New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[trojanpooh]

There is nothing likable about him to me. He's not endearing, he's just weird and creepy. I told you I don't like his character design and I don't like the way he talks or acts. So what would there be for me to like?
Oh, and let's never forget his role in FSA where he was directly opposed to you the entire game.

Also, I find it difficult to believe anyone who played WW more than once enjoyed the Triforce quest. It's nothing but a slog where there should have been a dungeon, that incidentally also forced me to interact with one of the worst characters Zelda has to offer. The improved sail and decrease in charts to find and go broke translating is a serious boon; the quest flows better without the charts and the entire game is improved by it. I would never call fixing something stupid botching it.

I can get why someone wouldn't actively like him, but I just don't see anything actively unlikable about him especially considering the series he's featured in. If he was the only goofy character in a series that would otherwise be serious I could understand, but he's not even the weirdest Zelda character by any stretch of the imagination. And again, I don't see how being an antagonist should be a point against him to anyone, plenty of people love villains (and excentric ones at that). Why is Tingle any different. Again, you're entitled to any opinion you have, I just don't understand the nearly global hate towards him.

And I've beaten WW well over 10 times and I hate what they did to the Triforce quest. The Triforce hunt wasn't meant to be played all in one go, you were supposed to work on it in bits and pieces as soon as you get the In-Credible Chart. I usually only had one or two pieces left after the wind temple anyways. I liked the premise of needing to get ancient charts translated by a neutral 3rd party, it made me feel like a pirate hero from a magical story. 90% of the Triforce quest were the mini dungeons anyway, so they honestly didn't cut all that much out except for thematics (ie they changed the tone but left the game largely intact). The Swift Sail was a nice addition, I simply think they went too far in removing the charts from the equation. It's not like you're spending all those rupees on anything else.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I can get why someone wouldn't actively like him, but I just don't see anything actively unlikable about him especially considering the series he's featured in. If he was the only goofy character in a series that would otherwise be serious I could understand, but he's not even the weirdest Zelda character by any stretch of the imagination. And again, I don't see how being an antagonist should be a point against him to anyone, plenty of people love villains (and excentric ones at that). Why is Tingle any different. Again, you're entitled to any opinion you have, I just don't understand the nearly global hate towards him.

Because he's annoying. What part of "I don't like how he talks or acts" is so difficult for you to understand?

If I didn't have to interact with him in WW, I'd probably dislike him less. But I'm forced to free him and deal with his crap. The same goes for FSA. And Oracle of Ages, for that matter.

And I've beaten WW well over 10 times and I hate what they did to the Triforce quest. The Triforce hunt wasn't meant to be played all in one go, you were supposed to work on it in bits and pieces as soon as you get the In-Credible Chart. I usually only had one or two pieces left after the wind temple anyways. I liked the premise of needing to get ancient charts translated by a neutral 3rd party, it made me feel like a pirate hero from a magical story. 90% of the Triforce quest were the mini dungeons anyway, so they honestly didn't cut all that much out except for thematics (ie they changed the tone but left the game largely intact). The Swift Sail was a nice addition, I simply think they went too far in removing the charts from the equation. It's not like you're spending all those rupees on anything else.

Oh were you really? Because nowhere in the game does it say to do that, nor is getting the Triforce even mentioned until after you complete the Wind Temple. Hell, they changed the quest up because it was such a slog.

You're right, they cut most of the charts, which was the most annoying part of the quest. Why, after going through all the mini-dungeons, should I be forced to talk to someone annoying, pay him an exorbitant amount of money, and then sail somewhere and fish around in the ocean? They should have just left it at completing the challenges; frankly, they should have cut the last three charts from the game as well. The only thing I ever really felt from the quest was annoyed at how long it takes to actually be able to make any progress. Even my first time through when I was a kid, it was boring as all hell.

EDIT: Clarifying that I meant getting the Triforce isn't mentioned up to that point. Of course the Triforce itself is.

 

[Shin F.]

I always like the Triforce Quest. Up until that point in the game, I pretty much go straight through the dungeons without much side exploration, then when I get to the Triforce Quest, I sail around, explore and do tons of sidequests while getting them. It's one of the highlights of the game for me. I haven't played WW HD, so I can't say anything about the changes there.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I always like the Triforce Quest. Up until that point in the game, I pretty much go straight through the dungeons without much side exploration, then when I get to the Triforce Quest, I sail around, explore and do tons of sidequests while getting them. It's one of the highlights of the game for me. I haven't played WW HD, so I can't say anything about the changes there.

