Ness

[L9999]

Ness doesn't need moveset change, he just needs to get buffed and make PK Thunder2 un-gimpable.

 

[Yink]

Honestly I don't mind a moveset change, but I'd really enjoy seeing PKT being more reliable offstage and no grab releasing, but we just have to wait. I think he works well enough as it is, and there's no way I'd ask Sakurai this late into Ness' lifespan of Smash to make his moveset more relatable to his games.

I think I'm more excited to see Ness' design over anything else right now (which is hysterical, because he'll probably look exactly the same, haha.)

 

[Eight Melodies]

I thought the red collar from the American model for Ness that was in the fake leaks was neat and I'd like to see that for real in this game.

 

[camzaman]

Ness should NOT get a move change, it's already so fun. Keep PK Thunder, but give him an alternate recovery move or make PKT less gimp-able.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Is the soul reason Ness isn't more competitive because of his recovery? I love the character but don't know the ins and outs.

 

[Frontiers]

I agree i hope his up b is something else

 

[Eight Melodies]

Is the soul reason Ness isn't more competitive because of his recovery? I love the character but don't know the ins and outs.

There are other things, like the extra release grab frames in Brawl, but recovery is probably the biggest issue across all 3 games.

 

[Swift Fox]

I somewhat have a feeling Ness will be shown off in next character reveal this month. He's one of five character (along Captain Falcon, Wario, Ice Climbers, and a star fox character) that I don't think will be hidden characters this time. The four will likely be hold off for E3 and he can be used as filler pre-E3 because he's the least hype (sorry fans!).

 

[PKNinja95]

When Ness charges his bat it should make this effect over his bat

Causing fat damage

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

He's one of five character (along Captain Falcon, Wario, Ice Climbers, and a star fox character) that I don't think will be hidden characters this time.

Wario and Ice Climbers aren't hidden.

 

[Gune]

When Ness charges his bat it should make this effect over his bat

Causing fat damage

Or even better that could be his new FS like marth's.

 

[Swift Fox]

Wario and Ice Climbers aren't hidden.

He's one of five character (along Captain Falcon, Wario, Ice Climbers, and a star fox character) that I don't think will be hidden characters this time.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

UpB being eatable and not putting Ness into freefall won't work because you are still falling during the move and there would still likely be recovery frames just from his 'use' animation ending. Characters like Pikachu/Samus would be able to chump him easy by just literally falling down above him and eating every PkT he throws unless knockback on PkT1 gets much bigger. Then when the distance is terminal, just double-jump->upB and call it a match. 100:0 in opponent's favor with that, and it's not even stage-reliant.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

UpB being eatable and not putting Ness into freefall won't work because you are still falling during the move and there would still likely be recovery frames just from his 'use' animation ending. Characters like Pikachu/Samus would be able to chump him easy by just literally falling down above him and eating every PkT he throws unless knockback on PkT1 gets much bigger. Then when the distance is terminal, just double-jump->upB and call it a match. 100:0 in opponent's favor with that, and it's not even stage-reliant.

We aren't trying to make him ungimpable. Everyone should be gimpable at least a little.

But yeah Ness doesnt fall that fast when he is using upB. That in combination with the fact that higher percent = higher knockback opponents will have a hard time just sitting on his head until he dies, but even if some characters can do that at some percentages they will end up having to take like 50%+ damage to do it. At that point they may as well have just jumped out and hit you instead of eating your recovery.

The big draw of eating Ness' thunder is that, unlike when you hit someone, Ness doesnt get his upB back after you eat it. If he just gets another upB after you eat it then you were better off just attack.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Not really. Eating Ness's PkT1 even if he gets it back is still preferable to letting him back on the platform because the PkT is helping his opponent get back toward the platform all the while further endangering Ness himself. Who cares about eating ~40-50% when it gets you a stock?

