New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Paradoxium]

Oh man, you're so clever and witty. Nothing like a little mysogyny to ensure everyone respects your opinions and thinks you're the cool guy you are. Also grammar is you're friend

Hey man don't get all sarcastic on me, your the one who started acting like a prick first

 

[Bleck]

Also grammar is you're friend

Wow.

 

[trojanpooh]

Hey man don't get all sarcastic on me, your the one who started acting like a prick first

Yup, I'm totally bitter. I'm just a bitter snarky prick who gets off in whatever the hell ewe think I'm doing hear. At least I still know basic English though, so I guess my life can't bee that ruff.

Wow.

That was the joke.

 

[Bleck]

That was the joke.

Sure it was.

 

[trojanpooh]

Sure it was.

He got his 'yours' wrong a 2nd time and in response I spelled tons of crap wrong in another post. Believe what you will, but my spelling mistake was very much intentional. I suppose it would have been more obvious if I used 'yore' instead of 'you're'.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

*sees how thread continues to be intense*

I guess you really CAN'T stop a flame war with reprimanding so **** it.

The flame will pop any unpopped kernels at least.

 

[Bleck]

He got his 'yours' wrong a 2nd time and in response I spelled tons of crap wrong in another post.

Uh huh.

 

[Paradoxium]

double post whats good

 

[trojanpooh]

This is stupid. Everyone who's posting right now is stupid. I'm gonna bounce now until the pyros leave because I'm in no ways making it any better.

 

[Paradoxium]

Yup, I'm totally bitter. I'm just a bitter snarky prick who gets off in whatever the hell ewe think I'm doing hear. At least I still know basic English though, so I guess my life can't bee that ruff..

Lol, you get so defensive and feminine when people talk bad about pichu, for Christ sake this game doesn't even need anymore characters. And when i made that first message about Pichu i hoped to God you wouldn't be the one to respond because you act like such a prick about it

This is stupid. Everyone who's posting right now is stupid. I'm gonna bounce now until the pyros leave because I'm in no ways making it any better.

And now let the intelligent conversations continue.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I hope Solbliminal posts another Ray update soon. He's growing on me and Solbliminal's been making a good case for him.

EDIT: And now I have all this leftover popcorn, wth do I do with it guys?

 

[Paradoxium]

I hope Solbliminal posts another Ray update soon. He's growing on me and Solbliminal's been making a good case for him.

EDIT: And now I have all this leftover popcorn, wth do I do with it guys?

What game is Ray from, I always thought his trophy was awesome

 

[Bleck]

Ray is from the Custom Robo series.

 

[arcticfox8]

Lol, you get so defensive and feminine when people talk bad about pichu, for Christ sake this game doesn't even need anymore characters. And when i made that first message about Pichu i hoped to God you wouldn't be the one to respond because you act like such a prick about it

The misogyny is strong in this one

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

What game is Ray from, I always thought his trophy was awesome

Ray is from the Custom Robo series.

What he said.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

You can guys be just as bad as the smash 4 prediction threads.

Then again.... there's ******** in every smash thread. Examples: 64- mod is locking all of our threads waaa. Melee- I don't like this competitive smasher nya nya. Brawl- **** metaknight, and wavedashing. Smash 4- Impa Impa Impa, this character is getting in AHHHH don't argue with me I have evidence! (which is basically assumptions). PM- Pichu Pichu, Ganondorf Ganondorf. >_>

Come on guys, if this keeps up i'll have no safe thread to go to.......

 

[.fube]

+1 for:
Paper Mario - Yes! The paper mario games are awesome, popular, and unique. Plus, he could be primarily a Game and Watch clone so he would not be too hard to implement. I don't understand why more people are not voting for this one!
Tom Nook - I am a bit hesitant because he would be hard to implement, but he gets my vote regardless because some animal crossing representation would be cool.
Ganondorf/Black Shadow - This one is sort of bitter-sweet since I am a Ganon main, but black shadow is badass and Ganon's moveset is perfect for him.

 

[Shin F.]

Spoiler: @Bleck

This is a faith-based argument - you're essentially saying that it's possible to make a moveset that uses these things that is unique, or at least, not negatively comparable to another character's, and I'm not disagreeing.

