Neutrals and Counter Picks

[StripesOrBars]

Alright so Florida needs to decide what stages we have as nuetrals and counter picks.

As of right now, people want Luigi's Mansion on and I've even seen more absurd stages like Distant Planet or Picto Chat.

These are ******** ideas people.

Now, everyone seen MLG Anahiem(or was it NY?) where Ken took PC to Mute City for the last match of the Grand Finals(with like $2000 on the line).

PC lost that match, but. . .

Ken did not win that match either, Mute City did.

Let's not let that happen here, please.

In my opinion, these stages are what needs to be:

NUETRALS
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Lylatt Cruise

COUNTERPICKS
Halberd(could be debateable)
Delfino Plaza
PokeStadium1


DEBATEABLE
Frigate Orpheon
Castle Seige
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Pirate Ship
Corneria

Discuss so we can get a set stage layout for upcoming tournies.

Please no one ruin this thread with MK/Snake BS.

 

[SabinX]

as bad as frigate is for tether recoveries, cruise is far worse.

I dont see how cruise could be allowed in this game for its obvious movement/ledge issues.
halberd was fine, poke stadium 1 is ok.. of all the debatable stages I don't see why they cant make it on for a little variety.

we know of the glitches and fall throughs but its very rare. on siege especially.

japes and coreneria are pretty bad this time around. promotes camping and infinites for corneria. japes everyone knows the issues with japes.

what are the main concerns with pirate ship? aside from obstacles which are easily avoidable.

game def. needs a set stage list I agree with you doodah 100% on that. will help things big time.

 

[StripesOrBars]

I started playing Zelda.

Tether recovery is better than Zelda's awesome ranged up b.

 

[SabinX]

but her up b has directional issues and is harder to sweet spot. sheik has both options in the chain or the up B so it gives variety.

getting stuck under blocks on cruise is auto loss for zamus and other tethers.
good counter pick stage or unfari?

 

[juniorv376]

I'd think Lyat could be debateable for neautral or Coutner Pick. Seibrik said it in a post a earlier. Every time that stage is randomed somebody makes a displeasured sound. So it doesnt seem very neautral. Floatier characters seem to have an easier time getting back on, while characters with just a single jump sometimes get gimped by the stage with an awfully times tilt of the stage. Just my to cents. Maybe someone with mroe experience can shed some light on this for me. (I currently you Lyat as a Neutral, but something think it is better of CP)

 

[Galeon]

getting stuck under blocks is autoloss for everyone that's not Pit or Rob since they fill back in almost instantly. And I'm pretty sure the falling through stages only happens if you're rolling in a bad spot/during a bad time. So slightly better than being random.

And how is Pirate Ship even debatable? Tracking bombs that do heavy damage, catapult that can kill people as low as 0 with bad di, camping rock with wall infinites when the ship docks and smaller things like anti-gravity, ship running people over and water shenanigans.

 

[SabinX]

I asked because I am not familiar enough with ship. barely play on it and only read arguments of it.
Makes sense though, thanks galeon.

Puff benefits from water with free wake up on rest. bout it for the Pro's of the water. and sometimes saves gimps.

and yes.. blocks on cruise just suck. I haven't seen anyone prove the reasoning of the fall through but if it is a prominent thing and has major impact on matches then it can't be allowed? wouldnt that just be common consensus?

 

[Kamano]

My personal preferred list of counter picks (neutrals being the same as above):

Pokemon Stadium 1
Rainbow Cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Brinstar
Norfair
Halberd
Delfino
Pirate Ship
Castle Siege
Distant Planet
Mario Circuit


Ones I'm iffy on myself:
Corneria (teams only I think is a suitable solution to fix the camping issue in 1v1's)
Luigi's mansion
Green Greens


Yes I said Distant Planet. I think it's a fine counter pick for a few reasons, and I don't see any glaring issues with it. The bulborb or whatever it's called is big, easy to see, slow, and not really any threat. Even if both players are fighting to knock one another into the thing's mouth, it's still **** near impossible to get a KO that way. The stage has a chance to royally **** any Zamus player's beginning game. If Zamus spawns on the left side, she loses her armor pieces due to the incline letting them roll off the stage before the round starts. I've seen this happen a lot as someone who plays Zamus, and due to how much people seem to hate the armor pieces, this could very easily be a decent counter against her. Walk off sides here are eh. I don't see them posing a real big threat even with a lot of Dedede players around, the stage layout allows anyone to almost completely avoid the walkoff ledge if they're so determined. There'd be far better picks for a Dedede if they're looking for an easy chain grab stage.