It's just quicker. Sailing around to random locations and hunting for chests underwater has been cut except for three shards, and the Swift Sail makes those segments (and sailing in general) much more bearable. I never wanna play the original WW again, honestly. The only thing it has over the HD version (to me) is the Tingle Tuner, which was fun.

 

[Banjodorf]

Honestly, the Triforce quest, while decently tedious in the GC version of the game, was incredibly enjoyable and near perfect in the HD version of the game. Because only three charts were required to find the pieces, and the ones that required alot of effort to get to: the one on the ghost ship, the house basement etc. just gave you the piece outright.

I liked that alot better, and it did indeed give me a reason to sidequest alot (the original did too though.)

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

YOU'RE WRONG. >:D

lol

I used Toad as an example because not many people want another Mario character unless it's from Donkey Kong Country (Dixie, K. Rool, whoever else people support from Donkey Kong 64). Funny you reply to me like that, I support him greatly because he'd finish the Super Mario Bros. 2 cast. I made the moveset that Anti Guy linked to in the original post, check it out if you want.

As for Tingle, he'd be weird for Smash. There are better Zelda characters to choose from, like Skull Kid, new Ganondorf, and even Vaati (disqualified) are more popular choices. Skull Kid in particular surprised me since he was only in a significant role in one game.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Mario character

Donkey Kong Country

Nope.

 

[Banjodorf]

^^^

Was going to say.

Come on people. DKC has clearly differentiated itself from the Mario Series. A cameo does not a series character make.

 

[Spire]

I think the only inclusion that would actually make me angry would be someone Tingle-y. Even there, it could be amusing to have a troll character. As much as I don't appreciate some Sonic characters, Pichu, and literally half the characters getting voted here, I would still be happy to get more choices to play with, seeing as I usually try to know how to play each character. It's like getting candy. You can't say no, no matter what the flavor is (except for liquorice, I hate that ****).

Here I am enjoying the thought of Tingle being in PM while eating licorice. I had never actually considered Tingle for cloning until this very moment. I completely forgot about him. How grand! He could possibly escape the clutches of the Zelda series (and its Triforce logo), sporting a nice Rupee icon instead.

If you think about it, Tingle is basically The Legend of Zelda's equivalent of Wario. Greedy, older, pudgy man who dresses similarly to the hero of the franchise. Wario loves coins, Tingle loves rupees. Let's get some Wario vs. Tingle rivalry!

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Nope.

Mario, DK, Wario, and Yoshi games all share the same weird universe. I only used Mario as a catch all term. No need to NOPE me lol

 

[AnOkayDM]

Here I am enjoying the thought of Tingle being in PM while eating licorice. I had never actually considered Tingle for cloning until this very moment. I completely forgot about him. How grand! He could possibly escape the clutches of the Zelda series (and its Triforce logo), sporting a nice Rupee icon instead.

If you think about it, Tingle is basically The Legend of Zelda's equivalent of Wario. Greedy, older, pudgy man who dresses similarly to the hero of the franchise. Wario loves coins, Tingle loves rupees. Let's get some Wario vs. Tingle rivalry!

I like licorice, but hate Tingle. Guess I'm the middle ground!

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Here I am enjoying the thought of Tingle being in PM while eating licorice. I had never actually considered Tingle for cloning until this very moment. I completely forgot about him. How grand! He could possibly escape the clutches of the Zelda series (and its Triforce logo), sporting a nice Rupee icon instead.

If you think about it, Tingle is basically The Legend of Zelda's equivalent of Wario. Greedy, older, pudgy man who dresses similarly to the hero of the franchise. Wario loves coins, Tingle loves rupees. Let's get some Wario vs. Tingle rivalry!

No thank you, I'm prepared to change my minus 1's, and -1 him if he's added to the contenders list.

 

[Spire]

Mario, DK, Wario, and Yoshi games all share the same weird universe. I only used Mario as a catch all term. No need to NOPE me lol

Which is the exact reason I think the Metroid, F-Zero, and Star Fox universes should merge, especially the latter two. I'm totally biased when I say I'd rather Legend of Zelda stay its own, but if Nintendo decided to merge it with Fire Emblem and Golden Sun, at least for a spinoff crossover, I wouldn't complain. Could be interesting!

