[Nesu] It's so deserted here I could find Criminal Caterpillars. (Post here if you're cool)

[Luco]

No way it can be top 20 all of meta knights moves cover the first 15

Hehe.

Nair is a great move though. Yea not the best but it's not half bad. And i've been told that Fair is a bad move to get too comfortable with so i've begun to use it a little more. It's weird how well it works for characters like Marth, for such small range but yeah...

I find Nair and Uair generally have great priority, Fair is awesome for range, Bair is nice for something quick but punchy and Dair is nice in a few rare situations. =)

In fact, Dair is really great if you're coming in to land and the opponent is in the air and has a laggy or short (as in no range) Uair. If they AD and you've timed it correctly, you'll land on the ground without more lag than usual and can immediately SH Nair or something. ^_^

 

[Z'zgashi]

I personally think Ness' fair is his best move, and nair is either 2nd or 3rd (pretty close with uair, not sure which is really better). After that, probably bair/bthrow/side b, but im not 100% on that. Ness mostly has a **** ton of 'pretty good' moves and no actual bad ones or amazing (and by amazing I mean one of the best moves in the game) ones imo. His worst moves are probably like... Neutral b just due to it being more situational than any of his other moves or utilt just cuz it doesnt really have much use with how Ness' jumps work and having Nair/Uair/etc.

 

[Luco]

Actually Ness' Fair is often called an 'amazing' move from my experience but I can see where the person who said it was bad to get too comfortable with was coming from: It's good but it can still be predicted and punished if thrown out all the time.

Ness' PK Flash is interesting... it's actually a pretty good move to use against chars who have difficulties offstage (sometimes) because with their limited options they often have trouble defending against it whilst keeping themselves within reach of the ledge.

Personally I think Nair is better than Uair because it's far less Laggy. Uair it's like in some situations if they dodged it you're just like "Oh darn that's not good" whereas I find it happens less with Nair because of both how quick yet long-lasting it is and the whole double aerial shuffle stuff. :3

 

[Z'zgashi]

Unless the move is like, top 20-25 in the game, I wouldnt call it amazing, and Id be willing to bet Ness' fair falls around the 30-40 range at best.

 

[Luco]

What would you say the best 25 are, out of curiosity?

Don't say MK's entire moveset btw because some of his moves aren't actually that great (for instance downB... it's okay but not great IMO)

 

[Z'zgashi]

lol no its not all MK's moveset. This isnt in a specific order, but Id say something like (and mind you this is literally off the top of my head so im sure im forgetting stuff):

Spoiler

Meta Knight - Up B
Meta Knight - Neutral B
Meta Knight - Down Smash
Meta Knight - Down Air
Ice Climbers - Throws
Ice Climbers - Down B
Olimar - Side B
Olimar - Down B
Diddy Kong - Down B
Snake - Neutral B
Snake - Up Tilt
Falco - Neutral B
Falco - Jab
Falco - Down Throw
Marth - Up B
Zero Suit Samus - Down Smash
Zero Suit Samus - Side B
Pikachu - Up B
Wario - Down B
King Dedede - Down Throw
Wolf - Back Air
Peach - Down B
R.O.B. - Neutral B
Yoshi - Neutral B
Samus - Z Air

 

[Luco]

Falco's jab? :/

I think Falco's jab is on the 'good but not incredible' list. But that's just my opinion. I'd probably replace it with like DK's Bair or something.

The rest I can mostly see I suppose.

I've still always thought Fair deserved a spot amongst some of those though. I consider Ness' Fair to be on the level of DK's Bair, Wolf's Bair, Kirby's Bair, Ike's jab, etc.

Umm, but it's probably just me I s'pose.

 

[Jamwa]

uh you need Lucas' nair, it's safe on shield

 

[Luco]

uh you need Lucas' nair, it's safe on shield

Nah, Lucas' Nair is really safe on shields and is great for combos BUT it gets outranged way too easily. It's good but not amazing IMO. :/

 

[Kokomaniac]

I don't really like Lucas's nair, its range is too tiny for me to do anything with most of the time, but it is satisfying to get a full one off

 

[Jamwa]

Nah, Lucas' Nair is really safe on shields and is great for combos BUT it gets outranged way too easily. It's good but not amazing IMO. :/

im sorry but you're incorrect.
yes it has little range, but that is not an impediment for Lucas, and so getting outranged is not an issue

 

[Tikao]

Lucas' nair is awesome
it's like Ness' "short ranged and more neutral than forward" fair

 

[Susi]

Does anybody know anything about Ness vs Lucario?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Falco's jab? :/

I think Falco's jab is on the 'good but not incredible' list. But that's just my opinion. I'd probably replace it with like DK's Bair or something.

The rest I can mostly see I suppose.

I've still always thought Fair deserved a spot amongst some of those though. I consider Ness' Fair to be on the level of DK's Bair, Wolf's Bair, Kirby's Bair, Ike's jab, etc.

Umm, but it's probably just me I s'pose.

