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Ness

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Akenero

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Ness's recovery is terrible for 4 reasons, the larger turn radius means more of a chance to get it removed, his angles feel a bit off to me, he can't move aerially afterwards, and it's very slow.
 

Simna ibn Sind

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imo
its very situational. character-wise.

for instance, wolf vs. c. falcon

wolf already has a reflector, so why pick it up? also, what good is it against c.falcon, or ganon, dk, marth, ike ect... who don't have a projectile?

also, it will most likely only affect those who don't know what it does, and when they DO find out what it does, how easy is it going to be for them to be tricked by it again, ya know?
it really gets on my nerves when the mother series is pissed on. there are plenty of other interesting potential items in the game.

the franklin badge was fun but it was something I only used 1 or 2 times before I stopped using it altogether.
Regarding wolf vs. falcon:

Wolf gains an advantage from having the franklin badge because it acts as an automatic reflector he doesnt have to use. When he uses his downB he must be using downB but with the badge he can do anything and still reflect. Another simple reason for picking it up is to keep your opponent from getting it. Also, Captain Falcon has at least the same projectiles everyone else has: Items.

Regarding the effectiveness of the badge and fooling people:

The "effect" of the badge is not necessarily to make projectiles fly back at people and hurt them. That is AN effect, but the more prominent effect is that it stops people from throwing projectiles at you. It effectively removes any projectile game your opponents have for its duration. <---That is a strong effect.

There are some situations where the frankline badge is pretty much useless(such as marth vs. marth and the badge is the only item turned on), but none of those situations are what you described above.
 

Crocovile

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Man I hope they fix Ness in Smash U/3DS, I never understood why he becomes helpless after doing PK Flash in the air.

On the subject of PK Thunder, why not give it a little more oomph, like raising its damage or knockback to make it a bit more dangerous to intercept, or maybe ( and this is probably a dumb idea) make it like C. Falcon's up-B, with a PKT1 that's used in the air doesn't make Ness helpless if it hits an opponent.
 

grizby2

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Regarding wolf vs. falcon:

Wolf gains an advantage from having the franklin badge because it acts as an automatic reflector he doesnt have to use. When he uses his downB he must be using downB but with the badge he can do anything and still reflect. Another simple reason for picking it up is to keep your opponent from getting it. Also, Captain Falcon has at least the same projectiles everyone else has: Items.

Regarding the effectiveness of the badge and fooling people:

The "effect" of the badge is not necessarily to make projectiles fly back at people and hurt them. That is AN effect, but the more prominent effect is that it stops people from throwing projectiles at you. It effectively removes any projectile game your opponents have for its duration. <---That is a strong effect.

There are some situations where the frankline badge is pretty much useless(such as marth vs. marth and the badge is the only item turned on), but none of those situations are what you described above.
ok good points there.

regarding wolf, his reflector isn't that hard to use, and its better than the badge since it makes projectiles fly back at faster speeds anyway. (and most reflectors have VERY little start-up time :| )

ive just never felt challenged by the item when an opponent has it on.
opinionated yes. but im a monster on the battlefield. franklin badges give me one more reason to punch some guy close up in the face!
id rather have the ruler or protractor from earthbound as items, which make you skip your turn. a useless item, but hey... at least you used a ruler :awesome:

Man I hope they fix Ness in Smash U/3DS, I never understood why he becomes helpless after doing PK Flash in the air.

On the subject of PK Thunder, why not give it a little more oomph, like raising its damage or knockback to make it a bit more dangerous to intercept, or maybe ( and this is probably a dumb idea) make it like C. Falcon's up-B, with a PKT1 that's used in the air doesn't make Ness helpless if it hits an opponent.
ness's recovery seems to be his biggest issue. I wonder what it'd be like if his PKT2 acted like a ganon/c/falcon grab instead of a normal hit..
 