I think most people agree Delfino is very close to neutral material, but just barely out there enough that it's an easy counter pick slot. Not much to say here.


Brinstar and Norfair both have the same stage hazard; lava. What it seems a lot of people do not know, however, is that the lava waves on Norfair are 100% shieldable. Even the gigantic one that occurs when the safety bubble pops up can be shielded through with no problems. So that leaves the slow moving lava uprising from below as a potential threat, and the walls of lava from the sides. They kinda hurt, but they're not instant KO's, or even close by any means. Same deal with Brinstar; it's the same stage we've seen before, no real surprises. Stay out of the lava and you're good, easy.


Pirate Ship is another that I feel is a pretty easy choice for a counterpick, along with Halberd. The two pretty much go together thematically; one stage layout that's used for a majority of the game, with a second variation coming in occasionally, and some easy-to-avoid projectiles. My only problem with Pirate Ship is the fact that the ship's front end itself KO's via a nasty spike, but that is something that most players should know about, and it's not hard to avoid unless your opponent specifically takes advantage of a situation to knock you into it. And in that case, it's just someone making good use of the stage.


Rainbow Cruise is fine. It moves slowly, it's got both vertical and horizontal movements, so it doesn't necessarilly cater to those who can jump higher, and it has a few ways to trap your opponent for kills with some precise hits (that's a positive point IMO). A lot of people don't enjoy the stage, but it doesn't have anything that stands out in my mind to disqualify it as a legal counter pick.


Orpheon is simple enough. It's one of the few really small stages that's available, so it gives the heavy characters a chance to shine. The stage hazard (flipping) gives warning, and anyone who heads toward the outside platforms should already be aware that they slide off the stage very quickly, so they're something to be careful about.


Green Greens, I dunno. It's a decent stage, but the main concern here is the bug with the reoccurring explosion effect over the blocks. I haven't played much on the stage, but if anyone can give some estimates of how easy that bug is to replicate on demand in a match, that would likely be the deciding issue on whether or not it'll be legal.

Luigi's Mansion has always kinda bothered me due to the cave of life effect, and the fact that you can only destroy the building from the top down. I don't mind how castle siege's middle transformation stifles projectiles, since it's temporary, but the mansion's ability to do that remains throughout a large majority of the time a match will be played on it, which can lead to stalling/camping on opposite sides of the pillars. I personally don't like it, but I'd be glad to see any well-thought out arguments in favor of it.

 

[Galeon]

yea np, wasn't really directed at you though. was towards first post with pirate ship as debatable. I don't really dislike the stage but I wouldn't be happy about losing a tournament match there because I was bomb-*****.

Pirate Ship does have some good things for lower tier chars, like Ganon. Going in the water against Ganon is your stock. He can also pull you through the ship if you're too close to the front by dropping off the ledge and Forward-B'ing you through the ship into the death spot underneath the ship.

 

[Finch]

I really think poke stadium 1 should be neutral, but if it's not it's w/e.

Corneria and green greens should be allowed for teams but not singles.

Lylat is gay but it's fine as a neutral.

Cruise should be banned probably

Pirate ship is fine.

Why is Luigi's mansion banned?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Castle Siege is a fairer level than Halberd. It's also a very very valuable anti-camper counterpick... If the transformations kill somebody, it's their own fault. sorry, but they fail.

Orpheon, I really don't see a reason to outright ban it. Yeah, it's bad for tethers... awesome. it's only bad for tethers on the one style of stage...the other has the platforms, but again, really don't danger a decent player.