 

[Frontiers]

I enjoy thunder but having another move double as a slight recovery option would be great ex:Mario's cape

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Not really. Eating Ness's PkT1 even if he gets it back is still preferable to letting him back on the platform because the PkT is helping his opponent get back toward the platform all the while further endangering Ness himself. Who cares about eating ~40-50% when it gets you a stock?

No I'm not saying that the increased knockback is gonna lead to them dying....im saying that its going to lead to a longer distance they have to travel to eat your thunder again

 

[thesage]

Give him some sparkles during all of attacks to increase his range and priority.

 

[thegreatpike]

Since I don't think Lucas will be in the game, it would be nice if Ness got some of Lucas moves like his u-smash or PK-Thunder that goes through opponents.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

If PK Thunder acts like Lucas' then I'm leaving.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

If PkT1 can't be eaten and Ness can recast it, it also leads to potential stalling situations if it halts downward movement. Spam it under FD/BF and run the clock. That's also no good.

 

[Topplox]

If lucas is cut, i would imagine his B moves would be saved for Ness's customization moves. Lucas's up B would certainly be a helpful buff for Ness. But really there is no reason to assume Lucas is being cut at the current moment, could be in the game already. All i can say for certain is Ness will be. Also, from what I have heard, Ness dosent learn PK starstorm, is that true? I heard his special move was PK Love, what did it do in his games?

 

[PKBeam]

Ness learns PSI Rockin', Poo learns Starstorm. 2nd and 3rd most powerful PSI in the game, but at the highest level Starstorm is a better move.

 

[Second Power]

Three things I'd like to see changed for Smash 4

• Recovery buff - Don't care how, but needs to happen.
• Grab Release - Non horrid amount of frames. He shouldn't be infinte'd by almost every character.
• DJC - Should return. 'nuff said.

Anything else (quicker PK Fire, PK Jump returning, longer range on anything) would just be a bonus.

Edit: Oh, and a Ninten alt would be cool.

 

[camzaman]

UpB being eatable and not putting Ness into freefall won't work because you are still falling during the move and there would still likely be recovery frames just from his 'use' animation ending. Characters like Pikachu/Samus would be able to chump him easy by just literally falling down above him and eating every PkT he throws unless knockback on PkT1 gets much bigger. Then when the distance is terminal, just double-jump->upB and call it a match. 100:0 in opponent's favor with that, and it's not even stage-reliant.

I would support some kind of yoyo air throw move like the snake replacing his forward throw, but otherwise leaving the matchup alone. He really needs a 2nd recovery move.

 

[PKBeam]

Three things I'd like to see changed for Smash 4

• Recovery buff - Don't care how, but needs to happen.
• Grab Release - Non horrid amount of frames. He shouldn't be infinte'd by almost every character.

Ness is only infinited by Donkey Kong and on stages with (permanent) walls.
They can incorporate PSI Teleport.

 

[Second Power]

Ness is only infinited by Donkey Kong and on stages with (permanent) walls.
They can incorporate PSI Teleport.

Oh? I had just taken that from one of the wikis, so sorry about that. I'm a P:M player, where that doesn't happen.
PSI Teleport would be an improvement, and I love teleporting moves, so I'd be down for that.

 

[Pazzo.]

Ness is a favorite video game character of mine, and he's fun in Smash... but that recovery... I've been trolled so many times by my opponent and myself.

 

[PKBeam]

Well. At least it's not as bad as Link's. Or Zelda/Ganon's.

 

[Eight Melodies]

Well. At least it's not as bad as Link's. Or Zelda/Ganon's.

Sakurai confirmed for hating The Legend of Zelda.

 

[TheSkuxxedOne]

I think if Lucas were to be cut from the game, they should import some of his moves into Ness's moveset in order to buff him up for the new game.
E.g. Ness's yo-yo up smash changed to Lucas's crazy PK up smash. OR. Ness's neutral air to Lucas's.
I made a video about it for anyone that's interested...