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Licorice gets stale really quickly after chewing. Then again I don't like gum, so I guess I just don't like chewy stuff in general.

I don't like Tingle either, though he could be fun if every single one of his attacks involved rupees in some way (except his balloon recovery up-B), and if he was OP in Coin Battle mode.

...does anyone either than myself like to play Coin Battle anyway? I think it's fun--it's the perfect kind of match against my casual friends.

 

[AnOkayDM]

...does anyone either than myself like to play Coin Battle anyway? I think it's fun--it's the perfect kind of match against my casual friends.

Coin battles make me wish it was Tom Nook, not the Villager, so that we could have Wario vs. Tom Nook in a money fight.

Other than that, Villager is probably a better choice.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Which is the exact reason I think the Metroid, F-Zero, and Star Fox universes should merge, especially the latter two. I'm totally biased when I say I'd rather Legend of Zelda stay its own, but if Nintendo decided to merge it with Fire Emblem and Golden Sun, at least for a spinoff crossover, I wouldn't complain. Could be interesting!

Mario has interacted in some way with DK (original arcade game, as well as Donkey Kong '94), Yoshi (Super Mario World), and Wario (Super Mario Land 2 and 3) before they spun off into their own games, but have any of the three you mentioned done that kind of thing as well? I don't consider them related, other than they all take place primarily in space.

And since Kirby takes place in space as well, I'd love a Kirby Air Ride / F-Zero crossover :D

 

[trojanpooh]

Because he's annoying. What part of "I don't like how he talks or acts" is so difficult for you to understand?

If I didn't have to interact with him in WW, I'd probably dislike him less. But I'm forced to free him and deal with his crap. The same goes for FSA. And Oracle of Ages, for that matter.



Oh were you really? Because nowhere in the game does it say to do that, nor is getting the Triforce even mentioned until after you complete the Wind Temple. Hell, they changed the quest up because it was such a slog.

You're right, they cut most of the charts, which was the most annoying part of the quest. Why, after going through all the mini-dungeons, should I be forced to talk to someone annoying, pay him an exorbitant amount of money, and then sail somewhere and fish around in the ocean? They should have just left it at completing the challenges; frankly, they should have cut the last three charts from the game as well. The only thing I ever really felt from the quest was annoyed at how long it takes to actually be able to make any progress. Even my first time through when I was a kid, it was boring as all hell.

EDIT: Clarifying that I meant getting the Triforce isn't mentioned up to that point. Of course the Triforce itself is.

All any side character does is talk and behave, I don't understand what it is about the way he talks and acts that upsets, not just you, but so many people. If a handful of people disliked him I'd get it, but this is a near global thing and I simply don't understand it. As for the Triforce hunt, it's obviously intended to be done in bits and pieces. If it wasn't the game wouldn't have given you the chart required to find the maps so early. The whole premise of Wind Waker was sailing and exploring the ocean and those charts helped funnel the player into that sort of mindset. I think a lot of people didn't get the brilliance of it all from a design perspective because the sailing was so slow. Had they added the swift sail but left the quest largely unchanged it would have been perfect. Unfortunately Nintendo took the low road and broke to all the whiners rather than trying to show them why they were wrong.

That's not to say the original wasn't without it's problems, but the charts and Tingle weren't the problems. Slow sailing and a lack of invisible hand pushing you to upgrade your wallet early and explore were the problems. If some sort of little story events were present that had the KoRL asking about the fairy icons in the Tingle Map (wallet upgrades) and encouraging you to use the In-Credible Chart it'd be perfect. You're right, the game never prompts you to explore early. That hardly means that wasn't the intent of the designers though. Zelda games have always been about exploration and for a long time Zelda fans have gotten the idea in their heads that they're about dungeon crawling which is, simply put, wrong. The fact that so many people failed to explore until prompted to is exactly why Nintendo has felt the need to include annoying helper characters in the Zelda franchise for so long. Because so many people won't play the game right unless forced to.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Personally, if it was anyone but someone from Melee, I would be disappointed.

 

[arcticfox8]

Coin battles make me wish it was Tom Nook, not the Villager, so that we could have Wario vs. Tom Nook in a money fight.