Dude, Falco's jab is frame 2, meaning it beats out EVERY jab besides ZSS/Squirtle's, it combos INTO ITSELF, its safe on shield, it combos into grab which he can then CG you with, it has a disjoint and CLANKS WITH SMASHES, and its overall one of the very fastest moves in the entire game. His jab is godlike and EASILY the best jab in the game with no competition, definitely better than Ike's jab. Just watch videos of guys like Keitaro to see just how broken that jab is. And DK's bair I definitely debated, but the thing is, his leg still has a hurtbox and he has landing lag, so I instead put Wolf's bair because it comes out faster, has no landing lag at all, has more disjoint that DK's (not more RANGE, but more disjoint, meaning its harder to punish), and is completely safe on block if you land with it.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Getting outranged is not an issue? What?

 

[Screk]

I think I should show you guys my face maybe just maybe

 

[Z'zgashi]

I think I should show you guys my penis maybe just maybe

 

[Jamwa]

Getting outranged is not an issue? What?

oh my god, lucas is the king of getting in peoples faces, since almost EVERY character has to approach him (even snake, pit, falco). his nair is actually a mini nado, its op. when you jump you dodge moves like mk's dsmash and then they get punished with 16%. if they DI out of nair, then you get a free Uair or utilt for more %.
lucas' jab is also frame 2 i think, so you can nair > jab before you other persons punishing move even comes out.
if they just hold shield, you can walk away or do a pivot grab to mix things up, or even retreating stutter step an fsmash which shield pushes must characters too far away to punish (even MK if he doesn't buffer a dash attack).

it also makes people furious to get hit 8 times by one move.

also falco's jab is OP. you can deny peoples jump with it, and if they dont DI away and drop down then they take tons of %.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Oh yeah I LOVE nair jab it's so ridiculous

 

[Reckless4Christ]

Riho, that was a panic thing, never speak of this again...
Also it was the first Pika I ever played...

 

[Screk]

Gashi I wouldn't mind

 

[Reckless4Christ]

^ O.o*walks away*
@Riho-I know the PKFs were badly timed, but like I said, it was a panic thing. I incorporated nair into my play after this set as well.
Alsothatlastdeathondelfinomakesmefeelsoretarted...

 

[Eagleye893]

I saw some discussion about best moves somewhere up there?

PSI MAGNET!!!!! TOO GUD!

 

[Reckless4Christ]

^ in doubles that is...

 

[Kokomaniac]

Pk flash best move IMO

 

[Luco]

oh my god, lucas is the king of getting in peoples faces, since almost EVERY character has to approach him (even snake, pit, falco). his nair is actually a mini nado, its op. when you jump you dodge moves like mk's dsmash and then they get punished with 16%. if they DI out of nair, then you get a free Uair or utilt for more %.
lucas' jab is also frame 2 i think, so you can nair > jab before you other persons punishing move even comes out.
if they just hold shield, you can walk away or do a pivot grab to mix things up, or even retreating stutter step an fsmash which shield pushes must characters too far away to punish (even MK if he doesn't buffer a dash attack).

it also makes people furious to get hit 8 times by one move.

also falco's jab is OP. you can deny peoples jump with it, and if they dont DI away and drop down then they take tons of %.

Since when does Snake have to approach?

His Nair's good but i've been punished for it because when i try to go in I get outranged. I have to use PK fire to do stuff but if i'm committed to using Nair it's like... it's like... :/

I love the move, don't get me wrong... I just don't think it's better than Ness' Fair and if Ness' Fair isn't in the top 20 moves (though I still think it's kinda debatable), then I seriously don't think Lucas' is.

Put it to you this way: If Lucas' Nair is so OP, why don't people use it like they use Ness' Fair as anything to talk about in MUs and tier list stuff and the rest of it? Go convince them and see what they say. I need more proof that it's OP before I can start saying it is because my use of it must just be incorrect if you're right.

 

[Jamwa]

Since when does Snake have to approach?

His Nair's good but i've been punished for it because when i try to go in I get outranged. I have to use PK fire to do stuff but if i'm committed to using Nair it's like... it's like... :/

I love the move, don't get me wrong... I just don't think it's better than Ness' Fair and if Ness' Fair isn't in the top 20 moves (though I still think it's kinda debatable), then I seriously don't think Lucas' is.

Put it to you this way: If Lucas' Nair is so OP, why don't people use it like they use Ness' Fair as anything to talk about in MUs and tier list stuff and the rest of it? Go convince them and see what they say. I need more proof that it's OP before I can start saying it is because my use of it must just be incorrect if you're right.

you can outcamp snake, just dodge the grenades and pkfire him lol..

Ness' fair is not safe on shield lol, unless it is, but even if it is you can't land behind people and eliminate their ability to shield grab.
also Ness' SH is not as low as Lucas', so he can't effectively shield pressure and is suited to a more spacing game.

 

[Luco]

you can outcamp snake, just dodge the grenades and pkfire him lol..