Cruise, I'm sticking by my opinion that it's a fine stage. If it beats one or two characters...that's not a reason to ban it, imo.

Pirate ship, I really like...I like the water factor of it stopping edge guards. I do feel that it will eventually be banned...and I really won't mind...so I'm fine either way.

Japes should be off simply because a land in the water to the left side is an instant death... I liked the stage before, but now it's just bad...because of that whole water mechanic. I don't like that idea....especially if characters have up B's that are vertical rather than horizontal... basically, the stage can kill Marth, Ike, CF, Ganon, etc etc etc. I just hate that about it.

Corneria, I thought we were done with... it was a campy stage before...not a huge deal, but annoying. Now, it has a wall on the fin (before, you couldn't shine infinite or anything on it). Now, you can get one of many wall cgs forever...etc etc etc. That plus the campiness ruins the stage for me.

I'm great with Luigi's Mansion being off. I'm fine with Distant Planet and Pictochat not being considered...I'd be fine either way on those.

One thing, though... what is so wrong with Brinstar? It's still a very good situational counterpick...and it's not gay. It's a set thing that doesn't interfere with the characters too much. so why not a CP?

 

[Galeon]

Brinstar's a great stage to stay close to the other guy with nice small sides. I'd say it NEEDS to be a counterpick.

 

[nevershootme]

For Corneria, the stage edges are pretty low as far as I can say. of course it promotes camping. use g&w and MK as an example and have g&w puff MK's up-B and you'll see.

As for Pirate ship, all the hazards are pretty much an instant kill (front of the boat, bomb, catapult if DI'd wrong). I believe those transitions are random and not set (unlike halbred where it cycles from the hazards to flying around and back), meaning that you go from the tornado (brief period of low gravity) to bombs to tornado again, and then the rocks. either way you still can avoid it

Brinstar, wasn't this as CP in melee, as far as i know there's not much problems with the stage unless otherwise.

Rainbow cruise, no edges to recover what can i say. and the macaroni can screw with people's up-b recoveries as it pops back extremely fast.

Halbred, it's fine, but the stupid arm isn't funny...

 

[StripesOrBars]

I can't believe Distant Planet is even being considered.

Rain, items, and a walk off legde are just way too broken to even be a potential cp.

And Galeon is right for the Pirate Ship.

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

NUETRALS

Lylatt Cruise - Coutnerpick in my opinion. Hardly anyone enjoys playing on this stage, making it feel more like a counterpick for those that do.

COUNTERPICKS
Halberd - No. The stage attacks you.
Delfino Plaza - Yeah, even though it is anti olimar, it is pretty balanced.
PokeStadium1 - Perfectly fine.


DEBATEABLE
Frigate Orpheon - No. Flipping stages killlsss.
Castle Seige - No. Stage change can autokill you.
Jungle Japes - No. Crocs. And falco spike.
Rainbow Cruise - No. Tether recovery gimp soooooo ****in hard.
Pirate Ship - No. The stage blows up.
Corneria - No. Infinites.

And keep luigi's... It's fine. Ask fenrir.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I can't believe Distant Planet is even being considered.

Rain, items, and a walk off legde are just way too broken to even be a potential cp.

And Galeon is right for the Pirate Ship.

Well, the thing is, the walk off ledge isn't really useful for anything. Honestly, if you are put in the position to be grabbed there, you kinda suck.

The rain causes problem for somebody who doesn't want to approach...to me, that's a good thing. I don't think it's that bad, when you can just grab that ledge and double jump around it.

The items...sure, you have a really valid point there...but the items are useless, really...very low damage...very little knockback. kinda nice for a char like Ike against a camper. but it's not that big of a deal.

The main reason I can see to ban the stage is the big thing that eats you, actually...you can get around it, but it's a bad thing when it does eat you...you know? I was just considering the stage as maybe a viable pick... I'm not saying it is a counterpick, but I think it should be considered for what it's worth...