Other than that, Villager is probably a better choice.

Nook for PM.
Interestingly enough you get the Tom Nook trophy in Brawl for getting x amount of coins in coin battles.

 

[Giygue]

I'd Like to place my votes on the following characters (not sure if I'm doing this right)
+1 Skull Kid
+1 Ridley
+1 K. Rool
+1 Toad (gotta finish that SMB2 team)
-1 Tom Nook

 

[Solbliminal]

So what? Most people are in the same case as you. I could care less about Roy and Mewtwo in their respective games and don't play as either in Project M. Doesn't make them any less awesome of additions. There are 5 or 6 characters who I regularly play as, so that's 10-12 new match ups for me to learn. Sounds to me like you're just being self entitled and cranky. I get it, I really do, Pichu has almost as many haters around here as Sonic characters do, but I still never complained about the premise of getting new characters. It doesn't matter who they add, anyone they pick will be good for the life cycle of Project M.

I'm not hating on Project M. Or their work. And I probably am being cranky, but I'm far from seld-entitled. If that were the case, I would be one of those jerks who throws ridiculous ***** fits over the fact that we can't use Geno or Simon Belmont. I was considerate when I voted, and I voted for characters that would appeal to the growth of Project M. I mean I've never played a lick of Fire Emblem, hardly enjoyed Pokemon, only really played the Prime series of Metroid, and my friend obsessively used to talk about Golden Sun, but among my most played Smash characters are Marth, Roy, Mewtwo, Lucario, Ivysaur, and I've occasionally played around with both versions of Samus. I'm looking forward to Issac and possibly Lyn, mostly out of curiosity of the characters playstyles. I know all of my friends will be happy with those choices more than me since they have attachments to those series. I just have no open attachment to any thus far and a clone of Sonic (or Eggman cloned from Snake or something) would be ideal for me since I do have an attachment to the series.

While I'm absolutely okay with Tails or Knuckles, I know the series inside and out enough to know they wouldn't offer the playstyle I want to see, but they would be fun additions nonetheless. Shadow was my choice because I felt that he was the exactly what I want out of a Sonic clone/semi-clone. SA2 was my absolute most played game growing up, and seeing Shadow as he is there is far more nostalgic than any Genesis classic I played growing up as a child. It was the first Sonic game to actually intrigue me with narrative's, which built the suspense of actually beating both stories. The final fight with Shadow sent a chill down my spine , and is among the most memorable boss fights in the series. What Generations did with Shadow's boss fight is exactly they type of Shadow I would expect from P:M. A blend of only the best of the characters appearances. Something that I ultimately enjoyed about Silentdoom's Shadow was that it portrayed almost exactly what I wanted out of him. With a bit of P:M flare, this would be my ideal character.

 

[AnOkayDM]

-snip-

He annoys me. I can't explain it. Can you explain every single thing that annoys you? His character simply bothers me and rubs me wrong. I don't like that type of character, so for him to keep coming back is frustrating.

Right, it's so obvious that I don't know a single person who has ever done it that way. It's not a brilliant design choice and Nintendo didn't make the wrong decision. They listened to the fans and one of their main criticisms about the game, and worked to alleviate it. The quest was tedious, simple as that. There is no good reason to put players through those challenges and then make them sail around to random locations and fish out Triforce chunks when they could have just given us the Triforce chunks. The "exploration" there is forced, which it should never be; if a player wants to simply go from location to location in the story, they should be able to. All it serves to do is pad the game's length when another dungeon would have been more interesting (and was planned). If there had been a single piece of dialogue that mentioned getting the Triforce or starting the quest before finishing the dungeons, I'm sure your "obvious" solution would have actually been obvious, but as there wasn't, most people didn't make that connection. Hell, Wind Waker actively prevents you from exploring off the path you're supposed to take until you've finished Forest Haven, which is probably another reason few people thought to go after the Triforce before they were told to.

And by the way, Zelda is about exploring and dungeon crawling. Dungeons are a huge and incredibly important part of the games. I think ALBW got the formula down really well in letting you do the dungeons in almost any order. But games like Metroid are much, much more about simple exploration than Zelda games are. Though I have this exact same problem with Metroid Prime, now that I think about it--collecting the twelve Chozo artifacts was tedious, since by the time it came time to do so I'd only found two, meaning I had to go through the game's extra padding to make any real progress, which is stupid and annoying.