 

[PKBeam]

Ness's Usmash and Nair were the same for three/two games. Honestly he wouldn't feel right if he copied some of Lucas' moves.

 

[Hong]

Ness was the VERY FIRST character I got into with Smash Bros after I had unlocked everyone and spent time figuring out how the fighters work. It was a given, since EarthBound is the most life-changing game I had ever played back in the 90s and I had kept it close to heart ever since. I wanted to get good with him so badly just because I actually liked Ness. And I did, I played Ness as my character of choice against fellow students for the entirety of the school year, up until the Melee days.

Disappointed am I in the state of the character, and the attitude people have towards changing him. Technically you could have improved Bowser by just tweaking his stats, but I am the majority would say they are happier with the character they have made out of him. It is honestly disrespectful to discredit what the developers could do with Ness. They can still maintain the core themes of a character and keep him loyal to the source material. Instead of seeing this as you having to get used to some new moves, think of this as something that should have happened a long time ago. Let them change the character. Let's get something that will work when the game ships, and Ness players young and old can get into and play well.

Ness' design was a failure from the beginning. He went from being the best to one of the worst characters during the life span of SSB64. He would maintain his position for every entry since. It's because both the Mother series characters are fundamentally flawed and grow worse and worse as players improve. Ness' strongest normals all depend on his anatomy or pulling out rather tight disjointed hitboxes, and there is only so much they will be willing to distort his tiny body to make it work. As players improve, it is not only easier to keep Ness out of range from doing more than just f-airs, but also easier to attack a character who struggles to defend himself. Even without the grab release shenanigans, Lucas rapidly decayed in power in Brawl, but he still had something going.

Project M made Ness and Lucas much more powerful with immense increases in speed and power. It took very drastic changes to make it work, but it can be done. In a fast-paced environment, a good Lucas can find a way to get on-top of someone and compensate for his little reach. It's not the only way to fix the problem, however. I had similar ideas to what @ TheSkuxxedOne posted. Not only can Ness take the most out of what Lucas had, but the ability to change Special moves means players can choose which variant they liked. That said, I would keep the yo-yo. It help Ness to feel like a Mother series representative, but it is more unique among the cast in general. A combination of more speed and more telekinesis in his attacks can go a long way in helping Ness both deal pressure and fend it off.

These are the changes I would make to his specials:

1. Combine PK Flash and PK Thunder to the B button. PK Flash is now a projectile that launches like PK Thunder did, grows in strength the longer it is in motion, and explodes on release. Detonating it on Ness or hitting him on the bum still works as a recovery option. As an added bonus, let Ness cancel it with R.
2. PK Teleport is now his up special. He runs (even while airborne) in the direction he is facing before fading away, and re-emerges to appear where you direct him to. Just like any other teleport, but with a unique world-wrapping graphic.
3. PSI Magnet can stay, but could use improvements to be useful in more matchups. Perhaps solid projectiles could be vaporized and then absorbed, or it can inherit Lucas's zapping properties. Make it as powerful as a shine, an infinitely better move in 9/10 situations that are not doubles.
   
4. Of course PK Fire would remain as is, but you can switch to Lucas style PK Fire with custom special moves should you wish.

 

[PKBeam]

Ness was the VERY FIRST character I got into with Smash Bros after I had unlocked everyone and spent time figuring out how the fighters work. It was a given, since EarthBound is the most life-changing game I had ever played back in the 90s and I had kept it close to heart ever since. I wanted to get good with him so badly just because I actually liked Ness. And I did, I played Ness as my character of choice against fellow students for the entirety of the school year, up until the Melee days.

Disappointed am I in the state of the character, and the attitude people have towards changing him. Technically you could have improved Bowser by just tweaking his stats, but I am the majority would say they are happier with the character they have made out of him. It is honestly disrespectful to discredit what the developers could do with Ness. They can still maintain the core themes of a character and keep him loyal to the source material. Instead of seeing this as you having to get used to some new moves, think of this as something that should have happened a long time ago. Let them change the character. Let's get something that will work when the game ships, and Ness players young and old can get into and play well.

