Mewtwo). In the games, he rarely - if ever - uses physical attacks, so I imagine that he would be physically weak with more powerful magic. In Majora's Mask, he's always floating, so I imagine he'd be like Mewtwo in that his walking/running animations would have him hovering above the ground rather than actually touching it. He may or may not be hovering in his idle pose. I do think he could benefit from being a bit less floaty in the air than Mewtwo. Perhaps a bit faster and heavier, maybe somewhere between Ness and Lucas in speed and weight.
Thinking of his moves from the games, in OoT and TP, he mostly uses items and in MM, he uses magic. He has his blow darts from OoT, though I'm not sure if he can use them since he would be wearing the mask, unless he pushes it up out of his face before he uses it.
In TP, he has his instrument that summons those puppets, though I doubt that would be very feasible. He also has that torch / lantern of his. Perhaps he could use that in a couple of attacks and it could deal some fire damage. Maybe his Smash attacks could have his torch spit fire out of it? I could imagine his Down Smash being him slamming the torch into the ground and it spewing fire from both sides. He also has a teleport ability in TP, so that would be a good recovery.
Alternately, he could borrow Pit's original vBrawl recovery since he flies so much in MM. The Mask glows and gives him free flight for a limited time. He also has that scream of his. I could imagine that being a chargeable, radial attack (Like DK's Final Smash) that stuns anything in its range, with the range and volume of the scream growing the longer it's charged. Would that require an article? I'm not sure.
It's also possible that he could borrow abilities from the battle with Majora itself from the last battle. Perhaps his grab can be a tether using the tentacles from the Majora's Wrath portion. They could grow out of the Mask and grab things.
For his entrance, I would have him borrow his animation from Link or Pit, where he comes down in a beam of light. I would change it so that he's limp and hanging from the Mask, though, then comes to life as he touches the ground.
What do you think? Does any of this sound about right, or did I just completely miss the mark?
EDIT: Say, are models used in entrance animations (like Mario's Warp Pipe) articles?
Imagine a Down Smash where he toots his flute and a puppet appears and attacks from above. The longer the smash is held, the further the distance of the puppet's spawn. This would promote ranged fighting on Skull Kid's behalf.
He could use the same flute to fire Sheik-like projectile needles with his neutral B.
I foresee Skull Kid running around frantically, fast and medium-heavy with traction like Diddy, but having the option to levitate (a la Mewtwo) by either holding a jump or Up Special.
I'd imagine his stature to be like Diddy Kong actually. Slouched, about the same height (maybe slightly taller). Diddy has a number of articles that could be transformed. Pop gun, peanut, banana, and jetpack. The jetpack dynamism could lend itself well to the puppetry. Come to think of it, the banana positioning brings to mind my old idea to control Majora and leave Skull Kid motionless on stage. I wonder...
I'm also imagining a taunt reflecting Link's Navi taunt wherein Skull Kid releases Tatl and Tael.
Oh, wow, that's a much more realistic way of using the puppets than what I had in mind. I had the idea that they'd be his Down B and would follow him around like Nana, but with limited stamina instead of needing to be KOd.
I hadn't even thought about Diddy, but that's a really good base. He's about the weight and speed I had in mind. Hmm, maybe he could float for his walking animation and run on the ground for his dash animation. I could see him running while bent forward with his arms behind him like Fox does. He could have Mewtwo's hover and teleport mechanics to represent his floating and teleporting abilities.
I don't think the banana would work properly. I don't think it's an article, it just spawns the normal banana item. If it was an article, though.... hmm, maybe someone who knows more could clarify.
These were the taunts I thought up when brainstorming last night:
Taunt 1 - Tatl and Tael fly around him a moment, then hide in his hat.
Taunt 2 - He takes out the Ocarina, blows it a sec, then laughs and puts it away.
Taunt 3 - He floats in midair with his arms crossed while laughing. (Like the scene where he transforms Link into Deku Link)
So we're on the same wavelength with Tatl and Tael, at least
Ninja Edit:
Hmm, I think that's too much emphasis on the tentacles. They're a stretch (no pun intended) as it is, really, since he doesn't really have them in this form, so I wouldn't want them to be very prominent.