 

[arcticfox8]

stuff

Well if you only have attachment to Sonic characters why are you playing Smash? I know Sonic was in Brawl but there had to be some other drawing factor other than one character in a cast of 39.

 

[Solbliminal]

Well if you only have attachment to Sonic characters why are you playing Smash? I know Sonic was in Brawl but there had to be some other drawing factor other than one character in a cast of 39.

Anyone can play a game they enjoy without characters they are familiar with. Hence why I brought up the characters I play most. While I enjoy the playstyles, I have no attachments to the characters beyond Smash itself.

 

[trojanpooh]

Though I have this exact same problem with Metroid Prime, now that I think about it--collecting the twelve Chozo artifacts was tedious, since by the time it came time to do so I'd only found two, meaning I had to go through the game's extra padding to make any real progress, which is stupid and annoying.

Again, a game victim to people not realizing that you can start the "final mission" extremely early and chip away at it as you go. Prime is much more guilty of straight up messing up this segment, as it never tells you that you can get hints from the pillars in the artifact chamber. I actually didn't know until my 3rd or so playthrough so it was an absurdly slow trudge at the end for me until just recently. That said, I don't blame either game for not flat out telling the player what to do. In games like Metroid and Zelda which are designed around exploration (and puzzle solving aka dungeons in Zelda's case) the player should be expected to go out of their way to discover things. One look at the In-Credible Chart just screams important, it's hardly Nintendo's fault for not flat out telling the player that they should use it. They expected the player to already be using the charts they find to nab treasures, why would this one be any different? You can tell that the fan outcry affected the way they designed future Zelda titles by how effectively they prevent you from ever straying from the planned path. Unfortunately, this design philosophy is toxic. People moaned about how barren Hyrule Field was in Twilight Princess was because the game is constantly pushing you forwards. If you ignore the pull for a few minutes and explore on your own, however, and you'll find that there is actually quite a bit to do in the field. That didn't stop Nintendo from listening to the fan complaints (again) and stripping away any and all overworld exploration from Skyward Sword. Link Between Worlds was a huge leap in the right direction, but I'm curious to see if they can keep the momentum going for the next 3D Zelda.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Well if you only have attachment to Sonic characters why are you playing Smash? I know Sonic was in Brawl but there had to be some other drawing factor other than one character in a cast of 39.

Why did you buy the first video game you ever played despite having no attachments to any character in the franchise of that specific game or games in general? Because you wanted to see if you liked it and if you wanted to start playing more games like it.

 

[trojanpooh]

I can't even fathom the idea of being attached to characters from the Sonic franchise but not care about a single other character from Smash. Like, they're just so...edgy Saturday morning cartoon from the 2000's.

 

[arcticfox8]

Why did you buy the first video game you ever played despite having no attachments to any character in the franchise of that specific game or games in general? Because you wanted to see if you liked it and if you wanted to start playing more games like it.

Well Smash is known for not getting advertised, and tbh when I saw Smash on the shelves it didn't catch my eye. I only played it once a friend recommended Brawl. Iunno, I just feel like Smash is one of those things you hear about from friends/find on the internet. I didn't word the question well enough I guess, didn't mean to offend anyone or come off as aggressive.

 

[Solbliminal]

I can't even fathom the idea of being attached to characters from the Sonic franchise but not care about a single other character from Smash. Like, they're just so...edgy Saturday morning cartoon from the 2000's.

Who said anything about not caring? I enjoyed the Zelda and Mario series games. It is just that the characters I want to see from those games aren't favorable. Which I understand. But I prefer the Sonic series above all else. And as for why..I just have different taste than you.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Again, a game victim to people not realizing that you can start the "final mission" extremely early and chip away at it as you go. Prime is much more guilty of straight up messing up this segment, as it never tells you that you can get hints from the pillars in the artifact chamber. I actually didn't know until my 3rd or so playthrough so it was an absurdly slow trudge at the end for me until just recently. That said, I don't blame either game for not flat out telling the player what to do. In games like Metroid and Zelda which are designed around exploration (and puzzle solving aka dungeons in Zelda's case) the player should be expected to go out of their way to discover things. One look at the In-Credible Chart just screams important, it's hardly Nintendo's fault for not flat out telling the player that they should use it. They expected the player to already be using the charts they find to nab treasures, why would this one be any different? You can tell that the fan outcry affected the way they designed future Zelda titles by how effectively they prevent you from ever straying from the planned path. Unfortunately, this design philosophy is toxic. People moaned about how barren Hyrule Field was in Twilight Princess was because the game is constantly pushing you forwards. If you ignore the pull for a few minutes and explore on your own, however, and you'll find that there is actually quite a bit to do in the field. That didn't stop Nintendo from listening to the fan complaints (again) and stripping away any and all overworld exploration from Skyward Sword. Link Between Worlds was a huge leap in the right direction, but I'm curious to see if they can keep the momentum going for the next 3D Zelda.