I also agree with Galeon on Pirate ship.

And again, Brinstar kinda needs to be CP. This game is kinda lacking on the small stages that are pickable. That's a reason I'm such a huge fan of Castle Siege...yeah, the statue area is huge, but it beats projectiles anyway. that whole stage is an anti-camper...as is Brinstar...as is Orpheon. That's one reason I support those so much.


EDIT

ALSO... "people don't like the stage" or "somebody sighs every time it comes up" is a really, really, really bad reason to ban a stage. most players hated Battlefield melee...but that didn't take aaway from how fair the level was...it's a fair level. I really don't care if people like it or not

 

[juniorv376]

ALSO... "people don't like the stage" or "somebody sighs every time it comes up" is a really, really, really bad reason to ban a stage. most players hated Battlefield melee...but that didn't take aaway from how fair the level was...it's a fair level. I really don't care if people like it or not

I figured Neautral was considered by by "This stage will be accepted overall", and I noticed Lyat seemed pretty "unaccepted but still played" but I see what you mean. Im sure some characted benefit more then other from the plat forms in BF and it is still Neautral. So then the tilting stage falls under that right?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah, a neutral stage, by definition, is a stage which does not greatly interfere with the match or benefit one character. Notice, I said "greatly"...it may benefit or hurt others slightly...but overall, not much.

I have yet to see anything bad come due to the tilting. Yeah, I know it tilts...but what's the problem?

Some characters can't ledge hop, there...they go under the stage. Ike is included in that...but still, it's not that bad of a problem, if the player understands that. The stage isn't unfair to a single character...

 

[QDVS]

Neutrals:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Lylatt Cruise

Counterpicks:

see above

Banned = Everything else

 

[Gingerr]

I like Distant Planet :/
But just because the slug-thing is cute :/

 

[AfroQT]

DK up scrolling stage please.

 

[Kamano]

DK up scrolling stage please.

Needs more New Pork

 

[KeyKid19]

Luigi's Mansion - A less ******** Skyworld. Still somewhat ******** though. Cave of life + attack decay on pillars + bottom pillars indestructible when top is still around = fail level. Plus I've even seen people get caught under the edge sometimes. I'm not complaining about it being around though since I don't have any projectiles, but I can see how people who use characters with projectiles could find this stage confining to their playstyle. All I have to do with Falcon is camp just on the other side of a pillar and I don't have to worry about projectiles anymore. It's nice for me but unfair imo.

Pirate Ship - The rock part occurs quite infrequently and lasts a short amount of time. The same thing applies to every other interference. Can the bombs even hit you if you're on the top platform? I don't recall ever seeing that. So you have an out. Plus just running around works. The catapult gives plenty of warning before it goes off, and even if you somehow miss it you can still DI it and not die pretty much everytime. I see Halberd and Pirate Ship as essentially equals in terms of playability. The claw is much more interference than anything on Pirate Ship.

Distant Planet - No... just no. The drooping platforms are what really get me on this level. Otherwise I would say it COULD be coutnerpick but overall it's just a really annoying stage. I don't really have a very good argument for this one but I wanted to get my two cents in.

Rainbow Cruise - This level is horrid. Honestly I hate this stage as much as Rumble Falls. While nothing about it is damaging or anything, it still hampers gameplay imo. Flying characters also have a distinct advantage here. I got counterpicked to this level at Manko's tourney last weekend and had two stage deaths. Sure, you could argue that it was player skill to put me in the position to not be able to recover, but when you get stuck under the drop blocks that aren't pass-through from below there's not much you can do (unless you can fly). I dunno. I've had a lot of bad experiences with this stage since Melee and I always find that I spend half of my time just trying not to kill myself instead of focusing on fighting. I would say that this stage is sort of like a less ******** form of Big Blue, but it's still ********. I'd honestly rather play at New Pork City than Rainbow Cruise. At least at New Pork City you can focus on fighting (plus I can chase hit and runners thanks to Falcon's speed lol).

Just my two cents. I'm no stage legality expert though.

