New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[arcticfox8]

That's a convenient opinion and a weak example.

Street Fighter isn't an all stars game and no one's been wanting a different moveset from the moment they saw his. Both of which can be said for Ganondorf in Smash. I don't really have anything to say to your capped moveset point other than I completely disagree.

Well then we just have to disagree.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Ignore, I dun goof'd

 

[arcticfox8]

wrongbutton2strong

 

[HayabusaTaichou]

I just don't like the idea of everyone else having to adjust because a few people are whiny about what Sakurai did with Ganondorf.
The sense of entitlement some people have is something I find offensive.

And sorry Kally, but I don't find Toon Ganon that appealing either.

I said earlier that I didn't want a fight but I have to say that a few people being whiny and people with a bloated sense of entitlement feel like the people who don't want Ganondorf to change much more than the apparent large number of people who want to see Ganondorf with his own moveset / Black Shadow with the existing moveset.

 

[Knight Dude]

Well, I would prefer it if Ganon had a couple more unique moves, but that can be said for most Clones and Semi-Clones. If he isn't changed further in Project M, that's fine by me. I was merely suggesting any possible ideas. Same goes for Smash 4, I'd like to see Ganondorf get some new tricks up his sleeves. Especially the Dead Man's Volley. That could help with Ganon's approaches.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Ignore, I dun goof'd

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Oh, yeah, Black Shadow isn't controversial at all, as evidenced by the argument that immediately exploded out of his mere mention.

Just a question, why, exactly, does Ganondorf feel so out of character to everyone? I'm a huge LoZ fan, but I certainly don't think the current design defies canon to the point of basically scrapping all the effort that's been put into making the Ganon we have his own character. Some of Ganondorf's best moments in the games were when the beast side of his persona shows and he just destroys things with his own bare hands. It's an established occurrence in the series for Ganon to use brute strength, practically moreso than his repertoire of magic (which is mostly curses and the less "battleready" types anyways).
He even shows actual distaste for his blade in Twilight Princess, and honestly his most iconic moves in that game were when he brutally broke Link's guard with an elbow or sparta kick (hey canon moves in Smash Bros imagine that). Sure, put a few sword moves on Ganon, but acting as if one act of defiance (killing the Hero with a blade meant for his own execution) defines Ganon's entire preferred style of fighting is a bit much.

No matter how easy BS/Ganon would be, it would eternally feel to me like wasted time and space, when we have a Ganon available for characterization sitting right in front of us already.

 

[trojanpooh]

As a Ganon user in Smash, a fan of Zelda, and a fan of F-Zero I absolutely hate the idea of the BS switch. It is the only suggested idea that actually hurts current players. I originally picked up Ganondorf because I wanted to play as Ganondorf. Not as a heavy Captain Falcon. Not as an evil Batman knockoff. Ganondorf. It just so happened that I really enjoyed the moveset and continued to play as him over the years. It's not cool to change a beloved character into a barely known character that's from an essentially dead franchise just because people who probably don't even play as him don't like that he's a clone.

You fight Ganondorf in all of 3 games and he has a different fighting style in every single one of them. Him having an "uninspired" moveset isn't some huge insult to gaming culture. Frankly, it makes a lot of sense. Maybe he'll get a revision in Smash 4, but PM isn't the place for that revision. PM is a competitive hack and it needs to take the competitive fans into account. The BS switch is just as bad if not worse as it'd be if the PMBR decided to give Falco his reflector kick.

 

[Saito]

The BS/Ganondorf Idea is a bit tricky.

I'm opposed to it, but I see why people want it. Not like I have a problem with Ganondorf getting a new moveset or Black shadow even getting his own moveset, but It feels weird to give Black shadow Ganon's moveset and give Ganon a new one.

I don't know what secret forces in my mind are telling me why I don't like the idea, but I really don't like the idea.

 

[arcticfox8]

It makes sense that people are arguing over a character's inclusion on the 200th page.
Y'know, I joined this thread around the 40-somethingth page. I joined this thread mid-November.
What the actual hell.

 

[HayabusaTaichou]

. . . barely known character that's from an essentially dead franchise . . .

Whenever I see someone say something like this about F-Zero it hurts me deeply.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

There is a whole discussion in the Ganondorf thread about his meta game and changes. But I think all the moves/throws that are identical to Falcon can change to fit Ganon better but stay functionally the same (except ! Warlock Punch!) it probably wouldn't upset current Ganon mains (like my self) but a totally unieqe Ganon will be a dream come true! And I would still play Black Shadow for the moveset.