I never bothered with the Triforce charts, and I know I'm not alone. It's completely possible to go through the whole game without finding a single one as well. Every other quest for the story is told to you. You are told where to go and what to do through the entire game. And as I said, you don't have free roam until after your second dungeon (third if you wanna count the Forsaken Fortress), so the messages are pretty conflicting. They don't want us to do any exploring at the beginning, but about halfway through we're suddenly expected to explore every corner of the ocean? A simple line of "you're going to need the Triforce, you may as well start searching for it now" right after you get the chart would have done wonders for the people playing the game. As I said, I feel exploration should be a choice, not a forced part of the game. When playing a game, I tend to like doing the main story and little else my first time around, and then maybe exploring after if I feel like it. Maybe that's why I've never finished the first Zelda; there's never even the slightest indication of where to go, and wandering around the overworld is such a pain in the ass when the game is so difficult and everything is deadly; I have no drive whatsoever to finish that game. Zelda II is a bit better in that regard.

Perhaps ironically, I did much more exploration of the overworld in Skyward Sword than I did in Twilight Princess or Wind Waker. When I have something optional to look for with the promise of upgrades or extra loot (pieces of heart don't count for me; I never go looking for them), I do more exploring. I got every Goddess Cube in SS and every Maiamai in ALBW, but never cared enough to get all the Poes in TP. In Zelda games I don't care about completion; I care about the cool stuff I might get. (It helps that for both Maiamais and Goddess Cubes, there was a way to track how many you had left in a particular region.) The thing about ALBW's formula is that it was very effective: you're essentially just dropped into the world, but at all times you know where your next objective is. You can explore beyond that if you care to, but you're never forced to. There is no tedious fetch quest, there's no need to backtrack and cross the world over and over. You have dungeons to do and items with which to do them. I'd love to see the Zelda series consistently be more like that, and not have another poorly-handled Triforce quest to deal with.

 

[trojanpooh]

"you're going to need the Triforce, you may as well start searching for it now" right after you get the chart would have done wonders for the people playing the game. As I said, I feel exploration should be a choice, not a forced part of the game.

Like I said earlier, such a line would have alleviated essentially all the issues people have with the Triforce portion, that being that it shouldn't be played through all at once. There's nothing inherently wrong with forced exploration though. If the game was a little better designed there'd be much more of it, actually (See: Link Between Worlds, Metroid)

You can explore beyond that if you care to, but you're never forced to. There is no tedious fetch quest, there's no need to backtrack and cross the world over and over. You have dungeons to do and items with which to do them. I'd love to see the Zelda series consistently be more like that, and not have another poorly-handled Triforce quest to deal with.

Again, there's absolutely nothing wrong with either of those mechanics. Just because past Zelda games haven't dealt with them in the most graceful ways doesn't mean it can't be done. The issue isn't the forced exploration, it's that over the years the series has become very fragmented and awkward due to conflicting design ideals. Link Between Worlds fixed this by removing all the crap that's been plaguing recent Zelda games, but there just as easily could have been a Triforce Hunt there without it feeling forced. Just at a certain point add Triforce Markers on the map (just like Wind Waker did with the map). Because the game never tells you what you're "supposed" to do next, people wouldn't be far less likely to save it until the end of the game. That's what caused the confusion behind the quest, not the quest itself.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Like I said earlier, such a line would have alleviated essentially all the issues people have with the Triforce portion, that being that it shouldn't be played through all at once. There's nothing inherently wrong with forced exploration though. If the game was a little better designed there'd be much more of it, actually (See: Link Between Worlds, Metroid)



Again, there's absolutely nothing wrong with either of those mechanics. Just because past Zelda games haven't dealt with them in the most graceful ways doesn't mean it can't be done. The issue isn't the forced exploration, it's that over the years the series has become very fragmented and awkward due to conflicting design ideals. Link Between Worlds fixed this by removing all the crap that's been plaguing recent Zelda games, but there just as easily could have been a Triforce Hunt there without it feeling forced. Just at a certain point add Triforce Markers on the map (just like Wind Waker did with the map). Because the game never tells you what you're "supposed" to do next, people wouldn't be far less likely to save it until the end of the game. That's what caused the confusion behind the quest, not the quest itself.