 

[Kamano]

Rainbow Cruise - This level is horrid. Honestly I hate this stage as much as Rumble Falls. While nothing about it is damaging or anything, it still hampers gameplay imo. Flying characters also have a distinct advantage here. I got counterpicked to this level at Manko's tourney last weekend and had two stage deaths. Sure, you could argue that it was player skill to put me in the position to not be able to recover, but when you get stuck under the drop blocks that aren't pass-through from below there's not much you can do (unless you can fly). I dunno. I've had a lot of bad experiences with this stage since Melee and I always find that I spend half of my time just trying not to kill myself instead of focusing on fighting. I would say that this stage is sort of like a less ******** form of Big Blue, but it's still ********. I'd honestly rather play at New Pork City than Rainbow Cruise. At least at New Pork City you can focus on fighting (plus I can chase hit and runners thanks to Falcon's speed lol).

Hi Key

<3


(Sorry about that pick btw)

 

[Galeon]

Luigi's Mansion - A less ******** Skyworld. Still somewhat ******** though. Cave of life + attack decay on pillars + bottom pillars indestructible when top is still around = fail level. Plus I've even seen people get caught under the edge sometimes. I'm not complaining about it being around though since I don't have any projectiles, but I can see how people who use characters with projectiles could find this stage confining to their playstyle. All I have to do with Falcon is camp just on the other side of a pillar and I don't have to worry about projectiles anymore. It's nice for me but unfair imo.

Pirate Ship - The rock part occurs quite infrequently and lasts a short amount of time. The same thing applies to every other interference. Can the bombs even hit you if you're on the top platform? I don't recall ever seeing that. So you have an out. Plus just running around works. The catapult gives plenty of warning before it goes off, and even if you somehow miss it you can still DI it and not die pretty much everytime. I see Halberd and Pirate Ship as essentially equals in terms of playability. The claw is much more interference than anything on Pirate Ship.

Distant Planet - No... just no. The drooping platforms are what really get me on this level. Otherwise I would say it COULD be coutnerpick but overall it's just a really annoying stage. I don't really have a very good argument for this one but I wanted to get my two cents in.

Rainbow Cruise - This level is horrid. Honestly I hate this stage as much as Rumble Falls. While nothing about it is damaging or anything, it still hampers gameplay imo. Flying characters also have a distinct advantage here. I got counterpicked to this level at Manko's tourney last weekend and had two stage deaths. Sure, you could argue that it was player skill to put me in the position to not be able to recover, but when you get stuck under the drop blocks that aren't pass-through from below there's not much you can do (unless you can fly). I dunno. I've had a lot of bad experiences with this stage since Melee and I always find that I spend half of my time just trying not to kill myself instead of focusing on fighting. I would say that this stage is sort of like a less ******** form of Big Blue, but it's still ********. I'd honestly rather play at New Pork City than Rainbow Cruise. At least at New Pork City you can focus on fighting (plus I can chase hit and runners thanks to Falcon's speed lol).

Just my two cents. I'm no stage legality expert though.

You seriously prefer camping in one spot and running away so as not to be executed by the stage (Pirate Ship) over platforms that go up and down? (Distant Planet)....

I'm not really pushing Distant Planet but I think people have to make sure they're not promoting or trying to get stages banned just because of how much they like or dislike any specific stage. Should all be in the interest of fairness.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Yeah I was messin with Distant Planet with P3nis and all in all the rain was the most annoying thing.

But I still think it should be banned.

 

[Fenrir VII]

just as long as there are legit reasons for banning a stage or making it counterpick besides "I don't like it"...I'm fine.


Now what about Brinstar?

 

[XIF]

75M .

 

[Galeon]

Yeah I was messin with Distant Planet with P3nis and all in all the rain was the most annoying thing.

But I still think it should be banned.