Very well, if you're not disagreeing on that point then we don't need to argue on that anymore.

What I'm saying is that it'd probably not worth the effort that the team would have to put forward if that turned out to not be the case.

I think that going ahead with Skull Kid as a project would require a really solid and interesting kit envisioned from the get go - which is not what we have here. What we have here is the nebulous insistence that "something" could be done, sprinkled occasionally with suggestions of cloned bits of other characters.

Firstly, the effort that PMBR deems worth it for a character is up to them, so it's pointless for you or I to speculate on that.

To the next point, what we have here is a general idea of the different directions and styles he could take. Assuming he is chosen (and this applies to every character), there is very little chance that any ideas here will end up in the final build exactly as they are written. If PMBR chooses a character, it won't be because we have hammered out a perfect moveset, it will be because we've come up with a strong, feasible general idea which they can then flesh out in their own way. To that end, writing out exact movesets (outside of ideas for specials and Final Smashes) is pointless, as PMBR would likely come up with their own normal attacks. Anything further by us is purely for the point of fun.

Giving a character a mix of powerful anti-approach options and long ranged normals doesn't sound like a good mix, to me.

Can you really not tell that an example is just that: an example? The point wasn't, "OH! We should totally mix those!" It was, "You do realize that we can mix and match from many movesets, right? We aren't limited to just one!"

I didn't ask for a list of characters with made up moves not specifically from the games they were from, I asked for a list of characters with moves based on their personalities.

Fair enough, but separate from the rest of the argument, I'd like to ask you this: Would you say that their abilities and universe are a big part of what makes a character what they are, and therefore, are irrevocably linked with their personality?

And you're overestimating your imagination by assuming that a character could have generic normal attacks that aren't in some way similar to the attacks of the 41 characters we already have.

Hardly. Firstly, many characters in Project M share similar attacks with very different properties, such as Fox and Falco, so it's not as varied as you're implying there. Next, there are a large number of styles and forms of attack (especially normal types of attack) that aren't present in Smash, and even more possibilities for completely new made up styles. There is literally no limit to the forms of attack that could be used. Take Wii Fit Trainer in Smash 4. It's unconventional, it's new, it's unique. It's completely possible to come up with styles like that. However, even if PMBR don't want to bother with creating whole new moves, it's already been mentioned that Skull Kid could have a capoeira style. That alone amounts a full set of possibilities for normal attacks that no other character uses.

There's a reason Sakurai had said he wanted to focus more on adding new ways to play the game rather than a large number of new characters in Smash 4 - it's because with the number of characters that already exist, it's rapidly approaching a point where characters play very similarly to at least some others (at least, when we're talking about normal attacks).

You know, what you just said is actually an argument against adding any more original Clone Engine characters at all. Incidentally, you got Sakurai's reasoning wrong. The reason he's doing that is for balance. He said that it becomes harder to balance characters with a roster that size. It has nothing to do with the number of unique attacks could be available.

Keep in mind, here, that you're arguing for the existence of something - it's up to you to prove that these things do, or at least can, exist. If you think that there are interesting ideas for how Skull Kid - or any other character, for that matter! - can be a playable character, then it falls to you to demonstrate how. Saying that I 'lack imagination' doesn't implicitly prove that Skull Kid can be interesting.

Yes, I am arguing for the existence of the possibility that Skull Kid can have a unique moveset. That has been proven numerous times throughout the thread, by myself and by others. I don't expect you to read through the entire thread, but Skull Kid has been brought up many times here, with a good number of varied moveset ideas. The ones mentioned here were elaborated upon much more at an earlier point in the thread. I even quoted a partially complete one which I was involved in building. If you want me to write out a 100% complete and unique moveset, I can do that, but it would do very little good other than to satisfy you, considering PMBR probably wouldn't use half of what's written about any character in here.

Also, saying that you were limiting your imagination wasn't meant to prove anything. That was just an observation.

 

[red9rd]

Spoiler

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Spoiler

 

[Empyrean]

You can guys be just as bad as the smash 4 prediction threads.

