New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Bleck]

Knuckles being playable before Tails would be like Wario being playable before Luigi.

I don't think there should be any additional characters from Sonic games - I can't think of any character that would make for a good base for Tails, and Knuckles would probably be pretty boring.

I think the only character from the Metal Gear series that could be interesting is Raiden circa MGS4 and Revengeance; he could be based on one of the sword-wielding characters. Anybody else (any of Les Enfants Terrible, or Big Boss himself) would probably be difficult to differentiate from Snake in a meaningful way.

 

[Solbliminal]

Being a Sonic fan who likes the series more than one should...I say Shadow or bust. I mean not like my opinion matters...ya know...being a fan of the series from start to finish and all... But that is just me. A fan... Okay I'll shut up....

Spoiler

 

[guedes the brawler]

now that Rosalina stole Bowser Jr's chance to be in SSB4, we need him here.

for his specials, we could have his two special shots from Mario Power Tennis as well as the Jr. koopa Clown.

For his down special, i though of maybe
1- Spilling graffiti on the ground. Makes people trip
2- Applying the lave paint from the last level of SMS on his paintbrush, making all of his attacks more powerful if they are tipped, for a while.

 

[andalsoandy]

RAY'S HEIGHT CHART

The first row is my suggested height that averages between Samus and Mario, where the 2nd is nearly eye-level to Mario. Ray at this toy size, as you all are suggesting, looks incredibly weird and out of place. Any smaller and I wouldn't even bother playing as or against this character. Ray literally has no more detail than Samus herself, and looks completely fine at my purposed height.

i like the smaller one.
he looks more like a toy than a cool robot fighter guy
he's like classic mega man

 

[andalsoandy]

I thought about this today: What if the PMBR wants to make simple clones (like, Fox/Falco/Wolf or Marth/Roy) for the rest of the slots?
We'd have to pick characters that have very similar traits to other characters.

Here's a few examples.
Mario/Luigi - Toad (Smaller, faster, like in the Mario games. Needs a cargo throw :D)
Fox/Falco/Wolf - Slippy (Low traction, Low air speed, crazy moves revolving around the characters clumsyness. Luigi style.)
Samus - Dark Samus (if kept simple)
Jigglypuff - Igglybuff or Wigglytuff (Iggs should be even more polarized than Jiggs.)
Pikachu - Pichu (Shoo-in at this point. I don't wanna argue it.)
Olimar - Louie (If he can't be an alt. He can use his Pikmin a little differently.)
Wario - Waluigi (Definetely a stretch, but his neutral-B and up-B can definately be altered from Wario.)
C. Falcon - Black Shadow (Better Falcon clone than Ganon [same series too]. He can't get footstooled because of his horns.)

Just some ideas.

EDIT: whups, double post.

 

[Anti Guy]

I thought about this today: What if the PMBR wants to make simple clones (like, Fox/Falco/Wolf or Marth/Roy) for the rest of the slots?
We'd have to pick characters that have very similar traits to other characters.

Here's a few examples.
Mario/Luigi - Toad (Smaller, faster, like in the Mario games. Needs a cargo throw :D)
Fox/Falco/Wolf - Slippy (Low traction, Low air speed, crazy moves revolving around the characters clumsyness. Luigi style.)
Samus - Dark Samus (if kept simple)
Jigglypuff - Igglybuff or Wigglytuff (Iggs should be even more polarized than Jiggs.)
Pikachu - Pichu (Shoo-in at this point. I don't wanna argue it.)
Olimar - Louie (If he can't be an alt. He can use his Pikmin a little differently.)
Wario - Waluigi (Definetely a stretch, but his neutral-B and up-B can definately be altered from Wario.)
C. Falcon - Black Shadow (Better Falcon clone than Ganon [same series too]. He can't get footstooled because of his horns.)

Just some ideas.

EDIT: whups, double post.

Uhh... Black Shadow is a MUCH MUCH better clone of Ganon than Falcon. In fact, you can just change the outfit and he fits perfectly.