Ness' design was a failure from the beginning. He went from being the best to one of the worst characters during the life span of SSB64. He would maintain his position for every entry since. It's because both the Mother series characters are fundamentally flawed and grow worse and worse as players improve. Ness' strongest normals all depend on his anatomy or pulling out rather tight disjointed hitboxes, and there is only so much they will be willing to distort his tiny body to make it work. As players improve, it is not only easier to keep Ness out of range from doing more than just f-airs, but also easier to attack a character who struggles to defend himself. Even without the grab release shenanigans, Lucas rapidly decayed in power in Brawl, but he still had something going.

Project M made Ness and Lucas much more powerful with immense increases in speed and power. It took very drastic changes to make it work, but it can be done. In a fast-paced environment, a good Lucas can find a way to get on-top of someone and compensate for his little reach. It's not the only way to fix the problem, however. I had similar ideas to what @ TheSkuxxedOne posted. Not only can Ness take the most out of what Lucas had, but the ability to change Special moves means players can choose which variant they liked. That said, I would keep the yo-yo. It help Ness to feel like a Mother series representative, but it is more unique among the cast in general. A combination of more speed and more telekinesis in his attacks can go a long way in helping Ness both deal pressure and fend it off.

These are the changes I would make to his specials:

1. Combine PK Flash and PK Thunder to the B button. PK Flash is now a projectile that launches like PK Thunder did, grows in strength the longer it is in motion, and explodes on release. Detonating it on Ness or hitting him on the bum still works as a recovery option. As an added bonus, let Ness cancel it with R.
2. PK Teleport is now his up special. He runs (even while airborne) in the direction he is facing before fading away, and re-emerges to appear where you direct him to. Just like any other teleport, but with a unique world-wrapping graphic.
3. PSI Magnet can stay, but could use improvements to be useful in more matchups. Perhaps solid projectiles could be vaporized and then absorbed, or it can inherit Lucas's zapping properties. Make it as powerful as a shine, an infinitely better move in 9/10 situations that are not doubles.
   
4. Of course PK Fire would remain as is, but you can switch to Lucas style PK Fire with custom special moves should you wish.

It's PSI Teleport.
What Ness wants atm is at least one ranged, ground move that isn't so slow, his only ranged moves are his smashes and his only fast moves are his Jab and tilts.

If you wanted a shine, you can change his Down-B to Shield (Beta), that's more representing of his moveset and it fits nicely.

In Brawl, Ness could really use Lucas' PKF. It eliminates his recovery problems almost entirely. Probably too late for it now tho.

And grab releases GTFO.

Btw you guys shouldn't really assume that Lucas is cut. A lot of things could change.

 

[Hong]

It's PSI Teleport.

I'm well aware of how it appears. That said, I thought only Magnet and Shield were "PSI" in the Japanese version, and all other PK abilities are prefixed by "PK". That is why a few abilties in Smash Bros should be "PSI" something or another but are instead "PK. They probably just kept it since the Japanese VA does the trick otherwise.

Btw you guys shouldn't really assume that Lucas is cut. A lot of things could change.

Not assuming this. I just think it's a good idea.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

PK Thunder is too cool to remove and changing it to Lucas' PK Thunder changes the dynamic of it a ton. If its buffed that's cool, but replacing it would just be horrible.

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

I personally have never really considered Lucas to be a "clone" of Ness to be honest. For the most part, their special moves are only similar to one another through name alone but the actual effects of the special moves encourage very different usages. Their normal movesets are completely different with only their forward smashes having any comparable similarities.

I've always liked Ness more than Lucas myself but I don't really see any reason why Lucas would be cut if favor of keeping Ness. Lucas isn't really as relevant as he used to be, but that has never had any sort impact before that I've seen.