Ness' fair is not safe on shield lol, unless it is, but even if it is you can't land behind people and eliminate their ability to shield grab.
also Ness' SH is not as low as Lucas', so he can't effectively shield pressure and is suited to a more spacing game.

Ness' Fair, if spaced properly is safe on most chars, save a few (I think like DDD can just grab him with his oh-my-gosh-what-is-this-bird grab range). If Lucas tries to get close to someone by rushing in, he gets grabbed out of Nair straight away lol (because lol grab super armour :/ ).

'just dodge grenades and do x'... it's not that simple dude, otherwise Snake wouldn't be where he is on the tier list. You can't dodge nades every time and he can just spot dodge the fires himself (it won't happen every time either but he has a superior camping game to us IMO) if he doesn't want to blow himself up. Snake is one of the few chars that can effectively camp us because his projectiles aren't energy-based and he can spam them until they get us. Someone like Falco finds it more difficult because we are, along with Ness, two characters he can't just go 'lol lasers all day long' on.

Don't get me wrong, Lucas probably has it easier than some people when it comes to 'nades because of his mobility but from my experience we still have issues with him, not to mention the close up game of grabs and tilts.

 

[Jamwa]

Ness' Fair, if spaced properly is safe on most chars, save a few (I think like DDD can just grab him with his oh-my-gosh-what-is-this-bird grab range). If Lucas tries to get close to someone by rushing in, he gets grabbed out of Nair straight away lol (because lol grab super armour :/ ).

'just dodge grenades and do x'... it's not that simple dude, otherwise Snake wouldn't be where he is on the tier list. You can't dodge nades every time and he can just spot dodge the fires himself (it won't happen every time either but he has a superior camping game to us IMO) if he doesn't want to blow himself up. Snake is one of the few chars that can effectively camp us because his projectiles aren't energy-based and he can spam them until they get us. Someone like Falco finds it more difficult because we are, along with Ness, two characters he can't just go 'lol lasers all day long' on.

Don't get me wrong, Lucas probably has it easier than some people when it comes to 'nades because of his mobility but from my experience we still have issues with him, not to mention the close up game of grabs and tilts.

this is incorrect

 

[Kokomaniac]

Instead of calling each other wrong with little but anecdotal evidence, let's maybe find some videos or hard data to prove our points

 

[Jamwa]

how about a money match

 

[Luco]

Dude, Lucas has trouble forcing approaches on characters like Snake. His Nair just isn't on that level IMO. How is it? You can't just say Lucas forces approaches because you can't just dodge nades and stuff. Why would snake be where he is on the tier list if everybody could just do that? :/

His Nair is great yes I agree. But I don't think he gets put in a position often enough for it to be so amazing as to be in the top 25.

Prove me wrong if you want. I'd literally LOVE to be proven wrong for obvious reasons but... I just don't see it. :/

No MMs (I have no money lol) but friendlies are ok. =)

 

[pidgezero_one]

I think if Red X and i ever get married there will be a smash bros side event at our wedding

 

[Reckless4Christ]

I take back what I said about PSI Magnet because it keeps characters like Fox/Falco from camping.
But about Lucas' n-air, I have to agree with Luco. I mean, the range on that thing makes it like, "Oh, n-air! Something I can shieldgrab!" And even if you don't get punished, it's not like you get too much from the mo\ve anyway.

 

[Luco]

I think you can get a lot from the move but its lack of range gives it serious issues.

@Koko: It's hard to use video evidence to prove this. The best I can currently offer you is that I spoke with Yink and she agrees with me in that a) Lucas has trouble forcing approaches in cases such as Snake (and some others) and b) his Nair probably isn't on the same level as those other moves

I dunno how to say it. All I can really say is that to me it's obvious it's not that fantastic of a move, though it is good. I've been punished for it many times... then again i'd be one to talk: I find it hard to punish myself but Lucas' standing grab is silly and Ness' standing grab doesn't have that amazing range... and i'm not that good a player so...

Yea. :/

I need evidence from you Jam that it's that amazing. I never see it brought up in Lucas' favour, I never see it brought up at all that much... like, give me something more lol.

 

[Screk]

After me seeing Galeon play in person ( was a while back )I can say lucas is pertty crazy. I don't know much about him but he cray cray

Also playing with Florida atm : http://www.twitch.tv/screkness/old#

 

[Luco]

After me seeing Galeon play in person ( was a while back )I can say lucas is pertty crazy. I don't know much about him but he cray cray

Also playing with Florida atm : http://www.twitch.tv/screkness/old#

Oh I still totally think Lucas is awesome and a decent mid tier and everything. I just don't think Nair is a top 25 move s'all. If I can be shown otherwise then i'm happy to be proven as such =D

@ZZgashi: I've been told that Lucas' jab is a jab 2 as well. Can't find fine the frame data thread but i was told by Sunnysunny (told me he memorised everyone's jab speeds so he could be mad at Lucario's)

This would make Jamwa correct on his jab speed.

 

[Screk]

So I hate lucario's hit boxes =P

 

[GOG]

Screk pls. XD

 

[Screk]

Screk pls. XD

Silence you !