You forgot the big obvious ones like Bowser Jr (Bowser) and Dark Samus (Samus)

 

[andalsoandy]

Uhh... Black Shadow is a MUCH MUCH better clone of Ganon than Falcon. In fact, you can just change the outfit and he fits perfectly.

You forgot the big obvious ones like Bowser Jr (Bowser) and Dark Samus (Samus)

I put Dark Samus on there.

I wanted to put Bowser Jr on there but he has so much more moveset potential with the paintbrush and Koopa clown car, so I really didn't want to.

I thought about Black Shadow again, and you're pretty much right. The only problem is that he's in the F-Zero series and the victory fanfare won't play, and he will have the Zelda icon. You could make him a clone of C. Falcon but start with Ganon as a base and make him compatible to work as a Falcon clone.

 

[Shin F.]

I thought about Black Shadow again, and you're pretty much right. The only problem is that he's in the F-Zero series and the victory fanfare won't play, and he will have the Zelda icon. You could make him a clone of C. Falcon but start with Ganon as a base and make him compatible to work as a Falcon clone.

I'm pretty sure they can change those fairly easily.

 

[andalsoandy]

I'm pretty sure they can change those fairly easily.

Either way, Black Shadow is an easy clone.

I swear I almost abbreviated him as B.S.

 

[Chzrm3]

Oh heck, the idea of Louie is actually pretty sweet. Olimar bores the heck out of me (not PM's fault - he bored he in vanilla Brawl just as much!), so I'd love to see if a heavier, meatier take on Olimar with some different Pikmin mechanics would actually be enjoyable. I like Falco but not Fox, and Gdorf but not C. Falc, so maybe I'd like Louie even though I don't like Olimar.

Naturally this is kind of a selfish opinion, so I'm interested in hearing what other people think - does Olimar bore you guys? Or do you love him?

 

[Solbliminal]

.

i like the smaller one.
he looks more like a toy than a cool robot fighter guy
he's like classic mega man

Edit to shorten post: Even when scaled to MegaMan's Smash incarnation, his proportions look incredibly frail. He looks right between Mario and Samus' height. If he were any smaller, a lot of his in game actions, as well as hurtboxes, would stupidly hard to play against with his playstyle. And if you try balancing it at that height, it isn't going to feel like Ray from Custom Robo. He then becomes just a generic toy robot who CLAIMS to be Ray from Custom Robo. That isn't really a fair gesture to those who have played the series.

 

[Banjodorf]

I still think the PMBR is going to At least attempt the top 3 characters on the poll. If they don't, the poll was ****ing useless in the first place.

Apart from that;

Dark Samus, Black Shadow (although I think they'd want Sword Ganon if they did this, and I'm not sure that ideas popular, even though I'd love it.), Pichu, Bowser Jr., even Louie. (Which I actually support, because a different take on Olimar would be nice, since the PM one feels totally different from my main in Brawl.)

 

[Solbliminal]

Does anyone else want to weigh in on the Ray discussion?

 

[Anti Guy]

I still think the PMBR is going to At least attempt the top 3 characters on the poll. If they don't, the poll was ****ing useless in the first place.

Apart from that;

Dark Samus, Black Shadow (although I think they'd want Sword Ganon if they did this, and I'm not sure that ideas popular, even though I'd love it.), Pichu, Bowser Jr., even Louie. (Which I actually support, because a different take on Olimar would be nice, since the PM one feels totally different from my main in Brawl.)

Eh, I wouldn't say top 3 for sure. At best the poll just gives them some bit of objective data when picking their characters, so it can at best influence their choices.

 

[Chaos Wolf]

@ Ray Discussion, I think the scale would fit best as a halfway point between the two shown on the charts. I'd tested it and had accidentally forgotten to save the 4 charcter version, but I feel as though the two presented are just a bit too much in either direction. That being said, a Ray at eye level with Squirtle doubles back into making some (some) Visual sense, but as Sol has mentioned, It'd be OP as heck, especially when you consider most of the small characters have a widened hitbox to offset their scale (as in, no really small character has human proportions to the degree Ray does, closest is Olimar)

@ Louie discussion, If we were to go with Louie, would the Pikmin have to be the same models? Theoretically we could get some interesting changes by giving him the Dweevils from Pikmin 2 instead, considering they have elements much like Olimar's Pikmin, and also

Spoiler

the Titan Dweevil being controlled by him in the finale

If not that, his usage of the pikmin would have to be fairly different, perhaps swarming instead of attacking? Or bulbmin in place of one of the two Pikmin 2 types? Maybe even nerfing Olimar by giving Louie dominion over White, Purple and Bulbmin, giving them 3 pikmin types each.