Here are some of my suggestions:

- When they finally change Warlock punch, they can use that animation (with the darkness affect and all) for his F-smash. Win-win

- Imagine Mew2's Up- smash... Good! Now imagine Ganon doing it but it's a strong 2 hits just like his current Up smash, win-win.

Imagine Ganon punching the ground like in OOT, now imagine it looking like Charizard's Down smash but with Electricity affect. It can function just like his current Dsmash as a 2 hit, or it can be changed. Win-win.

The rest of his cloned animations like Bair, Nair, Uair, grab animation and throwing animations, can all be changed to be more sluggish/brutish looking (like Fair and Dair) to fit Ganon better, also added darkness and lightning affect around his limb as he executes his moves would just add an extra flair and establish he is a wizard/magic user further (imagine Fair with a darkness trail like Wizard's Foot, it would be even more badass! Same with electricity around his arm during Bair).

These type of changes would most likely please both LOZ fans and Ganon mains, and if some of the moves can be improved in the process it would be even better (the smash gods know some of them need to be improved). Even with all this said I would still prefer Ganon/Black Shadow idea.

I have a few other ideas, these changes are to make Ganon more unique NOT to change how he plays:

- Up Special: instead of grabbing the opponent like C. Falcon he can do a sort of a bear hug and possibly laugh maniacally while electrocuting the enemy. Also when Ganon blasts the opponent away and he gets "pushed back" the animation should look unique, currently its like CF's its very nimble and even a bit elegant. A more brutish animation showing Ganon's power/cockiness would fit better. Also his uppercut at the end should get a darkness trail affect, just so it feels more like a magical attack.

- Down Special: Now Wizard's Kick is amazing! And should not change functionally (unless its for the better lol) but aesthetically its very similar to Falcon Kick. Maybe instead of a kick, Ganon glides forward the opponent with his arm stretched in front of him palm open, at the end of his palm a darkness wave or ball is found and the darkness trail emits from the tip of it. This keeps the move the same but changes it aesthetics. (*Note* this move is on the bottom of my list that needs an aesthetic change, all his other cloned moves should be changed first)

- Bair: Currently Ganon has his left fist stretched out and his other tucked next to his chest, while his feet are crossed, this move looks way to nimble for Ganon. Instead his tucked right fist can be changed to having his elbow out and his hand open facing downwards, also his feet would be apart instead of crossed.

I have made "drawings" of my suggested animation and/or move changes, its not amazing since i had to draw it with a mouse but i think it gets the point across for those that have a hard time imagining it, also pay attention to the way his back, hands, arms and legs look in some of the pics, the hand are more open and the arms and legs are more spread apart while his back is more slouched forward in Up B, all to fit Ganondorf's character better. Same type of "style" could be applied to how his grab animation and throw animations look as well.
<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://s899.photobucket.com/user/Muzumush/embed/slideshow/Ganondorf move ideas"></iframe>

The more I think about these potential changes the more I want to see them happen lol.

 

[trojanpooh]

Whenever I see someone say something like this about F-Zero it hurts me deeply.

Look, I love F-Zero, but it's still true. Frankly I probably could have gotten away without the word 'nearly' but I'm still holding out for a sudden return one day.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I said earlier that I didn't want a fight but I have to say that a few people being whiny and people with a bloated sense of entitlement feel like the people who don't want Ganondorf to change much more than the apparent large number of people who want to see Ganondorf with his own moveset / Black Shadow with the existing moveset.

Well, this is currently a poll consisting of 214 people.
While I think the poll is still valid, it still seems that a Clone Engine thread would only attract a certain breed of players. I'd say that a thread like this appeals most to a more casual crowd. A crowd of players that see the concept of "5 additional fighters" and simply say "Wow, that's sounds cool" without thinking of how these things would affect competitive play or just other players in general (I was one of those people at one point). As a result, people would vote for the Black Shadow idea only because it appeals to them and not because it would have a positive effect on the meta or any one else. They see people with differing opinions and say "WOW, WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU".

If this proposal was brought to the attention of the whole of Smashboards (which isn't possible), I can guarantee that there would be more backlash than there is now. Just like some of the close-minded supporters (not saying you're close-minded), there would be a bigger number of close-minded people against the idea. People would be opposed to it "bcuz Melee", or because they are Ganon mains who like Ganon how he is, or because they think Black Shadow is a giant toolbox of a character.

So I don't see how you could say 100 people is "a large number", given the audience of Smash as a whole and how toxic we Smashers can be to things like this.

 

[Shin F.]

Oh, yeah, Black Shadow isn't controversial at all, as evidenced by the argument that immediately exploded out of his mere mention.