 

[PKBeam]

I'm well aware of how it appears. That said, I thought only Magnet and Shield were "PSI" in the Japanese version, and all other PK abilities are prefixed by "PK". That is why a few abilties in Smash Bros should be "PSI" something or another but are instead "PK. They probably just kept it since the Japanese VA does the trick otherwise.
Not assuming this. I just think it's a good idea.

It's a mistranslation. If you look at Mother 1's English version, you can see "PK Fire", "PK Thunder" etc.

All offensive moves are prefixed "PK", and that prefix is exclusive to offensive PSI.
PSI Shield, PSI Counter and PSI Magnet are the only three PSI in which it is required to prefix "PSI"
All other non-offensive PSI may be prefixed with "PSI" except for Shield and Counter.
Most people don't bother doing so with something like "Offense Up" tho.

 

[Pazzo.]

Ness was the VERY FIRST character I got into with Smash Bros after I had unlocked everyone and spent time figuring out how the fighters work. It was a given, since EarthBound is the most life-changing game I had ever played back in the 90s and I had kept it close to heart ever since. I wanted to get good with him so badly just because I actually liked Ness. And I did, I played Ness as my character of choice against fellow students for the entirety of the school year, up until the Melee days.

Disappointed am I in the state of the character, and the attitude people have towards changing him. Technically you could have improved Bowser by just tweaking his stats, but I am the majority would say they are happier with the character they have made out of him. It is honestly disrespectful to discredit what the developers could do with Ness. They can still maintain the core themes of a character and keep him loyal to the source material. Instead of seeing this as you having to get used to some new moves, think of this as something that should have happened a long time ago. Let them change the character. Let's get something that will work when the game ships, and Ness players young and old can get into and play well.

Ness' design was a failure from the beginning. He went from being the best to one of the worst characters during the life span of SSB64. He would maintain his position for every entry since. It's because both the Mother series characters are fundamentally flawed and grow worse and worse as players improve. Ness' strongest normals all depend on his anatomy or pulling out rather tight disjointed hitboxes, and there is only so much they will be willing to distort his tiny body to make it work. As players improve, it is not only easier to keep Ness out of range from doing more than just f-airs, but also easier to attack a character who struggles to defend himself. Even without the grab release shenanigans, Lucas rapidly decayed in power in Brawl, but he still had something going.

Project M made Ness and Lucas much more powerful with immense increases in speed and power. It took very drastic changes to make it work, but it can be done. In a fast-paced environment, a good Lucas can find a way to get on-top of someone and compensate for his little reach. It's not the only way to fix the problem, however. I had similar ideas to what @ TheSkuxxedOne posted. Not only can Ness take the most out of what Lucas had, but the ability to change Special moves means players can choose which variant they liked. That said, I would keep the yo-yo. It help Ness to feel like a Mother series representative, but it is more unique among the cast in general. A combination of more speed and more telekinesis in his attacks can go a long way in helping Ness both deal pressure and fend it off.

These are the changes I would make to his specials:

1. Combine PK Flash and PK Thunder to the B button. PK Flash is now a projectile that launches like PK Thunder did, grows in strength the longer it is in motion, and explodes on release. Detonating it on Ness or hitting him on the bum still works as a recovery option. As an added bonus, let Ness cancel it with R.
2. PK Teleport is now his up special. He runs (even while airborne) in the direction he is facing before fading away, and re-emerges to appear where you direct him to. Just like any other teleport, but with a unique world-wrapping graphic.
3. PSI Magnet can stay, but could use improvements to be useful in more matchups. Perhaps solid projectiles could be vaporized and then absorbed, or it can inherit Lucas's zapping properties. Make it as powerful as a shine, an infinitely better move in 9/10 situations that are not doubles.
   
4. Of course PK Fire would remain as is, but you can switch to Lucas style PK Fire with custom special moves should you wish.

That.. was beautiful. Hopefully we'll get to see some of these ideas with Bamco helping with the balancing.

 

[Skyfox2000]

Am I the only one that likes PK Thunder.