Ness and Lucas aren't screwed now.

[RolandBeoulve]

Touche, because if current predictions are right... well we will hit that chasm when we come to it.

 

[S_B]

Not an infinite, takes skills to do, etc.

What's more, it's specific to Dedede. The opponent knows what they're up against when they fight against a Dedede player. With Ness and Lucas, it's almost the entire cast who can use this to their advantage.

Uh, come again?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dijmBkC3_HE&feature=related

Dedede's is most certainly infinite for 5 characters, and it takes less skill to do than it takes some of these characters to do to Ness/Lucas.

I feel the pain of Ness/Lucas users, but you're not going to win any support by just completely blowing off the infinites used against other characters.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Stages with walls like Shadow Moses Island should be banned. If you ban one or two stages because of some type of wall infinite, it certainly is not the end of the world. There are a lot of stages in this game, so banning one isn't the end of the world. Or banning all of the ones like that. There are still plenty to choose from. This can be more deeply discussed via the stage legality thread. If you ban Shadow Moses, there's still Pokemon Stadium, which has a temporary wall. Stages like Mario Kart Circuit should be banned because of walk-off blastzones. But Castle Siege shouldn't because it's only temporary. Lots and lots of stages to choose from.

 

[Yuna]

I hope over half the cast becomes unusable so a more suitable and proficient metagame evolves.

Games with big casts are broken, games with bad gameplay mechanics are bad. I told everyone Brawl would be bad and broken.

I beat you to it by miles, though. I was one of the first to talk derisively about Brawl... the day after the 1st trailer was released (in, like, May of 2005 or something) because I noticed the game had tons of freeze frames now.

Then the game was released and I was there every step of the way to point out its flaws. I'm just more awesome than you, I guess .

 

[SmashChu]

Because it's a legitimate tactic?

Thats like banning combo's because hitstun prevents them from escaping easily.

But It seems rather broken. It render a lot of the cast useless and others overpowered. Wouldn't it be better to remove it and return to balance.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

But It seems rather broken. It render a lot of the cast useless and others overpowered. Wouldn't it be better to remove it and return to balance.

Personally, I would but I don't pretend to speak for everyone. It's not game breaking enough to make a ban viable. It just lowers them in the tier's and the community moves on.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, since only Marth can use this as a true infinite now (along with Squirtle and Charizard on Ness, but not Lucas), then there's really no reason to ban it. It's no different than how DDD can infinite grab some characters, or jab locking, or laser locking, ect. If those get banned then maybe, but otherwise it's here to stay.

So Marth just completely counters Ness and Lucas. No big deal. It's only one matchup.

 

[Ulevo]

Ulevo, did you test Lucas's chaingrab on lucas/ness?

Yuna, there weren't any permanent walls in melee stages, so banning wall infinites was unnecessary.

Yes I did. I pulled an oops and forgot to add it, but Lucas can't do it to either of them.

 

[SmashChu]

If you can infinite chaingrab with any character, then it's broken. It makes many characters grossly overpowered, others useless and the only ones you'll see are those who can't be chaingrabbed.

It seems pretty broken to me. I say that a chaingrab is more then 3 grabs in a row and anyone who does that is automatically banned from the tournament. We ban stages, why not a technique. That was the flaw of Melee.

 

[LavisFiend]

I still don't see what all the fuss is about.

Just don't n00b up and get grabbed.

/thread.

 

[KonoK]

Well, I guess it's time to learn how not to get grabbed. Why do all of my mains have some kind of serious flaw?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^The fact that Fox and Falco could be chaingrabbed by half the cast in melee did in no way make them unplayable. Many of said chaingrabs had easy finishes that would easily lead to edgeguards, which meant death for them anyway. Fox and Falco players learned the all important saying "don't get grabbed."

If only Marth can do this, and he can only do it on two characters (one of which is not an infinite), then I don't see how it's any different than DDD's chaingrab, Fox's chaingrab, ect.

Wobbling almost never caused any problems and it could be done infinitely on any character. I don't really don't think this will cause that much of a problem, just that Ness and Lucas mains (mostly Ness) will have to find a secondary to deal with Marth. Considering they kind of already had to do that since they had a disadvantage in the matchup to start, this really shouldn't be phazing them anymore

 

[Tyr_03]

lol so basically if you ever fight Ness or Lucas just counterpick Marth and you win. Brawl is such a stupid game for competition. I can't believe I defended it when it first came out. Too bad I'll never have that blissful ignorance back. It's sad that within a few months it's already become this unbalanced and broken. Oh well. Back to Melee.

And to a few posts that came up before this one, not getting grabbed in Brawl is far different from not getting grabbed in Melee. Defensive game has been buffed way too much. Saying don't get grabbed is like saying "never approach" because of the complete lack of shield stun. Just turns the game into even more campy nonsense than it already was.