Just a question, why, exactly, does Ganondorf feel so out of character to everyone? I'm a huge LoZ fan, but I certainly don't think the current design defies canon to the point of basically scrapping all the effort that's been put into making the Ganon we have his own character. Some of Ganondorf's best moments in the games were when the beast side of his persona shows and he just destroys things with his own bare hands. It's an established occurrence in the series for Ganon to use brute strength, practically moreso than his repertoire of magic (which is mostly curses and the less "battleready" types anyways).
He even shows actual distaste for his blade in Twilight Princess, and honestly his most iconic moves in that game were when he brutally broke Link's guard with an elbow or sparta kick (hey canon moves in Smash Bros imagine that). Sure, put a few sword moves on Ganon, but acting as if one act of defiance (killing the Hero with a blade meant for his own execution) defines Ganon's entire preferred style of fighting is a bit much.

No matter how easy BS/Ganon would be, it would eternally feel to me like wasted time and space to me, when we have a Ganon available for characterization sitting right in front of us already.

I respect the opinions of people who oppose the BS/Ganondorf idea because I think they have valid reasons, but I have to disagree with you on that second paragraph. The image of Ganondorf being a brawler and using his fists doesn't come from Zelda, it comes from Smash.

In Ocarina of Time, he was very magic-oriented in his Ganondorf form and used twin swords as Ganon. In Wind Waker, he used twin swords as Ganondorf and fought magically via his puppets. In Twilight Princess, he did indeed use his Beast Ganon form very physically (albeit with teleporting magic being a very major part), which is represented well in his Final Smash. However, he fought magically (and with a sword) while possessing Zelda, and afterwards, he again fought with a sword (with a couple of flips and physical strikes, but mostly with his sword). Even in the original Zelda, A Link to the Past, and Four Swords Adventures, his beast form used magic and his Trident. And again, in A Link Between Worlds, Yuga Ganon uses his trident and magic. Even all of the forms of Phantom Ganon use magic and weapons and not their fists to fight.

So, again, I respect the opinions of those opposing the ideas and I won't argue about that, but you're wrong if you think Canondorf is a brawler like he is in Smash.

 

[Banjodorf]

Look, I love F-Zero, but it's still true. Frankly I probably could have gotten away without the word 'nearly' but I'm still holding out for a sudden return one day.

Which is why we should look at this as a good chance to give such a great series some notice for the first time in a while. Granted, that's not the only reason, but come on.

 

[HayabusaTaichou]

Look, I love F-Zero, but it's still true. Frankly I probably could have gotten away without the word 'nearly' but I'm still holding out for a sudden return one day.

If it's nintendo you can never say something is truly dead.

 

[trojanpooh]

Which is why we should look at this as a good chance to give such a great series some notice for the first time in a while. Granted, that's not the only reason, but come on.

This is Project M, not Smash 4. Anyone who plays this game but doesn't know about F-Zero doesn't know because they don't care.

 

[Bleck]

I think they should take Ganondorf's moveset and give it to Funky Kong.

 

[trojanpooh]

And then give Big the Cat a swords/magic moveset. Honestly how many people actually like Ganondorf as a character anyway? He never really deserved to be in Smash in the first place.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

And then give Big the Cat a swords/magic moveset. Honestly how many people actually like Ganondorf as a character anyway? He never really deserved to be in Smash in the first place.

umm.... really?

A very iconic villain from a very popular franchise doesn't deserve to be in smash? Also I think Ganon is a super cool and interesting character.

 

[trojanpooh]

umm.... really?

A very iconic villain from a very popular franchise doesn't deserve to be in smash? Also I think Ganon is a super cool and interesting character.

Woooooooooooooooshhhhhhhhh!

 

[Shin F.]

Woooooooooooooooshhhhhhhhh!

Trojanpoo, I think you broke his sarcasm meter.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Woooooooooooooooshhhhhhhhh!

joke went over my head huh.....

 

[trojanpooh]

joke went over my head huh.....

It's not really your fault. Big the Cat does have a fishing rod, after all.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Trojanpoo, I think you broke his sarcasm meter.

My sarcasm meter has been broken for ages, so I apologize if I misinterpret you guys in the future.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

It's not really your fault. Big the Cat does have a fishing rod, after all.

lol, this joke I got

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I think they should take Ganondorf's moveset and give it to Funky Kong.

Bleck. Global peacemaker since 2010.

inb4 people are writing more arguments right now.