 

[Solbliminal]

@ Ray Discussion, I think the scale would fit best as a halfway point between the two shown on the charts. I'd tested it and had accidentally forgotten to save the 4 charcter version, but I feel as though the two presented are just a bit too much in either direction. That being said, a Ray at eye level with Squirtle doubles back into making some (some) Visual sense, but as Sol has mentioned, It'd be OP as heck, especially when you consider most of the small characters have a widened hitbox to offset their scale (as in, no really small character has human proportions to the degree Ray does, closest is Olimar)

I completely disagree. Nothing about him makes sense being at Squirtle's eye level or even Mario's eye level. The height in which I've presented Ray is completely reasonable and proportionate to the character's scale. And if you guys want to keep bringing up that toy argument, I've got a pretty awesome counter-argument:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

News flash guys:

Spoiler

THEY'RE ALL TOYS!!!

 

[Saito]

I still think the PMBR is going to At least attempt the top 3 characters on the poll. If they don't, the poll was ****ing useless in the first place.

There is a reason this was called a speculation thread.

 

[Chaos Wolf]

I completely disagree. Nothing about him makes sense being at Squirtle's eye level or even Mario's eye level. The height in which I've presented Ray is completely reasonable and proportionate to the character's scale.

I did not suggest Ray at Mario's eye level, I suggested a 50/50 split between your suggestion, which is Samus's Eye Level, and the second version you showed off, Mario's Eye level. At that scale he is not unreasonably smaller than the first design, while not being awkwardly small. And where I said it makes some minor amount of sense at Squirtle's eye level, I explicitly said that it doesn't work on a gameplay standard and already discarded the idea.

 

[Solbliminal]

I did not suggest Ray at Mario's eye level, I suggested a 50/50 split between your suggestion, which is Samus's Eye Level, and the second version you showed off, Mario's Eye level. At that scale he is not unreasonably smaller than the first design, while not being awkwardly small. And where I said it makes some minor amount of sense at Squirtle's eye level, I explicitly said that it doesn't work on a gameplay standard and already discarded the idea.

I think it is you who are misunderstanding me. I am saying whatever you did was pointless because my established height was reasonable enough. Also, it was pretty rude of you to message me to go out of my way and give you a higher resolution picture for another chart. That is a slap to my face for having made the chart, an insult to the effort I put into the artwork, and pointless since we already established that the majority agrees with me. All editing my chart was going to do is drag on a pointless discussion that I clearly ended. So drop it.

Edit: Also guys. I'm going to be posting the next Ray picture soon. Sorry this one took so long. I've been busy the past 2 days. You guys will get to see 1 of the attacks, courtesy of an idea Rasgar gave me.

 

[arcticfox8]

Samus is really tall though. I don't think Ray should be that tall. Chaos Wolf was being pretty reasonable with his suggestions. Even if Ray can't be a miniature character he shouldn't be as tall as Marth or Samus.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Knuckles being playable before Tails would be like Wario being playable before Luigi.

I don't think there should be any additional characters from Sonic games - I can't think of any character that would make for a good base for Tails, and Knuckles would probably be pretty boring.

I think the only character from the Metal Gear series that could be interesting is Raiden circa MGS4 and Revengeance; he could be based on one of the sword-wielding characters. Anybody else (any of Les Enfants Terrible, or Big Boss himself) would probably be difficult to differentiate from Snake in a meaningful way.