Also most chaingrabs in Melee were difficult for the chaingrabber to pull off and could be escaped by using DI to fool your opponent as well as a few other things depending on the percentage. Marth's infinite grab on Ness and Lucas are inescapable and takes all the skill of pressing Z repeatedly so you have no chance of escape. Wobbling could be avoided by killing Nana and was balanced out by the IC's inferior recovery options as well as difficult learning curve. Dedede's chaingrab ends when you reach the end of levels and as far as I know, wall stages are banned in most tournaments to prevent it from being infinite. Dedede's infinite chainthrow therefore is only truly infinite on Bowser from 0%. The others have to already have some damage or it's escapable after a certain time.

 

[fkacyan]

I never saw a Ness or Lucas in any of the tourneys I was in, so it's really not that big of a deal to me.

 

[TheManaLord]

I beat you to it by miles, though. I was one of the first to talk derisively about Brawl... the day after the 1st trailer was released (in, like, May of 2005 or something) because I noticed the game had tons of freeze frames now.

Then the game was released and I was there every step of the way to point out its flaws. I'm just more awesome than you, I guess .

You did, you did. I was simply a skeptic after the first video release teaser, I actually started being pessimistic after the first very limited gameplay demo, the E For All I knew for sure this game was bad.

But we share common principles, so I'll be a nice guy and give you the title of grandmaster anti-brawl, since you certainly do the most work around here shutting brawl noobs up

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^DDD's infinite chainthrow is not damage dependant, becauase the distance sent by his down throw is not damage dependant. It still suffers from move deterioration (which means it has less stun if you use it over and over), but this can be counteracted by doing grab attacks.

And I don't see why this would be in any different situation than his chainthrow anyway. Marth's infinite only works on Ness, and on Lucas it's only a chaingrab because he pushes him foward when he dash grabs. DDD on the other hand can infinite chainthrow Bowser, Donkey Kong, Samus, Luigi, and Mario. He can also chaingrab Lucas, Pit, Iceclimbers, Diddy Kong, Ganondorf, Ness, Toon Link, Ivysuar, Ike, Captain Falcon, Snake, Peach, Wario, Rob, Lucario, Wolf, Link, and Charizard (I believe Sonic and Marth can escape with their up Bs, but it may have just been the DDD players messing up).

To me, that seems a lot worse than Marth's little infinite grab on one character and chaingrab on one other character, and yet people still have a major problem with this?

 

[S_B]

Folks...

Infinite grab =/ chain grab

Chain grabs END. They always end.

INFINITE grabs, as the name implies, DO...NOT...END.

Dedede has an infinite grab on 5 different characters: he can hit grab them and kill them and, unless he screws up the timing, nothing can stop him.

Marth has an infinite on Ness which is unstoppable. Once grabbed, he can kill Ness and nothing can stop him.

Falco has a CHAIN GRAB. Once grabbed, he can hit players up to around 40% damage, but that's the end of it.

We need to keep this distinction clear. A chain grab is no big deal, and infinite grab IS.

And please, don't say "Just don't get grabbed" because you'll be playing against a player who is doing nothing but trying to grab you so they can infinite grab you to death.

 

[Anth0ny]

Hooray for Marth mains!

 

[BEES]

DeDeDe's chainthrow has not caused him to dominate most of his matchups, since most characters are not susceptible to an infinite. Generally, he gets as good as he gives.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

GOOD.

It still sucks that this can be done but it's not as bad as it first seemed.

 

[Crooked Crow]

this is the worst thing since lucario
ban plz

 

[RolandBeoulve]

this is the worst thing since lucario
ban plz

Yes you badmouth Lucario and only feel safe because you live in Canada...

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Chaingrabs (like Dedede's on all the characters he could do it to except 5) only work for about 3-4 throws, then he'll reach the end of the stage, and you'll be able to do something again. The infinites actually are infinite, as in you can do it to 999% as long as you don't **** it up, no matter what your opponent does.

 

[Wunpee]

Hold up when you escape, it'll pop up ness and lucas.

 

[Timotee]

Hold up when you escape, it'll pop up ness and lucas.

I had to quote this for the sake of comedy.

 

[Shibby]

this is the worst thing since lucario
ban plz

Got a good laugh.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Chaingrabs (like Dedede's on all the characters he could do it to except 5) only work for about 3-4 throws, then he'll reach the end of the stage, and you'll be able to do something again. The infinites actually are infinite, as in you can do it to 999% as long as you don't **** it up, no matter what your opponent does.

Yeah so? The concept of infinites is not new in fighting games. And if we ban this we'd better ban jab locking and laser locking too, as those rack up insane damage as well with jab locking being easily chainable into a kill move and laser locking being preformed from a distance.