It's been a while since I played that stage but if I remember correctly, doesn't it only affect the sloping walk-off ledge? I don't remember it affecting the main platform. If anything, the rain would help stop people from camping on that side if they were up in stock. And it's not even like rain really kills you. It just says "Stop fighting here, fight on the stage". If you for whatever reason get caught in it, you automatically grab the ledge and can double jump through the middle bottom of the main stage to prevent edgeguarding/have a fresh start.

The only reason I don't like it is because it makes Snake even harder to edgeguard but that shouldn't have anything to do with the fairness of the stage.

 

[StripesOrBars]

All I know is we played on the stage like 5 matches in a row, and we both died at least once from holding onto the ledge and somehow falling off cuz of the rain(I play Zelda too, so that could've been a reason).

Imma play some more today hopefully.

 

[Galeon]

Yea, the stage really could stay or go. I like it but I don't take it all that seriously. Most of my matches on that stage are usually friendly teams matches with Final Smashes with frequent attempts to sacrifice people to the Pikmin God, so no need to take me seriously when defending how tourney-viable it is.

(still would like to see it on counterpicks a lil tho)

 

[StripesOrBars]

I could definitely see it as a CP in teams.

Even a nuetral.

Infact, all the ****ty banned stages could be "potential" counterpicks/neutrals.

 

[Linguini]

Who gives a **** about the stages, just play and whatever happens, happens.

All stages in the game are fine just leave em all, including that pikmin one with the dinosaur that eats people, cargo tossing people into that **** is fun as hell.

 

[KeyKid19]

You seriously prefer camping in one spot and running away so as not to be executed by the stage (Pirate Ship) over platforms that go up and down? (Distant Planet)....

Distant Planet sucks ALL the time. Pirate Ship's stuff is short-lived and infrequent. TOTALLY different situations.

Kamano: <3 right back at ya. lol I should've banned it when we played but I forgot. Oh well. My bad. You won and I had fun. Well worth the struggle.

Linguini: Ok I'll just counterpick you to Mario Bros. then and ***** out Fox's reflector so you can't kill me unless I REALLY screw up somehow. Even if I did you'd still have a ridiculously hard time killing me. Some stages just need to be banned, and really I'm pretty loose with my stage legality ideas (I LOVE PORT TOWN).

Why can't everyone love Port Town? I always head over to Smash Brawl Rankings whenever I want an epic match there. Honestly the cars are bad but it's not like one person usually survives while the other doesn't. lol They aren't THAT frequent either. You can tell when they're coming REALLY easily (I always know whether the stops will have car intrusions or not). Anyways I just wanted to show some love for Port Town even though I know I'll never win my argument. Oh one last thing, the stage layouts are really good here too. The moving platform is like FD and Halberd had a child and the stopped setups have great designs. Ok I'm done now. lol

 

[StripesOrBars]

Linguini shut up, you don't mean that.

 

[RockCrock]

As much as I don't like brawl, I really don't like seeing noobs counter pick terrible stages for terrible reasons.

My stage theory follows a simple, but logical that makes sense. A stage that hinders the fight between players in ANY WAY should be avoided. Now onto the stages...

NUETRALS
Final Destination - Good
Battlefield - Good
Smashville - Good, although I don't like the moving platform.
Yoshi's Island - Cloud is gay, but what can you do
Lylatt Cruise - Hate it, it spins/tilts, it undeniably messes up recoveries, plain and simple, and although it IS a very neutral stage, it's crap, grounds for a ban.

COUNTERPICKS
Halberd - Although I am generally against anything that disrupts or complicates the fight between players, this stage may be the only exception. The laser gun isn't hard to dodge, but the claw is, and it's far less obvious as to it's target/direction. Woulnd't disappoint me being banned.
Delfino Plaza - The way the stage starts is cool and neutral and all, but the different locations it stops at are gay with water and unever terrain. The transformation periods are akward and disrupt the fight too. Not somewhere I wanna play, wouldn't mind seeing it banned.
PokeStadium1 - The stage has had some minor adjustments, really, my biggest beef is the windmill is now TERRIBLE. The rock transformation promoted camping in melee, and now the windmill transformation does too. Not good.


