[Nesu] It's so deserted here I could find Criminal Caterpillars. (Post here if you're cool)

[Screk]

Well some lucas's post here. Minus Luco he's a nub cake. kidding Luco

 

[Reckless4Christ]

lol, I woulda said nub-muffin we wuv you Luco!!!

 

[Luco]

lol, I woulda said nub-muffin we wuv you Luco!!!

Awwwww yay! <3

Also, sad that so many Ness peeps dislike Lucas... Yink, Nido, you...

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Lucas =/= Ne ss, Ness got a great style while Lucas only got hair. Anyways, who is better, Ness or Lucas?

 

[Nido]

You are correct, Ness =/= Lucas.
Ness > Lucas.

 

[Luco]

You are correct, Ness =/= Lucas.
Ness > Lucas.

Not according to this:

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/japanese-tier-list.316518/

 

[Nido]

The Japanese are stupid though.

 

[Luco]

The Japanese are stupid though.

You know you don't believe it.

Or if you do, you'll regret it one day. :3

 

[Nido]

Of course I don't believe it.

They're only stupid when it comes to the fact that Ness > Lucas not Lucas > Ness

 

[Luco]

Of course I don't believe it.

They're only stupid when it comes to the fact that Ness > Lucas not Lucas > Ness

Lucas deserves every bit of where he is on that list and I have Jamwa to back m- hey Jamwa, where'd you go? Buddy.... Jamwa.... *gulp*

Ness should be higher on their list IMO but Lucas is fine where he is. :D

 

[Screk]

We all know Lucas will turn into this when he's older

The hair man

 

[Jamwa]

Ness was originally placed higher because of him being marginally more popular than Lucas and thus many more tounament placings.

This conception that Ness is better has stuck around, since people believe the tier list was purely based of MU ratings, and not tournament placings.

Also there aren't many notable early Lucas players other than NinjaLink (so lucas was just assumed to be bad), and Ness had very good players to represent him early on such as FOW and Shaky.

Now that Mekos and Pink Fresh are doing much better, it shows Lucas' potential and versatility in MU's from what was originally thought, and how good Lucas is in dubs (Mekos makes him look godlike).

In Japan, being the highly technical players, many more people picked up Lucas as Lucas has probably the most advanced techniques in the game (also due to Mother 3 being a Japanese game he was more popular).

There are many notable Lucas players in Japan who can perform most of his techniques, which gives him a great edge in MU's such as
vs Wario: Uair -> Footstall cancel (while Wario is in hitstun) -> Dtilt lock -> death
vs Diddy: Banana Lock -> Usmash
vs Any pickup-able projectile: Throw projectile -> foot stall cancel.
vs Lucario offstage: wait for him to recover onstage, then dusterslide -> usmash
Yeah these are gimmicks, but it shows their control over the character opposed to EU/US

And their ability to recover much better means Lucas has no worries getting gimped/edge guarded due to wavebounced zap jumps and dustersliding.

Since Lucas had much more exposure, it was seen that he performs much better in MUs than Ness. I also don't think the Japanese tier list is based of tournament placings so it's pure MUs.

Soz for the essay but w/e Lucas > Ness yo

 

[Luco]

When it comes right down to it, I find Ness/Lucas should probably be close to each other on the tier list somewhere in the middle rather than the lower end. Mid of mid tier is where I envision them eventually going.

 

[Reckless4Christ]

lol I.S, if only you knew how close Lucas's hair is to mine Ness>Lucas
btw, I like Ness better because his defensive style fits me better, aggressive doesn't matter to me because I'm terrible at playing aggressive.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Well, it'd be interesting to see how I play Ness if I ever go Ness against people lol. But impression I got when playing Ness was that he was better than Lucas... Now don't hold me accountable because I am not really PSI kids main lol.

 

[Reckless4Christ]

PSI kids are fun though. And I even mean Lucas when I say that, air game with both of them is super fun. Even though I don't know how to play Lucas in the air lol

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

I think I can summarize how Lucas in the air is.... d-air d-air d-air rinse an repeat. That was the impression I got from what I watched Lucas in APEX doubles lol. Also saw Ness vs. Lucas. I was actually rooting for Ness. Because he got his hat.

 

[Reckless4Christ]

dat hat...lol btw, I have never payed that MU but it always looked fun to play.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

It was quite entertaining to watch. I don't remember who won though. I just remember rooting for Ness that's all...

 

[Kokomaniac]

I dunno about Lucas being better than Ness. I've thought about it a lot actually, and sometimes I really do want to say that Lucas is better simple because of his much safer recovery as well as his super awesome AT (especially using PSI Magnet, **** is OP). But other times I look at Ness and you take into account the really solid air and grab game as well as the sick dair that can lead to so many things. I don't know who to give it to but if the Japanese say that Lucas is better than I don't know...

Also, Ness vs Ness is not at all fun to play. Mirror matchups in general suck for me.
Ness vs Lucas is awesome.
Lucas vs Lucas is meh

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Well, I don't know imo every characters other than ganon can be successful depend on player's ability lol So they might just have better Lucas players than Ness does

 

[Reckless4Christ]

Ness ditto, MK ditto, and maybe 1-2 others are the only fun dittos this game has to offer. But Ness ditto is so weird...