While Tails and Robotnik are arguably more important to the storyline of the series as a whole, I think Knuckles represents the peak of the series in the eyes of many fans. He was THE breakout character of the franchise in it's heyday, pretty much stole the show in Sonic 3 and Knuckles (seen by many as the high point of the franchise), got his own game, and he boasts plenty of unique abilities (wall-clinging, gliding). His fists also make him a very interesting fighter and give him an almost ganon-esque twist to contrast from Sonic's playstyle.

That said I think Knuckles brings the most to the series gameplaywise. Tails would be cool though-- it would be rather ironic considering the Sonic and Tails rumors that used to float around in the early days of SSBM.

Either way, I don't think another Sonic character is getting in regardless, and I agree that P:M doesn't really need one.

If Big Boss is somehow represented, his scientist outfit should be an alt costume.

 

[Solbliminal]

Samus is really tall though. I don't think Ray should be that tall. Chaos Wolf was being pretty reasonable with his suggestions. Even if Ray can't be a miniature character he shouldn't be as tall as Marth or Samus.

Reasonable suggestion? Not really, seeing as it was just an estimated height and not a final product. Look at it from my perspective for a sec. You poured a days worth of VOLUNTARY work into drawing and chart and someone comes in and asks me to give a "better resolution image" for "another chart". Do you find that reasonable that I should go out of my way to touch up the resolution of my image while I'm trying to finish a moveset to display the possibility of the character? All that discussion is going to do is be a string of disagreements that cause another Ridley situation, and none of it contributes to support for the character. So again I ask you... Reasonable suggestion?

 

[Banjodorf]

Eh, I wouldn't say top 3 for sure. At best the poll just gives them some bit of objective data when picking their characters, so it can at best influence their choices.

That's true, and its not "for sure", but it shows them what people are really hoping for based on the criteria set.

Though it does make the poll seem less legitimate if they were to choose, say, Pichu or a Sonic character rather than Lyn or Isaac.

(This is of course only based on poll results and resultant popularity, not including any other factors that may influence character choice.)

Edit: I liked where the Louie discussion was going. Lets keep that up!

Edit 2: Are the Pikmin articles? Maybe we could limit Louie to Rock/Flying Pikmin, and give them unique properties. That seems doable. That would also make him more visually different from Olimar, and rep Pikmin that don't seem to be present in Smash 4

 

[Solbliminal]

Finished another picture for Ray: http://sta.sh/01w9ogq7fosa

 

[Chaos Wolf]

Ok, just saw the last few posts, before we move on to something else, want to apologize for lack of clarity Sol. when I'd referred to a "Better image" of ray in the conversation. I wasn't asking you to redo your work, I had assumed the picture of ray in the height charts was scaled down, and was requesting to borrow the original version of the standing pose of ray to potentially add different scales for what I'd assumed an ongoing discussion. That being said, the consensus is pretty much agreed upon when it comes to height, and I'm cool with letting it go too, just wanted to clarify there and apologize for the misunderstanding. I look forward to seeing the completed Ray Moveset when it comes out.

As for Rock and Winged pikmin, I'm not sure if it wouldn't be better to go with Alph if that were the case. In such a scenario, The Rock Pikmin and Winged pikmin would probably best take the roles of the Purple and white ones. As we both have stated though, this would depend on Olimar's Pikmin not being a separate folder to Olimar himself. This issue also applies to Louie if we're to turn his Pikmin into the Dweevils from Pikmin 2.

If the pikmin are unrelated to Olimar's folder, either we would have to make a separate folder for Louie/Alph's Pikmin, or we could simply reuse Olimar's pikmin in an unused manner. Say for example, rather than throwing one pikmin for a side B, Louie whistles and sends the set at the opponent, with the drawback being the Pikmin are more fragile.

 

[Solbliminal]

Ok, just saw the last few posts, before we move on to something else, want to apologize for lack of clarity Sol. when I'd referred to a "Better image" of ray in the conversation. I wasn't asking you to redo your work, I had assumed the picture of ray in the height charts was scaled down, and was requesting to borrow the original version of the standing pose of ray to potentially add different scales for what I'd assumed an ongoing discussion. That being said, the consensus is pretty much agreed upon when it comes to height, and I'm cool with letting it go too, just wanted to clarify there and apologize for the misunderstanding. I look forward to seeing the completed Ray Moveset when it comes out.