 

[HayabusaTaichou]

Well, this is currently a poll consisting of 214 people.
While I think the poll is still valid, it still seems that a Clone Engine thread would only attract a certain breed of players. I'd say that a thread like this appeals most to a more casual crowd. A crowd of players that see the concept of "5 additional fighters" and simply say "Wow, that's sounds cool" without thinking of how these things would affect competitive play or just other players in general (I was one of those people at one point). As a result, people would vote for the Black Shadow idea only because it appeals to them and not because it would have a positive effect on the meta or any one else. They see people with differing opinions and say "WOW, WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU".

If this proposal was brought to the attention of the whole of Smashboards (which isn't possible), I can guarantee that there would be more backlash than there is now. Just like some of the close-minded supporters (not saying you're close-minded), there would be a bigger number of close-minded people against the idea. People would be opposed to it "bcuz Melee", or because they are Ganon mains who like Ganon how he is, or because they think Black Shadow is a giant toolbox of a character.

So I don't see how you could say 100 people is "a large number", given the audience of Smash as a whole and how toxic we Smashers can be to things like this.

I was more offended by your apparent pretence than saying that your opinion is outright wrong but honestly I imagine an equal average of people who really care about having Ganondorf's current moveset in Project M would know about this thread and have been given the opportunity to give their opinion. Saying that the people who share your opinion are completely ignoring this thread which has a proposition to change from what you want is extremely hard to buy as is also your claim that most of the people here don't care about creating a balanced or competitive game. I really see no reason not to believe that the data collected here is an accurate representation of what people would like to see in this game.

 

[red9rd]

Spoiler

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I respect the opinions of people who oppose the BS/Ganondorf idea because I think they have valid reasons, but I have to disagree with you on that second paragraph. The image of Ganondorf being a brawler and using his fists doesn't come from Zelda, it comes from Smash.

In Ocarina of Time, he was very magic-oriented in his Ganondorf form and used twin swords as Ganon. In Wind Waker, he used twin swords as Ganondorf and fought magically via his puppets. In Twilight Princess, he did indeed use his Beast Ganon form very physically (albeit with teleporting magic being a very major part), which is represented well in his Final Smash. However, he fought magically (and with a sword) while possessing Zelda, and afterwards, he again fought with a sword (with a couple of flips and physical strikes, but mostly with his sword). Even in the original Zelda, A Link to the Past, and Four Swords Adventures, his beast form used magic and his Trident. And again, in A Link Between Worlds, Yuga Ganon uses his trident and magic. Even all of the forms of Phantom Ganon use magic and weapons and not their fists to fight.

So, again, I respect the opinions of those opposing the ideas and I won't argue about that, but you're wrong if you think Canondorf is a brawler like he is in Smash.

Well then, I guess it's not much of a surprise that I think I'm not wrong. Here's why:
OoT: Ganondorf opens with some sort of magically imbued punch (which can be likened to his current fair), which causes the floor to collapse. This is the first combat maneuver we've ever seen him perform. So a decent start. His other abilities are represented by two different magical attacks and a transformation into an uncontrollable beast that shows no semblance of magical ability and uses swords that would be unimplementable on any Smash version of Ganon.

Wind Waker: Cutscene before the final battle, Ganondorf attacks Link with a series of powerful punches. He also knocks Zelda out with a single backhand. His sword techniques are also rather limited, even compared to the number of recognizable unarmed attacks he uses throughout the series. Again, all aspects of magic used by Ganondorf in this game are less direct-combat-oriented, and would translate poorly to any Smash Ganon, brawler or not.

Twilight Princess: He kills a sage with his bare hands, while impaled with a conveniently reachable sword. Also, I already went over the elbow and kick attacks. Seems pretty brawlerish to me, to kick your opponent's shield out of the way in a swordfight because the sword just isn't cutting it (pun intended). Using a sword as Zelda is akin to picking up the nearest weapon to fight, since Zelda's body is hardly fit to perform the same feats of strength that Ganondorf's could.

Everything else tends to fall under Trident Ganon or assorted alternate forms, which would be difficult enough so that it probably wouldn't be implemented on a new Ganon anyways (Fire keese and his boomerang trident, maybe? Why use either over the Volleyball of Doom? You'll have to bring something up if I've missed it).

I think you're looking at my argument the wrong way. I'm simply saying that physical attacks are very much supported by Zelda canon, as I've discussed, and thus, I don't get why the idea seems to be that they have no place in his moveset. I never said Ganon had to be a brawler always, exclusively, and forever. I wouldn't make a single negative comment if Ganon were given a few "more canon" moves, but I certainly frown at the idea of bringing in Black Shadow to do the job.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I was more offended by your apparent pretence than saying that your opinion is outright wrong but honestly I imagine an equal average of people who really care about having Ganondorf's current moveset in Project M would know about this thread and have been given the opportunity to give their opinion. Saying that the people who share your opinion are completely ignoring this thread which has a proposition to change from what you want is extremely hard to buy as is also your claim that most of the people here don't care about creating a balanced or competitive game. I really see no reason not to believe that the data collected here is an accurate representation of what people would like to see in this game.