DEBATEABLE
Frigate Orpheon - Hate it. The stage only has a ledge on one side. The stage flip, although given warning, can screw a player even if they attempt to deal with it. But they shouldn't have to deal with it to being with! Any stage that disrupts the fight should not be played on. BANNED!
Castle Seige - Transofrmation time is long and gay. Walk off edges are terrible. Destroyable terrain hinders a pure battle. Ban it.
Jungle Japes - Jungle Japes?? Are you serious? Debateable? This stage is complete garbage. BANNED!
Rainbow Cruise - Moving stages take away from the fight. I, myself, have not played on the stage even once yet. I hear it screws tether recoveries. Ban it.

Pirate Ship - Hate it. It really angers me that I have to make arguements for such painfully bad stages to be banned. The layout of the stage is horrible. 2 platforms on top f each other? Thats stupid. The spring board on the front kills, and just be a general pain in the *** and stage hazard. Water is bad, getting stucking in it leaves you a sitting duck, it prevents most off stage edgeguards too - not desireable in anyway fro a fair fight. The front end of the ship is a death trap. The back end has sailboats behind it or something, seems like a good place to camp. The canon balls are lame, deal large dmg and knockback. and appear to me as if they fire at random areas on the stage. It crashes into rocks or something gay... Then the ship flies up into the air!! Low gravity mechanics initiate, you can pretty much forget any type of aerial combat at that point, or any fighting at all. Do I really need to go on? BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN THIS HORRIBLE TERRIBLE STAGE FOREVER AND EVER.

Corneria - A camper's best friend. The wall/fin, allows players to live longer than they should. Ships fly in the background and shoot players, ships fly in the foreground and shoot players, guns on the base of the ship shoot players. None of that is desireable. Ban it.
Luigi's Mansion - I'm sick of seeing people counter pick this stage. I really hate it. As mentioned earlier by Kamano (and others im sure), the "cave of life" effect is horrendous, and this stage just amplifies it. Breakable terrin is terrible and annoying. "But you can destroy the stage and make it FD!" yeah, after 30 seconds and 10 attacks maybe. It's something that shouldn't have to be dealt with at all. BAN this terrible stage.
Distant Planet - Bouncing platforms, giant monster, falling item/seed/whatever things, walk-off edges, annoying rain. Bad stage, ban it.


Really.. i'm with Queen/others that said the same thing. If it ain't neutral, BAN IT.

 

[Proteus]

DEBATEABLE
Frigate Orpheon - Hate it. The stage only has a ledge on one side. The stage flip, although given warning, can screw a player even if they attempt to deal with it. But they shouldn't have to deal with it to being with! Any stage that disrupts the fight should not be played on. BANNED!

Only one flip is missing a ledge. The other flip has ledges on both sides. This stage is only debateable because of the flip, and that's infrequent enough that it's not a big deal. Should be a counterpick, IMO.

 

[Kamano]

COUNTERPICKS
Halberd - Although I am generally against anything that disrupts or complicates the fight between players, this stage may be the only exception. The laser gun isn't hard to dodge, but the claw is, and it's far less obvious as to it's target/direction. Woulnd't disappoint me being banned.
Delfino Plaza - The way the stage starts is cool and neutral and all, but the different locations it stops at are gay with water and unever terrain. The transformation periods are akward and disrupt the fight too. Not somewhere I wanna play, wouldn't mind seeing it banned.
PokeStadium1 - The stage has had some minor adjustments, really, my biggest beef is the windmill is now TERRIBLE. The rock transformation promoted camping in melee, and now the windmill transformation does too. Not good.

Err, Halberd and Delfino are both very close to being neutral anyway, minus the slow canonballs/laser/claw on halberd, which are ALL easy to see (even the claw, it leans toward the person it's going to aim for back and forth several times before moving into the foreground to attack) and avoid.

Delfino has some short term walls... that's about the worst complaint I could logically see against it, and since they're brief, I don't see much of an issue.