As for Rock and Winged pikmin, I'm not sure if it wouldn't be better to go with Alph if that were the case. In such a scenario, The Rock Pikmin and Winged pikmin would probably best take the roles of the Purple and white ones. As we both have stated though, this would depend on Olimar's Pikmin not being a separate folder to Olimar himself. This issue also applies to Louie if we're to turn his Pikmin into the Dweevils from Pikmin 2.

If the pikmin are unrelated to Olimar's folder, either we would have to make a separate folder for Louie/Alph's Pikmin, or we could simply reuse Olimar's pikmin in an unused manner. Say for example, rather than throwing one pikmin for a side B, Louie whistles and sends the set at the opponent, with the drawback being the Pikmin are more fragile.

Understandable. You are free to post the chart here, just try to be a bit more clear when asking me things. Having to go through the trouble of increasing the quality of my work will make this moveset take much longer to compose, and scaling discussion was brought up because of the fact people believed him being a toy automatically merits him to be as small as Olimar or Kirby. The point of my chart was to prove that him being small not only looks bad, but causes many problems involving the characters balance. And my responses to you were merely to try and cut off the argument before it grew into something stupid like the Ridley discussions. I still believe my purposed height is as accurate as it will get. He only appears to be taller because of the Pod on his back. I can see him being no shorter than just above Luigi's height, and have said this on previous pages. But that is enough about his size.

If you have any ideas to contribute to possible attacks, feel free to share. I still need some help discussing a Pod move.

 

[Shin F.]

As for Rock and Winged pikmin, I'm not sure if it wouldn't be better to go with Alph if that were the case.

If they weren't in Brawl in some form, they're not eligible. Meaning, of course, that characters who came after Brawl are not eligible.

 

[Solbliminal]

You guys know Bulbmin and Pikarrots would be decent replacements right? Louie is a bit of a failure in the game (quite literally) and can very well be portrayed that way by not even plucking Pikmin.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Bulbmin
Do want
Too cute
Sob story
So tender

 

[Solbliminal]

Bulbmin
Do want
Too cute
Sob story
So tender

I feel ya bro. I feel ya. Those Bulbmin were the real heroes of the game. Those Pikmin are wannabe, poser, playa-haters for not bringing along their true blood brothas that get the job done. Buncha thugs them Pikmins.

 

[Chaos Wolf]

You guys know Bulbmin and Pikarrots would be decent replacements right? Louie is a bit of a failure in the game (quite literally) and can very well be portrayed that way by not even plucking Pikmin.

My god, like a super solomar

 

[Solbliminal]

My god, like a super solomar

This. But I'm not sold on Louie. Not enough robots. Mad support for that Sukapon and Ray MK III.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Yeah. Pikmin is like my 4th favorite franchise of all time, and I still don't want Louie.

Bulbmin as some sort of easter egg on Oli though...do want.

 

[Solbliminal]

Yeah. Pikmin is like my 4th favorite franchise of all time, and I still don't want Louie.

Bulbmin as some sort of easter egg on Oli though...do want.

Rare pluck son. That beast be instant sex sweeps.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

I'm busy drooling over kirby's new kicks.....

PMBR thank you, you made it even easier for me to destroy people with kirby now muhahahahhahah.

Pikmin is fine with just olimar.

 

[Solbliminal]

-Issac
-Ridley
-Lyn
-Ray MKIII
-Pichu

^ If this happens, I won't even be disappointed. Golden Sun AND Custom Robo? Yes~ Ridley and Lyn? I'm okay with this. Pichu? Hey as long as I get Ray, I don't even care. Custom Robo was my forgotten childhood yo~!

 

[Saxophoneoftime]

If the PM team really wanted, for Louie they could have the announcer call be a cut off of Luigi's.

It would be stupid as hell but would be funny and could work.