Then again.... there's *****ing in every smash thread. Examples: 64- mod is locking all of our threads waaa. Melee- I don't like this competitive smasher nya nya. Brawl- **** metaknight, and wavedashing. Smash 4- Impa Impa Impa, this character is getting in AHHHH don't argue with me I have evidence! (which is basically assumptions). PM- Pichu Pichu, Ganondorf Ganondorf. >_>

Come on guys, if this keeps up i'll have no safe thread to go to.......

There's always Forum Support.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

There's always Forum Support.

That place is dead too, not active enough for my tastes, i'll give all the threads another chance.

 

[Bleck]

Spoiler: @ Shin F.

Firstly, the effort that PMBR deems worth it for a character is up to them, so it's pointless for you or I to speculate on that.

I already acknowledged that this was the case.

Can you really not tell that an example is just that: an example? The point wasn't, "OH! We should totally mix those!" It was, "You do realize that we can mix and match from many movesets, right? We aren't limited to just one!"

I understood what you were saying - but the fact that it was an example doesn't change my opinion.

Fair enough, but separate from the rest of the argument, I'd like to ask you this: Would you say that their abilities and universe are a big part of what makes a character what they are, and therefore, are irrevocably linked with their personality?

No, because what a character is physically capable of, as well as the attributes of the universe they inhabit, are not aspects of a character's personality.

I believe what's happening here is that you're making an argument that's correct, but is using the wrong terminology. To say that a character's moveset can be not only based, but extrapolated from their game's setting and whatnot, which is what I believe you're saying, is true, and I agree. But saying that, for example, Fox' ability to use a laser pistol is a part of his personality, doesn't make any sense.

Hardly. Firstly, many characters in Project M share similar attacks with very different properties, such as Fox and Falco, so it's not as varied as you're implying there.

You misunderstand; I'm saying that the reason we already have several characters who are very similar to each other was because of the already large number of characters.

Next, there are a large number of styles and forms of attack (especially normal types of attack) that aren't present in Smash, and even more possibilities for completely new made up styles. There is literally no limit to the forms of attack that could be used.

Yes, which is why I was saying that I'd not seen very many interesting ideas as to what moves Skull Kid could have.

I'd also like to point out that I think that special attacks are more important than normal attacks with regards to how interesting a character is - earlier you said that Captain Falcon and Mario weren't really comparable to each other even though they both punch and kick and etc., and I agree. But if Captain Falcon's specials were a jumping punch, a bouncing fireball, a spinning punch and whipping you with a cape, could we say the same?

I think that, because of the number of characters we have, normal attacks are almost certainly going to (functionally) overlap with each other to a degree - but it's the specials that are really a character's bread and butter. And it's for that reason that I initially argued that the things that he could do (from the games) weren't really interesting ideas for special attacks - yeah, he can teleport and levitate, but so can Zelda and Mewtwo. Yeah, he can maybe whip people with tentacles, but we already have ZSS whipping people. And so on and so forth.

When I first said that Skull Kid's actions from the games didn't make for a compelling moveset, I think people took it the wrong way; it wasn't to imply that I'd rather not see him playable at all, but rather that I'd like to see him with a moveset that takes more interesting ideas and meshes them together thematically with the character.

You know, what you just said is actually an argument against adding any more original Clone Engine characters at all.

Looking back, it does seem that way, huh? I'm gonna retract that statement.

Incidentally, you got Sakurai's reasoning wrong. The reason he's doing that is for balance. He said that it becomes harder to balance characters with a roster that size. It has nothing to do with the number of unique attacks could be available.

I think it has more to do with it than you might think - as the number of characters that are very similar to each other increases, the chances that there'll be a larger gap in effectiveness between characters does as well. It manifests in two ways - multiple characters can have moves that are so effective as to create a large gap between them and other characters (i.e in Melee, Fox and Falco), or similar characters can suffer immensely for what's been done to differentiate them (Melee's Captain Falcon compared to Brawl's Ganondorf).

I know that Sakurai was likely referring to the multiplicative increase in individual character match-ups, but I think that this plays a relatively large part in balance issues as well.

Also, saying that you were limiting your imagination wasn't meant to prove anything. That was just an observation.

I think it was an observation based on this discussion starting on a more contrary note than was necessary. To be clear, I'm not trying to fight with anybody about who should or shouldn't be in the game - I just don't want the community to get behind ideas that aren't interesting, because I'd rather minimize the chances that they could influence the PMBR.