Simna ibn Sind

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ok good points there.

regarding wolf, his reflector isn't that hard to use, and its better than the badge since it makes projectiles fly back at faster speeds anyway. (and most reflectors have VERY little start-up time :| )

ive just never felt challenged by the item when an opponent has it on.
opinionated yes. but im a monster on the battlefield. franklin badges give me one more reason to punch some guy close up in the face!
id rather have the ruler or protractor from earthbound as items, which make you skip your turn. a useless item, but hey... at least you used a ruler :awesome:
Its true that the fox/wolf reflectors are very fast, but the franklin badge turns wolf from a character with one reflector that pretty much just reflects and also has a weak, low-range attack attached to it to a character with a reflector on all of his attacks(and even his non-attacks).
 

RoxburyGuy58

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It wouldn't be bad if Smash 4 Ness is similar to Brawl Ness, but a few things that would really help him out:

- Give the kid a bit more speed (in regards to running and overall attack speed)
- Make PK Thunder like it was in Melee where enemy attacks can't destroy it
- Remove infinite grabs, or at least don't screw him and make him have such a long grab release animation
 

grizby2

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I think the reason ness was slower than lucas was because lucas actually had the option to run, while ness could only walk at his default speed (unless he ate a skip sandwich).

game reference I guess, but more speed for Ness wouldn't hurt.
 

Simna ibn Sind

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I think the reason ness was slower than lucas was because lucas actually had the option to run, while ness could only walk at his default speed (unless he ate a skip sandwich).

game reference I guess, but more speed for Ness wouldn't hurt.
What kind of speed? Jump speed? fall speed? horizontal aerial speed? run speed? attack speed? roll speed? all of the above?

And you may be right about Ness being "slower" than Lucas a nod to the Mother games. In Earthbound, Ness is the best at everything....except speed where he is the worst.
 

grizby2

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What kind of speed? Jump speed? fall speed? horizontal aerial speed? run speed? attack speed? roll speed? all of the above?

And you may be right about Ness being "slower" than Lucas a nod to the Mother games. In Earthbound, Ness is the best at everything....except speed where he is the worst.
run speed in particular.
and yeah, in Earthbound he was usually the last person to use his turn in-battle. im pretty sure lucas was the same in his game as well. its just that lucas could run while outside of battle. kinda like how they gave pokemon trainers the hold-b-to-run utility.
 

grizby2

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double post.

I just had something on my mind.

playing ness the other day, I was thinking of how they could make PK flash better without changing its physics drastically, So I began to observe everything that was wrong with it.
I came to a simple conclusion: ness is too easy to approach when using the move or even starting the move.

think of this: how easy would it be to approach ness if PK Flash didn't shoot out vertically from his head, but instead, stayed where the middle of his body is and wasn't affected by gravity when he casted it? its not so easy now is it?
this way he protects himself from all directions if you don't move it. since it wouldn't be affected by gravity, he can freely send it to where he wants without much hassle (id also make it so backwards horizontal mobility is just as good as forward mobility). and just to give him better protection, the hit box of PK Flash should retain its fully charged size no matter how much it was charged (an uncharged PK flash would still do little damage mind you).
 

Simna ibn Sind

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A slow move will be punishable...that's just how slow moves work. I think PK Flash has its utility as an edgeguard(which could use a bit of improving perhaps) since you can take the time to use a slow move while your opponent is off stage. What I think does need changing is uncharged pk flash. Currently the only reason to use uncharged pk flash is because you changed your mind about using charged pk flasha nd you wanna stop using pk flash all together. If uncharged pk flash were made a little faster and a little larger then it could have use as an anti-air attack.
 

grizby2

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A slow move will be punishable...that's just how slow moves work. I think PK Flash has its utility as an edgeguard(which could use a bit of improving perhaps) since you can take the time to use a slow move while your opponent is off stage. What I think does need changing is uncharged pk flash. Currently the only reason to use uncharged pk flash is because you changed your mind about using charged pk flasha nd you wanna stop using pk flash all together. If uncharged pk flash were made a little faster and a little larger then it could have use as an anti-air attack.
I would never ask for a strong move to become fast and unpunishable.
yeah , a slow move should be punishable without a doubt, but not so punishable that you'll only ever use it to edgeguard, and even while doing so, takes more time to arm than it does for the other player to recover back on the stage.:glare:
even as a move for edge guarding, it can be dodged easily purely because it TAKES so long, and that it has a predictable arc generally speaking. I have an easier time landing luigi's down taunt and ganons warlock fist.
the slowest moves are usually charged smash attacks, other moves that need to be charged can be used later (DK punch, Samus shot, R.O.B.'s gyro ect...) and take awhile longer to fully charge (if not the same amount of time).....but ness doesn't get that privilege! his move can't be saved for later, and it has to be used for edgegaurding.
its at this point where Pk flash ,while at its peak, meets its biggest fault.
please allow to explain in detail.