 

[Empyrean]

-Issac
-Ridley
-Lyn
-Ray MKIII
-Pichu

^ If this happens, I won't even be disappointed. Golden Sun AND Custom Robo? Yes~ Ridley and Lyn? I'm okay with this. Pichu? Hey as long as I get Ray, I don't even care. Custom Robo was my forgotten childhood yo~!

That would be perfect for me too, even if they swapped Isaac with someone else for whatever reason.

 

[El Fonz0]

-Issac
-Ridley
-Lyn
-Ray MKIII
-Pichu

^ If this happens, I won't even be disappointed. Golden Sun AND Custom Robo? Yes~ Ridley and Lyn? I'm okay with this. Pichu? Hey as long as I get Ray, I don't even care. Custom Robo was my forgotten childhood yo~!

I'd be okay with this. Though I'd prefer Dark Samus or Skull Kid instead of Lyn, but that may just be because I have no personal attachment to Fire Emblem, having never played it

 

[Anti Guy]

Here's the next tally, approximately 50 voters more than the previous one, for a total of 214. Since we hit the 200 mark, I'll add a little extra analysis on this one.

As usual, it'll be this format, and I've only included characters with at least 10 votes:

Name: Score (+1s, +1/2s, -1s, %)

A Tier(s) (really, each of these characters are in a tier of their own)
Isaac: 115 (114, 22, 10, 93.15%)
Ridley: 90 (96, 32, 22, 85.33%)
Lyn: 63.5 (73, 23, 21, 81.21%)
Ganondorf/Black Shadow: 56.5 (79, 21, 33, 75.19%)

B Tier
Dark Samus: 40.5 (45, 33, 21, 78.79%)
King K. Rool: 37 (34, 32, 13, 83.54%)
Skapon: 34.5 (39, 27, 18, 78.57%)
Saki: 30 (27, 24, 9, 85.00%)
Bowser Jr.: 29 (32, 26, 16, 79.38%)
Masked Man/Claus: 27.5 (24, 13, 3, 92.50%)

C Tier
Skull Kid: 21.5 (17, 15, 3, 91.43%)
Dixie Kong: 20 (30, 36, 28, 70.21%)
Paper Mario: 18.5 (22, 31, 19, 73.61%)
Sami: 16.5 (27, 13, 17, 70.18%)
Tom Nook: 16.5 (15, 19, 8, 80.95%)
Andy: 14 (13, 18, 8, 79.49%)
Samurai Goroh: 12.5 (12, 23, 11, 76.09%)
Ray: 12 (6, 12, 0, 100%)

D Tier
Toad: 3.5 (17, 15, 21, 60.38%)
Tetra: 2.5 (9, 11, 12, 62.50%)
Waluigi: 2 (23, 26, 34, 59.04%)
Hector: 1.5 (10, 17, 17, 61.36%)
Red/Pokemon Trainer: 1.5 (4, 3, 4, 64.64%)

E Tier
Plusle & Minun: -4 (5, 8, 13, 50.00%)
Krystal: -7.5 (10, 25, 30, 53.85%)
Toon Zelda: -10.5 (6, 5, 19, 36.67%)
Pichu: -12 (31, 22, 54, 49.53%)

Sonic Tier
Tails: -26.5 (13, 17, 48, 38.46%)
Knuckles: -30.5 (11, 9, 46, 30.30%)
Shadow: -51.5 (11, 7, 66, 21.43%)

Unpopularity Contest

Since it's pretty easy to see how well characters are doing on the positive end, here's the flip side, ordering them from worst to least by number of negative votes only:

Shadow - 66
Pichu - 54
Tails - 48
Knuckles - 46
Waluigi - 34
Ganondorf/Black Shadow - 33
Krystal - 30
Dixie - 28
Ridley - 22
Dark Samus - 21
Lyn - 21
Toad - 21
Paper Mario - 19
Skapon - 18
Sami - 17
Hector - 17
Bowser Jr - 16
Plusle & Minun - 13
King K. Rool - 13
Tetra - 12
Samurai Goroh - 11
Isaac - 10
Saki - 9
Andy - 8
Tom Nook - 8
Red - 4
Masked Man - 3
Skull Kid 3
Ray - 0

(Note most of the ones toward the end were late entries)

Trends since last tally

-Ganondorf & Black Shadow made a huge leap ahead and jumped out of B tier into their own tier.
-Dark Samus made another big jump to reach 5th place.
-Masked Man fell behind as most of the other characters in its tier jumped ahead.
-Dixie made a little jump while Samurai Goroh fell behind.
-Plusle & Minun lagged so far behind that it dropped a tier, while Toad and Waluigi made huge jumps to bring them out of the negatives.
-Ray is now on the board and doing fairly well.