I don't see what's so hard to buy about it. People think Project M is a sham of a game. Why? Bcuz Melee. Project M is the absolute best case scenario for a promising mod of Brawl, and people still don't like it for stupid reasons. People in this community are THAT averse to change, even when there is hardly any change there. What makes you think that those same people would appreciate this Black Shadow shenanigans? It's simple...they wouldn't. They would bash the idea, for the same stupid reasons. What makes you think those people are "ignoring" this thread. They're not ignoring it, they just don't know it exists or they just don't care. And I can confidently say that a majority of voters here didn't even think of the idea that their wants and desires would have a negative impact on the competitive scene or the community. Otherwise, there would be more people in this conversation right now.

 

[trojanpooh]

Since this is now the terrible ideas to alienate fans thread can we talk about the potential of giving Falco a unique moveset? He should have moves based on the Star Fox Assault multiplayer mode. His old moveset could be given to James McCloud from F-Zero. It's a great idea and all the true Falco fans will appreciate him having a canon moveset.

 

[Saito]

I was more offended by your apparent pretence than saying that your opinion is outright wrong but honestly I imagine an equal average of people who really care about having Ganondorf's current moveset in Project M would know about this thread and have been given the opportunity to give their opinion. Saying that the people who share your opinion are completely ignoring this thread which has a proposition to change from what you want is extremely hard to buy as is also your claim that most of the people here don't care about creating a balanced or competitive game. I really see no reason not to believe that the data collected here is an accurate representation of what people would like to see in this game.

214 people voting.

This game has been downloaded over 200,000 times.

And I agree, these people have been given an oppertunity to give their opinions but not everyone will because they don't know how to word it out properly, or they don't bother because they think the PMBR would never do something so bold.

Don't forget, this is all speculation by non-PMBR members. If this thread was made by the PMBR don't you think many more people would reply? It would be more than speculation. It would have a real chance of happening, and the people who really don't want it would feel that it was time to say something.

 

[Bleck]

There are already several threads/discussions about changing Falco's moveset in whatever capacity, and even if there were not, this is not really the thread to discuss it in regardless.

 

[arcticfox8]

Since this is now the terrible ideas to alienate fans thread can we talk about the potential of giving Falco a unique moveset? He should have moves based on the Star Fox Assault multiplayer mode. His old moveset could be given to James McCloud from F-Zero. It's a great idea and all the true Falco fans will appreciate him having a canon moveset.

Are we doing these jokes again? click the arrow

 

[MLGF]

Sarcasm detector is not working I REPEAT, SARCASM DETECTOR IS DOWN!
And honestly, Black Shadowdorf would just piss me off and reminds me that despite some genuine good ideas, this topic should not be considered at all.

 

[HayabusaTaichou]

I don't see what's so hard to buy about it. People think Project M is a sham of a game. Why? Bcuz Melee. Project M is the absolute best case scenario for a promising mod of Brawl, and people still don't like it for stupid reasons. People in this community are THAT averse to change, even when there is hardly any change there. What makes you think that those same people would appreciate this Black Shadow shenanigans? It's simple...they wouldn't. They would bash the idea, for the same stupid reasons. What makes you think those people are "ignoring" this thread. They're not ignoring it, they just don't know it exists or they just don't care. And I can confidently say that a majority of voters here didn't even think of the idea that their wants and desires would have a negative impact on the competitive scene or the community. Otherwise, there would be more people in this conversation right now.

So you're saying that people who like current Ganondorf aren't posting here cause they don't care for P:M but their opinion on how Ganondorf should play should still be counted for P:M because . . .

Sorry I'm really not following.

 

[trojanpooh]

Sarcasm detector is not working I REPEAT, SARCASM DETECTOR IS DOWN!
And honestly, Black Shadowdorf would just piss me off and reminds me that despite some genuine good ideas, this topic should not be considered at all.

Sarcasm can be hard to pick up on when you're constantly being bombarded by terrible ideas for 200 pages of discussion.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I asked earlier if there were other F-Zero / LoZ fans so they could weigh in on the current issue.

So far it's just Trojanpooh, but he's not anyone new.

I guess all I did was unintentionally fan the flames, seeing how intense this thread's getting once more.

*sigh*

I'm sorry everyone.