imagine you're knocking the opponent off stage. in order to successfully land a fully charged pk flash, you're going to have to start the attack immediately. lets not kid ourselves, you have to hope you're in the right position to use it: not so close to the edge where the enemy would have already gone passed the point of your fully charged pk flash while recovering, and not too far away so that pk flash can reach off the stage to hit the opponent. if you're fighting a decent player who has seen the move before, then they'll know EXACTLY where it'll end up when its fully charged, and they'll avoid that spot, knowing that they're safe from you because, unlike other charged moves, this move causes ness to become a duck without any legs. in other words, ness isn't there to counter their arrival back to the stage.
you know that little area where pk flash does end up when its charged?

diamond = ness
blue = uncharged
yellow = semi charged
red = fully charged

the opponent won't be in the red spot unless they're REAAAALLY having a bad time recovering, probably to the point that they might die even trying. it takes around 2.5 seconds for pk flash to be fully charged, and that's more than enough time for the other player to react to it.

now what if pk flash spawned in the middle of ness and wasn't affected by gravity?


diamond = ness
blue = uncharged
yellow = semi charged
red = fully charged
Edit: note that the circles do not represent the size of the hitbox, it only indicates how far pk flash can travel

as you can see, pk flash just became much more flexible, and the opponent has to think when to time their recovery, as opposed to just avoiding a small spot.

even if the move still takes a long time to arm, at least this way ness's options with the move have increased.

anyway, sorry it took so long to convey this idea! I hate to be the "fat man" on this thread, but that's what I am I guess~ :rolleyes:
 

Jedisupersonic

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Ever since I played Earthbound [which is after I played Smash 64 and Melee] I always wondered why Ness never had his signature PK Rockin, As a move.
 

grizby2

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I was totally talking about PK Flash in Melee.
....oh you~...


nah, I meant the one from brawl.

I'm not sure, but maybe because you can name the move in earthbound....for example: PSI Cyndi Lauper
maybe, then again you can name ness, ness's party members, his favorite food, and in this case, his favorite "thing" anything you want. even if you choose the "don't care" option, theres a pool of default names in pulls from.
its kinda like how you can name Link, but he just has that standard name "link", so no matter who you're talking to, they know who you're talking about. im willing to believe most people refer to it as PSI Rockin' more than anything else.
 

Speculator

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Anyone think Ness will be revealed soon due to the eshop release of Earthbound?
Well, tomorrow is Friday, and Olimar was revealed on a Friday too. I don't think that means anything special, but it certainly gives people a burst of information and something to talk about over the weekend if a character is revealed at the end of the working days.

I suppose it depends how quickly they want to pump out character confirmations. Two in two weeks would be pretty heavy going, and then people might start expecting a character reveal every week. Plus, Mother 2 has already been out on the Japanese Wii U eShop for months, so I don't know if it's as big of a deal as the release of Pikmin 3.

My instinct is that they chose to conduct the Olimar reveal last week simply because they could time it well with the Japanese release of Pikmin 3. I don't think a tie-in will be the case for every veteran fighter, and I think now is too soon to go revealing more straight away. I think an optimistic view would be to expect maybe one veteran reveal per month.
 

grizby2

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Anyone think Ness will be revealed soon due to the eshop release of Earthbound?
I wouldn't bet on it, but its a possibility. it'd be nice to have more people play Mother 2. the More Mother fans the better! that way, ness won't be the character that they don't know **** about again... XD
 

MasterOfKnees

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what do you mean? Earthbound was released in japan as Mother 2 . or do you mean the virtual console release already being in japan and this release being in the Americas?
Yeah, I don't think he'd time Ness' announcement with the release of Earthbound now when it has been out in Japan for quite a while. As I said, I doubt he might even know that it's being released over here right now and how big of a deal it is, they've had Mother 2 for quite a while now.
 