Not to mention that it only works with Marth, Squirtle, and Charizard, and only against Ness. OMG this is so broken in two whole matchups and makes Ness completely unplayable!!!! Or it means that Ness should just use a secondary (which he already should have a anyway as Marth utterly ***** him even without the infinite).

 

[Tristan_win]

I'm against banning it as we already have inescapable chain grabs, why banned this one?

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Yeah so? The concept of infinites is not new in fighting games. And if we ban this we'd better ban jab locking and laser locking too, as those rack up insane damage as well with jab locking being easily chainable into a kill move and laser locking being preformed from a distance.

Not to mention that it only works with Marth, Squirtle, and Charizard, and only against Ness. OMG this is so broken in two whole matchups and makes Ness completely unplayable!!!! Or it means that Ness should just use a secondary (which he already should have a anyway as Marth utterly ***** him even without the infinite).

You can avoid being jab locked just by playing well. Most competitive players will tech before they hit the ground from a slamming attack. However, you're overestimating yourself if you think you can go an entire match without being grabbed.

Anyway, *notices the topic title has been changed* I see some hope has popped up, but it's still a bleak situation. We'll just have to see how it works from here on.

 

[Tyr_03]

To Sonic Wave and others. The "infinite" chaingrabs on characters like Samus, Luigi and I forget who else are only infinite if it starts at a certain perecentage because of move deterioration. You need to do grab attacks to reset it and if you try to infinite the chaingrab at 0% for instance you can't do enough grab attacks to reset it because they escape before you have the chance. Just clearing that up.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
above post refered to Dedede's chaingrab. sorry

 

[AlexX]

To Sonic Wave and others. The "infinite" chaingrabs on characters like Samus, Luigi and I forget who else are only infinite if it starts at a certain perecentage because of move deterioration. You need to do grab attacks to reset it and if you try to infinite the chaingrab at 0% for instance you can't do enough grab attacks to reset it because they escape before you have the chance. Just clearing that up.

Actually, it seems as long as Dedede uses his headbutt move while holding the opponent twice before throwing, it won't deteriorate fast enough to prevent him from continuously doing it (although the drawback is that the opponent gets the chance to try and escape while you're smacking them).

 

[fallenangemon0]

...and off a bridge.

Hahhah!!! XD quoted for ROFLz.


And what the **** is wrong with everyone? Does everyone here only use one character XD ?

The uber small amount of characters who can do this is...well...uber small. This wont be banned, and as Yuna said, You cant just ban everything in plain sight. Certain character have Infinites but so far most of them are not easy to do and using them to stall IS banned.


I feel it should stay that way.

Used to Stall = D.Q.
Used to K.O.= Not banned.

Oh and as previously mentioned every one saying that you should just not get grabbed should just bash their skull into a rock

 

[thesage]

Anyway, *notices the topic title has been changed* I see some hope has popped up, but it's still a bleak situation. We'll just have to see how it works from here on.

Well it's just Marth and PT. Big deal. >_>;

 

[BZZL]

Until the post mentioning you can DI away from almost all those characters, I was really worried. I was able to get out of Melee chaingrabs like Marth and Sheik, and needless to say, many Brawl "chaingrabs," but this particular one I couldn't figure out.

But with only Marth and PT being able to truly infinite Ness, and only Marth on Lucas, I don't really think it should have to be banned. Kinda sucks since I'm able to take Marths out with my Ness, but it just means I need an alt for one or two bad matchups.

 

[orintemple]

Wow this is really great news. I can actually play Ness now. YAY! Marth is gonna be a pain because he is a popular character but there is like 6 people on earth who main PT so that shouldn't be too bad.

 

[Free ZKO]

I don't like people saying this somehow makes Brawl a game that isn't competitive. Even if Ness and Lucas join Ganondorf in the not-appropriate-for-tourneys list (still fine for friendlies), Brawl's roster of viable characters is still larger than Melee's. And Melee had a pretty big roster of tourney viable characters for a fighter.

 

[Sinistar]

Pro ban-o.

For one thing, it's broken and it's going to make a total noob playing in tournaments to win his first against a pro Ness/Lucas player.

Is that supposed to be fair?

 

[orintemple]

I don't like people saying this somehow makes Brawl a game that isn't competitive. Even if Ness and Lucas join Ganondorf in the not-appropriate-for-tourneys list (still fine for friendlies), Brawl's roster of viable characters is still larger than Melee's. And Melee had a pretty big roster of tourney viable characters for a fighter.

That is not why the game is uncompetitive. I would explain it to you, but there are about a billion threads already discussing this.

Pro ban-o.

For one thing, it's broken and it's going to make a total noob playing in tournaments to win his first against a pro Ness/Lucas player.

Is that supposed to be fair?

A pro would never get beat by a noob even with an infinite grab, a pro would just destroy a noob before he could even attack.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

If it's a real pro, he'd either humiliate the poor noob, or change characters if he's really concerned about it.