See, but the exploration in Metroid and ALBW don't feel forced, because either the game is built around it or you know your destination(s) at all times. The entire quest could have been fixed if, say, between dungeons the game prompted you to go search for a couple more Triforce shards, especially if you could only access them with the new item you got in that dungeon. That being said, forcing people to get a chart and then dig up the Triforce still would have been annoying, but hey, the quest itself would have been less tedious either way. Future Zelda games should just be designed better for this type of quest if they want to have this quest, and it would go much better. And I think we can be optimistic about that happening; ALBW was partially an experiment for future games, especially the Wii U one, and most people I've heard think it was a very successful one.

Okay, I think we (mostly) agree here at this point. This was an interesting conversation, so thank you. At this point, I have to go to bed. Goodnight all.

 

[Solbliminal]

Have a good night and happy holidays Hero.

 

[trojanpooh]

See, but the exploration in Metroid and ALBW don't feel forced, because either the game is built around it or you know your destination(s) at all times. The entire quest could have been fixed if, say, between dungeons the game prompted you to go search for a couple more Triforce shards, especially if you could only access them with the new item you got in that dungeon. That being said, forcing people to get a chart and then dig up the Triforce still would have been annoying, but hey, the quest itself would have been less tedious either way. Future Zelda games should just be designed better for this type of quest if they want to have this quest, and it would go much better. And I think we can be optimistic about that happening; ALBW was partially an experiment for future games, especially the Wii U one, and most people I've heard think it was a very successful one.

Okay, I think we (mostly) agree here at this point. This was an interesting conversation, so thank you. At this point, I have to go to bed. Goodnight all.

I really believe the issue really is how eclectic the design is. They should have either been more open about what to do in the Triforce quest (like you said, prompt you to work at it at regular intervals) or been more secretive about everything else (the Link Between Worlds method of an open world). In Wind Waker there are extremely mixed messages about the right way to play the game. Aside from the obvious example in LBW, Majora's Mask also does a great job of getting the right mix of mystery and direction. Tatl tells you that you should be in one of the 4 quadrants of the map and then it's entirely up to you to figure out what to do there. Controversial time mechanic aside, the way it segments your area of investigation but doesn't funnel you straight to your next destination is a prime example of good game design, something that Nintendo (along with many Japanese developers for that matter) could definitely benefit from relearning.

But like you said, we pretty much agree on everything (except that you're stupid and I hate you because of your views on Tingle ) and we're also way way way off topic so I'm gonna retire for the Holidays. With any luck some fine standing citizens will pump some life into this thread by the time I return. To all y'all of Christian descent: Merry F***ing Christmas. To all y'all else: Enjoy your random no strings attached day off.

 

[Solbliminal]

Hey trojanpooh. I think I solved our Pichu and Sonic character problems at the same time.

Spoiler

 

[JediLink]

Hey trojanpooh. I think I solved our Pichu and Sonic character problems at the same time.
(Horrible abomination)

 

[Solbliminal]

#Hegetsthejoke

 

[Ninka_kiwi]

I'm still kinda surprised that no one has nominated/voted for Ray 01 from Custom Robo yet. I feel like bringing him up as I've was looking through the OP and surprisingly found he was not in there at all.

Just thought I'd bring him up. If no one wants him then what eves.

 

[Ginge]

I played the store demo for Custom Robo way back when. It was surprisingly fun. Don't know why I never bought the full game. I'd vote for him, but I don't think he'd be popular enough.

 

[l3thargy]

I'm still kinda surprised that no one has nominated/voted for Ray 01 from Custom Robo yet. I feel like bringing him up as I've was looking through the OP and surprisingly found he was not in there at all.

Just thought I'd bring him up. If no one wants him then what eves.

I'd be down for some Ray 01