Fire Emblemier

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I haven't played EB in a long time, glad to have it on the E-shop, got it the day it came out. Hopefully, both Ness and Lucas are in this game.
 

Simna ibn Sind

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SIND#745
If Ness' upB is not PK Thunder and PK Thunder isnt a projectile that I can control and I can't hit myself with that projectile to create a high-damage, high-knockback recovery move then I'm going to **** my pants.


For anyone interested: The censored word above is shit.
 

grizby2

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it'll be strange to have a new Up-B.
im gonna miss the times when someone dodge rolls to avoid my PKT1 but ends up getting hit by my PKT2 instead. :rotfl:

im fooling around with ness right now in brawl. yo-yo is sooo weak! although I love how I can psyche someone into getting hit by D-smash since it starts behind ness rather than in front like all other D-smashes.
and reflecting stuff with the bat is so fun~
 

grizby2

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Hey its an improvement from the number 1 worst move in Melee aka Ness' downsmash
they definitely did improve it. IMMENSELY!
I popped in melee and tried it out.
holy moly. it hit as high as 11% as low as 2% on a fully charged d-smash...U-smash wasn't that much better.:facepalm:
I DID noticed it was easier to walk the yo-yo off the stage with U-smash than it was in brawl.

but damn, if its gonna stay that weak, they could at least give it the speed it deserves. or if its gonna stay that slow, then give it power. tick for tack I say.
 

DRM4R10

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I think that Ness should maybe have a Slingshot as one of his moves? and that he should hold a Teddy Bear as his shield animation. I also think PSI Rockin' should be one of his moves, maybe to replace PSI Fire? Also I think that PSI Thunder should be buffed to make the projectile not destroyable (IE You cannot use an ice shot to stop it).
 

grizby2

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I think that Ness should maybe have a Slingshot as one of his moves? and that he should hold a Teddy Bear as his shield animation. I also think PSI Rockin' should be one of his moves, maybe to replace PSI Fire? Also I think that PSI Thunder should be buffed to make the projectile not destroyable (IE You cannot use an ice shot to stop it).
your avatar gets me EVERY time XD

Villager ironically already beat ness to the slingshot.
Plush bear wouldn't fit his character, and he actually DOES have a natural shield unlike most characters in the game now that I think of it. The Plush bear would make a NICE item though! it could sometimes take hits for you until the opponent smashes it "into a pile a fluff".
PSI fire (while not one of his actual moves) is one of his staple smash bros moves, i believe it'll make a return. Psi Rockin however can (and should) replace his Final smash.
 

SuperSmashBrother

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I love Ness. He is pretty cool to me and since he is one
of the original 12, I expect him to return, of course with an
improved moveset. Actually I expect the rest of the
original characters to return: Ness, Luigi, C.Falcon,Jigglypuff
and the beloved Yoshi who should have been confirmed by now.
 

DRM4R10

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your avatar gets me EVERY time XD

Villager ironically already beat ness to the slingshot.
Plush bear wouldn't fit his character, and he actually DOES have a natural shield unlike most characters in the game now that I think of it. The Plush bear would make a NICE item though! it could sometimes take hits for you until the opponent smashes it "into a pile a fluff".
PSI fire (while not one of his actual moves) is one of his staple smash bros moves, i believe it'll make a return. Psi Rockin however can (and should) replace his Final smash.
well if they included Paula (doubt they would) then I think she should have it as when you rescue her, she is seen with one and If I recall correctly, she has one in her room?
But yea, PSI Rockin' could work as a final smash, as I didn't really like PSI Starstorm but I don't really care about final smashes (if you're still stuck, look at my avatar) so that's why I wanted it as a special move or something.
But I think Ness could still have the slingshot, because several characters have the same weapon: (Kirby and King Dedede hammer), (link, marth and meta knight sword) but you could argue that they're more obvious weapons that the character would have. I dunno I think you're right because even so, none of the characters I mentioned above debuted in the same game.
 