Inspired by that Ghost Rider video, I agree with your tentacle sentiment: Skull Kid could totally use the Majora tentacles as a tether/grab. I think his running animation should be based on his TP appearance, how he pants while fleeing through the Sacred Grove. Skull Kid in TP is most likely the same entity as the one from MM and OoT (the one you give the Skull Mask to). They exist in the same Timeline, he was relinquished by Majora's Mask towards the end of the game, the tree stump drawing suggests he returned to Hyrule, and his face resembles the moon, like he was permanently changed by his use of Majora's Mask (like what The One Ring does to Bilbo). As such, this Skull Kid's moveset must be based on his OoT, MM, and TP appearances due to being the same character and not a reincarnation thereof.
In TP, Skull Kid does this gentle spin—disappearing act. Maybe this could be his Down Special. He spins into vanishing and warps to a controlled distance away. Because it can serve as a second recovery option, it requires a short activation period covering his spinning animation. This leaves him vulnerable for a moment before disappearing. While he is spinning, you crank the analog stick in the direction and for the duration (covering a set distance) that you want to warp him. It would have about twice as far a warp range as Mewtwo, but with the disadvantage of not being immediate. As such, if Skull Kid is falling from the stage, this option could kill him. Or to further limit it, the warp length is halved when performed in the air. OR, like a Nana-less Popo, he spins upwards a notch, but barely enough to recover. It could function instead like a directional air-dodge with ledge-grabbing properties.
My Majora/Skull Kid split moveset idea from earlier this month was inspired by this moment in the game:
Seen here, Majora finally reveals its sentient nature after casting Skull Kid off, leaving him limp and unconscious. This portrays the puppeteer potential of the moveset, where Majora's Mask can separate itself from its host and move freely around the environment. Skull Kid being its anchor though, is left vulnerable and capable of defeat, just as a character can be knocked unconscious and continuously attacked while lying on the ground until knocked off stage. If done so, Majora's Mask would vanish like Nana does in Popo's defeat and the two would respawn rejoined.
I agree with all of this. This almost fully matches up with my view of the character. The spin-disappear is actually the teleport I was talking about, so if he gets Mewtwo's Hover, then it could serve as his Up Special. I like the way you've described it. It sets it apart from other teleports. I would go with the shortened air distance, but only if he doesn't fall while using it.
So, this is what I have in my list so far. I may have added a couple of other things that I haven't mentioned yet.
Skull Kid Movement
Entrance - Cloned from Link's or Pit's, he floats down looking like a lifeless doll, coming to life when he hits the ground. The beam of light could be dark?
Idle - He stands while looking around and occasionally shaking his head / mask back and forth.
Walk - He hovers Mewtwo style.
Run - Skull Kid dashes on the ground, in the style of TP Skull Kid.
Jumps - Faster, less floaty version of Mewtwo's jumps. He could also gain Mewtwo's ability to Hover.
Standard Attacks
Jab - Borrowed from Lucas, with Darkness instead of PSI.
F tilt - Hits with his lantern from Twilight Princess, dealing a small bit of fire damage,
Up Tilt -
Down Tilt -
N Air -
F Air -
B Air -
D Air -
U Air -
Smash Attacks
F Smash -
U Smash - Skull Kid uses his flute and summons puppets that attack from the ground.
D Smash -
1. Skull Kid slams his TP lantern on the ground, with fire spewing out of it from all sides.
OR
2. Skull Kid toots his flute and summons a Puppet to attack.
Special Attacks
Neutral B - Blow Dart - Skull Kid uses his blow darts from Ocarina of Time. Shoots a dart forward when on the ground, and at a downward angle when in the air, like Sheik's needles. They could potentially work like Snake's Tranq Gun to put enemies to sleep.
Side B - Majora's Wrath - Majora uses its tentacles to whip the opponent while drawing them closer in. Could work in a number of different ways, perhaps as a combo type move similar to Dancing Blade or Double-Edge Dance.
Down B - Skull Kid does his signature scream, which sends out a radial wave similar to Tabuu's Off Waves or DK's Final Smash. It's chargeable on the ground, with the distance and volume growing the larger it charges. In the air, it simply is used without any charging. It deals very little damage and knock back, but has a moderately long stunning effect like Deku Nuts or broken shields against anything it hits. If it hits someone in the air, it'll cause them to fall. It's good for escaping combos and intercepting recoveries.