Thoughts on specific characters
Isaac - Still without contest (though Ridley has been inching much closer). Although this poll is completely unofficial, I think he makes the strongest candidate for most wanted, easily.

Ridley, Dark Samus - Only one of these two will probably get in. But I think there's an extremely strong chance that one of them will (assuming more characters will be added). Ridley has the strong popularity and desire to be added ever since Melee, although he is more difficult. Dark Samus, on the other hand, is much easier to implement as a clone and so is Ridley's backup. Major note: MANY votes were contingent on Ridley making it. So if Ridley was ruled out for some reason, Dark Samus' votes would be much higher. Again, I just want to emphasize that the votes of these two are interconnected and interdependent.

Lyn - With 75% of her voters in favor of her, and amassing exactly 100 voters in support, she's a very strong candidate.

Ganondorf/Black Shadow - Despite the vocal hatred for this set, it's continued to rise. There have been recent movements to suggest making Ganondorf just have an extra stance (similar to Samus) that would allow him to use his sword. That is one option, although that changes the character significantly. It has also been alleged several times in this thread that almost none of the Ganon/BS voters actually care about the Black Shadow portion. I'm going to say this right now that is wrong -- there have been quite a few members who explicitly stated they wanted that F-Zero character, and some saying they voted for it BECAUSE of Black Shadow, not because of Ganondorf. Finally, this entry is a big asterisk because I believe Ganondorf mains should determine how much of a possibility this option since their character would actually get changed (although just aesthetically), whereas other characters would be added from thin air and not affect any current players.

King K. Rool - With 66 votes in favor, 13 against, and 83.54% of his voters supporting him, he's a pretty strong candidate.

Skapon - With 66 votes in favor, 18 against and 78.6% of his voters supporting him, he's a pretty strong candidate.

Sami, Andy - Again, these are two characters that are interconnected, with some votes specifically saying they voted for Sami because she was currently ranked higher. I will say this right now: I am EXTREMELY against this kind of voting, because this poll is supposed to reflect opinion and NOT be a ranking of preference. Each character needs to be treated individually, but because there are some characters like these... I just have to point them out.

Red - I added him to the poll relatively recently because of a little surge of talk in the thread.. but he's really failed to impress at all. Only 11 votes total still. Ray has had a recent surge and already has accumulated 18 votes. Likewise, Skull Kid and Tetra were added to the OP at the same time as Red and have many, many more votes.

Masked Man - While not nearly as bad as Red, he also similarly dried up after his huge surge to the "B tier." After the surge, there have been practically no votes for him since, which let him drop to the bottom of that tier. Perhaps his popularity might be pretty niche as ChronoBound previously suggested.

Pichu - Ugh. Look up controversial in the dictionary and you'll see Pichu. Responsible for messing the discussion MULTIPLE times in this thread, but anyways. As it stands, Pichu is < 50%, which is way below the average support (somewhere around 80%), and is fact only better than Toon Zelda, and the three Sonic characters. Objectively, Pichu is a terrible candidate, and so far it's mainly its role as a veteran keeping it in the game. (Although I'm pretty sure many people will respond with their subjective thoughts)

Sonic characters - I think the numbers speak for themselves. They are the opposite of Isaac, and the numbers show that overwhelmingly, it would be a very bad idea to include any of them.

All the others in between - Did not mention because it doesn't seem like there is strong enough support or dislike for them compared to the two ends of the spectrum. Though Saki, Bowser Jr., and Masked Man are other favored characters, while Plusle & Minun, Krystal, and Toon Zelda are other unfavorable characters.