Fire Emblemier

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I hope Ness is revealed soon, I just want to get the veteran's over with for reveal, so I can expect the new characters to come closer to the game's launch. Truth be told, in Melee, I knew nothing about Ness, but by the time of Brawl, I knew so much about him, Mother is in my top 3 Nintendo Franchise, it sometimes is even number 1, like right now. I don't care for over-representation, so I'm even rooting for 3rd rep with Ness, and Lucas.
 

grizby2

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dedede and Kirby are in the same game actually.
well if they included Paula (doubt they would) then I think she should have it as when you rescue her, she is seen with one and If I recall correctly, she has one in her room?
peach already has a pink dress and a frying pan. so paula would be a peach clone :troll:

when you get paula into your party, she comes with a Plush bear (her sprite even goes over to grab it). the one in her room is in a present box i believe.
she wouldn't need the bear as a shied either. while ness has shield and Power shield, Paula has PSI shield (protects party from PSI).
im personally rooting for Ana as a female mother rep, so im part of a huge minority :rolleyes:.

I hope Ness is revealed soon, I just want to get the veteran's over with for reveal, so I can expect the new characters to come closer to the game's launch.
me too. i just want to see Ness's Rosy cheeks in glorious HD Embarrass
 

NessOnett

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peach already has a pink dress and a frying pan. so paula would be a peach clone :troll:
Someone wants to get slapped.

But in all seriousness, Sakurai knows the community would have a duck if he tried to cut Ness. Same as they will flip if he drops Mewtwo after semi-confirming him. So I'm not all that concerned. He may have dropped the ball with brawl a bit, but he's no fool. And Nintendo values fanservice above all else.(Now if we can only get some more support for Geno...)

As far as his moveset is concerned, I REALLY hope it stays identical. Obviously speed, power, priority, and hitstun numbers are going to change as they do for every iteration. So arguing over them feels like a somewhat moot point, as any that were even the slightest problem in melee will be thrown under a microscope(and probably were long ago). Nothing is wrong with the moves in and of themselves, just slightly(not really) subpar in their implementation last time around(melee, brawl doesn't exist for me). If people don't like PKT, they can honestly just get out. That is Ness' defining characteristic. If you want a generic warp back to the platform, there's a dozen plus other characters with such recoveries. It's a high risk high reward move that may not be the best 'recovery' but is a very solid 'move.' And I really can't take seriously anyone who tries to argue with a straight face that his ^B should be Psi Teleport.
 

grizby2

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Someone wants to get slapped.

But in all seriousness, Sakurai knows the community would have a duck if he tried to cut Ness. Same as they will flip if he drops Mewtwo after semi-confirming him. So I'm not all that concerned. He may have dropped the ball with brawl a bit, but he's no fool. And Nintendo values fanservice above all else.(Now if we can only get some more support for Geno...)

As far as his moveset is concerned, I REALLY hope it stays identical. Obviously speed, power, priority, and hitstun numbers are going to change as they do for every iteration. So arguing over them feels like a somewhat moot point, as any that were even the slightest problem in melee will be thrown under a microscope(and probably were long ago). Nothing is wrong with the moves in and of themselves, just slightly(not really) subpar in their implementation last time around(melee, brawl doesn't exist for me). If people don't like PKT, they can honestly just get out. That is Ness' defining characteristic. If you want a generic warp back to the platform, there's a dozen plus other characters with such recoveries. It's a high risk high reward move that may not be the best 'recovery' but is a very solid 'move.' And I really can't take seriously anyone who tries to argue with a straight face that his ^B should be Psi Teleport.
peaches A-combo is already a series of slaps :troll::troll:

if they make PKT less gimp'able, then great.


im all for high risk and high reward, but i don't think it should constantly be in your face when you need to get back onto the stage. PK flash already serves as a high risk/reward move anyway. theres a fine line when something becomes too much of a risk where its not even worth trying to get the reward because the reward is almost unattainable unless you're up against a child with a mental case. not saying that PKT is in that category. moves like Jiggly's down special are what im getting at.

im pretty sure ness's moveset won't change too drastically. im hoping his moveset stays the way it is as well.
 
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