Like I said, I just wanted to spur discussion that could lead to more interesting ideas (which I admit is something I may have already missed earlier in the thread).

 

[Empyrean]

That place is dead too, not active enough for my tastes, i'll give all the threads another chance.

You can always try to start a flame war, that brings people in bigtime. Like something along the lines of, gee, I don't know, "Ridley's 2 big", "**** Pichu", "**** the competitive scene", etc.

Just to be clear here for the others though, I'm being sarcastic.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

You can always try to start a flame war, that brings people in bigtime. Like something along the lines of, gee, I don't know, "Ridley's 2 big", "**** Pichu", "**** the competitive scene", etc.

Just to be clear here for the others though, I'm being sarcastic.

I'm not trying to troll a thread, I'm trying to hang out in a thread, without any stupid arguments going on and there's alot of people posting, stuff like that.

Its kinda hard to find that around here.....

 

[Empyrean]

I'm not trying to troll a thread, I'm trying to hang out in a thread, without any stupid arguments going on and there's alot of people posting, stuff like that.

Its kinda hard to find that around here.....

Don't worry I was only joking. And I understand your concern. I just checked the SSB4 section and all I saw were people fighting over a small detail in a pic.

 

[Deviljho]

... Did all of this start... because I gave a half vote to Pichu? .............Erm.....


@ XStarWarriorX : Your sig is awesome. Just sayin.

 

[Bleck]

... Did all of this start... because I gave a half vote to Pichu?

You monster.

 

[Deviljho]

You monster.

I'm sorry...? Iunno. Guess I'm the worst person in the world because of this.

(But seriously, was that a joke?)

 

[Bleck]

It was a joke, yes. Back in the old country, we make those all the time.

 

[Shin F.]

Spoiler: @ Bleck

No, because what a character is physically capable of, as well as the attributes of the universe they inhabit, are not aspects of a character's personality.

I believe what's happening here is that you're making an argument that's correct, but is using the wrong terminology. To say that a character's moveset can be not only based, but extrapolated from their game's setting and whatnot, which is what I believe you're saying, is true, and I agree. But saying that, for example, Fox' ability to use a laser pistol is a part of his personality, doesn't make any sense.

Ah, that's what I thought. I agree with this. You see, I'm not referring specifically to what the character is like as a person, but rather, the 'personality' that is exhibited in the character taken as a whole, the way that the character 'feels'.

: attractive qualities that make something unusual or interesting

^ This is the closest definition of personality I've found (in like 2 minutes) that expresses what I'm talking about here. Not incorrect terminology, simply different terminology.

You misunderstand; I'm saying that the reason we already have several characters who are very similar to each other was because of the already large number of characters.

Looking at it that way makes more sense, but consider that one of the big reasons clones are included in fighting games is to bolster the size of the roster with less effort. This is something that goes all the way back to the creation of Ken in Street Fighter. In Melee, Falco wasn't similar to Fox because they couldn't think of original moves for him. He was similar to Fox to save the time and effort of actually making a full-on moveset. The same applies to Young Link, Pichu, and even Ganondorf. That's actually a very valid argument against having any original characters in the Clone Engine, but as we agree, the amount of effort PMBR puts into this is entirely up to them.

Yes, which is why I was saying that I'd not seen very many interesting ideas as to what moves Skull Kid could have.

I'd also like to point out that I think that special attacks are more important than normal attacks with regards to how interesting a character is - earlier you said that Captain Falcon and Mario weren't really comparable to each other even though they both punch and kick and etc., and I agree. But if Captain Falcon's specials were a jumping punch, a bouncing fireball, a spinning punch and whipping you with a cape, could we say the same?

I think that, because of the number of characters we have, normal attacks are almost certainly going to (functionally) overlap with each other to a degree - but it's the specials that are really a character's bread and butter. And it's for that reason that I initially argued that the things that he could do (from the games) weren't really interesting ideas for special attacks - yeah, he can teleport and levitate, but so can Zelda and Mewtwo. Yeah, he can maybe whip people with tentacles, but we already have ZSS whipping people. And so on and so forth.

Alright, then. His potential specials have been talked about quite a bit, but I can't remember them all off the top of my head cause it was a while ago and it's late. I'll look for and post them later.