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Falco ditto = boring.... Fox ditto = kind of interesting because I do this when I play Foxes. MK ditto = happens almost every time in tournaments lol. Ness ditto I have yet to see.

 

[Reckless4Christ]

Shoulda seen me vs. Zero the other day, we did a Ness ditto on Halberd, and a MK ditto on PS1 I think. lol, I thought you hated Falco

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Yes, I hate Falco... that bird is annoying lol. Birds be birds and let them eat breads!

 

[Reckless4Christ]

lol, I quit Falco officially btw my Falco is bad, worse than my Fox lol.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Good for you... because..... I would have eaten your Falco alive since it is a bird.....

 

[Reckless4Christ]

But you 3 stocked my Falco once already lol, you need to do it again???

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Falco = must be destroyed because he is a jerk. Wait... this is Ness board lol.

 

[Reckless4Christ]

But that's a bad MU for Ness so you're welcome to post it here!!!

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Hmm, I think a mod might block me out.... wait this board got none! :D

 

[Reckless4Christ]

Yeah, we need to keep it that way...

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

I don't know man.... Anarchy should end

 

[Luco]

Falco ditto = boring.... Fox ditto = kind of interesting because I do this when I play Foxes. MK ditto = happens almost every time in tournaments lol. Ness ditto I have yet to see.

I versed Nido and V in a bunch of friendlies at BAM. The MU is either incredibly fun or intensely painful, depending on whether you're the one being pressured or you're the one doing the pressuring. Personally I love it, but everyone around me hates the Ness MU. But expect at least some frustration when you feel as if all your attacks are being beaten by theirs even when you're doing the exact same thing with the exact same timing. :o

Basically mirror MUs tend to go to the better player. Not always though - I have a gigantic amount of experience in the Lucas - Lucas MU which helped me in my match against Jamwa who doesn't have a lot of experience in the ditto. Because of that, i'm genuinely not sure who's better out of us. There's more complex things going into it like how we do against better players (my opinion changed on this as I went along - Originally I thought he was far better but now i'm not sure and maybe maybe who knows etc. ) but that's the basic gist.

To clarify, right now it's a toss up between jamwa and myself for best Lucas in Australia, which isn't that prestigious considering there's not many other competitive Lucas mains in Aus anyway haha.

Anyway, Lucas is way more than Dair. It just so happens that's a fantastic move in doubles because it sets up for stuff. Insingles Lucas has PK fire and Fair/Nair/Bair/Uair. In the full air (as in way above stage), Dair is actually probably one of his worst moves because it can be predicted and punished easily and it puts him in to fastfall unless he did it when his momnentum was carrying him up and it has ending lag if he's too close to the ground and the rest of it. It's still good for if he's going upwards when he does it though.

I should also point out that Lucas doesn't have to be aggressive at all. He can retreat PK fires and reatreat Fair and heaps of stuff! :o

In the match you saw, it would've been shaky vs. PF or Fae or someone. Shaky won that set. :o

I thionk the japanese have lucas higher because they never had the top Ness players we had - Yink, FOW, Shaky, etc.

Yink doesn't play anymore and FOW switched mains (though he occasionally plays Ness) but Shaky's still going strong and shows that Ness deserves to rise.

In all, I think Ness and Lucas should be together in the higher end of mid tier, interchangeable with one another, or if one must be higher then probably Ness atm because he has better results n' stuff.

On that other subject, i've wanted a mod for this place for a while. Keeps things active, because although we have this general discussion, it's carried by like 5 of us and that's about it. We don't do as many MU discussions and stuff like we used to because our top players don't post much anymore. It reaaalllyyyy sucks.

Then there's the Lucas boards which are more or less dead because they have no mods.

And mods don't have to be strict rulekeepers. They're often just another poster for the most part and they keep stuff alive. Like, take a look at Xiroey. Without the ribbon you wouldn't even know he's a mod (<3). :o

Also Falco's not that bad IMO. -2's about right for him. :3

Sorry for the uber long post, I just had a lot to respond too.

 

[Screk]

Luco going in with the long post's

 

[Luco]

The laptop I did it on allowed for so many typos...

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Hmm, well I don't think top players post anymore on any of the character boards... May be except for Seagull Joe who seems to be relatively active on Wolf Board....
Well, Lucas = dair
Oh and I completely agree that while mirror MU tends to go to better players but sometimes it doesn't due to lack of experience in mirror MU. I mean, to know what your char is capable of is one thing and really playing the MU is the other imo.
And yes, I don't believe I have seen a vid of Japanese Ness lol.
Eh, still doesn't change the fact that falco dittos are boring lol
Oh yes, mods don't have to be strict rulekeepers or so they want you to think

 

[Screk]

Fsann JPN Ness main

He put in some of his fails as well

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

gonna watch it SOON(tm) I watched it... good stuffs there lol almost makes me want to train my Ness harder lol.

 

[Screk]

Nyoho(Lucas) vs Fsann(Ness)

this is to the whole Ness and Lucas JPN tier thing