Poke 1's worst feature is the windmill? How much have you played on the stage, seriously? The windmill is a tiny change, and now that the game's been out long enough for it to no longer be a surprise, shouldn't be an issue. The bigger problem here is the ledges that can pretty consistently trap players or prevent them from grabbing the edge alltogether, and if you recall, Battlefield in Melee did the same to a handful of characters, yet was still neutral material.

Rainbow Cruise - Moving stages take away from the fight. I, myself, have not played on the stage even once yet. I hear it screws tether recoveries. Ban it.

Try it. Yes tethers can get screwed, but that's the point of counterpicks... give your opponent a disadvantage or your own character an advantage. It's fine if you're prepared for it. Expect people like myself to counterpick it simply because it's something many people don't practice on. It's an easy stock or more simply because people ignore it outside of tourneys. Play on it more than 3 times and it's fine.

Pirate Ship - Hate it. It really angers me that I have to make arguements for such painfully bad stages to be banned. The layout of the stage is horrible. 2 platforms on top f each other? Thats stupid. The spring board on the front kills, and just be a general pain in the *** and stage hazard. Water is bad, getting stucking in it leaves you a sitting duck, it prevents most off stage edgeguards too - not desireable in anyway fro a fair fight. The front end of the ship is a death trap. The back end has sailboats behind it or something, seems like a good place to camp. The canon balls are lame, deal large dmg and knockback. and appear to me as if they fire at random areas on the stage. It crashes into rocks or something gay... Then the ship flies up into the air!! Low gravity mechanics initiate, you can pretty much forget any type of aerial combat at that point, or any fighting at all. Do I really need to go on? BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN THIS HORRIBLE TERRIBLE STAGE FOREVER AND EVER.

Corneria - A camper's best friend. The wall/fin, allows players to live longer than they should. Ships fly in the background and shoot players, ships fly in the foreground and shoot players, guns on the base of the ship shoot players. None of that is desireable. Ban it.
Luigi's Mansion - I'm sick of seeing people counter pick this stage. I really hate it. As mentioned earlier by Kamano (and others im sure), the "cave of life" effect is horrendous, and this stage just amplifies it. Breakable terrin is terrible and annoying. "But you can destroy the stage and make it FD!" yeah, after 30 seconds and 10 attacks maybe. It's something that shouldn't have to be dealt with at all. BAN this terrible stage.
Distant Planet - Bouncing platforms, giant monster, falling item/seed/whatever things, walk-off edges, annoying rain. Bad stage, ban it.

Corneria should be fine for 2v2. The lasers from the arwings are weak, and no longer have any kill power. The large gun is... well it's below the stage, and it gives warning. In 1v1 I agree it would get campy, however.

Distant planet is another that people complain about but never actually try playing it seems. The walk off edge is made in such a way that if you get caught on it in a chain grab, you ****ed up. It's not the entire stage, nor is the monster. Super easy to avoid. Seeds are not really a problem, they do what... 2%?

I believe I already did a bit about Pirate ship and Luigi's in my first big post.

Really.. i'm with Queen/others that said the same thing. If it ain't neutral, BAN IT.

As has been said before in other circumstances, banning before giving things a chance is an extremely bad way of going about things. Banning because you personally don't enjoy it is equally bad, if not worse. Neutrals are meant to be stages that have virtually no interfering factors in the fight. Counterpicks are stages with minor quirks meant to be used to hamper your opponent or help your own character. Banning everything right away that's not neutral is the worst choice that could possibly be made if you want this game to continue to be played.

Ban AFTER something is a problem, not pre-emptively.

 

[StripesOrBars]

RockCrock just ended this debate.

"A stage that hinders the fight between players in ANY WAY should be avoided"

Someone close this thread now please.

Anyone who wants these absurd stages on(Luigi's, Pirate Ship, Frigate, Dustant Planet,ect) is seriously ********.

 

[Kamano]

Yeah let's eliminate counterpicks entirely and only play on 5 stages

FD
BF
Smashville
Yoshi's
Lylat


wait no lylat is bad because it tilts

4 stages.


That sounds great