When I first said that Skull Kid's actions from the games didn't make for a compelling moveset, I think people took it the wrong way; it wasn't to imply that I'd rather not see him playable at all, but rather that I'd like to see him with a moveset that takes more interesting ideas and meshes them together thematically with the character.

To be fair, the way you said it was kind of abrasive. You sounded as though you were completely against him and found him utterly boring and unable to even have the chance to become unique.

I think it has more to do with it than you might think - as the number of characters that are very similar to each other increases, the chances that there'll be a larger gap in effectiveness between characters does as well. It manifests in two ways - multiple characters can have moves that are so effective as to create a large gap between them and other characters (i.e in Melee, Fox and Falco), or similar characters can suffer immensely for what's been done to differentiate them (Melee's Captain Falcon compared to Brawl's Ganondorf).

I know that Sakurai was likely referring to the multiplicative increase in individual character match-ups, but I think that this plays a relatively large part in balance issues as well.

That's all certainly possible, but I don't think you'll find many characters that are so similar outside of the same series. If Sakurai focuses on bringing in new series like Golden Sun, Xenoblade Chronicles and Advance Wars, he can find plenty of unique characters, some of which we've discussed here. Then, reaching deeper into the current franchises for characters like Rosalina is bound to bring up some original possibilities.

I think it was an observation based on this discussion starting on a more contrary note than was necessary. To be clear, I'm not trying to fight with anybody about who should or shouldn't be in the game - I just don't want the community to get behind ideas that aren't interesting, because I'd rather minimize the chances that they could influence the PMBR.

Like I said, I just wanted to spur discussion that could lead to more interesting ideas (which I admit is something I may have already missed earlier in the thread).

I understand that completely, but again, it came off (to me, at least) as you being unwilling to see what he had to offer. It felt as though you didn't even want to give him a chance. In your first post, you listed the things he was seen doing, and that you didn't think he had the makings of an interesting moveset. That kind of statement, in the way that I read it (and the others who replied, it would seem), held the implication that nothing could be done to fix it, which is basically the only point I've been trying to contradict - that he can be original, and he can be interesting. When some of the ideas were explained, I think they may have seemed to you to be vague because we didn't go into the same detail that we did in the discussion where it was originally brought up.

Some of the things we talked about, from the top of my head. Keep in mind this probably isn't everything, and certainly doesn't encompass all of the discussion about them. These also don't have to be specials, as some would be suitable for other forms of attack:

His blowpipe from OoT, which could work like a combination of Sheik's Needles and Snake's Tranq Gun. He would be able to angle it and use them to put enemies to sleep.

His iconic scream, when he calls down the moon. It would borrow the effects of a Redead's scream, stunning anything in range. It could also be chargeable, gaining volume and distance the more it's charged.

His hovering and teleporting. I know that you say Zelda and Mewtwo already have these, but keep in mind that there was quite a bit of discussion in ways to differentiate them from the original. I'll see if I can find them later, I just gotta get into bed soon. I believe there was something about the teleport having more distance in exchange for slower startup time or something. I would also like to again remind that similar moves can be implemented in different ways for different characters, like the spacies. I personally think that it would work well if his hover worked like Pit's original recovery did.

His puppets. He could use his flute to call them in for attacks, after which they would vanish in the same sort of way that Skull Kid teleports. One idea was that calling a puppet would cause it to follow Skull Kid and support it in the same way Nana does for Popo, but with limited stamina as opposed needing to be KOd, though that was a thought that was considered rather unfeasible.

His lantern, from Twilight Princess. It was suggested that he could use it in his moveset, with it being a battering item or spewing out fire. Or both.

His magic. Plenty of possibilities here. PMBR can literally give him any type of magical attack they want. He could even borrow Ganondorf's signature magical volley ball, since Ganon himself doesn't use it. There's also a beam / ray of fire that Majora's Mask uses in battle.

Majora's Wrath. His tentacles. Again, there are plenty of ways these could be used. He could use them as tether grapples and throwing, or even in a manner similar to Marth's Dancing Blade.

And of course, his Final Smash of calling down the moon.