Up B -
1. Cloned from Pit's original Up B, Skull Kid gains the ability to fly freely for a short time.
OR
2. Teleport - Animation taken from TP.
Final Smash - The Moon comes crashing down. Modified PK Starstorm?
Grab
Grab - Mask tentacles tether/grab
Pummel - Squeezes with the tentacles
U Throw - Tosses them into the air, setting up for combos
D Throw - Slams them on the ground
F Throw - Spins once and throws them back
B Throw - Spins once and throws them back
Taunt 1 - Tatl and Tael fly around him a moment, then hide in his hat.
Taunt 2 - He takes out the Ocarina, blows it a sec, then laughs and puts it away.
Taunt 3 - He floats in midair with his arms crossed while laughing.
And that was only from a single page of discussion. If someone actually tried, they could easily fill in the blanks with attacks. Before you say anything about him having nothing else to put there, I'll just remind you that all of those blanks were made up attacks for Zelda as well. You could put pretty much anything there.
Just thought I'd point out that you forgot the TP Skull Kid's teleportation ability, and that there are plenty of ways the puppets could be implemented.
The point was that PMBR aren't limited to what he is shown doing, as he clearly has more abilities. Those specific ones naturally wouldn't be implementable, but the fact that he can use such magic is enough to justify a number of generic magical attacks. It's not like Zelda ever used a single one of her attacks in the games. But we know that she has powerful magic. That alone was enough to construct an entire moveset.
I notice you didn't address my last point. That's more than enough to work with to create a compelling moveset if you bother to use your imagination.
And again, not having enough moves to fill an entire moveset is no obstacle. Many, many characters have had entirely made up moves added to them. It is literally a non-issue. Captain Falcon, Ness, Lucas, Ice Climbers, ROB, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Pit, Fox, Falco, Wolf - I'm not positive on some of them, but I'm fairly sure these are all characters that have at least one move completely made up. Of them, Captain Falcon, Ness, Lucas, Ice Climbers, ROB, Zelda, Sheik, and (at the time) Pit are almost entirely made from scratch.
This has already been discussed numerous times in this thread. I'll look for the posts and quote them.
And that was only from a single page of discussion. If someone actually tried, they could easily fill in the blanks with attacks. Before you say anything about him having nothing else to put there, I'll just remind you that all of those blanks were made up attacks for Zelda as well. You could put pretty much anything there.
An ability that's already notably used by Peach and Mewtwo. Boring.
The Skull Kids from Ocarina of Time do two things; toot away on flutes and shoot you with blowdarts. Something tells me that when people think of a character whose primary offensive abilities would come from a horrifying and magical evil mask, shooting little darts at you is not exactly what they have in mind. And the Twilight Princess Skull Kid just summons puppets - that's it.
And... how would these things actually translate to moves in the game?
So that gives us dancing, nonspecific projectiles, and whip-arms to work with. Still not exactly enough to make a compelling moveset worth putting the work into.
A new character in the game, considering the amount of work that has to go into it, should bring something to the table that makes the character interesting and unique from a gameplay sense - the primary draw of a character should be what they can do, as opposed to who they are.
That being said, what could Skull Kid do that would be interesting and different enough to warrant him being playable? Whose moveset would you base him off of, and what would you do to make it unique?
Butting in here. Shin made a completely logical and compelling argument. There is one thing he has said that you literally can NOT argue against and nothing you've said has been enough to be considered a good counter argument against it thus far.
Finally, not having enough things to make a moveset from is no obstacle, as seen from characters like Captain Falcon.
This statement is enough to slay the entire discussion as a whole. When developing a character, it matters not what little grounds you have to work from. You pull from the character's personality and match it with things compatible to that said personality. For example, a moveset suggestion was made where Skull Kid could use Capoeira. This fighting style aligns well with Skull Kid's wild and unpredictable personality. It isn't much of a stretch to make him fight in said manner. A lot of characters in Smash had little to no solid inspiration to go on for their movesets and still came out successful. Saying he has no moves to draw from his current state is like saying Star Fox, F-Zero, and a few select other franchise's characters, should not have been considered for the Smash franchise to begin with. Your argument does not hold water.