That's honestly enough to construct a full moveset, right there, and a rather unique one if you're creative with it. Many of them may be similar to a move another character has, but together, used in the proper ways, they can form a completely different picture.

There's a video here showing a Skull Kid PSA someone made over Toon Link. It's far from PMBR quality and some elements of Toon Link's moves and voice are still there, but you can see the beginnings of what could become an interesting moveset if it were developed while implementing some of the other ideas from this thread. There are actually a couple of the attacks I talked about, most notably the fire beam that Majora uses, the blowpipe and a number of "generic" magical attacks for his normals. It even has Tatl and Tael helping him in a couple of attacks.

 

[Ninka_kiwi]

Alright so here's something I've been thinking about. What if Lyn ended up having the ability to cancel her normals and smashes like Lucario can do in PM?

I feel like if she had something in her moveset like that to differentiate her from the other FE lords, she could end up being pretty interesting as a Clone engine character.

 

[Sonic and Link]

Here comes another volley of votes.

1+
Ray
Skull Kid
Saki
Plusle & Minun
Isaac

1/2+
Ridley
Bowser Jr
Lyn
Skapon

I voted on those i deemed to have the highest potential of being unique (the only exception possibly being Pluse & Minun). Afterall, i dont see the point in creating new characters that are more or less similiare to what we already have.

 

[Epsilonsama]

1+
Masked Man
Ganondorf/Black Shadow
Pichu
Tails
Ridley

1/2+
Dark Samus
Samurai Goroh
Bowser Jr.
Saki
Tetra

 

[Solbliminal]

So I've been thinking...Which of these Ray attacks would you guys want to see next? I'll let you guys decide the next one I'll work on.
-Tackle
-Knuckle Gun
-Catcher Gun
-Gravity Gun

 

[NisforSmash]

+1 Pichu as an homage to melee

He's already got a moveset, soundbank, and fanbase. All he really needs is a character slot and final smash. Of course there's the whole "pichu is a joke" and "He's not viable" tune that people have been singing for awhile. Believe me, I sung that tune for the longest time but I had a change of heart. There's already 41 other viable characters who each play differently and if one measly electric mouse baby thing is going to ruin the game then just go play melee brawl 64 mahvel. I'm sure with a little revamping he can have just as much potential as other characters but if the team wanted to just copypasta him into the game i'd be fine with that.

+1 Isaac as tribute to the fans

He's got a model which they can use as a base or reference and he has some sounds already. He's one of the most requested characters by fans, and his series Golden Sun has had no representation. With the possibilities of his moveset, and a little pmbr magic he could easily fit into the current cast. I really don't see a reason for him not being in.

+1 PMBR choice

You guys did an amazing job on the game so why not make a character that you all agree on. I don't care who it is, and I'd be more curious to see what this character played like over the last 2 stated. I'd say spend most of your time on this character trying to create a completely new moveset and playing experience for all of us to enjoy. If you were to include them in an update, don't do an announcement trailer like roy and mewtwo but rather drop a hint that on the next match we play in, we might want to choose a character we're comfortable with (fox) or something like that to prepare us for a completely new matchup. The hype would be unbairable and probably destroy my wii.

Anyway those are my choices for clone engine spots. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Saito]

Well this place blew up.

Let's ignite those flame wars again.

Young link deserves to be back. Everyone who disagrees is wrong.

 

[Deviljho]

It was a joke, yes. Back in the old country, we make those all the time.

Ah. Thanks for clarifying. Not too good at detecting sarcasm. I remember back when we made those.

Well this place blew up.

Let's ignite those flame wars again.

Young link deserves to be back. Everyone who disagrees is wrong.

Uhh..... All I wanted was the milk taunt back, and I got that, so I'm good.

 

[Empyrean]

Well this place blew up.

Let's ignite those flame wars again.

Young link deserves to be back. Everyone who disagrees is wrong.

I say we remove all the Brawl veterans. I don't remember those being in Melee.

 

[Giygue]

While I don't want him to be re-added as a character...would it really be too much to ask to have young link as an Alt or something? I mean, he was one of my Mains in Melee and I'd like to be able to play as him without looking like a Powerpuff Girl. Nothing against Wind Waker or any other Toon Link Style Zeldas It's just at this point I don't see a reason not too...