I voted +1 for skull kid initially pretty much cause I wanted to see a new Zelda rep but I've begun to think that he wouldn't be all that fun to play and If it's a Zelda rep I'd rather see Tetra anyway. Also when I was giving my initial votes I wanted to vote Ray but I saw he wasn't in the first post so I didn't bother because I felt he wasn't wanted at all. Since that's changed I did give him a 1/2 vote but I think I'd like to actually Swap my votes for these two around so Ray is +1 and Skull Kid is +1/2 as it does more accurately reflect how I feel.
More of this please. Ray is one heck of a unique character that would very easily be able to barrow animations from pretty much anyone that fits his frame, while providing a fresh playstyle to the table. As far as newly repped franchise characters are concerned, Issac and Ray are both absolute must haves for P:M.
This statement is enough to slay the entire discussion as a whole. When developing a character, it matters not what little grounds you have to work from. You pull from the character's personality and match it with things compatible to that said personality. For example, a moveset suggestion was made where Skull Kid could use Capoeira. This fighting style aligns well with Skull Kid's wild and unpredictable personality. It isn't much of a stretch to make him fight in said manner. A lot of characters in Smash had little to no solid inspiration to go on for their movesets and still came out successful. Saying he has no moves to draw from his current state is like saying Star Fox, F-Zero, and a few select other franchise's characters, should not have been considered for the Smash franchise to begin with. Your argument does not hold water.
I love the way you worded that paragraph. In fact, that paragraph alone is enough of a reason to go back and spoiler my entire post so that no one else has to be bothered to read it all.
Incidentally, I'm not sure if I ever half-voted Ray, but he's really growing on me. I'd like to +1/2 him if I haven't already.
List of possible Clone Engine candidates based on ease of creation:
- Dark Samus
- Ninten
- Shadow (If he remains extremely similar to Sonic, meaning no projectiles like guns or chaos magic)
- Knuckles
- Pichu (Based on Roy's implementation, I'm positive her workload would be a little more then people are estimating)
- Telda - Micaiah (Because of her using Tomes, I've decided that her animations would most likely have to deviate some from Zelda's)
- Claus/Masked Man
- Liquid Snake (Can much more closely resemble Snake, animation wise compared to Sami/Andy. Would still require a pretty elaborate model to be made though)
- Bowser Jr. (hasn't moved because of peoples want to give him the paint stick, which would require more than just giving him Bowser's moveset, but could be a tier lower if they decided to do just that) - Hector - Sami/Andy (Their animations would probably have to be tweaked more so than Liquid due to their different body sizes and proportions)
- Tetra (It depends on how they'd want to make this character. She could be one rank higher if she had an extremely similar moveset like Tink or Shiek, but I don't see that happening)
- Lip (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Could possibly play more like Lucas or Ness to lessen the workload)
- Lyn (She could be more of a challenge if they decide to incorporate her iaido style swordplay. Even if they make the model from scratch, they have a decent base to follow)
- Samurai Goroh (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Even if they make the model from scratch, they have a decent base to follow)
- Waluigi (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Even if they make the model from scratch, they have a decent base to follow) - Tails (Flight animations and balancing a speedy character who can possibly float cancel, definitely a challenge)
- Black Shadow/Ganondorf (Even though they'd just have to create a model for Black Shadow, creating Dorfs sword moveset would be a challenge. This also implies that they are working on two characters at once, which is a pain)
- Krystal (First ever staff user, would be a challenge since they have no animations to base hers off of)
- Toad (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Just porting him over Mario would look extremely awkward, as his arms are tiny and all of the punching moves would be off because of this. Would require a lot of new animations then people are estimating)
- Tom Nook (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Animations would have to be made from scratch, but aren't as difficult as some of the higher tiers)
- Kamek (Would require a creative moveset, could be a challenge. Animations would have to be made from scratch, but aren't as difficult as some of the higher tiers)
- Saki (Possibly much more of a challenge, but could potentially resemble Pit more so than I originally thought) - Dixie (The hair would be quite a challenge, especially involving grabs and pummels. Animating it wouldn't be easy either)
- Skull Kid (Would require a creative moveset, and his animations could potentially be extremely difficult. They could just make them look bat**** crazy though and it would work for the character)
- Ridley (Animating winged character's is never easy, and creating a suitable model with fluid animations would be a challenge. The workload could be a little less if they try to make him resemble Charizard as closely as possible, but the same could be said about the opposite) - Mach Rider (Possible projectiles, bike riding, and whip/tethers would be a challenge)
- Sukapon (Even if the model would be simple, creating such a unique moveset would be a challenge. Also, unorthodox hit-boxes and has no real base to work from. All animations would be made from scratch, even if they base some of his moves off of other characters)
- Pokemon Trainer/Red (Would require a very creative moveset, and even though balancing isn't being brought up as much, a character who can possibly throw out random pokemon via pokeballs would be a nightmare. Because of people's varying concepts, wanting pokemon to appear for certain attacks, among other things, animating all of this could be extremely challenging)
- Paper Mario (Since people seem to want his moveset have his party members come in to help him, I've decided to place him here because of all the extra modeling work that would require or if that's even possible to begin with, he's basically in the same boat as Pokemon Trainer/Red)
- Boo (A character that is always floating... I expect this would be extremely challenging)
- King K. Rool (With his only possible base being DDD, and even that is far stretched, he would be extremely challenging)
- Issac (Moveset would require a lot of creativity, his psyenergy would be a challenge) - Pulse & Minun (See Ice Climbers)
And again, not having enough moves to fill an entire moveset is no obstacle. Many, many characters have had entirely made up moves added to them. It is literally a non-issue. Captain Falcon, Ness, Lucas, Ice Climbers, ROB, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Pit, Fox, Falco, Wolf - I'm not positive on some of them, but I'm fairly sure these are all characters that have at least one move completely made up.
You're missing the point - I'm not saying it's impossible to create a moveset entirely from scratch for Skull Kid, I'm saying it's probably not possible to create a moveset for him from scratch that isn't overly similar to another existing character's moveset, to the point where making him playable would more or less be a waste of time. Everything that he does that you and other posters have listed is something that other characters already have - yes, Zelda's normal attacks are all based on generic magical abilities, but we don't need another Zelda, we already have Zelda.
You could clone Skull Kid from Zelda and give him generic magic powers, you could clone Skull Kid from Zero Suit Samus and give him some tentacle nonsense, etc. - my question is why would you do any of these things when we already have the characters/moves that have been suggested?
Think of it this way - Mewtwo is a clone of Lucario (you know what I mean), and Roy is a clone of Marth. But if we were to pretend for a moment that Roy wasn't a character in Melee and that, right now, we were arguing about whether or not Roy should be included as a character in Project M who is basically "Marth, but with fire" - could you really, in good conscience, say that that would be something worth pouring hundreds of hours of work into?
I'm not saying that Skull Kid should never be playable and that everyone is wrong - only that the ideas put forth in the thread so far are not really enough to justify putting him in.
When developing a character, it matters not what little grounds you have to work from. You pull from the character's personality and match it with things compatible to that said personality.
For example, a moveset suggestion was made where Skull Kid could use Capoeira. This fighting style aligns well with Skull Kid's wild and unpredictable personality.
A lot of characters in Smash had little to no solid inspiration to go on for their movesets and still came out successful. Saying he has no moves to draw from his current state is like saying Star Fox, F-Zero, and a few select other franchise's characters, should not have been considered for the Smash franchise to begin with.
Again, I'm not saying he has nothing to draw from, I'm saying that what he does have to draw from isn't enough to give him a moveset that isn't overly similar to the movesets of characters that already exist. My argument isn't that you couldn't make a moveset for him, it's that you couldn't make one that was interesting, and that, as such, it's unlikely to be worth the time and effort required to make it a reality.
I'll give you Peach, but none of those other characters have movesets that I'd say were dictated by their "personality" - ROB's moveset is mostly based around the fact that he's a robot, and Mr. Game & Watch's moveset is made entirely of references to various Game & Watch games. For Zero Suit Samus, I wouldn't say that "has a whip" is a personality quirk, nor would I say the same about Zelda's ability to use magic.
Perhaps most notably, how can you say that Fox and Falco have movesets - near identical, visually, mind you - based on their personalities when their personalities aren't the same at all?
Cool, someone brought up my Difficulty Tier List again which I was just planning on updating since we've gotten a couple more characters to add to the list (Looking at you Ray, who I'll happily half vote when I get to updating my votes as well).
It'll most likely be up in a couple days though, and in this thread, that will probably be about 10 pages away xD
